The Butterfly Effect

[topjohn5]

Can someone enlighten me to this "butterfly" stuff that guys online have asked me about when I have chatted with them.
Specifically, I have been asked if I was a butterfly or not several times by bar-boys (rent boys or if you prefer escorts) online in chats.
So, I know what they meant when they asked me because I have read posts here. I know what a butterfly is. And, I understand that they would prefer their clients not be butterflies. I assume they would like us to not be a butterfly because we would be less of a potential long term bf or psuedo-bf (mock-bf maybe, lol) and not a good provider, correct?
But, what I really don't get is the disdain in which they say it. It's very accusitory and in an almost comical way because.....well, because, I'm being accused of sleeping around by an escort boy! How odd! A boy, who is doing the same thing I'm being accused of, day after day no less, lol. I mean don't I have the right to shop around? This is assuming, of course, I am shopping for a bf and not a good fuck? Doesn't it occur to them that this is a tad shall we say hypocritical!
Oh, and please don't say I have no respect for their profession. I do....I have had some great friends who were escorts!

[Wesley]

A buffterfy is a guy that is from boy to boy flower to flower never staying long, when they do find a succulent liitle flower they stay for a while to feed, then move on. If you are looking to settled down with a guy then I guess you are not a Butterfly, I guess there are more sophitocated idea's out thre but I have a killer hangover so I will leave this short. I would assume, they are wishing they could find a guy to settle down with and if you find a good guy the first night . Its hard to walk by him the next night if you want to play with other guys and suppose he is not just loosing you, but income. So, I think they actually do get attached to you in more way than one. But when you fly by him on the street, then he sees you later with another guy I guess he has lost you and income for tonight. especially, now in the low season that may be important. But if they get enough for thier cell phone they will be happy, I think they had rather text than eat at times.


Wes

[MARK]

Topjohn5,
In your post you implied you know so little, yet understand so much. Why dont you just come on holiday and see, enjoy, love it or hate it, then go back home. You say you are well traveled why so many questions. :geek:

[topjohn5]

Topjohn5,
In your post you implied you know so little, yet understand so much. Why dont you just come on holiday and see, enjoy, love it or hate it, then go back home. You say you are well traveled why so many questions. :geek:

Well guy, I am well traveled but never to Thailand my friend! So, this is why I am asking the questions on a Thailand gay board. Not to complex is it Mark!And, I am coming there on December 6th to be precise! These are simply questions on my mind so if you have something of interest then say it or move on, lol.

[allieb]

Top John

My advise to you is to be a butterfly on your first trip and get to know what your dealing with, The boys are good at thier job, so good in fact they will make you feel guilty about even looking at another boy. As soon as you are packed off at the airport with tears, and believe me thay realy can and do cry buketts, they are at it again with the next sucker. Don't missunderstand me I am not condeming the boys for this its just the way it is in Thailand. There will be posters on this board who tell you that they realy do have a faithful bf but they are either very lucky or deluding themselves.

[Geezer]

I have a friend who says, of his first trip to Thailand, he never got a chance to select a lad he wanted. A boy always chose him first.

It is a market. YOU are the customer. THEY are the salesmen.

Perhaps one should not visit Thailand unless one has first dealt with an automobile salesman.

I guess I qualify as a butterfly.

[Wesley]

I am stoill in the Metamophise of becomeing one of the other. at my age it could be anyone that amkes me feel good . I am sure They guys are better at this than we are at choosing.

Wes

[jolyjacktar]

LOL !! Makes me laugh as once a boy in a well known boyz town agogo said to me, " You no buterfly, you helicopter"
Love the Thais humour.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

you will find plenty of pretty butterflies and a lot of old moths flickering around bright flames. They're called "farangs".

Hey TJ5 . . . the bar boys, bless their little hearts, are in the business of making money. And they want you to off them for that first night. But theyтАЩll even want more to have you off them every night of your trip; more business, more money (unless you are a bad tipper!)

So they always ask you if you are a butterfly, as if that is negative, just to help shame you into staying as their customer. Plus, depending on your answer, they can quickly calculate how much they will make off of you. (You didn't really think the, "Where you stay? / How long you in Bangkok?" line of questioning was idle curiosity, did you?)

When asked I give one of two answers: тАЬUp to youтАЭ is a nice turnabout on one of their favorite phrases . . . and tips them off to the тАШgood performance, repeat businessтАЩ school of thought. And IтАЩve enjoyed spending weeks with one guy on several trips. My other answer is to just be perfectly honest and tell them you want to try many boys. They will pout a bit, but totally understand and will even suggest other boys (their friends) for you to try out. And there are a few of my one-nighters that I off on every trip - they are always glad to see me even though they know it will be a one time deal each visit.

My advice: First trip to BKK - go full butterfly! You can save the тАШIтАЩm in LoveтАЩ 2 week relationship for a future trip - give you a new experience to look forward to on your next visit!

[topjohn5]

Hey TJ5 . . . the bar boys, bless their little hearts, are in the business of making money. And they want you to off them for that first night. But theyтАЩll even want more to have you off them every night of your trip; more business, more money (unless you are a bad tipper!)

So they always ask you if you are a butterfly, as if that is negative, just to help shame you into staying as their customer. Plus, depending on your answer, they can quickly calculate how much they will make off of you. (You didn't really think the, "Where you stay? / How long you in Bangkok?" line of questioning was idle curiosity, did you?)

When asked I give one of two answers: тАЬUp to youтАЭ is a nice turnabout on one of their favorite phrases . . . and tips them off to the тАШgood performance, repeat businessтАЩ school of thought. And IтАЩve enjoyed spending weeks with one guy on several trips. My other answer is to just be perfectly honest and tell them you want to try many boys. They will pout a bit, but totally understand and will even suggest other boys (their friends) for you to try out. And there are a few of my one-nighters that I off on every trip - they are always glad to see me even though they know it will be a one time deal each visit.

My advice: First trip to BKK - go full butterfly! You can save the тАШIтАЩm in LoveтАЩ 2 week relationship for a future trip - give you a new experience to look forward to on your next visit!

Thanks Rush! Great info!

[Art]

But, what I really don't get is the disdain in which they say it. It's very accusitory and in an almost comical way because.....well, because, I'm being accused of sleeping around by an escort boy! How odd!
Even if they escort us to one of the innumerable veteran mattresses in the land of the ambiguous smiles, they are not escorts. "I miss you!" Escorts don't pretend to miss their customers.

They are (B) dancers who don't dance. If elected by the voter they serve as (C) hosts - catalysts for the alcohol turnover. "Butterfly" is a well known word in Thai English, as the country abounds with this species and features scores of fatherless families. Many hosts look for *long time* financial support to sponsor their mothers who fell victim to a *domestic* butterfly.


A boy, who is doing the same thing I'm being accused of, day after day no less, lol.
Does the host *choose* a young man and pay for the time spent together? No, we make our choice. And each time we take a different number!

And while we are swimming through our sexual dreams with this sweet Thai body on the mattress, our young Buddhist (D) bedfellow is meditating on the Baht notes that still reside in our housewifely purse. Amen!

He is a (A) Thai money boy, as all of us on the look-out for money. Be it as a dancer, host, bedfellow, whatever. And he may wish for loyal customers. The McOklinbamas and suchlike - aren't they all loyal monogamists? Emotions are welcome in this business and keen disappointment may be displayed. But our Thai money boy is not a hypocrite! He dearly tries to satisfy all of our mundane needs that he can imagine.

"I miss you!" might sound simple-hearted, but hearts are just simple, and those three words are included in the price of the last meeting. "I miss you!" Whoever else is prepared to voice affection at any hour of the day - even if he knows that we don't believe it? Our amiable amateurs, our playful Thai money boys! "I miss you!"

Just inform your Thai *money boy of the day* (or your respective morning/noon/afternoon/evening/night money boys) about your butterflyish tendencies. He - or better they - will welcome you as a trustworthy *foreign* butterfly with access to ATMs even if they can milk you only for a *short time*. And their sexual palatability will not be questioned by the other boys. But don' t say "Me *top butterfly*." Just say: "I am a butterflyish *gay king*." And your kingdom will come.

I know, you know.

The financial crisis and current Thai affairs endanger this niche market. By illuminating the peculiarities of the Thai money boys we try to encourage potential novices to come and eat the fruits of the Siamese tree. You know. That is why you asked the question. What a harmony - on this electronic schoolyard - alive with slightly overripe boys.

[nanette]

The reason why a boy asks you wherther you're a butterfly is because he wants to keep you for himself. If you suggest to him to do a "sandwich" he will probably say that he's shy, but I doubt that he's a prude. In most likelyhood he doesn't want to share you with anyone else.
There are so many cute ones around, so just pick anyone that you fancy, treat him well if he's up to your expectation, and don't feel guilty about casting your eyes at other lovely ones in the wings. In general I tip them better if they don't complain too much about being in the sun, being tired of walking, or being sleepy. They are only too happy to have you even if you admit being a butterfly.

Can someone enlighten me to this "butterfly" stuff that guys online have asked me about when I have chatted with them.....

They're sounding you out, that's all.
It's like asking "How big is your cock" or "are you top or bottom".
I would suggest, since this is your first trip, just say "Yes, I'm butterfly"....

and fcuk their brains out with abandon and no guilt. :evil2:

[TrongpaiExpat]

Art and Rush two new board members giving good advise that displays that they are only new in the sense of participation in this little board community. Nice to see new members with such sage seasoning joining us. Welcome.

[topjohn5]

Can someone enlighten me to this "butterfly" stuff that guys online have asked me about when I have chatted with them.....

They're sounding you out, that's all.
It's like asking "How big is your cock" or "are you top or bottom".
I would suggest, since this is your first trip, just say "Yes, I'm butterfly"....

and fcuk their brains out with abandon and no guilt. :evil2:

Yes, I know it's what I should do, and hope I do....do.... But, to be very honest with you (and it's so odd to sound like I'm apologizing for this), I find it's an uphill battle to be a butterfly. I realize fully it is the best course of action for me and the Thai guys as well since I intend on not staying in Thailand.
My guess is if I can get past the first doe-eyed boy I will be okay. I think I can be a slut! I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.....
I agree though, I just need to tell them I am a butterfly. And, I need to be convincing, lol.

IMHO you have to be a butterfly: Since most of the boys perform at their best during their first few 'offs', after some time, especially during a long-stay with a farang, the energy, motivation and drive subsides.
So, if a boy asks whether you are a butterfly, it may imply that the boy has experienced farangs who're acting as a butterfly. It says enough abot the boys' attitude!!

Butterfly or not remember "They Thai so they Lie." You can't separate these two words.

[Geezer]

Butterfly or not remember "They Thai so they Lie." You can't separate these two words.

More than farangs?

Butterfly or not remember "They Thai so they Lie." You can't separate these two words.

Absolute rubbish. Would you believe what anyone in the same profession told you in your own country? Why, therefore, would you here, and why, therefore, should it apply to an entire nation?


There will be posters on this board who tell you that they realy do have a faithful bf but they are either very lucky or deluding themselves.

If they are on holiday, I would agree that 99.99% are deluding themselves. If they are living here, together 24/7 etc, it may be a different story.

Keep it simple (KISS).

[topjohn5]

[quote="Marcus Wilson":3g4fhvjl]Butterfly or not remember "They Thai so they Lie." You can't separate these two words.

Absolute rubbish. Would you believe what anyone in the same profession told you in your own country? Why, therefore, would you here, and why, therefore, should it apply to an entire nation?


There will be posters on this board who tell you that they realy do have a faithful bf but they are either very lucky or deluding themselves.

If they are on holiday, I would agree that 99.99% are deluding themselves. If they are living here, together 24/7 etc, it may be a different story.

Keep it simple (KISS).[/quote:3g4fhvjl]

Hi GF,
Very reasonable thoughts.....Thanks!
From my reading on this board and others it seems some get the idea of Thai=lie from a partial cultural misunderstanding. I'm not sure since I only know asians here in the States but, the idea of them not wanting to cause offense and avoiding conflicts at almost all costs (similar to many in mexico/central/south america), causes them to 'lie' based on our standards of conduct.....don't you think?

.... the idea of them not wanting to cause offense and avoiding conflicts at almost all costs (similar to many in mexico/central/south america), causes them to 'lie' based on our standards of conduct.....don't you think?

Partly, but I do not think the "cultural misunderstanding" was what Marcus Wilson was referring to.

The point that Asians (including, and particularly, Thais) may not want to cause offense and avoid conflicts at almost all costs is a very valid one and one which many Westerners do not allow for or may not realise until it is too late. Whereas in the West we are used to a visible escalation of anger / aggression / violence and can use that as an indicator for our own response this is often missing in the East; to a Westerner, this can be akin to realising that you are driving a car with an on-off switch rather than an accelerator - as evidenced by the differences in public demonstrations and crowd control tactics in the West (or at least some of it!) and the East..

[topjohn5]

.... the idea of them not wanting to cause offense and avoiding conflicts at almost all costs (similar to many in mexico/central/south america), causes them to 'lie' based on our standards of conduct.....don't you think?

Partly, but I do not think the "cultural misunderstanding" was what Marcus Wilson was referring to.

The point that Asians (including, and particularly, Thais) may not want to cause offense and avoid conflicts at almost all costs is a very valid one and one which many Westerners do not allow for or may not realise until it is too late. Whereas in the West we are used to a visible escalation of anger / aggression / violence and can use that as an indicator for our own response this is often missing in the East; to a Westerner, this can be akin to realising that you are driving a car with an on-off switch rather than an accelerator - as evidenced by the differences in public demonstrations and crowd control tactics in the West (or at least some of it!) and the East..

GF,
That makes me wonder a little if they don't also have some hints that things are escalating too. I bet they do also as it would cause too many problems if they don't. Maybe, we just can't read it and they give hints, non-verbally possibly (?) that things are going a rye......or will go a rye.....
Maybe they give hints that things are really tenative and they may not (probably not) keep a promise. I'm just wondering out loud......

[andrewcraig]

J have been amused with the posts about finding a boy on the internet, before you arrive. I wonder why they think it is better, than the hunt. I raised this with a friend in email, who replied when he first came to LOS and much younger and fitter than he is now, his attitude was one f### missed out on was one never caught up with. He had to have a boy,anyboy waiting for him when he arrives at his hotel.

Several bad experiences over a number of trips made him change It was all about money and one boy he had cyber sex with, was not the boy that arrived at his hotel

His plane from Sydney arrives about 22.30 He goes straight to his hotel showers and changes and tries to catch the last show at Jupiters. Whatever he is happy to go to GOD or DJ Station and cruise. He is not selective as to who he offs first night, he has a lot of 'steam" to get rid of. As he sleeps on the plane, he often goes looking for seconds before daylight.

He wont touch the boys outside McDonalds, or in Rama 4. He crosses the road to the gates of Lumpini Park where there are many bar boys looking for a trick before going home. When the gates open around 04.00 he goes with the tide.

But from his first full night he slowly starts to get change from if he is breathing thats good enough, home for a quickie then back for another. By the end of his first week he has become selective He sums up his 3 weeks as follows

QUANTITY

QUALTITY

LONG TERM

At my age I can only remember. But it seems to be a better answer to the newbies asking for advice than some replies.

Altogether there has been some great new posters giving good advice recently. I hope it continues

Do all of these boys even consider themselves purely for rent? IтАЩm only surmising here but maybe some boys ask because he wants to save face if anything ever comes from their meeting. We seem to agree that in most cases it would be better for the boy to have one тАШclientтАЩ for the whole week (for example) who he believes can be trusted and is faithful for that time - even considering him a BF.

So maybe he will show off his new BF to his friends/colleagues, maybe boast this one has genuine feelings for him, is faithful and trusting, etc, etcтАж.

тАжbut then to find out heтАЩs just another butterfly, and causing him to loose face.тАж

Don't forget that these guys are the ultimate butterflies.If you're going to start describing hookers as butterflies I'm not sure where it will end. Surely a butterfly is someone who chooses promiscuity. Many bar boys do have boyfriends, very often a boy from the same or another bar; I'm sure they don't regard going off with a trick as being a butterfly. That's a debauch of the English language

[topjohn5]

Do all of these boys even consider themselves purely for rent? IтАЩm only surmising here but maybe some boys ask because he wants to save face if anything ever comes from their meeting. We seem to agree that in most cases it would be better for the boy to have one тАШclientтАЩ for the whole week (for example) who he believes can be trusted and is faithful for that time - even considering him a BF.

So maybe he will show off his new BF to his friends/colleagues, maybe boast this one has genuine feelings for him, is faithful and trusting, etc, etcтАж.

тАжbut then to find out heтАЩs just another butterfly, and causing him to loose face.тАж

By the way, you may have something there. I bet that many of the boys rationalize the jobs not only based on the fact that they are helping the family (the number one goal it seems) but also that to further that end they are just shopping for a provider/husband.....makes sense really. And, if you can't provide, I down grade you to butterfly! It's possible, as you say, that it somehow saves face (not that I grasp the concept fully) if something comes from the "date". Or, not, lol.....it could just be a clever attempt, as someone else said, to just throw a guilt trip on you.....who knows....but I love trying to understand it all! So, who is the next person to say to me..."you think to much"......hey, I have a month and a half before I get there I can think for a while still!!! LOL
Anyway, wouldn't a client who states they aren't a butterfly and then "proves" they are one cause the client to lose face and not the boy?

If a moneyboy isn't promiscuous , I don't know who is.That's rather like saying "a prostitute is a nymphomaniac", whereas we all know that's simply not (generally) true. Why would one not be a stickler for the use of language? The purpose of language is to communicate; the more accurate the use of language the better the communication. If you want people to misunderstand you, by all means be careless. You're also doing that very Asian thing - confusing form with substance

topjohn5

OK money is their main motive and they explain it away what they do is necessary to help their mama, etc.

But social structures is important too. What do their colleagues and mates think of them, how do they fit in тАУ and at what level?

So itтАЩs easy to say I have sex with men because I need the money for my familyтАжтАж and I donтАЩt bottom because IтАЩm a real man. This will put them on a level playing field with the other boys.

But if a boy brags that his punters are trusting and faithful and that they stick around, & they not butterflies and filthy liarsтАж in effect attracting the cr├иme de la cr├иme of puntersтАж donтАЩt you think his standing would go up?тАж LOLтАж (And if heтАЩs a ral stunner then heтАЩs into the money too!)

[netrix]

topjohn5

OK money is their main motive and they explain it away what they do is necessary to help their mama, etc.

But social structures is important too. What do their colleagues and mates think of them, how do they fit in тАУ and at what level?

So itтАЩs easy to say I have sex with men because I need the money for my familyтАжтАж and I donтАЩt bottom because IтАЩm a real man. This will put them on a level playing field with the other boys.

But if a boy brags that his punters are trusting and faithful and that they stick around, & they not butterflies and filthy liarsтАж in effect attracting the cr├иme de la cr├иme of puntersтАж donтАЩt you think his standing would go up?тАж LOLтАж (And if heтАЩs a ral stunner then heтАЩs into the money too!)

you think too much.

Homi, there is a huge difference between "promiscuity" and "nymphomania", totally unrelated in the context under discussion. If a guy is not promiscuous he could hardly be a moneyboy; Websters definition: "Casual and unrestrained in sexual behavior". Of course that includes lots of others too.You're missing the point (why am I not surprised?). Two people might share a common set of behaviours but one has chosen to live that way for no other reason than he can - he is promiscuous. The other behaves in a promiscuous way because it goes with the job. "Being a butterfly" is a state of mind. Equally "being a nymphomaniac" is a state of mind. Neither are necessarily the state of mind of the hooker. His state of mind is "show me the money". This is a difficult concept; as we know already you don't believe that language serves any purpose and that one word is pretty much the same as any other. This is merely another example of that

Homi, this is a fun board, not the language police. I am very well educated but there is no requirement for any of us to have to stick to the strict rules of usage just because it offends you personally. Few, if any, posters here use the English language 100% correctly, and I'm afraid that includes you.
Moneyboys are almost by definition promiscuous as it is a requirement of their chose profession; being a butterfly equates to fliting betwenn one sexual partner and another. Nymphomania is something completely different - an abnormally high sex drive.

I think there's been enough said on this, so I will leave the last word to you; the way you like it :blackeye:

well-educated
chosen
flitting
between

Homi, this is a fun board, not the language police. I am very well educated but there is no requirement for any of us to have to stick to the strict rules of usage just because it offends you personally. Few, if any, posters here use the English language 100% correctly, and I'm afraid that includes you.
Moneyboys are almost by definition promiscuous as it is a requirement of their chose profession; being a butterfly equates to fliting betwenn one sexual partner and another. Nymphomania is something completely different - an abnormally high sex drive.

I think there's been enough said on this, so I will leave the last word to you; the way you like it :blackeye:

well-educated
chosen
flitting
between

"I am very well educated (sic)"

Sounds dangerously similar to Aunty's "I'm a smart and educated man".

Moneyboys may show off a new client to friends etc, but hardly as a bf. More likely in the hope you'll pay out for a few drinks for his friends too. Don't forget that these guys are the ultimate butterflies.

I understand rentboys in most bars are obliged to go with whichever client selects them. ie once they choose this profession, they are expected to be butterflys.
On the other side, of course us punters could often choose to have the same rentboy almost every night for the whole holiday, but quite a few of us don't, so we're evidently "butterflys".
Nevermind, I can live with that on my conscience.

[topjohn5]

topjohn5

OK money is their main motive and they explain it away what they do is necessary to help their mama, etc.

But social structures is important too. What do their colleagues and mates think of them, how do they fit in тАУ and at what level?

So itтАЩs easy to say I have sex with men because I need the money for my familyтАжтАж and I donтАЩt bottom because IтАЩm a real man. This will put them on a level playing field with the other boys.

But if a boy brags that his punters are trusting and faithful and that they stick around, & they not butterflies and filthy liarsтАж in effect attracting the cr├иme de la cr├иme of puntersтАж donтАЩt you think his standing would go up?тАж LOLтАж (And if heтАЩs a ral stunner then heтАЩs into the money too!)

you think too much.

Guilty......
until I get there anyway, and then I'll likely go with the flow. :wav:

If a moneyboy isn't promiscuous , I don't know who is.That's rather like saying "a prostitute is a nymphomaniac", whereas we all know that's simply not (generally) true.


Moneyboys are almost by definition promiscuous as it is a requirement of their chose profession ...

I hate to do it, but I really have to support homi on this and to disagree with you totally, fatts. To say that being promiscuous is a requirement of any "moneyboy" (for want of a better term) is simply missing the point that theirs is a job, which in my experience most view as they do any other form of employment. Away from their job many are no more and no less promiscuous (or monogamous) than anyone else.

For a successful "moneyboy", being a good actor is a far more important requirement than being promiscuous.