here's a cute boy for Henry Cate

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee135/lunchtimeobooze/first_americans_for_Obama.jpg

[Wesley]

Indeed, I can count two great mistakes (Lets leave out the recent ones)of America, one was the demise of the Indians , second the slavery issue. I belong to an indian tribe in the south and most of my ancestors on both sides were Indian, however that does not make me want to vote for Obama

Wesley

Every so often, it is helpful to take a contrarian view of things. As far as the American Indians (or Native Americans), one contrarian view is that what happened was inevitable. Compare, for example, the Australian aborigines in Australia. In fact, when one culture with vastly superior material technology (and the accompanying intellectual apparatus) is brought into long contact with a culture which is illiterate and does not have the accompanying intellectual apparatus, the outlook is grim indeed. The only exception I am aware of is Papua New Guinea, where apparently the illiterate Papuan tribes lead an artificially sheltered life, protected by their Australian overlords.

After all, one of the things NOT possessed by the American Indians was the notion of private (or several) property. They had, of course, a very CLEAR understanding of who-owned-what, but it was tribal, not individual. Therefore, on one level at least, discussion was impossible.

One must also take into account that not just once, but on many, many occasions, the Indians were the people who declared war. The Iroquois were famous (like the Spanish Inquisition) for burning people alive. Scalping, rape, and all the rest did not help.

The American Indians, being without gunpowder etc. naturally lost. I suppose that, in line with the current fashion, we should go on TV and say "We apologize."

The slavery thing is more interesting. Up until 1860 or so, my impression is that the whole world had slaves. The English were certainly involved in the slave trade in a major way, and even more so -- the Arabs. There was a vast trans-Saharan traffic in black slaves which provided one of the main sources of income for the Barbary Coast. (The other source, naturally, was raiding European ships and enslaving Europeans, particularly prized in Istanbul.)

So it does not seem to me that America deserves any particular onus in the slavery business. In fact, what sets us apart is that we actually fought the bloodiest war in American history to free the slaves.

Any other candidates?

By the way, as a weird footnote, who among us realizes that the Ku Klux Klan was an organization of Democrats??? Liberals tend to assume that all liberals of all times have been in agreement with current liberal sentiment, but Abe Lincoln was a Republican. The people who really couldn't STAND the emancipation of African slaves...well, they were Democrats.

If anyone actually LOOKS at that photo, they will see a small child being manipulated by adults. In particular, his legs are covered with footer stuff, and his headdress looks suspiciously like the Rainbow Flag -- not like ANY authentic American Indian wear I have ever seen.

If you doubt me, just tell me where the GREEN FEATHERS came from.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"By the way, as a weird footnote, who among us realizes that the Ku Klux Klan was an organization of Democrats??? Liberals tend to assume that all liberals of all times have been in agreement with current liberal sentiment, but Abe Lincoln was a Republican. The people who really couldn't STAND the emancipation of African slaves...well, they were Democrats."

yes we are aware of American history dear Henry although you are stretching back a little into the past aren't you ? -a bit like trying to link some Weatherman with Barak Obama who was 8 at the time he committed some deed (unlike Mrs Bush who ran down and killed a person when she was an adult)

....but that makes it even more ironic that the current Republican Party is run by a bunch of racist , right wing lying scumbags who would trash the Constitution and contemplate endorsing a nutbag like Sarah Apalin who gave speeches at the group who detest the rest of the USA and wish Alaska to break away from America and thus keep all that oil you think is coming your way. ( which I reckom sounds like treason)

I don't know, where did those fucking green feathers come from ??

I don't know, where did those fucking green feathers come from ??Careful Doris, you're mixing up your George and Lunchtime O'Booze personas again

[topjohn5]

Indeed, I can count two great mistakes (Lets leave out the recent ones)of America, one was the demise of the Indians , second the slavery issue. I belong to an indian tribe in the south and most of my ancestors on both sides were Indian, however that does not make me want to vote for Obama

Wesley

Hi Wes,
I'm of Cherokee descent myself.....and a Libertarian/Objectivist. Uggggg, I couldn't possibly vote for a socialist like.........well, like all of them!!!

I couldn't possibly vote for a socialist like.........well, like all of them!!!So what are you going to do this year? Say "Neither of the candidates reaches my exalted standards, so I'm sitting this one out"? That sounds a tad irresponsible.

[topjohn5]

I couldn't possibly vote for a socialist like.........well, like all of them!!!So what are you going to do this year? Say "Neither of the candidates reaches my exalted standards, so I'm sitting this one out"? That sounds a tad irresponsible.

No, I'm voting for whichever candidate is going to create the fewest new entitlement programs since none of them are discussing scaling them back...and which ever one is going to increase the size of government the least. Gee, we can't even pay for half of the programs we've already created!

No, I'm voting for whichever candidate is going to create the fewest new entitlement programs since none of them are discussing scaling them back...and which ever one is going to increase the size of government the least. Gee, we can't even pay for half of the programs we've already created!That is an issue of priorities. Either you believe self-proclaimed maverick McCain that he can achieve in office what he's never achieved in the Senate, or you believe the newbie. Either way, believing what anyone says during an election campaign is fraught with danger. Remember "Read my lips - No new taxes"? As someone who is McCain's near contemporary, and in comparable health, I wouldn't be voting for that old man on the grounds of age alone. There's a poll in, I think, last week's Economist - hardly a "liberal" magazine - of economists in the US, on their views of both candidates. It's worth reading. I'll dig up the URL if you can't find it online

[topjohn5]

No, I'm voting for whichever candidate is going to create the fewest new entitlement programs since none of them are discussing scaling them back...and which ever one is going to increase the size of government the least. Gee, we can't even pay for half of the programs we've already created!That is an issue of priorities. Either you believe self-proclaimed maverick McCain that he can achieve in office what he's never achieved in the Senate, or you believe the newbie. Either way, believing what anyone says during an election campaign is fraught with danger. Remember "Read my lips - No new taxes"? As someone who is McCain's near contemporary, and in comparable health, I wouldn't be voting for that old man on the grounds of age alone. There's a poll in, I think, last week's Economist - hardly a "liberal" magazine - of economists in the US, on their views of both candidates. It's worth reading. I'll dig up the URL if you can't find it online

Ain't that the truth.....
I'll read the article in the Economist.....Thanks!

[francois]

If anyone actually LOOKS at that photo, they will see a small child being manipulated by adults. In particular, his legs are covered with footer stuff, and his headdress looks suspiciously like the Rainbow Flag -- not like ANY authentic American Indian wear I have ever seen.

If you doubt me, just tell me where the GREEN FEATHERS came from.

They are not feathers! The boy is wearing a headdress known as a roach. Even I know that and I am not an Indian. Roaches were made from animal hair and dyed bright couleurs. It is authentic in that they are made and used by modern Indians using modern dyes. In the past Indians used naturel dyes for these headdresses.
If you ever attended a Powwow you would see similar examples.

I'd never heard of it, so I guess you do learn something every day.

Still, it was fun looking for the green feathers.

"By the way, as a weird footnote, who among us realizes that the Ku Klux Klan was an organization of Democrats??? Liberals tend to assume that all liberals of all times have been in agreement with current liberal sentiment, but Abe Lincoln was a Republican. The people who really couldn't STAND the emancipation of African slaves...well, they were Democrats."

yes we are aware of American history dear Henry although you are stretching back a little into the past aren't you ? -a bit like trying to link some Weatherman with Barak Obama who was 8 at the time he committed some deed (unlike Mrs Bush who ran down and killed a person when she was an adult)

....but that makes it even more ironic that the current Republican Party is run by a bunch of racist , right wing lying scumbags who would trash the Constitution and contemplate endorsing a nutbag like Sarah Apalin who gave speeches at the group who detest the rest of the USA and wish Alaska to break away from America and thus keep all that oil you think is coming your way. ( which I reckom sounds like treason)

I don't know, where did those fucking green feathers come from ??

I was stretching back into the past a little? One of the subjects under discussion was slavery. So, I pointed out that the Great Emancipator was a Republican, and the KKK were Democrats.

Well, you would probably be disappointed to learn that liberals are quite a bit more likely to be racist than conservatives. See Makers and Takers for a long list of things which are not publicized by the media.

"Right wing?" What does that weary old term mean? It originated in revolutionary France, I believe, with "left" referring to one side of the chamber and "right" referring to the other side. But we are not living in revolutionary France. If you said I was in favor of the free market, I would agree enthusiastically.

After all, at the end of the day, many of us hardly disagree at all, but would like to see an end to poverty, men living in harmony, and all that Kumbaya stuff. I think that the only real existing difference is between those who want it to happen NOW, through government-imposed egalitarianism -- which does not work -- and those who want to see it really happen -- through hard work, capital, and investment. There is another significant difference, between those who actually want to help people right now with their own money (which can be costly), and those who simply shrug off their responsibilities and vote "Liberal," taking the attitude "I gave at the office." There are those content to sit back and contentedly declaim that the Thai educational system is bullshit, and there are others who spend significant amounts of time and money trying to make it better.

Henry, surely you know that the great civil rights battles in US history were not fought primarily along party lines, but among regional (North/South) lines.

Quoth the Lunchman:


yes we are aware of American history dear Henry although you are stretching back a little into the past aren't you ? -a bit like trying to link some Weatherman with Barak Obama who was 8 at the time he committed some deed (unlike Mrs Bush who ran down and killed a person when she was an adult)

For a slightly more nuanced view, look here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-kass-mk-bd-12-oct12,0,5393672.column

:geek:

[Edited to fix URL]

[Wesley]

Henry, surely you know that the great civil rights battles in US history were not fought primarily along party lines, but among regional (North/South) lines.

When I speak of slavery, for the most part, I speak of not just that but, the final right to vote and sit at the front of the bus. The injustice of my father and his father remind me daily how far we have come in such short time. I remember well when I was not allowed to eat with black people, now likely one will be our next president. In may ways that right many wrongs but, can never bring back the hurt of the past! It can give those who still claim to be oppressed no podium in which to stand. I, as topjohn am no liberalist. If I vote it will not be for someone who has done nothing and plans to bring back the socialist reform that it took so long to get rid of. I will vote for smaller government and less entitlements. I do not count myself as a conservative and if anything way to Liberal for my friends. However, when the banks fell and Wall Street plummeted any chance of a McCain victory ended with the fall of the economy and looks farther to a one world government, hopefully some time centuries away. In any case if Obama can bring any respect to the flag I will applaud him. If he can bring back all that was lost under Bush then I wish him the best. If by any means he can restore a congress with a rating above 50% I would most certainly applaud him. He however, needs to leave taxes and entitlements alone or there will be no economy to save.

Wes

You actually wrote this:


a one world government

When I was just a child, in my early thirties, I actually believed that I supported this idea. But it is, right now, a simply terrible idea. Have a look at the UN, where Iran is chairing the Anti-Terrorism Committee, and Cuba is chairing the Free Speech Committee.

I MADE THOSE UP, BUT THE ACTUAL UN IS WORSE.

Really -- one government for the entire world? Is this a joke, or a dream, or a nightmare, or what?

As an American, I already can't stand pissy Canadians lecturing us about free speech, when they have already reduced it to a dead letter in their own Enlightened Provinces. Ask Mark Steyn for the details --- he was recently dragged before some really strange Canadian semi-governmental tribunals, simply for writing facts. Free speech in Canada is a JOKE.

Freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia is NON-EXISTENT.

Why the hell should Americans (and Englishmen, Australians, etc.) even waste their time on thinking about such things, when other ideas, such as the Anglosphere, are already out there, waiting to be examined by patient and goal-oriented men???

So it does not seem to me that America deserves any particular onus in the slavery business. In fact, what sets us apart is that we actually fought the bloodiest war in American history to free the slaves.

Really?

I thought the American Civil War, which started in 1861 was "the bloodiest war in American history" and that the Emancipation Proclamation was issued in 1863. What were they doing for the first two years? Practicing? Or was there some other war I missed? And what about the Union states which still permitted slavery?

Far from "stretching back a little into the past" he is simply stretching the past.

[ceejay]

Plus which of course, one side was fighting the bloodiest war in American history in defence of slavery.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

well who would have thought we have members who are from the orginal Americans !! how wonderful as they, along with many indigenous communities from the Australian Aboriginals to the Canadian Aboriginals and the tribes of Africa were the original socialists..long before the Great Socialist and aberrant Rabbi Jesus Christ came along.

topjohn5-no doubt you will have to vote for Barak Obama as you must know that government has become so bloated under George W.Bush despite his undoubted belief in the "drown it in the bathtub" mantra. there has never been an administration in the USA that has groaned along under it's weight as the present one.

What makes it even worse is that it's been utterly incompetant as we are now seeing.

As for Liberals dear Henry-you will have to define that term more clearly as it means different things in different places. In Australia the Liberals are the right wing party, as in Canada where they are fairly centrist. In the UK the Liberal Democrats are the most sane party , neither left or right wing but a party of extremely sensible policies that couldn't frighten anyone as opposed to the Conservative Party and Nu Labour who are both competing as to who can pursue Raeganomics to it's furtherst madness and who make Thatchersim look like an afternoon tea party. I fear your Liberals may be the type that the hideous Ann Coulter screeches about or the quite balmy Bill O'Reilly starts going boggle eyed , red faced with steam pouring from his ears at the mention of.

NB: The mutli-billionaire George Soros who predicted today's events 5 years ago has announced that the era of Reagan economics and globalisation has finally had a stake plunged through it's heart, is kaput and over for all time and all of us should be very nice to Russia)

Indeed, I can count two great mistakes (Lets leave out the recent ones)of America, one was the demise of the Indians , second the slavery issue. I belong to an indian tribe in the south and most of my ancestors on both sides were Indian, however that does not make me want to vote for Obama

Wesley

Hi Wes,
I'm of Cherokee descent myself.....and a Libertarian/Objectivist. Uggggg, I couldn't possibly vote for a socialist like.........well, like all of them!!!

best sex I ever had was with a descendant Navaho Indian....& hung!

[Wesley]

I am a card carrying Tuscarora, My ancestors were reocated to New York on a reservation where they all died eventualy, My group stayed behind and assimilated into the new American culture. In time the decendents were looked up and found I was called and ask to come to the meeting where several memebers were aded that particuar night. Although, I knew I had indian decnet I had no idea it was of both sides of the famiily. When a kid I had black hair so black it would shine blue black when the sun hit it. Sorry to day its mostly grey now but I still have most of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscarora_Indian_tribe

[Wesley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscarora_Indian_tribe

I was originally ask to join the tribe 15 years ago and did, in my youth I had black hair that when wet shined blue black it was so black. Our group was defeated as in the link, some moved to New York; others stayed behind as did my group and we eventually were assimilated into the new culture. Anyone interested can look at the link above.

Wes

Really, this guy deserves his own thread. To even try to pretend that he's not up to his filthy neck in American politics is ridiculous.


NB: The mutli-billionaire George Soros who predicted today's events 5 years ago has announced that the era of Reagan economics and globalisation has finally had a stake plunged through it's heart, is kaput and over for all time and all of us should be very nice to Russia)

I trust Soros just about as far as I can throw him.

As for "Jesus the Socialist," that's an old, bad idea which will not withstand examination. I have spent years trying to make sense out of this possibly non-existent man -- although I think he actually existed and was painted in a hundred different ways. But if we go right back to the Gospel of Mark, and actually READ IT and take notes, we will note that Jesus miraculously healed the sick, and performed demonic exorcisms as well. (One was supposedly for physical illnesses, the other for mental illnesses, although Jesus screwed up on the epileptic.) We also find (as did A. Schweitzer in "The Quest for the Historical Jesus") that Jesus repeatedly predicted the imminent end of the world, within the lifetime of his disciples. As a result, Jesus did not much care about Planet Earth or fixing it: EVERYTHING was to be abandoned to arrive at moral perfection before the Sound of the Trumpet. Marriage and children? Forget it. Your property? Sell it and give it to the poor. Your parents? Abandon them if they don't see the light. "For I tell you, the time we live in will not be long...."

The poor loonie was wrong, of course, giving rise to a theological problem known politely as The Delayed Parousia.

A lot of sources tell us that the early church held things in common, but the early church was not something to get all sentimental and teary-eyed about. As recounted in the New Testament, the early Christians bullied old folks out of their live savings, causing death in the process, and one of the most prominent rankings in that egalitarian church was "Exorcist."

And, at the end of the day, the "fact" that Jesus was supposedly a "socialist" does nothing to suggest that socialism works. The biggest loonie in history supposedly recommended it, and we are supposed to treat that as somehow interesting?

This is about as crazy as saying that Buddha was a socialist. Well, there are probably people who say that as well.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

well dear Henry-you better hope that Socialism does work because that's what you are getting today with a huge dose of it in the USA with the "bail-out" (read-Mother of all scams)

I know George Soros is unpopular-with Republicans-but I reckon a man who went to London and worked as a waiter for 5 years and worked the Stock Market at the same time-hoping to make $500,000 as an amount he thought would do him for the rest of his life..but actually made one billion dollars in that time does actually know a thing or 2 about the market.

Incidently-the latest on the bizarre Bill Ayes phoney "scandal" ( the one who did someting naughty when Barak Obama was 8 years old) is now taking a rather odd twist as it is revealed the very famous American Annenberg family-staunch Republicans and donaters to the McCain campaign-actually fronted up with $50Million dollars for Bill Ayes to finance his education program. Not sure where that leaves Sarah Apalin.

No wonder senior Republicans are tearing their hair out as McCain/Apalin stumble from one disaster to another. (and still-they haven't produced an actual policy apart from "Mavericks" and "something must be done")

I tend to agree with God Vidal..Obama will win (only because a 50 state landslide will prevent a Republican corruption of those wretched voing machines. ) but somewhere along the line..dear Barak will be assasinated (the regular way disafected Yanks do away with those they despise).

I think this will be terribly sad. We are curently watching a very decent part black American who will make history as the first black American president but he will die in office. Possibly he even knows that himself. Sometimes these things are bigger than the individual. At least he will leave a legacy. Whether Americans can reverse the awful hatred that has been breeding over the past few years-driven by a handful but not representative of the majority, is something only time will tell.

Thank God I am old man. 39 last year.

well dear Henry-you better hope that Socialism does work because that's what you are getting today with a huge dose of it in the USA with the "bail-out" (read-Mother of all scams)

I know George Soros is unpopular-with Republicans-but I reckon a man who went to London and worked as a waiter for 5 years and worked the Stock Market at the same time-hoping to make $500,000 as an amount he thought would do him for the rest of his life..but actually made one billion dollars in that time does actually know a thing or 2 about the market.

Incidently-the latest on the bizarre Bill Ayes phoney "scandal" ( the one who did someting naughty when Barak Obama was 8 years old) is now taking a rather odd twist as it is revealed the very famous American Annenberg family-staunch Republicans and donaters to the McCain campaign-actually fronted up with $50Million dollars for Bill Ayes to finance his education program. Not sure where that leaves Sarah Apalin.

No wonder senior Republicans are tearing their hair out as McCain/Apalin stumble from one disaster to another. (and still-they haven't produced an actual policy apart from "Mavericks" and "something must be done")

I tend to agree with God Vidal..Obama will win (only because a 50 state landslide will prevent a Republican corruption of those wretched voing machines. ) but somewhere along the line..dear Barak will be assasinated (the regular way disafected Yanks do away with those they despise).

I think this will be terribly sad. We are curently watching a very decent part black American who will make history as the first black American president but he will die in office. Possibly he even knows that himself. Sometimes these things are bigger than the individual. At least he will leave a legacy. Whether Americans can reverse the awful hatred that has been breeding over the past few years-driven by a handful but not representative of the majority, is something only time will tell.

Thank God I am old man. 39 last year.

Frankly, this is the stupidest posting I have ever read on any forum anywhere. Sleep it off, Lunchtime.

[Wesley]

Oh well, I think as much of Sorus and his move on Dot org as I do Barack, they both get the same the casting, "blokes with no hope."...

What can I say Henry... if Jesus did it, certainly its good enough fo me, All we need now is for Sorus to turn the water in tp wine, then the one world goverment can begin to make its way onto the main stage. We can drunk off the wine then who cares. Besides I like the Canadians. Its he Indians making all that money gambeling on the reservation I can't stand. Shurly the great Spirit looks on in dismay.

Its lunchtime and his Russian Grandmother we need to be worried about.

Wes

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"Frankly, this is the stupidest posting I have ever read on any forum anywhere. Sleep it off, Lunchtime."

and forum anywhere..in the world ?..such a compliment and yet it's Homitern who gets the votes.

("Sleep it off"...I did)

("Sleep it off"...I did)Christ yes, the snoring was unbelievable

Yes, the Republicans under Lincoln fought to free the slaves and the Democrats at the same time were the party of the South and the KKK. But when the moneyed classes took over the Republican Party it drove the working class urban poor to the Democrats who for a long time made an uneasy alliance with the Southern racists and rural religious nutballs.
The Democrat Party shattered in the 1960's when the strains got too much. The racists and religous nuts left and went instead to the Republican Party under Reagan's "Big Tent" policy.

And now the Republican party is feeling the strain and is about to shatter. Racists and Zealots have nothing to do with traditional Republican ideology and the sooner they leave the better.

Maybe the Racists and Zealots can join up with Lyndon LaRouche where they belong.