BOO!

[netrix]

What's going on in Pattaya on Halloween? I arrive Oct. 31.

[jinks]

All notified events are in our calendar :idea:

[netrix]

gee thanks jinks. ummm
maybe you could direct me (and others as clueless as i)
to this calendar. you could have at least included a link
with your sarcasm.

never ceases to amaze me how this forum including
its moderators would rather be caustic and abrasive
than helpful or friendly.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Nothing on the calendar for 31 Oct other that it being Halloween.

[Marsilius]

So I guess that means that they haven't been notified of anything, then...

I dont like the calendar feature......but if you click it then the date - halloween - some info will appear. Posters etc.

[TrongpaiExpat]

You can just just update your location in your profile and it will appear in every post. If your looking to meet up with poster you can put that on your profile page as well.

I don't get those who leave the location blank and I really don't get those who attempt to be funny with the location entry.

[netrix]

thanks oogs and trongpai.

i've spent previous halloweens in new orleans (INSANE),
honolulu, las vegas, sydney.... and i've had some fun
times. just wondering what pattaya's like for the spooky
holiday.

i've never met a thai boy who's not afraid of ghosts.
do they get into the holiday, costumes, etc?

anyone have plans for some, ahem, trick or treating?

anyone have plans for some, ahem, trick or treating?I believe we've had this discussion before. Halloween the American way is just that - an American celebration. I've been in many places on October 31 but I've only ever noticed anything remarkable when in America. I've been in America several times in mid-to-late November and always have a quiet chuckle to myself when ignorant Americans (ie. every single one of them) ask what we do in England for Thanksgiving

[netrix]

yea...see? that's why i don't usually list my location
in my profile. i just open myself up to assault from
the obviously superior.

acually halloween has roots in ireland and is definitely
celebrated in australia and japan. i know because i've
been there.

as for celebrating western holidays in thailand, it was
interesting to me on my last visit that in thailand many
of the boys who can't speak english can sing christmas
carols in english. when i asked where they learned them
they said "in school."

the usa is so politically correct these days it's not popular
to say "merry christmas" during the holidays. in thailand,
i heard it quite often. signs, greetings, music playing in
the malls....

i would bet a lot of baht that halloween is celebrated in
boyztown and in soi 4. and i can guess that the boys
probably really get into it.

anyone have any experience?

acually halloween has roots in ireland and is definitely celebrated in australia and japan. i know because i've been there.I will be in Australia on October 31 so I'll be happy to confirm how many knocks on the door I get for trick or treat :bounce:
i would bet a lot of baht that halloween is celebrated in boyztown and in soi 4. So would I - Xmas isn't a Thai celebration either, but the bar owners know how to turn a penny from gullible tourists here, just as they do the world over

[netrix]

i found this video of the Thai festival Phi Ta Khon,
called the Thai Halloween. It's in June/July. Looks
pretty fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RZ1ciV12ug

[netrix]

a funny clip from a thai movie. a cute boy scared out
of his pants by a ghost. halloween might be pretty
fun this year :bounce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulu0q46KSl8

Netflix I am an American and I was in Australia last year at Halloween time for work. I recall having dinner with an Australian family on the day. It was not mentioned, kids were not dressed up, no knock on the door nothing. I asked a fellow American in the office the next day and he told me its no big deal in Australia, maybe a few theme bars. Where did you go to find Halloween?

[netrix]

Netflix I am an American and I was in Australia last year at Halloween time for work. I recall having dinner with an Australian family on the day. It was not mentioned, kids were not dressed up, no knock on the door nothing. I asked a fellow American in the office the next day and he told me its no big deal in Australia, maybe a few theme bars. Where did you go to find Halloween?

i was in sydney. at some clubs. arq i think it was called and the phoenix. plenty of people out in costumes partying, as i expect bkk will have its share of freakish fun that night too.

[netrix]

Clearly you have zero understanding of Thai culture.

clearly. none.

"Thais love to celebrate holidays so much that they adopt western
festivals like Halloween with gusto, even using the contraction
"ween" as slang for scary. "
Silom Soi 4 party announcement (http://studenttravel.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=studenttravel&cdn=travel&tm=20&gps=525_580_1264_832&f=10&su=p284.9.336.ip_p531.50.336.ip_&tt=29&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.whatsonwhen.com/sisp/index.htm%3Ffx%3Devent%26event_id%3D62700)

"One might think that Halloween is an "USA only" event. It is getting
more popular in Europe in the last years, but Asia? At least in Thailand,
Halloween cannot be missed anymore, especially in Bangkok where
everybody is anticipating the last October week every year."
Halloween in Bangkok (http://www.excelloz.com/Travel_guide/Bangkok/Halloween_in_Bangkok.html)

"If you've never been to Bangkok, Thailand, you'd probably be surprised
to learn that a lot of people actually do celebrate Halloween here.
Thailand is a Buddhist country but Bangkok has a sizeable expat
community, many of whom celebrate Halloween. There are also a lot of
Thais who celebrate Halloween , regardless of being Buddhist, as Thais
love nothing more than having fun and Halloween is certainly fun."
Where to Celebrate Halloween in Bangkok, Thailand (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1111092/where_to_celebrate_halloween_in_bangkok.html?cat=1 6)

I was just asking if anyone is planning on joining in on the fun
that will inevitably be happening in Pattaya. Nobody has anything
fun or entertaining to say?

[edited to correct link above]

I was just asking if anyone is planning on joining in on the fun that will inevitably be happening in Pattaya. Nobody has anything fun or entertaining to say?All you are doing netflix is to confirm what everyone who has posted against you has said. Halloween is an American celebration that has been exported in a half hearted way to the rest of the world. If you are so childish (as your avatar suggests) that you have to go running after that sort of thing and expect everyone else to join in you are the worst sort of Ugly American which is a label some of us Americans who work abroad have to put up with all the time.

[netrix]

I was just asking if anyone is planning on joining in on the fun that will inevitably be happening in Pattaya. Nobody has anythingfun or entertaining to say?

All you are doing netflix is to confirm what everyone who has posted against you has said. Halloween is an American celebration that has been exported in a half hearted way to the rest of the world. If you are so childish (as your avatar suggests) that you have to go running after that sort of thing and expect everyone else to join in you are the worst sort of Ugly American which is a label some of us Americans who work abroad have to put up with all the time.

dude, relax! who crawled up your ass and died?

i'm an ugly american? (actually i'm quite good looking, thank you
very much!) but you say that because i asked if anyone knew of
anything happening on halloween? are you even in thailand?
or will you be on halloween? or have you ever been? if not, then
there isn't much for you to say is there?

and i'm sure i'm the only one on this board with a "childish avatar."
weird how some people pick their enemies. so un-buddhist of you.

lighten up!

All you are doing netflix is to confirm what everyone who has posted against you has said. Halloween is an American celebration that has been exported in a half hearted way to the rest of the world. If you are so childish (as your avatar suggests) that you have to go running after that sort of thing and expect everyone else to join in you are the worst sort of Ugly American which is a label some of us Americans who work abroad have to put up with all the time.

Perhaps your might also post your criticisms about those who celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas abroad.

Perhaps the ugliest of American traits, which isn't just isolated to Americans, is the intolerance, indifference and the superiority complex that some of those living abroad carry with them.

The only thing I've ever seen in any of Netflix's posts is curiosity and a willingness to have a good time where he's been and where he's going, and he seems to like Halloween.

What did he write that would attract such animosity? Nothing, so I can only conclude that it's your issue, not his.

[quote="netrixi'm an ugly american? (actually i'm quite good looking, thank youvery much!) [/quote]That just confirms my point - you don't even know what the phrase Ugly American means. Try looking it up in Wikipedia - and that includes you too meinhell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American

[netrix]

he can't be serious, can he?? wow! haha

which one of us is being "loud, arrogant, demeaning?"

Pattaya Players (home of Pattaya's Professional Amateurs) is proud to announce its first annual Halloween Haunted Ghost Tour entitled, "Path Of Phantoms, Poltergeists and Pagans" on Friday, October 31, 2008. This chillingly haunting script was written by a local Pattaya resident, who will also direct the production. The "Path Of Phantoms, Poltergeists and Pagans" takes unsuspecting spectators on a 40 minute guided walking tour of Horseshoe PointтАЩs breathtaking Three Kingdoms Park, highlighting ghost stories of ThailandтАЩs historical past. At each stop, the macabre Tour Guides will retell the legends of ghostly visitations and other scary tales of infamous poltergeists and haunted happenings, while the Pattaya Players troupe members portray the sinister spectres!

In addition to the Ghost Tour, there will be many activities, rides and games for children of all ages to enjoy! If being scared is not your thing, come and enjoy a myriad of traditional Halloween games and fun carnival rides! There will be Pony Rides, Aqua Bubbles, A Jumpy Castle and Bobbing For Apples among many, many others! In addition, fair-style food and drinks will be on sale all night long courtesy of Horseshoe PointтАЩs delectable catering services!

Experience the thrills that are sure to come during this exclusive one night only event. Taking place from 6:00 PM onwards, tickets will be sold at the event (on the night of) only. The admission price will be 200 Baht per person and will come with 10 complimentary tickets. Each attraction, game and ride will require a set amount of tickets, depending on the activity. The tour itself will require the entire 10 tickets. Additional tickets will also be available for purchase in multiple packs -- with greater discounts being offered on larger тАЬfamily fun packs.тАЭ. For specific details, please visit our website at www.pattayaplayers.org (http://www.pattayaplayers.org).

The Pattaya Players still continue to seek corporate and private sponsors to help offset their current set-up costs. Please consider joining 2008 current sponsors: AA Insurance Brokers, Bangkok Pattaya Hospital, The Cavanaugh Community Center, Chevrolet, Indian By Nature, LCIT, Rabbit Resort, Horseshoe Point, Casa Pascal, The Sleep Factory, St. Andrews International School, Steps & Rhythm Dance Academy, The Pattaya City Expats Club, SPICE! Magazine and Pattaya Mail in helping the Pattaya Players to become the premier creative arts organization in Pattaya! In addition, personal memberships are also be available to any interested party. The cost of a single membership is 500 Baht for adults and 250 Baht for students. Included in the membership will be a bimonthly e-newsletter future opportunities for "professional amateur training courses and seminars" and invitations to Pattaya Player's exclusive "Social Evenings." More information can be found at www.pattayaplayers.org (http://www.pattayaplayers.org).

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn287/pattayapassion/ghosttourposter-1.jpg

acually halloween has roots in ireland and is definitely
celebrated in australia and japan.

halloween is only 'celebrated' in Australia by kids who have been indoctrinated by American TV. When I was a kid, before American culture was rammed down our throats via TV and movies, I had never heard of halloween or thanksgiving.

Perhaps your might also post your criticisms about those who celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas abroad.As I'm not an American, perhaps I may be permitted to express my criticisms. "Thanksgiving" is simply the Old World's Harvest Festival at a US date; why the rest of us should celebrate it at a time of the Americans' choosing beats me. I suppose a rendition by George of "All Things Bright and Beautiful" at some Pattaya watering hole may be in order? As for Xmas - what exactly is it you want to celebrate? The US shopping festival, known here in Thailand as Melly Kisma? The Thais certainly don't celebrate it, as such; the gift-giving day is New year (like the Scots). However all the worst excesses of the Western Xmas are on display including ghastly saccharine songs in shopping malls morning, noon and night. The Thais see it, quite naturally, as an amalgam of another meaningless (to them) opportunity to milk the Westerners and something that shows how worldly (and therefore sophisticated) they are by emulating Western events. Many know it to be a Christian "Buddha Day". I've even had Thai boys tell me the name of the Christian Buddha - it's "Santa Claw" in case you didn't know. Now there's piece of Coca Cola imperialism (as my socialist chum Lunchtime O'Booze calls it) of which we can all be proud :bounce:

I am a big believer in making your own entertainment.
One of my favourite things to do on Halloween is to dress as the grim reaper (complete with scythe) and visit various old folks homes, tapping on the window and pointing/beckoning to the inmates! One year I racked up 7 heart attacks and 4 strokes!
Doris O' Booze is currently residing in the shady pines rest home in North Pattaya, but I guess she's so used to seeing things that she wouldn't notice.

Halloween has been celebrated throughout the British Isles since the time of the Druids, but in Britain it got surplanted by Guy Fawkes night on 5 November. Expensive to have two celebrations in one week, and burning catholics was obviously considered more fun.

Halloween has been celebrated throughout the British Isles since the time of the Druids, but in Britain it got surplanted by Guy Fawkes night on 5 November. Expensive to have two celebrations in one week, and burning catholics was obviously considered more fun.A more considered view - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4408078.stm
A view that asserts Homesick's theory doesn't hold water - http://www.thegavel.net/1199eph.html - and I'm reminded of a poster's assertion yesterday (topjohn5) that he'd seen a plausible explanation of something or other - presumably it was therefore true. Homesick's explanation is certainly plausible

Being brought up in an English Methodist Mission/ Scottish Presbyterian Kirk family in a Scottish suburb with Irish Catholics in the semi and militant Scottish Catholics across the road, and most of the street attendees of the local Kirk, All Hallows Eve and Guy Fawkes Night were cultural minefields. After much persuasion Methodist mum allowed my sister and I to go guising (to scare away the ghosts on Hallow e'en) provided all monies were to go to a suitable charity. Naturally, I dressed in long boots, wide belt with a curtain ring over the ear, three corner hat and crutch. Couldn't find a parrot. Lantern was made from a scooped out turnip.

The militant Catholics across the road were outraged that we were collecting for charity unlicensed and dragged us back to check with my mum. I wonder if their priests, described by the Irish Catholics as "worse than the tally man", had a license to collect for good causes. One of the Presbyterian neighbours opined there were no ghosts in Scotland only spirits.

"Naw, ah widnae like a wee dram. Ah'm only ten an' ma mither's a Methodist" sez I.

If I'd have been older I'd have replied the absence of ghosts was because of us guisers.

In those days you were never asked for "a penny for the guy" in Scotland, I think because guising was so close. It was always a problem finding a suitable site for the bonfire as responsible adults were too thick on the ground and always saw some problem in having a large fire next to their dwelling.

The idea that Hallowe'en is an American import is misguided. Perhaps they mean the commercialisation of Hallowe'en. Do ASDA/Walmart do ready needled Mars bars yet? Less innocent days.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

What's going on in Pattaya on Halloween? I arrive Oct. 31.

you could always go to Homintern's condo-it's like Halloween every night.

[Brad the Impala]

What's going on in Pattaya on Halloween? I arrive Oct. 31.

you could always go to Homintern's condo-it's like Halloween every night.

Except the witches are cuter and it's not broomsticks they sit on!

[jimnbkk]

In my humble opinion, the reason we celebrate American or British or even Thai holidays so enthusiastically in Pattaya is because it's so fcuking boring the rest of the time. What do you do? Go to the beach all day, take a nap, eat dinner, then hit the bars. Not so bad for a while, but it gets old very fast, not to mention expensive if you take a companion from a bar very often. So, a happy occasion like Halloween is a good excuse for a change in activity. Costumes are a challenge, but still fun. Thanksgiving is a chance for those of us who usually eat Thai food to pig out on a traditional American meal. Christmas is a chance for our bs to get a special present from us. And, the British holidays are a really good excuse to drink urself stupid.

So, bravo for the bar owners that put on a party, and bravo especially for the Pattaya Players for their efforts!

In my humble opinion, the reason we celebrate American or British or even Thai holidays so enthusiastically in Pattaya is because it's so fcuking boring the rest of the time. What do you do? Go to the beach all day, take a nap, eat dinner, then hit the bars. Not so bad for a while, but it gets old very fast, not to mention expensive if you take a companion from a bar very often.And there are still people who think I'm unusual for not wanting to go to Pattaya! Thank you jimnbkk and catawampuscat for truth-telling about Pattaya

.. I've lived near Bangkok for a very ling time ...

http://www.brazilyellowpages.com/store/images/w-BTZ084_Monkey.jpg

.. I've lived near Bangkok for a very ling time ...You haven't been keep up, padlom. fattman believes he has an unfettered entitlement to use the English language to mean anything he wants it to mean. Ah, that's it. fattman is Humpty Dumpty (same shape, presumably)
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
http://www.sundials.org/about/humpty.htm

Halloween has been celebrated throughout the British Isles since the time of the Druids, but in Britain it got surplanted by Guy Fawkes night on 5 November. Expensive to have two celebrations in one week, and burning catholics was obviously considered more fun.A more considered view - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4408078.stm
A view that asserts Homesick's theory doesn't hold water - http://www.thegavel.net/1199eph.html - and I'm reminded of a poster's assertion yesterday (topjohn5) that he'd seen a plausible explanation of something or other - presumably it was therefore true. Homesick's explanation is certainly plausible

Aside from my inability to spell supplanted, my theory is consistent with what the thegavel article says. I never suggested the two celebrations were the same - my second sentence refers to two celebrations, not one. However, if the article writer is correct, then Halloween is now starting to supplanting Guy Fawkes because of health and satefy laws on the sale of fireworks.

Surprised the writer of the article doesn't understand why Guy Fawkes is burned. It is because the catholics, notably under Mary, burned protestants. Burning Guy is a symbolic revenge. It's not only in the 17th century that the Pope was burned as well as/instead of Guy Fawkes. It still happens in the town of Lewes in Sussex - while a large crowd of onlookers chant "burn the pope, burn the pope". However, they also burn Prime Ministers and American Presidents, so everyone's bogey-man gets a fair turn. I got to witness the double burning of Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. It was a magnificent sight.

I got to witness the double burning of Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. It was a magnificent sight.I assume in the spirit of equal opportunity you'd also be cheering as they burn effigies of homosexuals (which is the origin of the term "faggots" being applied to gay people). While burning effigies may be satisfying to the emotionally stunted, it's not something a liberal society should be encouraging

I got to witness the double burning of Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. It was a magnificent sight.I assume in the spirit of equal opportunity you'd also be cheering as they burn effigies of homosexuals (which is the origin of the term "faggots" being applied to gay people). While burning effigies may be satisfying to the emotionally stunted, it's not something a liberal society should be encouraging

Odd that someone who formerly called himself The Colonel should be pushing an extreme pacifist line - or do your emotions require real violence rather than displaced violence?

In any case, it is the symbolic burning of catholics which has more in common with the burning of homosexuals (ironic as this may seem), since it is indiscriminate. Thatcher and Reagan were hated for what they did - like killing lots of real Argentines over a scrap of land in the South Atlantic. The bonfire club which burned effigies of Thatcher and Reagan (actually, they exploded) was trying to move the event away from its anti-catholic roots and turn it into a political protest.

I'm sorry if my comment about burning catholics was unclear. I should have known better. Someone on this board is forever telling us how few people here can get irony.

I'm sorry if my comment about burning catholics was unclear. No, I got that. Obviously you don't know too many army officers who haven't earned their medals sitting on their arse. Fighting solves nothing, and I am ardent democrat and small "l" liberal. Burning an effigy of anyone is abhorrent, whatever one may think of their political actions

I'm sorry if my comment about burning catholics was unclear. No, I got that. Obviously you don't know too many army officers who haven't earned their medals sitting on their arse. Fighting solves nothing, and I am ardent democrat and small "l" liberal. Burning an effigy of anyone is abhorrent, whatever one may think of their political actions

Couldn't quite get my mind round all the negatives in your second sentence (genuine confusion, not irony) but assume from what follows that you mean many army officers never actually hurt anyone. If so, then yes, this is true. But, simply by joining the armed forces, you willingly undertake to kill people at someone else's behest, regardless of whether you think it is right or justified. And the morality of the decision to join is not affected by whether you end up killing anyone or not.

Of course, some people will take the view that decsions on whether to start wars are beyond their ability to judge; that they trust the decisions made by their Government; and that it is therefore their patriotic duty to fight those their Government tells them to. But how does an intelligent liberal (small l) take such a view? I've met a great many army officers, who have earned their medals in all sorts of ways, but they were all either stupid or illiberal (and sometimes both). And I'm not accusing you of being either.

As to burning effigies - well, I see your point. Maybe I even agree to some extent. But when Maggie Thatcher's head exploded, I cheered with everyone else. Similarly violent endings occurred to the puppets in many Spitting Image episodes. Do you object to that too? What about violence in satirical cartoons, books? How far do you take this?

... simply by joining the armed forces, you willingly undertake to kill people at someone else's behest, regardless of whether you think it is right or justified.

Not correct. According to the Laws of Armed Conflict obeying orders which you know or consider to be unjustified or illegal, simply because they are orders, is not a defense nor is it required under Military Law - it was not at Nuremberg, or in a number of later cases, nor is it now.

A number of serving and retired members of the British Armed Forces have refused to serve in Iraq on these grounds. All, as far as I am aware, volunteered to serve in Afghanistan (which is considerably more dangerous); no official disciplinary action was taken against any of them, although obviously it meant an effective end to the careers of those still serving and could have had far more serious consequences for any of them. None, again as far as I am aware, have spoken out about this out of respect for those still serving in Iraq.


I've met a great many army officers, who have earned their medals in all sorts of ways, but they were all either stupid or illiberal (and sometimes both).

If you are saying that all the "great many army officers" you have met have been either "stupid or illiberal" (by the latter you presumably mean intolerant, bigoted, narrow-minded, etc), without exception, I am curious as to what circmstances you met them under and what their miltary backgrounds were.


Thatcher and Reagan were hated for what they did - like killing lots of real Argentines over a scrap of land in the South Atlantic. The bonfire club which burned effigies of Thatcher and Reagan (actually, they exploded) was trying to move the event away from its anti-catholic roots and turn it into a political protest.

This is totally incorrect and a total mischaracterisation of the aims of the Lewes Bonfire Council and, more particularly, the Cliffe Bonfire Society. The effigies of Thatcher and Reagan were burnt in 1980 and 1981 (the Falklands War was in 1982), while in 1982 an effigy representing "Argentines" was burnt.





And I'm not accusing you of being either.

As Homi was not a Colonel, except possibly in his dreams, any such accusation would be pointless.

Couldn't quite get my mind round all the negatives in your second sentence (genuine confusion, not irony) but assume from what follows that you mean many army officers never actually hurt anyone. Absolutely not. Almost everyone who's ever fought knows the folly of war

None of this has anything to do with ... Once again a few have sabotaged the thread

As usual, Gone Fishing 'answers' points of his own invention rather than the ones actually made.

If you join the armed forces you cannot choose which wars you are willing to fight. If you refuse to fight you can be imprisoned. The military may not always choose to do so, just as civilian authorities do not always prosecute when a crime is comitted. The fact remains, when you sign up for the military, you sign up for all wars, not just the ones you approve of. The stuff about not being obliged to follow illegal orders is irrelevant. I never suggested military personel were obliged to do so.

Surprisingly enough, when I say illiberal, I mean illiberal. Some illiberal people are narrow minded, bigotted etc, some are not. I dare say the American online dictionary you use offers these words as synonyms, but the definition of illiberal is, according to Collins, someone or something which does not allow or approve of much freedom or choice of action.

You are, no doubt, more expert than me about the illiberal antics of the Cliffe Bonfire Society. I accurately described the position of some members of the society in 1980 (or 81), and it would appear they won out that year, but didn't in 1982. I only attended the once. Much as I enjoyed seeing Thatcher explode, I found the pockets of genuine anti-catholicism rather disturbing. Also, I didn't say that the effigies of Thatcher and Reagan were burnt because of the Falklands war, but because they were hated on account of their policies. Quite happy to accept your dates showing that the use of this particular policy as an example of what people hated was anachronistic. Don't see how it affects the basic point, though. Do you really think Thatcher was loved in 1981? As I remember it, her ratings improved after the Falkland war - from a very low level. I met her once. As an individual, she was perfectly nice. I've never had the slightest desire to see her hurt - only her policies.

As an individual, she was perfectly nice. I've never had the slightest desire to see her hurt - only her policies.I don't see much a difference between burning an effigy and sticking pins in a doll - the latter is definitely intended to hurt the person

As an individual, she was perfectly nice. I've never had the slightest desire to see her hurt - only her policies.I don't see much a difference between burning an effigy and sticking pins in a doll - the latter is definitely intended to hurt the person

As you say, the latter is intended to hurt the person.

As usual, Gone Fishing 'answers' points of his own invention rather than the ones actually made.

You obviously spent as little time reading your own post as you did mine. These are not "points of (my) own invention", but points specifically made by you, which I quoted, which are totally incorrect.


If you join the armed forces you cannot choose which wars you are willing to fight. If you refuse to fight you can be imprisoned....
The fact remains, when you sign up for the military, you sign up for all wars, not just the ones you approve of. The stuff about not being obliged to follow illegal orders is irrelevant. I never suggested military personel were obliged to do so.

Not correct, for the reasons I have explained; if the order or the war is illegal or unjustified any British soldier is not only entitled but required to refuse to obey the order, and under British law they cannot be imprisoned or penalised for it (if it is found to be illegal). Every soldier is required to be fully briefed on this, as well as other aspects of the Laws of Armed Conflict, every year. Far from being "irrelevant", the "stuff about not being obliged to follow illegal orders" is exactly why "when you sign up for the military, you" do not "sign up for all wars" - if the war is illegal, so are any and all orders connected with it.


Surprisingly enough, when I say illiberal, I mean illiberal. ..... the definition of illiberal is someone or something which does not allow or approve of much freedom or choice of action.

So you are saying that you have "met a great many army officers" who "were all either stupid or (did) not allow or approve of much freedom or choice of action (and sometimes both)". I find this hard to believe. Of the three retired British Army officers I know of living in Pattaya, for example, (two genuine Colonels and an officer from the Parachute Regiment who served in the Falklands) it would be difficult to describe any as stupid: one is a member of Mensa, one joined as a private soldier and was promoted through the ranks, and one regularly wins the Oscar's / La Cage quiz when competing solo against 4 or 5 man teams - hardly Mastermind, but it is all comparative. All make no secret of being gay and are at least as liberal (as in approving of freedom and choice) as those in any other mainstream profession.

While I would agree that "the military", as an organisation, "does not allow or approve of much freedom or choice of action", for what should be fairly obvious reasons to most people, this applies no more to individuals within it than to those in any similar organisation - often less so.


You are, no doubt, more expert than me about the illiberal antics of the Cliffe Bonfire Society.... Also, I didn't say that the effigies of Thatcher and Reagan were burnt because of the Falklands war, but because they were hated on account of their policies.

Not an expert at all - I simply checked their programme and found their report of events to be very different from yours; and you actually did say "Thatcher and Reagan were hated for what they did - like killing lots of real Argentines over a scrap of land in the South Atlantic."


Don't see how it affects the basic point, though.

The "basic point" is that what you claim to be "fact" about the Armed Forces and its members and what they "sign up for" is totally incorrect, as anyone bored enough to check the Laws of Armed Conflict / the Laws of War can verify.



(Smiles, if you are stupid enough to waste your time reading this, my apologies as always for the "bite-size" style)

Won't waste the board space quoting Gone Flashing's quote of himself quoting himself. Won't waste my time replying to him either.

acually halloween has roots in ireland and is definitely celebrated in australia and japan. i know because i've been there.I will be in Australia on October 31 so I'll be happy to confirm how many knocks on the door I get for trick or treat :bounce: As promised, here's the update. There was a children's Halloween party in the public BBQ area of the apartment complex where I'm staying. I enquired assiduously of its provenance and found it was in fact a birthday party with a Halloween theme - given by some Americans for one of their offspring. No-one knocked on the door for trick or treat, except a rent boy I'd ordered up - he was doing a trick and he was my treat. Thankfully prostitution is legal in Australia, so our Australian friends (including dear Aunty) won't have to worry about this new law the Americans are proposing that will lock up their citizens who go abroad and pay for sex

[neddy3]

No-one knocked on the door for trick or treat, except a rent boy I'd ordered up - he was doing a trick and he was my treat. Thankfully prostitution is legal in Australia,

Well, in some states, maybe yes, but not as universally legal as implied here.

No-one knocked on the door for trick or treat, except a rent boy I'd ordered up - he was doing a trick and he was my treat. Thankfully prostitution is legal in Australia,Well, in some states, maybe yes, but not as universally legal as implied here.You mean there are places other than Sydney or Melbourne? Why would you bother? I suppose for the sake of the intrepid member among us who might venture among the locals, perhaps you could enlighten everyone about the places where prostitution is illegal? I checked Wikipedia - legal in some form or another everywhere except South Australia and, as I say, why would you bother going there?

[neddy3]

You mean there are places other than Sydney or Melbourne? Why would you bother? I suppose for the sake of the intrepid member among us who might venture among the locals, perhaps you could enlighten everyone about the places where prostitution is illegal? I checked Wikipedia - legal in some form or another everywhere except South Australia and, as I say, why would you bother going there?

Sadly, some of us have to be in such backward places at times.
Given that your view of Australia is now described as comprising merely two cities, I understand your original comment re legality.

Given that your view of Australia is now described as comprising merely two cities, I understand your original comment re legality.It was your own best Prime Minister, Paul Keating, who famously remarked "If you don't live in Sydney you're just camping out" - http://wilsonsalmanac.blogspot.com/2005 ... ating.html (http://wilsonsalmanac.blogspot.com/2005/11/from-mouth-of-paul-keating.html)