Well done Gordon Brown

A leader of the world, in all respects, all it took was a little proactivness, imagination, coordination and a Brit way of thinking (or Scot), to come up with the recent ideology of the recent bailouts for the banks - then all the other countries follow suit. Well done Gordon. It took him a long time, but now even the yanks are following the UK's way of thinking. Word of the week "coordination" and "copycat".

Well done Gordon.Yes, having completely fucked up the UK regulatory system, he can now take the credit for fixing his self-inflicted wounds

I'm not convinced that the fat lady has sung yet. I do notice that the sole remaining "English" Bank, Barclays, has decided to forego partial nationalisation. Both the current partial nationalisations are significantly Scottiish. Even Lloyds/TSB was significantly Scottish on the TSB side. Anyone who thinks HSBC isn't Scottish was never a member of the St. Andrews Society of Hong Kong.

Scots are usually rather careful wi' thair bawbees. Interesting they seem to be in the front of the queue for rescue on this occassion. Maybe they just doant see nationalisation as a bogeyman or even permanent.

I don't think the Kircaldy Kid should get too smug jist yet. A week is a long time in the City.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

I think the Word of the week should be nationalisation and socialism. (that's 2 words !)

Not to sure about the Scots bit. Although I had a balmy Russian grandmother-on the other side was a ratbag Scots grandfather who insisted on playing the bagpipes every Sunday and was legendary for his meanness.

Let's face it-although I haven't followed Brown's career closely but he is one of the architects of the Blairite Nu Labour disaster.

Nu Labor is the illegitimate denied love child of Maggie & Ron.

Well done Gordon.Yes, having completely fucked up the UK regulatory system, he can now take the credit for fixing his self-inflicted wounds

The UK regulatory system hasn't been changed for years, it has been the same, if anything, it's Thatcherism and Reaganism that started this off, its been piling up for years.

However, strangely enough, apparently the FSA were already in the process of amending regulations/laws - now we know for sure "they" are going to do this.

All us will be paying the price for the good work that Gordon has done though eventually .... in taxes, interest rates and inflation unless they keep a close eye on how this bailout is going to evolve in the coming months/years.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Nu Labor is the illegitimate denied love child of Maggie & Ron.

I must agree 555 ( well I would, wouldn't I ?). I really loved UK politics-when it was always the old fashioned Labour Party committed to genuine fairness for all, and batty Conservative types who were often eccentric but equally well meaning.

And than along came Maggie !. But Maggie's got nothing on Tony Blair-he took Thatcherism to vast new heights the poor woman could only dream of, before she was bundled out in tears and placed in a taxi to be sent back to Croydon and Dennis after losing the leadership.

Personally, I believe people do deals with the Devil and I fear Blair is one. The intelligent, clever and popular John Smith would have been swept into power as the new Labour Prime Minster and Britain would have been so much better for it.

But then-suddenly a very timely heart attack felled this wonderful man and a wolf in sheep's clothing, handsomely packaged, comes along-T.Blair, promising to reverse privitisation and such but immediately did the opposite-as though on steroids.

The UK regulatory system hasn't been changed for years, it has been the same, if anything, it's Thatcherism and Reaganism that started this off, its been piling up for years.What an ignorant little twerp you are - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... do1406.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/14/do1406.xml)

Gordon Brown "took the regulation of the banks out of the hands of the Bank of England". Interest rate decisions were also handed to the Bank of England from the current government.

I also read the article which said "it was down to Gordon Brown that the supply of money grew at the prodigious speed it did, allowing the banks easy access to cheap money to lend on in their pursuit of shareholder value.

I don't recall these past 10 years where the current UK government made any fundamental changes to regulations, only who was governing them. Similarly, with regard to supply of money, no regulations were put in place there, the supply of money just grew - rather, lack of regulations.

I don't recall these past 10 years Clearly!

... you are wrong and I am right then!!!

Gordon Brown "took the regulation of the banks out of the hands of the Bank of England". Interest rate decisions were also handed to the Bank of England from the current government.
I also read the article which said "it was down to Gordon Brown that the supply of money grew at the prodigious speed it did, allowing the banks easy access to cheap money to lend on in their pursuit of shareholder value.
I don't recall these past 10 years where the current UK government made any fundamental changes to regulations, only who was governing them. Similarly, with regard to supply of money, no regulations were put in place there, the supply of money just grew - rather, lack of regulations.

The government handed responsibility for setting interest rates to the BOE, but then mucked it up buy changing the measure of inflation to an inappropriate one that excludes many of the things which have been inflating (this was against the wishes of the BOE).
Labour then compounded their error, by going on a government borrow & spend binge, which now leaves them little room to introduce a fiscal stimulus if it's needed in the next few years.

How did BritainтАЩs hapless prime minister become the saviour of the universe?
тАЬSAY what you like about Boris Yeltsin,тАЭ said one pithy obituarist of RussiaтАЩs mercurial president, тАЬand youтАЩre probably right.тАЭ Say what you like about Gordon Brown, it seems, and youтАЩll eventually be right too. He is a tin-eared, cack-handed no-hoper, the anti-Midas of politics; but also, now, an economic seer, globalisationтАЩs therapist, lionised by the European media, saluted by leaders who once disdained him and hailed by the new Nobel economics laureate as the man who may have saved the world financial system. If Hollywood ever makes a film about the crash of 2008, Mr Brown may be the reviled but ultimately vindicated nerdy hero (played by Tom Hanks). http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... d=12427804 (http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12427804)

How did BritainтАЩs hapless prime minister become the saviour of the universe?
тАЬSAY what you like about Boris Yeltsin,тАЭ said one pithy obituarist of RussiaтАЩs mercurial president, тАЬand youтАЩre probably right.тАЭ Say what you like about Gordon Brown, it seems, and youтАЩll eventually be right too. He is a tin-eared, cack-handed no-hoper, the anti-Midas of politics; but also, now, an economic seer, globalisationтАЩs therapist, lionised by the European media, saluted by leaders who once disdained him and hailed by the new Nobel economics laureate as the man who may have saved the world financial system. If Hollywood ever makes a film about the crash of 2008, Mr Brown may be the reviled but ultimately vindicated nerdy hero (played by Tom Hanks). http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... d=12427804 (http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12427804)

Hom "The Economist's view" but what is "your view" or are you lol!

Hom "The Economist's view" but what is "your view" or are you lol!How can I tell?

.... is now trying to stump up support from Asian/Middle East countries to pump money into the IMF. His ratings have gone up this past week in the polls, he is still 8 points lower than Cameron though. But he seems to be pulling out all stops to get the global credit crisis sorted out.

.... is now trying to stump up support from Asian/Middle East countries to pump money into the IMF. His ratings have gone up this past week in the polls, he is still 8 points lower than Cameron though. But he seems to be pulling out all stops to get the global credit crisis sorted out.Isn't that his job? He's still prime minister of a G7 country isn't he?

Gordon Brown is the one who was responsible for PRE-RECESSION borrowing levels in the UK that were so bad the IMF and the EU both warned the UK about this.

He also inflicted an inappropriate measure of inflation on the BOE a few years back, which therefore led to the wrong interest rates being set & stoking up the credit bubble too much.

So he should damn well be doing his best to sort his mess out.

Gordon Brown is the one who was responsible for PRE-RECESSION borrowing levels in the UK that were so bad the IMF and the EU both warned the UK about this.

He also inflicted an inappropriate measure of inflation on the BOE a few years back, which therefore led to the wrong interest rates being set & stoking up the credit bubble too much.

So he should damn well be doing his best to sort his mess out.

We can hardly put Gordon Brown up against the wall and blame him for the record levels of borrowing in the UK, this all started during Thatcherism/Reagism.

We can hardly put Gordon Brown up against the wall and blame him for the record levels of borrowing in the UK, this all started during Thatcherism/Reagism.

LabourтАЩs fiscal framework was in tatters well before the downturn now afflicting the economy.

That framework comprised two rules, adopted to bolster LabourтАЩs budgetary credibility after a long period in opposition. First, the Treasury would borrow only to invest over the course of the economic cycle. Put another way, the governmentтАЩs current-budget balance (which excludes net investment) would be in balance or surplusтАФa stipulation often called the тАЬgolden ruleтАЭ. And second, public-sector debt (net of liquid assets like foreign-exchange reserves) was to be held at a sustainable level, subsequently defined by the Treasury as below 40% of GDP.

The golden rule was the first to fall into disrepute. After some bumper years when the current budget was in surplus, it swung back into the red in 2002-03 (see first chart). But Mr Brown was able to disregard this because he had to meet the rule only over the economic cycle. That allowed him to offset the new deficits with the previous surpluses. Crucially, the Treasury determined the dates of the cycle, which proved conveniently elasticтАФpushing its starting-point back to encompass more of the good years as the public finances got worse.

But if the golden rule could be fudged for a while, a breach in the debt rule proved more difficult to disguise, even though Mr Brown did his best to keep underlying public obligations off the books. Public debt has already risen above 40% owing to the decision by official statisticians to include the liabilities of Northern Rock, a mortgage lender nationalised in February (see second chart). The Treasury has decided that such liabilities should be excluded in assessing the rule, but this judgment no longer matters. Public borrowing is already ballooning. Even without the liabilities of Northern Rock and other banks rescued by the government, public debt is clearly going to smash through the 40% ceiling as tax revenues swoon and welfare spending rises.
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... d=12516590 (http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12516590)
http://www.spectator.co.uk/business/cof ... long.thtml (http://www.spectator.co.uk/business/coffeehouse/2210776/brown-wont-be-smiling-for-long.thtml)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... do1903.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/19/do1903.xml)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson ... tml?page=2 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/10/crucial_duel.html?page=2)

Ah yes, WhiteDesire's knowledge of economics and public affairs runs true to form

We can hardly put Gordon Brown up against the wall and blame him for the record levels of borrowing in the UK, this all started during Thatcherism/Reagism.

I bloody well can.

Under Mrs Thatcher, public spending was reasonably under control & the level of borrowing was much lower than it is now. Indeed, the accumulated government deficit decreased as a percentage of GDP under Mrs T.

Gordon the moron has well & truly made a complete mess of our public sector finances.

We can hardly put Gordon Brown up against the wall and blame him for the record levels of borrowing in the UK, this all started during Thatcherism/Reagism.

I bloody well can.

Under Mrs Thatcher, public spending was reasonably under control & the level of borrowing was much lower than it is now. Indeed, the accumulated government deficit decreased as a percentage of GDP under Mrs T.

Gordon the moron has well & truly made a complete mess of our public sector finances.

Margaret Thatcher sold (privatised) the family silver and eradicated maintenance budgets to the point where some public services came close to collapse. Gordon Brown is culpable for continuing the Thatcherite policies.

Gordon Brown has thrown vast quantities of money at "public services", with hardly any improvement in output.
Then he has the damn cheek to lecture the private sector about productivity, when state sector productivity has declined markedly.

All the extra money has hardly improved services at all, mainly because there is no consumer choice or competition in these sectors.

... there is no consumer choice or competition in these sectors.Isn't that the point of "public sector"?

[Davey612]

So it is now almost the end of January and a whole bunch of us, Americans, are going to visit London for the first time. Yeah! Four star hotels in London for $75 a night (using Priceline). Yes, thanks Mr. Brown for allowing us this opportunity. Now remind us, where can we open a RBS account? Do they allow wire transfers? Are their ATMs reliable?

[ceejay]

Margaret Thatcher sold (privatised) the family silver and eradicated maintenance budgets to the point where some public services came close to collapse. Gordon Brown is culpable for continuing the Thatcherite policies.
She also ruthlessly ran down the manufacturing sector of the economy, leaving it largely dependent on financial services (another policy which at best Blair/Brown did nothing to reverse). That's why we are not in a good position to benefit from the fall in the exchange rate.


Now remind us, where can we open a RBS account? Do they allow wire transfers? Are their ATMs reliable?
Perhaps, for the benefit of US customers, RBS will enter into a reciprocal arrangement with Bank of America? After all, they seem to run their businesses on similar principles.

[ceejay]

So it is now almost the end of January and a whole bunch of us, Americans, are going to visit London for the first time
I envy you that Davey. I lived in London for 25 years, and it is a wonderful place. I wish I could have another opportunity to see it for the first time - apart from a couple of months living in Leeds, I had only lived in a small country town (pop. 12000 or so) before I moved there aged 19. It was like travelling to a different planet.

As far as the gay scene goes, if you can't find what you are looking for, then you aren't trying hard enough. I moved out 10 years ago, so I am not the best source for up-to-date info, but I am sure there are plenty here who can give suggestions if you want them.

The night life is good, but don't miss the rest of what the city has to offer, which is a lot. Take a trip along the river - say from Westminster pier to the Tower of London. London has grown up, over more than 2000 years, around that stretch of river, and there is a lot to see.

Have fun, and welcome to England

[Davey612]

So it is now almost the end of January and a whole bunch of us, Americans, are going to visit London for the first time
I envy you that Davey. I lived in London for 25 years, and it is a wonderful place. I wish I could have another opportunity to see it for the first time - apart from a couple of months living in Leeds, I had only lived in a small country town (pop. 12000 or so) before I moved there aged 19. It was like travelling to a different planet.

As far as the gay scene goes, if you can't find what you are looking for, then you aren't trying hard enough. I moved out 10 years ago, so I am not the best source for up-to-date info, but I am sure there are plenty here who can give suggestions if you want them.

The night life is good, but don't miss the rest of what the city has to offer, which is a lot. Take a trip along the river - say from Westminster pier to the Tower of London. London has grown up, over more than 2000 years, around that stretch of river, and there is a lot to see.

Have fun, and welcome to England

Thank you. Will surely check the websites and guidebooks. I haven't seen such bargains from this side of the world. Usually the high prices in GB were enough to steel me to other parts of the world. So, my Bank of America card will be accepted at RBS branches? Just kidding.

[Khor tose]

Thank you. Will surely check the websites and guidebooks. I haven't seen such bargains from this side of the world. Usually the high prices in GB were enough to steel me to other parts of the world. So, my Bank of America card will be accepted at RBS branches? Just kidding.

Try to add the National Gallery (its free) and both Tates, as well as, the British Museum. There is more to life then young men, although I did meet several in London. However, no advice as to gay scene as my info is five years out of date. I too have been watching the pound tank, and I am seriously considering another two weeks in the UK. There is so much so see, and outside of London I found the people really warm and friendly. Have a great time, and please report back. :flower: :cheers:

[Wesley]

Now with several weeks of this, there is beginning to become a huge difference in the way they feel this is working out, especially with the bailouts, is anyone seeing a move towards the ccenter with this, especially with Congress.

Wes

[Khor tose]

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... d=12516590 (http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12516590)
http://www.spectator.co.uk/business/cof ... long.thtml (http://www.spectator.co.uk/business/coffeehouse/2210776/brown-wont-be-smiling-for-long.thtml)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... do1903.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/19/do1903.xml)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson ... tml?page=2 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/10/crucial_duel.html?page=2)

Ah yes, WhiteDesire's knowledge of economics and public affairs runs true to form

To get back to the subject, I finally had time to read Homi's citations, and I now have a better understanding what is happening in Britain. Sadly much of it sounds all too familiar. Different names, different people but the same disregard for basic safeguards, overspending by government, and short term policies by Banks and other institutions. I dare to add one citation that is referenced in the Spectator as well worth reading, and seems to clearly speak to what I would call another big part of the problem.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 916210.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/camilla_cavendish/article4916210.ece)

So does anyone have a real clue as to how we are going to get out of this situation. The bailouts being proposed are not making me feel all warm and fuzzy.

As history shows, all great empires decline.

For countries with large populations & no vast oversupply of resources, manufacturing is the only thing that generates large quantities of foreign currency. Britain has got rid of much of its manufacturing & financed the resulting trade deficit for years with borrowing & asset sales. What we need is a manufacturing renaissance, but there's not much chance of that with all Gordon's red tape & competitors like the Chinese engaging in mercantilism (via fixed currency, tariffs on imports etc).

[Khor tose]

As history shows, all great empires decline.

For countries with large populations & no vast oversupply of resources, manufacturing is the only thing that generates large quantities of foreign currency. Britain has got rid of much of its manufacturing & financed the resulting trade deficit for years with borrowing & asset sales. What we need is a manufacturing renaissance, but there's not much chance of that with all Gordon's red tape & competitors like the Chinese engaging in mercantilism (via fixed currency, tariffs on imports etc).

Thanks Z909, that is also what I think. So to me spending our way out of overspending is nuts. Shouldn't we take the hit, rebuild our industries or make new ones, and just provide emergency services to our populations? This attempt to hold on to what we once had sounds counter-productive to me. To be completely frank, I am glad I am the age I am, because all I see is that we are delaying the inevitable. That may work for a few years, but who the hell is going to pay for all of this if not our kids, and grandkids.

[cottmann]

.... but who the hell is going to pay for all of this if not our kids, and grandkids.

Not having either kids or grandkids, I'm not particularly worried about who pays for it, I must admit. As Louis XV said, тАЬApr├иs moi, le d├йlugeтАЭ (тАЬAfter me, the deluge").

.... but who the hell is going to pay for all of this if not our kids, and grandkids.Not having either kids or grandkids, I'm not particularly worried about who pays for it, I must admit. As Louis XV said, тАЬApr├иs moi, le d├йlugeтАЭ (тАЬAfter me, the deluge").I'm with you completely cottmann. But as Khor tose is, he tells us, a government spy and leading psychologist I'm sure he'll be on a government pension, so why is he bleating? Oh, I'm sorry, it's Khor tose we're discussing. Fortunately he's on {Ignore} so I see his idiocies only when someone quotes them

[Khor tose]

.... but who the hell is going to pay for all of this if not our kids, and grandkids.Not having either kids or grandkids, I'm not particularly worried about who pays for it, I must admit. As Louis XV said, тАЬApr├иs moi, le d├йlugeтАЭ (тАЬAfter me, the deluge").I'm with you completely cottmann. But as Khor tose is, he tells us, a government spy and leading psychologist I'm sure he'll be on a government pension, so why is he bleating? Oh, I'm sorry, it's Khor tose we're discussing. Fortunately he's on {Ignore} so I see his idiocies only when someone quotes them

Hello Dear, I missed you. Well I missed you under your real name. It is one of your other identities that thought I was a government spy, and not just a government worker. Also, while I did minor in psychology I am not a psychologist. I wish I was a psychologist, as being a psychologist would help me better understand, and maybe even help people like you.
I am glad you have me on ignore, and do hope you continue to do so, but it is a shame in one way. My question is exactly the type of question where your expertise is second to none. Along with Z909 I must admit economics are one area where you really shine.
If your ability to be compassionate was only half as good as your knowledge of economics you would a very good person, instead of a creature who is "only in it for the laughs." Still have your picture sweetheart, shame you can't see it. It really is you. Bye for now, love and kisses.