Motorcy or not motorcy ... ?

[Smiles]

Into my second year of delicious long-termism am now confronted with a minor dilemma (oh yee middle class problems ... life's soooo difficult!): should I purchase a motorbike or not?

So much cheaper for around-town hopping (as opposed to unsheathing the Great Gas Hog ~ my dearest's status symbol ~ for a trip to Tesco or Look Narm). [/*:m:1stm669z]
So cheap to buy in Thailand: a good used one (face-looser, non-status symbol) can be had for 15-20,000, a new one with no fancy stuff for 10,000 more.[/*:m:1stm669z]
So easy to navigate in traffic mess: I've had many a motorbike in my time, and taken several high speed turns around the TT course at the Isle of Man, so I am highly familar with the operation.[/*:m:1stm669z]
So nice to hop on when The Man is away on his tourist trips/traps (as yesterday to Si Saket, leaving me high and dry and all lonely ony a week and a half since landing): just to feel that big throbbing high Up There between my legs . . . cheap thrills between sessions.[/*:m:1stm669z]
So nice to hop on when The Man is away on his tourist trips/traps: to visit local temples, palaces, caves, waterfalls, etc etc all by myself[/*:m:1stm669z]
So nice to pull up to my local HH pool hall with my expensive two-piecer and my new motorcy (just like the Thai guys!). I've arrived!![/*:m:1stm669z]

BUT THEN THERE'S:

The danger! The possibilities of a crash. The downtime. The roadrash. The legal issues. The hospital costs. The police presence. All of things (and more!) raise worrying speculation: not least among these ... do I really need the damn thing in the first place?

One of my close-to-the-chest goals during my long stays in Thailand is to keep miles away from (1) The Cops, and (2) Hospitals and doctors in general, and (3) Homintern (but another story). Motorcycles alone assure that these goals are more difficult to achieve.
Thai people drive like maniacs at all times . . . they put all reasonable people (of whom I count myself one, at least on the road) at high risk through no fault of their own. Is it a risk worth taking?

I don't know. I'm not sure. Yesterday I was standing in front of a sweet little blue 2nd hand 125cc Yamaha and counting out the baht. I slapped myself silly moments later and walked away bike-less, but almost turned back ... only to be the coincidental witness to a minor rear-ender of a car by a minibus right in front of me. It was caused ~ soooo unnecessarily ~ simply for the fact that the minibus was tailgating. And tailgating ~ severely ~ is, along with speed, a Thais national motoring sport. In that small crash (no one was hurt) if it had of been a motorbike behind he would have been lying on top of the car, moaning.

My inner damn-the-torpedoes nature does not seem to interject in this choice, this time. The stacked odds in favour of potential disaster (both minor and horrendous) seem to make the choice easy . . . and for only one reason: because This is Thailand (TiT).

(Please do not misunderstand. I'm well aware that other places (I've driven in bloody Barcelona) have their share of crazies behind the wheel, some I'm sure even to a greater extent than Thailand. But I've not been contemplating buying a motorbike in any other place. Just here.)

Cheers ...

... is that (certainly the BUPA policy for Thais) some health insurance policies cover only half the cost of any treatment occasioned while on a motorcycle. Motorcycles are also more often the focus of police attention - for a bit of a shakedown for their lunch money. My vote was option 4, if you're in any doubt

[topjohn5]

I am a self-described adrenaline junky and participate in far to many high risk activities for fun.....I'm a pilot and fly ultralights, I skydive, scuba dive, mountain climb, whitewater raft, etc. And, everytime I got on a motorcycle I fe;t it was the most dangerous activity I ever did.....I simply have stopped that activity as I concidered the risk too great. And, that is in the USA, hahahah. I can't imagine doing it in another country with fewer rules.
Here are some stats from the NTSB:
-Some 104,000 motorcycles were involved in crashes in 2006, including property damage-only crashes, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
-Motorcyclists were 35 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash in 2006, per vehicle mile traveled, and eight times more likely to be injured,according to NHTSA.
-The fatality rate for motorcyclists in 2006 was 5.5 times the fatality rate for passenger car occupants per registered vehicle, according to the latest data from NHTSA.
Think about it seriously....I have lost a couple of friends that way and also had others permenantly crippled......

[jinks]

(Please do not misunderstand. I'm well aware that other places (I've driven in bloody Barcelona) have their share of crazies behind the wheel, some I'm sure even to a greater extent than Thailand. But I've not been contemplating buying a motorbike in any other place. Just here.)

Cheers ...


Barcelona is easy, nice big roads with a semi-literate population that all drive in the same suicidal manner.

Try driving as I have in New Delhi or Jakarta and you would not hesitate to vote NEVER in a month in Sundays.

Do you drink smiles?

How many nights a week would you have to consider leaving it parked somewhere or having someone else drive you home?

I see the vote is currently 49% for and, um, 49% against. That should help you make up your mind.

[bing]

I am one of the "with trepidation' guys. In days of yore I have had a 15 year period of life when I owned a motorcycle, so I do understand the dangers involved. For running out to Jomtien or to restaurant, I suck it up and hop on the back of cycle and head off. My greatest fear comes from having to put on the helmet that has been used by countless others. Perhaps I am a bit bugaphobic (hmmm perhaps a new word), but I really grit my teeth as I fasten the chin strap. Actually, I don't mind the baht bus and use one a couple of times a day to get around. If I go to the Bakery for breakfast, the Baht bus would be first choice, but if going to Jomtien, I like the ability to drive down to the parking area of the beach so the walk is only a minute or two to Rits chairs.

Since you already have a car, you should get a motorcycle for short trips down almost empty sois. Most people who are wealthy enough to own a Real Car also keep a motorbike handy. I use mine mostly to go to the mall and back, a trip of almost one kilometer. (!) I also use it to zoom over to Nimmanhemin Road in the mornings: it's easy and convenient.

However, I think some cultural confusion enters here. I would never take my bike onto the Chiang Mai Superhighway, and would never ride it on fast dangerous roads like that, whereas most American motorcycle fans seem to do nothing BUT that.

As for your cheap second-hand bike, no no! Get an AirBlade, or a Fino!!

But, then again, the gay farang living next door to me is American, and has an apparently unsurmountable hatred of motorbikes. HE drives a car, and his boyfriend rides a BICYCLE (or walks). Don't do that!! Real bicycles are much MORE dangerous than motorbikes. They don't move with the speed of traffic, they offer absolutely no protection against collisions. Etc.

But, of course, even walking is not totally safe. Up to you! But I will add that I've been driving a motorbike in Chiang Mai for 7-8 years without mishap. I guess when you see elderly female English teachers get on their Honda Dreams and motor home...you may wonder about the whole thing.

[ceejay]

Hi Smiles
I put "yes - with trepidation" - I'm not sure I would have the bottle to go through with it in your position - I gave up bikes here in England a good few years ago. That was partly the growing realisation that my reflexes were not what they once were - and that I suppose is true for most of us here. It was also understanding that on a bike your life is not in your own hands - it depends on the behaviour of car drivers. On the other hand, I did ride bikes in Central London for a good few years, so I like to think I could hack it in Thai traffic (in Hua Hin or Pattaya anyway - wouldn't dream of trying it in Bangkok).

You mention getting a 125cc. If I did it, I would go for something bigger. I am convinced that bigger, more powerful bikes are actually safer. A minor reason is that I found that the more road I filled, the more space car drivers gave me. But the main reason for more powerful bikes is not speed - it's acceleration. It gives you that extra way out in a tight corner - straight ahead into the gap that would close if you waited for the lag you get before the acceleration kicks in with a 125. If you are being tailgated, then you can you can get 50 yards ahead of anything by opening up a 500 - then pull over and let the c**t go by.

A suggestion - why don't you hire one for, say a month? If at the end of that you are still alive and haven't shit yourself, then you might consider buying one.

[francois]

Same as others, voted with trepidation. After falling over on my bike at home, while stopped, decided to sell and quit riding.
But answer to question is easy to ride or not ride; you WILL have an accident, can you take that risk? Knowing that, almost all riders in Thailand wear no protective equipment.
Suicide by motorbike.

I think riding in the Kingdom presents risks - they are all trying to kill you - that are not unlike riding in Europe or North America, so yes, getting a motorcy is a viable thing to do with the following caveat:Do not get a motorcycle unless you are prepared to accept the fact that every motorcycle accident is the fault of the rider.

As a motorcyclist in an accident, you are likely to suffer bodily harm and, as a consequence, you must take responsibility for everyone else's actions as well as your own.

This means being tuned into not only yourself, your bike, and your environment but also being aware of other drivers, correctly anticipating their behavior and effectively avoiding hazards before they put you at risk. Ideally, a skilled rider avoids hazards even before they become hazards.

The only things that you can do to be safe are: read, train, explore your bike's limits and your own, train, wear the appropriate gear and train.

Books that can help are:

Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well by David L. Hough

More Proficient Motorcycling: Mastering the Ride by David L. Hough

Ride Hard, Ride Smart: Ultimate Street Strategies for Advanced Motorcyclists by Patrick Hahn

The Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Guide to Motorcycling Excellence: Skills, Knowledge, and Strategies for Riding Right (2nd Edition) by Motorcycle Safety Foundation

[francois]

Great advice, Taschizzie, but will anyone read and heed? Even a pair of leather gloves is beyond most riders compr├йhension.

[ceejay]

Good post Taschizzie, I agree with all of it.

Hi Smiles, as someone that has ridden motorbikes since I was sixteen years old and taken many courses over the years, the last of these being advanced Proficiency tests in the UK which were conducted by the police, let me say that whilst Thailand may not be the safest place in the world in which to ride motorbikes, it is also a long way from being the most dangerous. You don't say in your post, whether or not you have any experience of having ridden Bikes before and the answer to this question, would have a lot of bearing in what my advice to you would be.

I have always ridden big bikes and have done so during the last fifteen years of my living in Thailand and my current bike which I have owned for the last seven years, is a 750 cc Honda Trans alp. With the greatest of respect to all of the other members that have posted in your thread, the only member in my opinion who seems like a real biker and a reasonably experienced one, evident to me not only by what he said, but also the advice he gave, is ceejay.

The reason my question about your experience as a bike rider above was so important, is without knowing this, the only thing ceejay says that I would definitely disagree with him on, is when he says that if he were you, he would go for a much more powerful bike. However, on the other hand, if unlike me he knows for certain that you are someone that does have previous experience, I would agree with his advice to get a more powerful bike wholeheartedly.

Any experienced biker would know without doubt, the complete and total logic there is in ceejay's words, when he says: I am convinced that bigger, more powerful bikes are actually safer. A minor reason is that I found that the more road I filled, the more space car drivers gave me. But the main reason for more powerful bikes is not speed - it's acceleration. It gives you that extra way out in a tight corner - straight ahead into the gap that would close if you waited for the lag you get before the acceleration kicks in with a 125. If you are being tailgated, then you can you can get 50 yards ahead of anything by opening up a 500 - then pull over and let the c**t go by.

I couldn't agree more and completely endorse what ceejay has said above. Providing you have good road sense, maintain total concentration at all times, are always prepared for the unexpected, an absolute necessity here with the road sense of the majority of Thais, where they are more than likely to enter a main road from a side one, without thinking for a second of stopping: and when riding, you always try to predict what the actions of other bike riders are likely to be. If you can succeed in doing all of the above, although I know it sounds rather a lot, I can assure you that it is something that becomes more easier than you would imagine, the more practice you have in doing it, than unlike what a lot of members here believe to be the case, you have a more than a reasonable chance of staying accident free.

When I say above, that you should always try and predict what the actions of other bike riders are likely to be, you will be absolutely amazed at how successful you will become at this after a while, whereby your predictions will most likely be proved to be accurate ones, more than 90 per cent of the time. My one and only motor bike accident in Thailand, was the one I gave an account of on TT, where something I had predicted on hundreds of occasions before, I failed for the first time in doing so when one of those bikes of the type I mentioned above, came straight out of a side road onto the main one as well as straight out in front of me.

Although having seen him late, I was already breaking and was hardly moving when through my loss of balance, I toppled over sideways. In doing so, the only damage done to me, was by my bike coming down on top of me and onto my ankle. Whilst my ankle was sore for a couple of weeks, I can tell you in all honesty, that something hurt much more than my ankle, was my pride.

In closing Smiles, let me give you a little horror story on the subject of those more powerful bikes. It has never ceased to amaze me as an experienced bike rider, why certain farang who have never ridden a bike in their entire lives, decide on a whim that it would be "fun" to go and rent a bike of 500 cc power or one of an even higher cc, from the vendors along Beach Road. These vendors as you all know very well, are only too pleased to accept the money of these farang, and will never ask for a driving license when doing so. This type of farang in Pattaya, has always been one that is an accident looking for somewhere to happen and many of them, find that somewhere very quickly. In stark contrast to having "fun", let me tell you that I have seen more of these guys over the years I have resided here than I care to remember, whom when returning to their homeland, have done so in a body bag.

So there you go Smiles, cases of the good, the bad and the ugly in what I have said above. However, I am certain that you are a person that is sensible enough based on the experience you have, who will make whatever decision that is needed, to be the right one for you.


Choc Dee Smiles in whatever you decide to do,


George.

Smiles,

It seems obvious that riding a bike in Hua Hin is possible. Hundreds do it every day: most have no training.

So get trained and up your chances for safe rides.

The two words that advanced level riders use which have not been mentioned here are "conspicuity" and "dominance."

Conspicuity is the quality of being conspicuous; in motorcycle terms, you have to be seen so that they know to miss you. Reflective vests, bright colors (lime green, neon pink), white helmet, bright riding gloves and armbands, reflective stickers, and things like headlight and taillight modulators are some of the safety steps you can take.

The other word, dominance, is a bit trickier. It really means owning the lane that you are in and by owning it, you intimidate so that no other vehicle will attempt to share it. This is more of a wish than a reality in Thailand as drivers will attempt to crowd your space if you ride in the traditional spots on either side of the centre of your lane. If you are too close to the kerb or the centre line, they feel free get beside you to leaving you no option but to defer.

Right of way really is theoretical because, as a rider, you have no choice but to keep yourself out of harm's way regardless of your rights.

**********

The Hurt Report, although old, is the only comprehensive study of motorcycle accidents available. Here is a summary of its findings

1. Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most often a passenger automobile.

2. Approximately one-fourth of these motorcycle accidents were single vehicle accidents involving the motorcycle colliding with the roadway or some fixed object in the environment.

3. Vehicle failure accounted for less than 3% of these motorcycle accidents, and most of those were single vehicle accidents where control was lost due to a puncture flat.

4. In single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slideout and fall due to overbraking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.

5. Roadway defects (pavement ridges, potholes, etc.) were the accident cause in 2% of the accidents; animal involvement was 1% of the accidents.

6. In multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents.

7. The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents. The driver of the other vehicle involved in collision with the motorcycle did not see the motorcycle before the collision, or did not see the motorcycle until too late to avoid the collision.

8. Deliberate hostile action by a motorist against a motorcycle rider is a rare accident cause. The most frequent accident configuration is the motorcycle proceeding straight then the automobile makes a left turn in front of the oncoming motorcycle.

10. Intersections are the most likely place for the motorcycle accident, with the other vehicle violating the motorcycle right-of-way, and often violating traffic controls.

11. Weather is not a factor in 98% of motorcycle accidents.

12. Most motorcycle accidents involve a short trip associated with shopping, errands, friends, entertainment or recreation, and the accident is likely to happen in a very short time close to the trip origin.

13. The view of the motorcycle or the other vehicle involved in the accident is limited by glare or obstructed by other vehicles in almost half of the multiple vehicle accidents.

14. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets.

15. Fuel system leaks and spills were present in 62% of the motorcycle accidents in the post-crash phase. This represents an undue hazard for fire.

16. The median pre-crash speed was 29.8 mph, and the median crash speed was 21.5 mph, and the one-in-a-thousand crash speed is approximately 86 mph.

17. The typical motorcycle pre-crash lines-of-sight to the traffic hazard portray no contribution of the limits of peripheral vision; more than three-fourths of all accident hazards are within 45deg of either side of straight ahead.

18. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is most critical for the frontal surfaces of the motorcycle and rider.

19. Vehicle defects related to accident causation are rare and likely to be due to deficient or defective maintenance.

20. Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly overrepresented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly underrepresented. Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female motorcycles riders are significantly overrepresented in the accident data.

22. Craftsmen, laborers, and students comprise most of the accident-involved motorcycle riders. Professionals, sales workers, and craftsmen are underrepresented and laborers, students and unemployed are overrepresented in the accidents.

23. Motorcycle riders with previous recent traffic citations and accidents are overrepresented in the accident data.

24. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

25. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly underrepresented in the accident data.

26. Lack of attention to the driving task is a common factor for the motorcyclist in an accident.

27. Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.

28. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent.

29. The typical motorcycle accident allows the motorcyclist just less than 2 seconds to complete all collision avoidance action.

30. Passenger-carrying motorcycles are not overrepresented in the accident area.

31. The driver of the other vehicles involved in collision with the motorcycle are not distinguished from other accident populations except that the ages of 20 to 29, and beyond 65 are overrepresented. Also, these drivers are generally unfamiliar with motorcycles.

32. Large displacement motorcycles are underrepresented in accidents but they are associated with higher injury severity when involved in accidents.

33. Any effect of motorcycle color on accident involvement is not determinable from these data, but is expected to be insignificant because the frontal surfaces are most often presented to the other vehicle involved in the collision.

34. Motorcycles equipped with fairings and windshields are underrepresented in accidents, most likely because of the contribution to conspicuity and the association with more experienced and trained riders.

35. Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, without any license, or with license revoked.

36. Motorcycle modifications such as those associated with the semi-chopper or cafe racer are definitely overrepresented in accidents.

37. The likelihood of injury is extremely high in these motorcycle accidents-98% of the multiple vehicle collisions and 96% of the single vehicle accidents resulted in some kind of injury to the motorcycle rider; 45% resulted in more than a minor injury.

38. Half of the injuries to the somatic regions were to the ankle-foot, lower leg, knee, and thigh-upper leg.

39. Crash bars are not an effective injury countermeasure; the reduction of injury to the ankle-foot is balanced by increase of injury to the thigh-upper leg, knee, and lower leg.

40. The use of heavy boots, jacket, gloves, etc., is effective in preventing or reducing abrasions and lacerations, which are frequent but rarely severe injuries.

41. Groin injuries were sustained by the motorcyclist in at least 13% of the accidents, which typified by multiple vehicle collision in frontal impact at higher than average speed.

42. Injury severity increases with speed, alcohol involvement and motorcycle size.

43. Seventy-three percent of the accident-involved motorcycle riders used no eye protection, and it is likely that the wind on the unprotected eyes contributed in impairment of vision which delayed hazard detection.

44. Approximately 50% of the motorcycle riders in traffic were using safety helmets but only 40% of the accident-involved motorcycle riders were wearing helmets at the time of the accident.

45. Voluntary safety helmet use by those accident-involved motorcycle riders was lowest for untrained, uneducated, young motorcycle riders on hot days and short trips.

46. The most deadly injuries to the accident victims were injuries to the chest and head.

47. The use of the safety helmet is the single critical factor in the prevention of reduction of head injury; the safety helmet which complies with FMVSS 218 is a significantly effective injury countermeasure.

48. Safety helmet use caused no attenuation of critical traffic sounds, no limitation of precrash visual field, and no fatigue or loss of attention; no element of accident causation was related to helmet use.

49. FMVSS 218 provides a high level of protection in traffic accidents, and needs modification only to increase coverage at the back of the head and demonstrate impact protection of the front of full facial coverage helmets, and insure all adult sizes for traffic use are covered by the standard.

50. Helmeted riders and passengers showed significantly lower head and neck injury for all types of injury, at all levels of injury severity.

51. The increased coverage of the full facial coverage helmet increases protection, and significantly reduces face injuries.

52. There is no liability for neck injury by wearing a safety helmet; helmeted riders had less neck injuries than unhelmeted riders. Only four minor injuries were attributable to helmet use, and in each case the helmet prevented possible critical or fatal head injury.

53. Sixty percent of the motorcyclists were not wearing safety helmets at the time of the accident. Of this group, 26% said they did not wear helmets because they were uncomfortable and inconvenient, and 53% simply had no expectation of accident involvement.

54. Valid motorcycle exposure data can be obtained only from collection at the traffic site. Motor vehicle or driver license data presents information which is completely unrelated to actual use.

55. Less than 10% of the motorcycle riders involved in these accidents had insurance of any kind to provide medical care or replace property.

Hi Taschizzie, whilst I believe that the Hurt report was a very good one for it's time, the statistics used by him, were ones that were acquired from motorcycle accidents occurring in only one geographical area of the United States. May I ask you, that if it were possible for similar statistics to be acquired, whereby they were ones resulting in all accidents involving motorcycles in Pattaya last year, how closely do you think they would resemble those ones of Hurts, that were carried out in California in 1981?

In regard to your comments about being conspicuous as a motorbike rider, I don't know how many are aware of this fact, but it is now a law here in Thailand and has been for some time, that all motorcycles must be driven with their headlights on at all times. On most of the latest models of bikes, most certainly in the case of Honda, headlights are something that come on immediately the ignition of the bike is switched on, much in the same way as the Volvo car always did and which was the pioneer in this particular field. I believe that by having your headlights on during the day, it goes a very long way toward increasing the conspicuousness of motorbike riders.

However, whilst I would agree it would possibly make sense to go to such lengths in farangworld, as I know many already do, are you seriously suggesting when the majority of Thais don't even wear a properly endorsed safety standard crash helmet, there is ever going to be a possibility of seeing them in: Reflective vests of bright colors such as lime green or neon pink and wearing bright riding gloves and armbands, whilst having reflective stickers, and things like headlight and taillight modulators on their bikes? I personally doubt it very much and to be honest with you, I could never see Smiles wearing such a get up.

Now whilst I believe that knowledge of the basic safety rules, is something all motorbike riders should be aware of before being allowed on the roads, rules by the way which I am sure you are aware of, that the majority of Thai bike riders have absolutely no idea whatsoever of, I think where other things are concerned, such as the ones you have mentioned, one has to be realistic toward the levels that it can ever be hoped will be achieved here. Don't think I am knocking what you say for one minute, I am not, I am just saying that the expectations as to what can be achieved here in Thailand, is a little bit over optimistic on your part.

I would be far happier if it became a law, that all bike riders in Thailand, had to pass a test in which they would have to show they are competent enough to be allowed on the road, show by passing a written test that they have knowledge of those basic safety rules I spoke of above and last but certainly not least, they would have to be in possession of a driving license, as proof of having undergone such a test.

On reflection Taschizzie, perhaps my believing that there is a possibility that what I suggested could ever be achieved here, is no doubt a case of me now being over optimistic. On even further reflection, I believe before the day ever arrives, I will be seeing Smiles go whizzing past me, wearing a bright neon pink vest, with matching gloves and armbands. If that day should ever arrive, whilst Smiles would most certainly be conspicuous in such an outfit, he would be a long way off where it could ever be said, that he was displaying any sign of his dominance. Wouldn't you agree? ;)


Cheers Taschizzie,



George.

I can't balance myself worth a damn. Can't even ride a bycycle. One time boyfriend tried to take me somewhere and we didn't get 100 feet before I almost tipped us both over.

To top it off boyfriend called last night saying he was just in another accident ( 2nd time this year) and it sounds pretty bad. A dog jumped out and bit him as he was going by and he lost control and literally "kissed" the pavement. Three bad cuts on his mouth needing stitches - luckily no teeth broken. And he needs rabies shots.

So that's it for me and "motos". Take me out of the "undecided" camp for good. :velo:

[francois]

In regard to your comments about being conspicuous as a motorbike rider, I don't know how many are aware of this fact, but it is now a law here in Thailand and has been for some time, that all motorcycles must be driven with their headlights on at all times. On most of the latest models of bikes, most certainly in the case of Honda, headlights are something that come on immediately the ignition of the bike is switched
George.

Yes, George; That is why they have a basket in front of the light to obscure the light! Functionality first, s├йcurit├й last. And a law in Thailand? 555 You do joke?

George,

I wasn't addressing you when I posted about conspicuity, dominance, and the Hurt report, I was addressing Smiles and so I really don't understand why you seem to think that I would be interested in what you so condescendingly say in error about my posting.

I am an experienced rider, as you purport to be but mostly on larger bikes than your 750 cc Honda and I've seen many hundreds of thousands of miles and spent many months in the (motorcycle) saddle, as you may have.

But I didn't want to list my credentials and set myself up as the Big Motocy Kahuna here as you have, I wanted to be seen as a safe and knowledgeable rider.

So your patronizing comment about "rules by the way which I am sure you are aware of" really isn't necessary but thank you for judging and finding adequate my level of skill nonetheless.

I also have long-term experience in the Kingdom as you apparently do.

As well, my grasp of the obvious is at least as good as yours and frankly, after your last post, I'm inclined to think it is better.

Your comment that my ... expectations as to what can be achieved here in Thailand, is a little bit over optimistic... addresses nothing that I said or implied. I have no expectations as to what can be achieved here nor did I state any.

And even though you started dumping on something that I didn't say by posting "are you seriously suggesting...", I seriously suggested nothing.

What I did do is list some concepts, wardrobe accessories, and the results of a report.

As to the applicability of the Hurt report to possible Thai accident statistics, well duh!!

Please feel free to guess what I would have said here using words like clear, plain, evident, apparent, manifest, patent, conspicuous, pronounced, palpable, prominent, marked, decided, distinct, noticeable, unmissable, perceptible, visible, discernible; unmistakable, indisputable, self-evident, incontrovertible, incontestable, undeniable, beyond doubt, beyond question, as clear as day, staring someone in the face; overt, undisguised, unconcealed, frank, glaring, blatant, written all over someone; as plain as the nose on one's face, sticking/standing out like a sore thumb, and right under one's nose.

I would hope that in the future you fully read posts you intend to try and score points from and adjust your attitude to be less confrontational.

Even though you were in total error as to what I said, adopting a more kreng jai approach would be a balm to your reputation.

Taschizzie.

P.S. I think Smiles would look divine in a bright neon pink vest so long as the matching gloves were opera length. As to dominance, even though our formerly Canadian comrade might look a little nelly in his riding ensemble, I understand that some pre-op ladyboys are fierce tops.

Ask Francois about that...

[PeterUK]

Sounds to me as if you really want to do this, Smiles. You're an experienced motorbike rider and Hua Hin is not the most dangerous place in Thailand to drive by a long chalk. My advice would be to go for it. I've used motorcycle taxis several times a week for three years now in Pattaya (which IS dangerous) and can only recall a couple of hairy moments. I don't let these things worry me. In fact, the other day I dozed off on the back of a motorcycle taxi for a few seconds. I took that to mean that I have finally become acclimatised to Thailand - either that or my will to live is slipping away.

[thrillbill]

I am a self-described adrenaline junky and participate in far to many high risk activities for fun.....I'm a pilot and fly ultralights, I skydive, scuba dive, mountain climb, whitewater raft, etc. And, everytime I got on a motorcycle I fe;t it was the most dangerous activity I ever did.....I simply have stopped that activity as I concidered the risk too great. And, that is in the USA, hahahah. I can't imagine doing it in another country with fewer rules.
Here are some stats from the NTSB:
-Some 104,000 motorcycles were involved in crashes in 2006, including property damage-only crashes, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
-Motorcyclists were 35 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash in 2006, per vehicle mile traveled, and eight times more likely to be injured,according to NHTSA.
-The fatality rate for motorcyclists in 2006 was 5.5 times the fatality rate for passenger car occupants per registered vehicle, according to the latest data from NHTSA.
Think about it seriously....I have lost a couple of friends that way and also had others permenantly crippled......
__________________________________________________ _______________
...and Topjohn, you may add this interesting fact: The states (provinces for some of you) in America that do NOT require one to wear a helmet when driving their motorcycle are the biggest contributors to "live" organs that can be used in medical transplants such as kidney, heart, lung... My brother-in-law luckily received a matching kidney from oneof those states that do not require helmets to be worn.

[Dodger]

I wouldn't reside in LOS (or holiday there) without a motocy.

I've been renting a motocy for the 4 months/year I visit LOS and would be lost without it.

Driving a motocy has completely altered my holiday lifestyle by adding more flexibility and broadening the areas/places I visit on the normal day. No more cramped and pokey song teaws, or worse yet, having my balls crushed sitting on the back of one while wearing one of those rediculous plastic toys on my head that would splinter into a thousand pieces if I were to ever need it.

I like the flexibility of being able to just buzz off at any given moment without having to think about public transportation.

Smiles, if you decide to take the plunge, look at the new model Yamaha Elegante. It's better suited for a farang with a more powerful engine and a little heavier suspension that's really tight and responsive (don't get any dirty thoughts here). It costs a bit more than the best selling Yamaha Nouvo's and Honda Click's you see all over the place (47,000 - 50,000 bt for the automatic version), but believe me, it's worth the extra cash. They are more powerful than the other standard motocy's and offer much better road stability IMO. Also...you would want to consider the optional aluminum rims versus the spoked wheels because of the road conditions in LOS. You would pay more up front, but get more life out of the bike with lower maintenance costs along the way.

Go for it Smiles...you'll have a blast !

P.S. What ever you do, don't buy one of those second hand jalopy's, unless of course, you've been to the doctors recently and he told you not to buy any green bananas. And while you're at it (you cheap bugger) buy one for Suphot, he desrves it !

[Beachlover]

Since you already have a car, you should get a motorcycle for short trips down almost empty sois. Most people who are wealthy enough to own a Real Car also keep a motorbike handy. I use mine mostly to go to the mall and back, a trip of almost one kilometer. (!) I also use it to zoom over to Nimmanhemin Road in the mornings: it's easy and convenient.

However, I think some cultural confusion enters here. I would never take my bike onto the Chiang Mai Superhighway, and would never ride it on fast dangerous roads like that, whereas most American motorcycle fans seem to do nothing BUT that.

As for your cheap second-hand bike, no no! Get an AirBlade, or a Fino!!

But, then again, the gay farang living next door to me is American, and has an apparently unsurmountable hatred of motorbikes. HE drives a car, and his boyfriend rides a BICYCLE (or walks). Don't do that!! Real bicycles are much MORE dangerous than motorbikes. They don't move with the speed of traffic, they offer absolutely no protection against collisions. Etc.

But, of course, even walking is not totally safe. Up to you! But I will add that I've been driving a motorbike in Chiang Mai for 7-8 years without mishap. I guess when you see elderly female English teachers get on their Honda Dreams and motor home...you may wonder about the whole thing.

For short trips down empty sois and to the mall... maybe a bicycle would be just as easy.

George,

I wasn't addressing you when I posted about conspicuity, dominance, and the Hurt report, I was addressing Smiles and so I really don't understand why you seem to think that I would be interested in what you so condescendingly say in error about my posting.



If you wish to address and advise Smiles solely in regard to his post and do not want anyone else to comment on your own posts, than may I advise that perhaps you should consider sending him a pm next time instead of posting on the open board.

What was it that really upset you about my post? May I have possibly bruised your ego a little when I said: With the greatest of respect to all of the other members that have posted in your thread Smiles, the only member in my opinion who seems like a real biker and a reasonably experienced one, evident to me not only by what he said, but also the advice he gave, is ceejay.

Or is it the reason for your high handed post in reply to my one, the fact that you have heard that I had been ill treating an ex pet of yours of late? Whatever your reason, I would have thought that your first communication to me in such a long while, would have been a lot more friendlier and much less rude. ;)

I hope that you are doing OK Taschizzie, you take care now.


Choc Dee,


George

My point was simple, George.

You did not read what I posted before you went off about what I said, so I spanked you.

It's that plain and uncomplicated and your attempt to obfuscate that crucial point with unrelated blather about my supposedly fragile ego and mistreating my pet (or ex-pet, whatever that whole thing means) does not change the facts.

Waving your hands about and thrashing the air does not make up for that. Instead of just saying "Hmmm. I did misinterpret what you said. Sorry.", you launch into an ad hominum argument to change the topic from your error to me.

In your future posts, please try to remain on point and actually read what was posted before you reply to it.

That's it; that's all; live with it. Or don't.

An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject

... I am an experienced rider, as you purport to be but mostly on larger bikes than your 750 cc Honda and I've seen many hundreds of thousands of miles and spent many months in the (motorcycle) saddle, as you may have.

But I didn't want to list my credentials and set myself up as the Big Motocy Kahuna here as you have, I wanted to be seen as a safe and knowledgeable rider.

I also have long-term experience in the Kingdom as you apparently do...

Really?

In that case I am surprised you recommend "things like headlight and taillight modulators" as these are illegal in Thailand and likely to result in either an on the spot fine, at best, or a fine and your bike being impounded until the lights are returned, at the impound yard, to their original (legal) spec.

Hmmmm. Headlight and taillight modulators illegal in Thailand? Didn't know. Sorry.

Neither do many of those fitting them!

[francois]

George,
With the greatest of respect to all of the other members that have posted in your thread Smiles, the only member in my opinion who seems like a real biker and a reasonably experienced one, evident to me not only by what he said, but also the advice he gave, is ceejay.
George

George, I assume you consider yourself a real biker in the same league as ceejay? So, I also assume the other members should defer to your sage advice and ceejay, of course, and keep quiet? Simply said, you don't respect anyone's opinion other than yours and ceejays.

[Dodger]

Francois...ceejay...george...


I don't think you need to squabble about "who's the biggest biker here"...as I really think Smiles is just looking for some opinions regarding "a motorbike"...not a "full-dressed hog".

So you can all put your pink-handled...star-studded switch blades away now...55555

Only on SGF !

[ceejay]

Dodger
I can assure you that the only pink weapon I have ever had in my hand has absolutely no rhinestones in it. It also, these days. does not flip up one half so reliably as a switchblade. :cheese:

60% of motorcycle accidents in Patong are caused by unlicensed foreigners (the very worst kind of foreigner, undoubtedly!) - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Unlicense ... 14638.html (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Unlicensed-Foreigners-60-Patong-t214638.html)

[francois]

Francois...ceejay...george...

I don't think you need to squabble about "who's the biggest biker here"...as I really think Smiles is just looking for some opinions regarding "a motorbike"...not a "full-dressed hog".
So you can all put your pink-handled...star-studded switch blades away now...55555
Only on SGF !

My blade has an ivory handle! You are correct Dodger, Smiles is looking for opinions from all posters, not just the real bikers. And are you calling George a full dressed hog?

Dodger, I think your suggestion of a Yamaha Elegant is the best advice on this topic other than not ride a bike.

[mahjongguy]

Reportedly, in Thailand 80% of all Emergency Room admissions are motorbike-related.

For me that says it all.

60% of motorcycle accidents in Patong are caused by unlicensed foreigners (the very worst kind of foreigner, undoubtedly!) - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Unlicense ... 14638.html (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Unlicensed-Foreigners-60-Patong-t214638.html)

100% of accidents involving a foreigner are caused by the foreigner, aren't they?

[Dodger]

mahjongguy wrote:


Reportedly, in Thailand 80% of all Emergency Room admissions are motorbike-related.

I have to wonder who's doing the reporting here. Unless they're talking about the week of Songkran, my guess is that the number is less than 5%.

If you like statistics, how about this one: In the next 50 years, every single person reading this post will be DEAD !

I look at it this way. Life itself is an "accident." The moment we're born our bodies are destined to die with an incredibly short life span when compared to all other life matter. I guess we can sit around and try to protect these bodies as if they're going the last forever, but what would that really gain us in the big picture ?

People who worry too much and spend their lives all stressed out, (inevitably, over things they have no control of anyway), already have one foot in the grave and the another on a banana peel. If I remember correctly, someone reported once that "stress" is actually the number 1 killer. I don't think riding a motocy evan made the list.

If you don't want to drive a motocy - by all means, don't drive one. But if you want to - then Just DO IT. Toss a few mangos and a bottle of wine in your backpack...pull your guy on the back....put the throttle down...and just feel the wind flowing through your hair. Better yet, take him on a brisk ride out to some remote beach front along the ocean where the song teaws don't evan venture. Park your motocy in the sand and take him by the hand and lead him into the water wearing nothing but your smiles. Enjoy having sex with him right there in the shallows of the water without a single care in the world - while your motocy stands guard.

Now that's living !

People who worry too much and spend their lives all stressed out, (inevitably, over things they have no control of anyway) ...Like you obsessing about your parents finding out that you screw Thai boys?

[Dodger]

homi wrote:


Like you obsessing about your parents finding out that you screw Thai boys?

LOL...yes, exactly like that. Perfect example.

[krobbie]

Yes Smiles, I am of the without hesitation type ..... and then i hit me! Maybe that is why I have only one leg? Just not bloody careful enough or right thinking.

As you know my guy and I get about on bikes when necessary. All I can say is, it is better to be thinking of doing this in Hua Hin than BKK.

Now I know you're a careful man and all but I don't think a bike is a good idea after a couple of large Singha beers at the beach. Nudge nudge.

O-fcourse getting the groceries and just whipping around town doing the chores? Go for it.

I do like the op's suggestion of hiring for a month. Very good idea.

Cheers and talk soon,
krobbie

[Diec]

People, Smiles has no desire to purchase a motorbike. Smiles is very adept at posting threads that will illicit responses. If he felt he needed a motorbike he would simply purchase one. He doesn't need opinions from people on this forum. I wouldn't be surprised if his next post was: "Should I feel guilty putting my peen up Pot's no-no hole."

People, Smiles has no desire to purchase a motorbike. Smiles is very adept at posting threads that will illicit responses. If he felt he needed a motorbike he would simply purchase one. He doesn't need opinions from people on this forum. I wouldn't be surprised if his next post was: "Should I feel guilty putting my peen up Pot's no-no hole."Don't you mean "elicit responses"? I know some of our members can be right bastards, but to characterise their responses as "illicit" may be going too far

[Diec]

People, Smiles has no desire to purchase a motorbike. Smiles is very adept at posting threads that will illicit responses. If he felt he needed a motorbike he would simply purchase one. He doesn't need opinions from people on this forum. I wouldn't be surprised if his next post was: "Should I feel guilty putting my peen up Pot's no-no hole."Don't you mean "elicit responses"? I know some of our members can be right bastards, but to characterise their responses as "illicit" may be going too far

Yes homo, you win the shiny plastic badge for being the spelling police.

[krobbie]

People, Smiles has no desire to purchase a motorbike. Smiles is very adept at posting threads that will illicit responses. If he felt he needed a motorbike he would simply purchase one. He doesn't need opinions from people on this forum. I wouldn't be surprised if his next post was: "Should I feel guilty putting my peen up Pot's no-no hole."

You are so much fun Diec. It's lovely to read your every word.

Yes homo, you win the shiny plastic badge for being the spelling police.It's not a question of spelling, but of working out the correct homonym. I just assumed you were an ignoramus, not just a poor speller

[Diec]

Yes homo, you win the shiny plastic badge for being the spelling police.It's not a question of spelling, but of working out the correct homonym. I just assumed you were an ignoramus, not just a poor speller

Oh homo...you should really lay off the sauce before you post.

Yes homo, you win the shiny plastic badge for being the spelling police.It's not a question of spelling, but of working out the correct homonym. I just assumed you were an ignoramus, not just a poor spellerOh homo...you should really lay off the sauce before you post.Where's the fun in that?