Give me insight into the Thai boy brain!

[topjohn5]

So, on this forum I expect a lot of flip answers to this and a few gems.........but, it's worth it I think!
First, I have never been to Thailand so I have no first hand knowledge. My first trip is planned for this December and I'm going to both Bangkok and Pattaya for starters.
Here is the question.....
On the dating sights I see most of the ads from Thai guys seeking a bf that they say something like this: I want a bf make me happy and care for me...
Is this the Thai mindset or are these just guys with limited English skills not expressing themselves clearly. Do they really mean they think a bf will be all it takes to make them happy in life and do they also mean that they truly expect the other guy to take care of them? In the "take care of them" department what do they mean? Only money or what?
I realize that many of these ads are just trolling for a sugar daddy but it seems however that most seem to have these phrases in them.
What are your thoughts.....as I cringe awaiting your replies and abuse, lol.......

I would avoid anyone with such verbiage in their advertisements. They are looking for a walking ATM (you).

Here is a short uncomplicated answer. 1) This is a culture where those with the money always pay the bill. So, so yes, in western terms the boys are "trolling for a sugar daddy", but in Thai thinking the old one with money aways pays. They see it very differently than westerners. 2) Age is respected in a way that a westerner won't understand until they experience it. 3) The boys are as individual and different as humans are everywhere. So, you meet a great guy or you meet a a money grubbing ass. But, you will alway be the one paying the bill. 4) There are some nasty people on this board, so don't be surprised by some of the responses that you will most likely get.

Thailand has large number of gays and as a society it has come to accept and respect gay sexuality. So there will be no limitations for you to find one and/or many for that matter. The question is where you would find them? If you meetings will be limited only to the go-go bars or commercial gay venues, the terminology "take care of me" largelt relates to money. However, you may find a small number of guys who are really honest and truely believe in true relationships. Count Pattaya out. There are forums and websites, you can meet middle class and/or university gays, who may meet your expectations. If you focus on Bars located near universities, discos, shopping malls (high-end), suanas frequented by young Thais, you may find english speaking, well rounded and decent gay friends.

Building a relationship is a two-way stream when you are dealing with this calibore of Thais. They are slow starters, unlike the guys you meet at the Bars. They are cautious, curious and intelligent. They can hold an intelligent conversation, like to be taken for canddle light dinners, movies, bowling and of course the beaches. They would prefer to be descreate.

To spot them you will have to have a good eye. They will be in the corners, looking at you. Dress up well, treat them with respect and I am sure you will come out a winner. Good luck

If you would like to know what's going on in a boy's brain, than you should try to get to know a bit more about their religion, family relations, culture, background, life expectations, etc. It's very difficult to get through to a boy's mind, but if you know a bit on the influences of a boy's mind, you'll know more about the way of thinking and acting.

Do NOT try to mirror a Western lifestyle onto your bf; it's will be a struggle that you almost certain will loose.

Soi 10 Tom's reply hits the point pretty close.

I do fully agree with the comments made by the others. However, you will also find the kind of modern youths we find in our part of the world who are high-tech, into gadgets and like to dress and adopt the western youth ways. They are an interesting lot to interact with and you will enjoy your trip better. Target the university/college students

That's the wedge I am trying to drive here. Go with an open mind and be nromal and do the things that you would normally would like to do and go to places you would normally go and you will find your match

You need understand only one thing - as a foreigner you don't have a place in Thai society where you can be slotted in. Therefore they will place you in the "best fit" - The Patron. Forget the notion of equality or "boyfriend". Your role is Patron, specifically the "provider" tasks. I've lost track of the number of chums who've told me that they've been explained to their "boyfriend's" family as "the foreigner who has adopted me", and the family accept that as a perfectly legitimate role, one which they understand completely because it is a role in Thai society. Sex? No way! "Big Man"? Of course!

I guess the term SUGAR DADDY is the most accurate one. Not only do you clothe feed and educate the boy but often his entire family. But that can also be very rewarding especially if you succeed in getting a very special boy with a very special family unit. Most times tho the boy is in it for the short time as pressure for him to marry and have a children is great. I know of several that accept this and manage to keep a relationship with the boy even after he marries and has children but then it is more of an open relationship with either one seeing others.

[topjohn5]

Thanks all......great help.....
And I have to make a comment. There will be many here who will hate me now after saying this but I just have to comment....
There was only one person on this board I would have wanted a flip answer from because I usually find his flip answers insightful and funny at the same time. Homintern however gave me just an insightful one...... ;) I won't ever mention this again, okay as I wouldn't want your reputation tarnished with good comments, especially from an american, lol.....but, then again, I love Brits in general.....

I wouldn't want your reputation tarnished with good commentsMany will hate me anyway; I puncture their illusions and as you know, reality is often too hard to bear

Why is the term boy used when we really mean man, anyone stumbling onto our forum would think we were all paedophiles. Surely someone over eighteen is a man

[Beachlover]

Why is the term boy used when we really mean man, anyone stumbling onto our forum would think we were all paedophiles. Surely someone over eighteen is a man

I think in Thai culture and some other Asian cultures they refer to a boy as anyone under the age of 30... sometimes up to 35.

[dab69]

compared to a 60+ year old guy, they even call 40 year olds "boys"

[topjohn5]

Why is the term boy used when we really mean man, anyone stumbling onto our forum would think we were all paedophiles. Surely someone over eighteen is a man

Perfect! This is the kind of response I expected at first, completely ignoring the question and on the attack.....bravo! And the best thing is your'e serious, hahahaha.....never heard a gay man referred to as a boy I guess and further never heard the younger partner of a gay man referred to as a boy either....but if your, ummmmmm in you're later years or very silly I guess this could be taken that way! There is always a pedo just around the corner for some folks!

I don't like the expression 'boy' in terms of a foreign-Thai relationship.
I call my friend usually: "My Lordship".

[Beachlover]

Topjohn5,

Take a browse through this forum and you'll learn a lot. There's also some great info at www.gay-thailand.net (http://www.gay-thailand.net)

At www.gayboythailand.com (http://www.gayboythailand.com) there's a wealth of information and stories from a guy who went to Bangkok to settle down... and within a few days, met a boy who he has now been with for 5-6 years (astounding).

But here's some quick key advice:

- If you're after a long-term relationship... don't look for "the one" on your first trip... and especially in your first few days. Go out with a few just to get a feeling of their ways first.

- Don't ever do it without protection. STD risk is high. Just stay safe and you'll sleep better.

- Take time to learn their ways... their motives... their desires... their manners. You might find them doing some little things, which might seem rude, but are actually the norm in their culture.

- Thai boys can get quite emotional and deal with emotions differently from us. Be aware of this... so you are not too shocked or taken when a boy becomes happily or distraughtly emotional.

- If a boy becomes very emotional... take it with a pinch of salt. They may have ulterior motives. And be aware... some (especially moneyboys) can be extraordinarily convincing actors. Be nice, be sympathetic, be caring and be generous, but draw the line somewhere and don't lose perspective. Thai boys can be easy to love but are also able to manipulate.

On that last note... I have never seen a boy so distraught as one I was with in Bangkok. He came onto me in a bar... we spent a little amount of time together. I made it clear that I enjoyed being with him but we couldn't have a long term relationship. When I pressed this to him, he became so distraught, crying and such I was shocked. I suspected he was a moneyboy as he really was very charming and likeable, but he never asked for money and tried to insist on paying for things. So were his emotions real or acted? Probably a mix of both (he was gay and I was apparently his type)... but who knows. I was quite shocked all the same. When I got home, I kept finding these little tiny photos of him he had slipped into my luggage... in my notebook, my toiletries bag, my clothes etc etc.... it was sweet of him (or manipulative?) but a bit unnerving!

I treated him as nicely as I could... but at the end of the day you have to draw the line. I wasn't after a relationship. My lifestyle is too hectic so I couldn't possibly live with him. And anyway, I liked him, but not enough to want to have a relationship... he was a couple of years older than me (26), but he was extremely hot and hunky... so it was mainly lust and hot sex I was after. But his reaction to my not wanting a relationship was the most emotional and distraught I have ever seen... in a a boy or girl... so it left me a bit shocked. But in hindsight... I think that's normal (or close to normal) for Thai boys... they seem to like a bit of drama.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

yes..let's cut to the chase..Sugar Daddy is a nice term and covers a multitude of sins.

and with the Thai no-hangup about sex (although individuals have their own scenarios) it's a perfect combination for a happy marriage.

You won't find answers on here, just opinions. It's one of the world's great mysteries..insight into the Thai "mind" !

Which one?

yes..let's cut to the chase..Sugar Daddy is a nice term and covers a multitude of sins.Stop getting your hopes up, Doris - you're not joining the Mem'sahibs and that's final!

I must agree with many of the comments posted above which contain much useful and thought-provoking information.

There are two important aspects that has not yet been mentioned but are worthy of a comment I believe, and which I would like to add without any bitterness or rancour but just as observable facts.

In 23 years living and working among, I must admit, many lower or working class Thai 'boys' and have seen hundreds of Westerners trying to have a long term loving relationship with a younger Thai companion - not that that is a criterion. There have been many relationships between bar boys and farangs that appear to have worked for many years and some have lasted a decade or more but these have been few and far between. My own perception is that eventually all these relationships will ended in sadness and siappointment probably as the fault of the Westerner.

The first aspect is that of which Westerners have little experience of. A Thai will always put his family first. To him, the family is the centre of his world and the elder Thai generation make full use of his vulnerbilities in calling on the youger generation to come to their aid whether they really need it or not. The second is more cotroversial: that at some time, your Thai partner will always, in Western terms, let you down. Perhaps this is not just a Thai trait but it is the more observable. So be prepared fo your Thai partner to do something quite out of the ordinary, whether it be running off with a Thai lover, emptying your safe and running off to aid his family, or whatever, or just doing something quite beyond your apprehension after loving and helping him for years.

I well rememer paying off a large debt of my former boyfriend and being told after the debt collector left "what did you do that for". On reflection, I should have kept the money in my pocket and let him take the consequences. The real problem is that Thais think nothing of helping themselves to your possession, either by theft or just "borrowing" them to put in the pawn shop. It is a mental attiude that would never cross a farangs mind to so do. Also that presents are regarded as asests - particularly gold - they have no sentimentality, and I grew fed up with presents disappearing at grossly less prices into the pawnbroker, either pawned or sold. cEventually I gave up giving gold as present which is just looked upon as money.

A relationship with a Thai is quite different from that of one with a Westerner based more on the Greek or Roman concept of paton and client. To them we are rich because we can afford to come to Thailand in the first place. They see us taking money out of ATM machines and have no concept of how the money got into our accounts. There is an underlying basic attitude to life in general of living for today with no thought for the future. The Thai schooling system installs no concepts, no pegs on which to hang ideas, and relies entirely on equipping the future generation to accept their lot in life - rather like the Victorian attitude of knowing your place, hence the usual method of learning by rote. Remember the Anglican hymn "We plough the fields and scatter" with the line the rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" - the view that everyone had a place in society, fixed in heaven and which must be accepted for quiet social order? The "system" here does not want a large, poor, working class population thinking for themselves, thus the ease at which votes can be purchased and te better educated Chinbese/Thais ruling the roost with an acquiescent un-political maleable work force. This will only by changed when the middle class Chinese Thais allow education for the masses to progress beyond learning and chanting the same facts that earlier generations were incalcated with. Thank goodness the present generation has access to such things as the internet when they can learn that there are different attitudes out there in the wider world and that perhaps the Thai way of doing things is perhaps not the best. But it will take more that one generation to change attitudes.

I have observed two generations of Thais and maybe the present decline in the availabilty of getting Thai men to work in go-go bars is symptomatc of certain changes. Let's hope so, for as some posters have mentoned, they are a clever nation with many talents if only they could be encouraged to develop them. As "sex tourists", I think we do little to help, with easily gained money in their pockets for a few minutes "work", the endless trail of presents that WE think are necessary to retain their interests etc, and with our own attitudes that many of the different things we observe in this wonderfully free and easy country, and the way they conduct their lives, are not what WE accept from a partner. Trying to change them is like banging our head against a brick wall; they are different, thank God, and that is why we are attracted to them not just because they are available as sexual objects. Perhaps we should start treating them as equal individuals, as different from us as we from them, and accept these differences without tyring to change them to being more like us. They never will be. It saddens me to see a Thia companion eating with two farangs with never a word addressed to him. We are all guilty of treating themas lower class citizens with little to contribute to Farang-farang conversations - and the fact that many cannot speak much English is not excuse - has not one heard of mime?

St Paul never visited Thailand, neither did many of the early Protestant work-ethic based religious proseltysing Europeans of yesteryear. The Thais are content in the main with their lot. an are edcuated to acceopt their place. They live for today because tomorrow will take care of itself. When fruit grows on trees, rice grows in the paddies, fish are in the sea and river and the sun shines every day, that is sufficient for them. Tomorrow is another day and is faced when it arrives. Getting through day to day is their priority and the future is a concept of which the have little concern, hence their spending money as and when it comes in. With low horizons of expectaton other thn meeting someone to take car of them, they have little awareness of planning for tomorrow, much like many of us reacted in our youth.

Thailand is a wonderfully free nation, probably unique in this dangerous and violent world. Long may it remain so without us trying to forge them into our own image, accept our concepts of right and wrong, and adopt any other ethic of life than taking a middle, quiet way of dealing with problems.

(Moderato; get the spell check checked please).








hat is good for us in that they have none of the sexual hang-ups of a Christian-Judaeo education; life is for them to be enjoyed TODAY; tomorrow, when the fish are in the river, the fruit in the trees, the warm sun shines every day will take care of itself. Their Bhuddist way of life of calness, a middle way and accepting fate, it one that we could well to follow if not to emulate. Perhaps then the ills of the present world when one religious sect is intent on destroying the other could be put to rest and we could all live in a more harmonious and gentle environment.

I must agree with many of the comments posted above which contain much useful and thought-provoking information.

There are two important aspects that has not yet been mentioned but are worthy of a comment I believe, and which I would like to add without any bitterness or rancour but just as observable facts.

In 23 years living and working among, I must admit, many lower or working class Thai 'boys' and have seen hundreds of Westerners trying to have a long term loving relationship with a younger Thai companion - not that that is a criterion. There have been many relationships between bar boys and farangs that appear to have worked for many years and some have lasted a decade or more but these have been few and far between. My own perception is that eventually all these relationships will ended in sadness and siappointment probably as the fault of the Westerner.

The first aspect is that of which Westerners have little experience of. A Thai will always put his family first. To him, the family is the centre of his world and the elder Thai generation make full use of his vulnerbilities in calling on the youger generation to come to their aid whether they really need it or not. The second is more cotroversial: that at some time, your Thai partner will always, in Western terms, let you down. Perhaps this is not just a Thai trait but it is the more observable. So be prepared fo your Thai partner to do something quite out of the ordinary, whether it be running off with a Thai lover, emptying your safe and running off to aid his family, or whatever, or just doing something quite beyond your apprehension after loving and helping him for years.

I well rememer paying off a large debt of my former boyfriend and being told after the debt collector left "what did you do that for". On reflection, I should have kept the money in my pocket and let him take the consequences. The real problem is that Thais think nothing of helping themselves to your possession, either by theft or just "borrowing" them to put in the pawn shop. It is a mental attiude that would never cross a farangs mind to so do. Also that presents are regarded as asests - particularly gold - they have no sentimentality, and I grew fed up with presents disappearing at grossly less prices into the pawnbroker, either pawned or sold. cEventually I gave up giving gold as present which is just looked upon as money.

A relationship with a Thai is quite different from that of one with a Westerner based more on the Greek or Roman concept of paton and client. To them we are rich because we can afford to come to Thailand in the first place. They see us taking money out of ATM machines and have no concept of how the money got into our accounts. There is an underlying basic attitude to life in general of living for today with no thought for the future. The Thai schooling system installs no concepts, no pegs on which to hang ideas, and relies entirely on equipping the future generation to accept their lot in life - rather like the Victorian attitude of knowing your place, hence the usual method of learning by rote. Remember the Anglican hymn "We plough the fields and scatter" with the line the rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" - the view that everyone had a place in society, fixed in heaven and which must be accepted for quiet social order? The "system" here does not want a large, poor, working class population thinking for themselves, thus the ease at which votes can be purchased and te better educated Chinbese/Thais ruling the roost with an acquiescent un-political maleable work force. This will only by changed when the middle class Chinese Thais allow education for the masses to progress beyond learning and chanting the same facts that earlier generations were incalcated with. Thank goodness the present generation has access to such things as the internet when they can learn that there are different attitudes out there in the wider world and that perhaps the Thai way of doing things is perhaps not the best. But it will take more that one generation to change attitudes.

I have observed two generations of Thais and maybe the present decline in the availabilty of getting Thai men to work in go-go bars is symptomatc of certain changes. Let's hope so, for as some posters have mentoned, they are a clever nation with many talents if only they could be encouraged to develop them. As "sex tourists", I think we do little to help, with easily gained money in their pockets for a few minutes "work", the endless trail of presents that WE think are necessary to retain their interests etc, and with our own attitudes that many of the different things we observe in this wonderfully free and easy country, and the way they conduct their lives, are not what WE accept from a partner. Trying to change them is like banging our head against a brick wall; they are different, thank God, and that is why we are attracted to them not just because they are available as sexual objects. Perhaps we should start treating them as equal individuals, as different from us as we from them, and accept these differences without tyring to change them to being more like us. They never will be. It saddens me to see a Thia companion eating with two farangs with never a word addressed to him. We are all guilty of treating themas lower class citizens with little to contribute to Farang-farang conversations - and the fact that many cannot speak much English is not excuse - has not one heard of mime?

St Paul never visited Thailand, neither did many of the early Protestant work-ethic based religious proseltysing Europeans of yesteryear. The Thais are content in the main with their lot. an are edcuated to acceopt their place. They live for today because tomorrow will take care of itself. When fruit grows on trees, rice grows in the paddies, fish are in the sea and river and the sun shines every day, that is sufficient for them. Tomorrow is another day and is faced when it arrives. Getting through day to day is their priority and the future is a concept of which the have little concern, hence their spending money as and when it comes in. With low horizons of expectaton other thn meeting someone to take car of them, they have little awareness of planning for tomorrow, much like many of us reacted in our youth.

Thailand is a wonderfully free nation, probably unique in this dangerous and violent world. Long may it remain so without us trying to forge them into our own image, accept our concepts of right and wrong, and adopt any other ethic of life than taking a middle, quiet way of dealing with problems.

(Moderato; get the spell check checked please).








hat is good for us in that they have none of the sexual hang-ups of a Christian-Judaeo education; life is for them to be enjoyed TODAY; tomorrow, when the fish are in the river, the fruit in the trees, the warm sun shines every day will take care of itself. Their Bhuddist way of life of calness, a middle way and accepting fate, it one that we could well to follow if not to emulate. Perhaps then the ills of the present world when one religious sect is intent on destroying the other could be put to rest and we could all live in a more harmonious and gentle environment.

Apologies for the double post. My computer and its operator are having a breakdown!

[Smiles]

That's the wedge I am trying to drive here. Go with an open mind and be nromal and do the things that you would normally would like to do and go to places you would normally go and you will find your match
Yeah me too. Your's that is.

topjohn5, my only advice to would be to ignore absolutely everything that our (new) SteveResidentFool writes. Keep to that general rule and you might do well with Thai guys. As a small exeption to the rule above, don't forget to be "nromal".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But a more serious note, if you will indulge me: Please when reading the comments of almost al the folks who have replied above, keep this one aspect in mind . . . there are farang relationships with Thai guys who are "in the business", and then there are farang relationships with Thai guys who are not. The former tend to be younger (18 to ~ let's say ~ 25) and thus ~ as teenagers-&-somewhat-older all over the world ~ more immature on just about every level. The latter have not been tainted by the sex industry, tend (overall) to be older, better educated (but not all), and more mature on just about every level. Making generalizations which lump these two large groups together ~ as if the grouping did not exist ~ is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

"Just anecdotal": I've been in a relationship with a Thai man of 40 now for closing in on 9 years. The first 7 years were of lengths of one to three months a year (before anyone here crawls up my ass about 'holiday relationships') and now we are into living under the same roof together going into our second year of longterm-ism.
To be perfectly frank, I do not recognize the stereotyped "Thai Guy" the posts above describe . . . he must be from Mars, for he is not living with this farang.
The posts above, on the whole, are discussing relationships with bar boys. I don't denigrate the observations because of that, but would like to add that Thai guys of a different ilk are "around": i.e. mature grown men with histories, life stories to tell, the desire to form loving affectionate relationships which last, lacking in dead buffalo and sick Mama stories, full of love for the family at home but determined to make their relationship work without reference to other responsibilites, and a willingness to put their farang relationship on an equal (if not higher) footing with the familial.
There are Thai guys like this (I guess I should know) ... but on the whole, rarely found in GoGo bars.

Cheers ...

Give me insight into the gay male farang brain!
The range of types is endless and vary in age, weight, intelligence, generousity,
personality, sexual requirements, attitudes towards smoking, drinking, clubbing,
eating. Just about everything and the same for the Thai boys.

I know one farang who advertises on gayromeo and lies about his weight and his
age. He is at least 10 kilos fatter and 10 years older and that is being kind. He lies
about what he is looking for and is using gayromeo for free fucks.
Why should we expect anymore from the Thai boys or anyone else.
The internet is a playground and full of land mines and treasures. :bs:

[Dodger]

The more I learn about them (or think I'm learning) the more I've come to realize that Thai boys think and react almost exactly the same as boys do in any other country or culture, and having (or attempting to have) a relationship with one of them has the same obstacles and potential pitfalls as would be present in any other country or culture under these circumstances.

If a gay man who's in his 50's or 60's, or in some cases even beyond, attempts to cultivate a meaningful long term relationship with a boy who's 18-25 y/o on his own home turf, he will be faced with the same series of obstacles amd realizations. Yes, the Thai boys come from dramatically different home environments and belief systems, but again, I don't see this as having as much of a significant impact when it comes to relationship building as I once believed.

I've also come to believe that it's not the way the Thai boy THINKS that really matters here, it's the way WE think...being driven (and some times blinded) by our own desires.

I think the success of the relationship between Smiles and Suphot lays testement to what I'm saying. Here you have two guys who don't have that huge age gap between them, who simply care for each other with common goals based on their obvious love and compassion for each other. The fact that Suphot is Thai and Smiles Canadian really makes no difference in the equation.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that when you are trying to understand how HE thinks, just remember the fact the HE is thinking just like the young boy he is.

[Beachlover]

The more I learn about them (or think I'm learning) the more I've come to realize that Thai boys think and react almost exactly the same as boys do in any other country or culture, and having (or attempting to have) a relationship with one of them has the same obstacles and potential pitfalls as would be present in any other country or culture under these circumstances.

If a gay man who's in his 50's or 60's, or in some cases even beyond, attempts to cultivate a meaningful long term relationship with a boy who's 18-25 y/o on his own home turf, he will be faced with the same series of obstacles amd realizations. Yes, the Thai boys come from dramatically different home environments and belief systems, but again, I don't see this as having as much of a significant impact when it comes to relationship building as I once believed.

I've also come to believe that it's not the way the Thai boy THINKS that really matters here, it's the way WE think...being driven (and some times blinded) by our own desires.

I think the success of the relationship between Smiles and Suphot lays testement to what I'm saying. Here you have two guys who don't have that huge age gap between them, who simply care for each other with common goals based on their obvious love and compassion for each other. The fact that Suphot is Thai and Smiles Canadian really makes no difference in the equation.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that when you are trying to understand how HE thinks, just remember the fact the HE is thinking just like the young boy he is.

Interesting...

Remember there are always exceptions to the rule... and if you are looking for one of the "exceptions" you may have to do a lot of sifting... or go somewhere different like Silom farang did...

Here is a short uncomplicated answer. 1) This is a culture where those with the money always pay the bill. So, so yes, in western terms the boys are "trolling for a sugar daddy", but in Thai thinking the old one with money aways pays. They see it very differently than westerners. 2) Age is respected in a way that a westerner won't understand until they experience it. 3) The boys are as individual and different as humans are everywhere. So, you meet a great guy or you meet a a money grubbing ass. But, you will alway be the one paying the bill. 4) There are some nasty people on this board, so don't be surprised by some of the responses that you will most likely get.

Point 3 is very important. Both I and my former bf have been surprised to meet "dates" outside the bar scene who were MORE exploiting than some guys who actually work in the bars! The former bf met a nice guy at some disco, took him home, and then was surprised to hear "let's go shopping" the next day -- where "shopping" turned out to mean at least 33 pairs of socks for his "free" date! At least with a bar-boy you know what you're going to be paying. I have one student who works in a bar who is extremely krengjai, even to the point of refusing (always) the drink I (always) offer him. Well, today was really hot and he caved for a glass of WATER!! If he ever needs to borrow money, he pays it right back, in cash and when promised. And there are lots of people in the world who are happy to "forget" about little things like that.

By the way, I think the reason the word "boy" is used so often on this board is because this is Thailand. The Thai understand the word "bar-boy," and will ask "Do you like that boy?" when the "boy" is 27! Even stranger, when you think about it, is that the Thai term for "bar-boy" is dek bar, which can be literally translated as "child" but is also used in phrases like "one of the Petchburi mafia boys."

Perhaps more important is that the word man has been borrowed into Thai, and has a definite meaning of "manly masculine man." If you are looking for a maen (in Thai) that really tells everyone that you want some tough macho guy to top you.

But it's easy to slip into the habit of referring to "boys" constantly, and this will enrage some newbies and just about all farang. So I have started translating back into (American) English and now refer to "guys" rather than "boys" almost all the time.

[Beachlover]

[quote="Soi 10 Tom":29tvu3b2]Here is a short uncomplicated answer. 1) This is a culture where those with the money always pay the bill. So, so yes, in western terms the boys are "trolling for a sugar daddy", but in Thai thinking the old one with money aways pays. They see it very differently than westerners. 2) Age is respected in a way that a westerner won't understand until they experience it. 3) The boys are as individual and different as humans are everywhere. So, you meet a great guy or you meet a a money grubbing ass. But, you will alway be the one paying the bill. 4) There are some nasty people on this board, so don't be surprised by some of the responses that you will most likely get.

Point 3 is very important. Both I and my former bf have been surprised to meet "dates" outside the bar scene who were MORE exploiting than some guys who actually work in the bars! The former bf met a nice guy at some disco, took him home, and then was surprised to hear "let's go shopping" the next day -- where "shopping" turned out to mean at least 33 pairs of socks for his "free" date! At least with a bar-boy you know what you're going to be paying. I have one student who works in a bar who is extremely krengjai, even to the point of refusing (always) the drink I (always) offer him. Well, today was really hot and he caved for a glass of WATER!! If he ever needs to borrow money, he pays it right back, in cash and when promised. And there are lots of people in the world who are happy to "forget" about little things like that.

By the way, I think the reason the word "boy" is used so often on this board is because this is Thailand. The Thai understand the word "bar-boy," and will ask "Do you like that boy?" when the "boy" is 27! Even stranger, when you think about it, is that the Thai term for "bar-boy" is dek bar, which can be literally translated as "child" but is also used in phrases like "one of the Petchburi mafia boys."

Perhaps more important is that the word man has been borrowed into Thai, and has a definite meaning of "manly masculine man." If you are looking for a maen (in Thai) that really tells everyone that you want some tough macho guy to top you.

But it's easy to slip into the habit of referring to "boys" constantly, and this will enrage some newbies and just about all farang. So I have started translating back into (American) English and now refer to "guys" rather than "boys" almost all the time.[/quote:29tvu3b2]

The word "boy" is always used a lot in Western culture in some more testosterone driven environments... eg. "the boys put in a good fight today" or "the boys are ready for anything"...

[Bob]

Kids in their teens and early 20's are often airheads everywhere (and I define "airhead" as an alien being somehow not too discernable to an older airhead that's 50 or 60 years old).

People sometimes are amazed at poor farmers in Isaan having a cellphone (well, look anywhere in the world and you'll often find that). Or that a 20-year-old spends ever dime he gets and can't think past tomorrow (again, ditto on the rest of the world). They are not all that different than kids anywhere in the world and many falang occasionally use the "oh, their Thai" label to mislabel the issue/problem. Hey, they're young (alien!)!

Reminds me of the many occasions I hear a friend or parent chastising a teenager with the phrase: "How the hell come you didn't use your head?" (meaning, they know the kid was brought up better and smarter than to do the incredibly dumb thing he just did and they're just wondering why the kid didn't analyze and bring into the decision-making process all that native intelligence and "good upbringing"). If you have to ask a teen that question, you're never going to understand a teenager. [By the way, the absolutely correct answer for the teen to that question always is: "Duh, I don't know!" so don't be an airhead and get madder when they answer correctly].

[Shuee]

an insite into the guys brains......, sorry i cannot work the impossible, but you will need all that tact you can trying

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"Kids in their teens and early 20's are often airheads everywhere (and I define "airhead" as an alien being somehow not too discernable to an older airhead that's 50 or 60 years old)."

it's a strange analogy to draw Bob but at least you qualify it.

I was once tasked with looking after an elderly great Aunt and she was a right bitch ( Irish !).
I was complaining to her doctor about 'friggin old people" and he took me to task, quite rightly !. He said :"look she's a a nasty old cow granted..but people don't change. She was probably a middle-aged bitch and a nasty little girl !"

You are really referring to the fact that teens just don't have a fully developed brain, which is the most wondrous thing. They cannot actually follow the process of where their actions will lead..and this is the great misunderstanding of us who are about 39 or so. We forget and blame "teenagers" incorrectly ( whilst taking full advantage of them !),

Sex is for teens the whole world ( have you actually forgotten how randy you were then ?) and it's a wonderful thing.

In that respect, the Thai teen is no different than any other teen on this planet.

[quote]I've been in a relationship with a Thai man of 40 now for closing in on 9 years. The first 7 years were of lengths of one to three months a year (before anyone here crawls up my ass about 'holiday relationships') and now we are into living under the same roof together going into our second year of longterm-ism.
To be perfectly frank, I do not recognize the stereotyped "Thai Guy" the posts above describe . . . he must be from Mars, for he is not living with this farang.
There are Thai guys like this (I guess I should know) ... but on the whole, rarely found in GoGo bars.[quote]

I so agree with Smiles тАУ I do so hope to meet him and Suphot when I return to Thailand for the winter (d.v).

There have been some eminently sensible postings on this thread so I hope you will all forgive me if I contribute my three-penny worth.

Four years ago I suffered 2 heart attacks and while I was in hospital in Chonburi and out of intensive care a guy passed my bed every time he came to see his friend who was very ill with a brain tumour. He always smiled and said тАЬsawadi krapтАЭ and when - 8 days later тАУ his friend died, as he passed he held out his hand and said тАЬlast timeтАЭ and asked for my telephone no.

Two weeks later he telephoned me at my apartment and asked me if he could visit me.
For two weeks before I flew home he looked after me and attended to all my personal needs. He even came to see me off at Bangkok airport.

In the 3 years since, whenever I have come to Thailand (health permitting), despite him having to work extremely hard, he has been with me whenever he could. Whenever we go out somewhere: dinner, theatre, hire car, etc we always have an argument over who shall pay. Often he wins and so he pays. He says (in English which he has learnt) that we are equal and so why should I have to pay every time! He says he learnt English for me and despite giving me several books to help me, I, to my shame, have not managed to learn Thai. Also, although we did have a sexual relationship, it is not possible for me now but he says that it does not matter for him.

I am so lucky to have met someone like him - do you think that the fact that he is 40 and that I am nearly 30 years older has any bearing on our relationship?

It sounds like you have "formented" a very nice friendship.

Welcome to the brothel sweetie. Now choose your hooker have a good time and leave a good tip.

With only one major exception, I agree with virtually all of the replies here, varying though they are. I particularly agree with those who emphasise treating Thais as individuals, whatever their background.

In my own case I have a registered Civil Partnership with a Thai, who used to be a working boy, who is just over 20 years younger than me; we have lived together 24/7 for nearly six years and if it is only about money, as some say, he is pretty slow on the uptake as all our possessions (land, house, cars, bank accounts, etc) are held in joint names (single signature) and he would have walked away with it already if that was the case. To me we have both put everything we have into the relationship, so that is how things should be - I am not recommending this (anything but!), just pointing out that generalisations are generally incorrect. Those differentiating between boys who do foot/body/beach massage, who work in bars or who you "meet" in a sauna or nightclub, whether in Pattaya or Bangkok, for example, are simply deluding themselves.

Soi 10 Tom's answer is the simplest and best advice for a first time visitor, to which I would only add KEEP IT SIMPLE.

I agree with most of what Geneman says, but hate his generalisation ("The real problem is that Thais think nothing of helping themselves to your possession, either by theft or just "borrowing" them to put in the pawn shop") because while it may be true of a few it is by no means true of all Thais (see the thread on Have you been stolen from in Thailand) and is totally unjustified.

I am also rather surprised by his claim to have "observed two generations of Thais", as this would require his living here for 50 - 60 years, whereas he lives in England and only claims "23 years living and working among тАжmany lower or working class Thai 'boys'", as well as his identifying " тАж the present decline in the availabilty of getting Thai men to work in go-go bars тАж" - I have not heard of any such decline in the number of working boys (only a decline in the number of farangs!).

Dodger, as he often does, hits the nail squarely on the head (": I've also come to believe that it's not the way the Thai boy THINKS that really matters here, it's the way WE think...being driven (and some times blinded) by our own desires.", although I personally do not think that the lack of a "huge age gap" is nearly as important as "common goals based on тАж love and compassion тАж.

My only disagreement, unsurprisingly, is with Stevekoolguy who, as Smiles rightly says, is best ignored. If you only " тАж do the things that you would normally would like to do and go to places you would normally go тАж you may as well stay at home.

Do you want to go by the advise of many loser on this forum, who are mostly run-aways from their country and living in hide-outs like pattaya, BBK, singapore or other places. Like what they did in their country here too they have built up lots of enemies. You can see it yourself in the forum. You are atraveller and a holiday maker. You can still proudly stay and work in your won country and be proud of it. These guys only know the bars and side-walks.

I am sure you will be well off without these guys advise

My only disagreement, unsurprisingly, is with Stevekoolguy who, as Smiles rightly says, is best ignored.

Well TJ5, you can see from the outrageous accusations made in the post above this one, why GF made the statement above that he did and why both Smiles and him, have advised you that SteveKoolGuy is most definitely best ignored. I have to say that I agree with them and I too believe that this is the best thing for you to do where this fruitcake is concerned. The only evidence I have seen of anyone running away from anywhere on this forum, is him and that place he is running from, is in all probability a psychiatric unit.

I think overall you have received some good advice in this thread and wish you all the very best, for a great vacation in December.


Choc Dee,



George.

So, on this forum I expect a lot of flip answers to this and a few gems.........but, it's worth it I think!
First, I have never been to Thailand so I have no first hand knowledge. My first trip is planned for this December and I'm going to both Bangkok and Pattaya for starters.
Here is the question.....
On the dating sights I see most of the ads from Thai guys seeking a bf that they say something like this: I want a bf make me happy and care for me...
Is this the Thai mindset or are these just guys with limited English skills not expressing themselves clearly. Do they really mean they think a bf will be all it takes to make them happy in life and do they also mean that they truly expect the other guy to take care of them? In the "take care of them" department what do they mean? Only money or what?
I realize that many of these ads are just trolling for a sugar daddy but it seems however that most seem to have these phrases in them.
What are your thoughts.....as I cringe awaiting your replies and abuse, lol.......


Yes it is. If one realizes that Thailand is a feudal society it becomes clear. I give you subservience, and in return you take care of me. (in all ways). Not understanding this is the cause of many misunderstanding between foreigners and Thais, especially if the foreigners are falang.

That was Europe of long ago. As my frenemy Ralph pointed out long ago, the "Godfather" movie is more enlightening. As one example, when Pepsi workers go out on strike, the Coke workers do NOT join them. On the contrary: they treat it as a golden opportunity to stomp Coke in the face.

This is because their loyalty runs up to their status superiors, and not sideways to their "fellow soft-drink bottlers." After all, what can they possibly expect from their "fellow soft-drink bottlers?"

But it's too easy to simplify and to try to boil everything down to a few "simple rules." Thailand is a magnificent country, with some 60 million Thai people. My strongest suggestion is that you enjoy the voyage of discovery! You will not only discover a little bit about the Thai people, you'll probably discover a lot about yourself as well -- in case your own self had been holding any "surprises" for you. But more important, you will come to know individual Thai -- all as different as any people -- and, for me, that has been a wholly absorbing task. Fun, and sexy, and fascinating. It took me two years to fully appreciate that my bf was an accomplished master of non-verbal communication. I don't think all Thai are this way, but I am now Well Aware that my bf tells me things without words.

By two generations I meant that there have been fathers and then their sons working in the bars over 23 years (in one case daughters).

Yes, I include several generalisations but my observatons about the
GENERAL lack of western style honesty is based on my own observable experiences. Thai people have in many case very different concepts of what our view of honesty is and think nothing of "sharing" our possessions with or without our permission must be the experience o many westerner. We have to talk in general terms about our relationships here in Thailand and so therefore there will always be exceptions to that. We arrive here with our own perceptions, ideas and concepts as to what constitutes good behaviour from OUR point of view, forgetting that Thia society works in a different, and some would say, better way. I often think that perhaps we are too up tight, too anal retentive and too quick even when making judgments about a place and people who we have chosen to visit and spend time with. Love for the Thais is relationships with westerners is titally different from what we think of love; for them love is more of a liking ewithout deep emotional ties. It took me many years to realise that it was ME who had to make the adjustments amd to realise that when my boyfriend said he loved me what he really was saying in THAI terms was that he LIKED me as a partner.

I love, in the western meaning of that word, the Thai peope in general; they do not have many of the hang-ups that we do which makes it possible for us to do things like walking along the street holding our lover's hands. Try doing that in some of Britian's cities and see where it gets you - probably in the A&E of the nearest hospital. For anyone who has suffered severe illness in Thailand, has been hospitalised or bedriddien for long periods of time, you could not find a more caring, loving nation. But after three weeks taking care of my EVERY need whilst flat on my back and immobile many years ago, with a constant 24x7 service to take care of me - including emptying bedpans (and running errards at my slightest whim) - something I could not have done - my own boyfriend left when it suited him, robbing me in the process, and months later thought nothing of trying to return! I have also received the greatest pleasure out of doing things differently, living a much more relaxed lifestyle etc.

As to the generation question: some may remember a waiter in the early 1990s, about 20 years of age called Nong who is now the handyman at Cafe Royale; he unfortunatey (for us for he was very hadsome), is now a grandfather! I always had visions of having father recommend a son to work for me; alas he only had two dayghters but they worked as cleaners in one of my bars and are now themselves parents with almost teenage daughters. At BBB an early go-go staff member is also now a grandfather - he won the Mr Boyztown constest in ythe early 90s when he was about 20 and then a father; he too is now a grandfather. So you see there are gtrandfathers around from the early days!

There are always exceptions to the rule of course as we all know, but my generalisation of being let down, which is not sole just smeting I have experienced, is based on extensive experience and saddens me. Thais do not seem to appreciate that when we do find the "right one" we, as westerers, are big sofities and they soon realise that they can get almost anything out of us - not by way of payment but as a genuine heartfelt gift; there is no need for them to destroy a relationship and friendship for the sake of a few baht - this is what I meant by concepts, in this case of behaviour. For many, a quick gift now is better than a series of gifts and support for them and their families; striking whilst the iron is hot and we are carried away with our good luck in having a beatuiful young companion to make our holiday memorable.

Not all the apples in the barrell are rotten ones and some of my best Thai friends are genuinely nice, relatively honest and appreciating people who I would trust implicitly, but too often there have been nice boys who let us down. I had for over 14 years two sisters who in turn acted as housekeepers for me. They were Thai married Moslem women, honest as the days long with no personal or emotional connection to me other as their employer, who would do anything to make my living here pleasant and they were suitably rewarded
But on the other hand, I have had a number of Thai boys over the years, living with farangs with "salaries" or allowaces and perks and the knowledge that we loved them (ok, in our Western way) who would do extraordinary crass and dishonest things for apparently no reason when all they had to do was ask and it would be given. Thais are very relcutant to express themselves openly. All generalisations are subject to exceptions; so please
accept my comments as such with these rservations.

There is good and bad in every nation but unfortunately, Pattaya being what it is seems to attract the exceptional gold digging variety of oriental and from reading this forum's postings over many years, too many tourists expect something for nothing. For example, the recent poll about how much we pay for our bed room entertainment; how can some people - and I hope it really is a few, who expect at the age of 50 plus to pay a mere 500 baht for sex with someone who is unobtainable in our own countries for less than ten tmes that amount, let alone the choice we have. A better way of assessing what to pay is to make a comparispn of prices for food, clothing and wages and work out pro-rata what that means here. You would be lucky in London to find a professional boy less than ┬г100 a hour and that for the basic of services. That this is not europe is an arguement tht simply does not hold water.

Thaland is the last bastion we have of enjoying our way of life especially as we get older and - I incude myself in this - less attractive with our pot belies, thinning hair and fixed attitudes and expectations and inflexibility. It is on;y te few whingers about the cost of living, those living on strictly fixed incomes for example. If we just accept that there are somethings in life worth paying a little extra for such as sexual adventures then we would all have a better time.
We have it good here, thats why we keep coming back, year after year, or decide to make
our home here and it is pleasing to note that about 1,000 baht appears to be about average for short time payments - the price of a bottle of whiskey or a fill up (nearly) with car petrol in Britain. I know that living back in the UK again after many years break, I would empty my tank for just a very fast quickie to have the pleasure of an oriental skin pleasuring me for just a short time would be well worth the cost!

All generalisations are subject to exceptions; so please accept my comments as such with these rservations.

No - all your subsequent "rservations" refer exclusively to Thai bar boys, particularly those in Pattaya; your original comment refers to "Thais" in general, and you subsequently refer to "Thai people" with no qualifiers or reservations of any sort, and it is totally unjustified by anything you subsequently wrote.

" As to the generation question" if he was "a waiter in the early 1990s, about 20 years of age" and he " had two dayghters" who " are now themselves parents with almost teenage daughters" he must have been a father when he was between seven and ten years old, even if both his daughters married and produced at the minimum legal age, well before they " worked as cleaners in one of (your) bars."

Given that you appear to be mathematically challenged, it is no wonder that you think that for "about 1,000 baht" you can pay for "a fill up (nearly) with car petrol in Britain". The average price of a litre of unleaded in UK today is 110p (117p for super); your "1000 baht" would buy you about 14 litres - one third of a tank for a small car.

" You would be lucky in London to find a professional boy less than ┬г100 a hour and that for the basic of services. That this is not europe is an arguement tht simply does not hold water.

Actually the argument holds a lot of water, even if you only follow your own argument to "make a comparispn of prices for food, clothing and wages and work out pro-rata what that means here" - the minimum wage in UK, as of 1 October, is ┬г5.73 per hour (┬г45.84 / 2,862 baht per day); in Thailand it is between 148 and 203 baht per day, depending on the province. A ratio of between 19 and 14:1. According to your own "arguement", therefore, it would be fair to pay a "professional boy" in Pattaya or Bangkok between 330 and 445 baht.

Am I being petty and nitpicking by picking on the only points in geneman's posting which are verifiable? Yes. If these points are gross exaggerations, if not simply untrue, does it indicate that the rest of his post is probably very similar? Yes.

[Brad the Impala]

an insite into the guys brains......, sorry i cannot work the impossible, but you will need all that tact you can trying

Certainly some education would help.

Is this the Thai mindset

Yes it is. If one realizes that Thailand is a feudal society it becomes clear. I give you subservience, and in return you take care of me. (in all ways). Not understanding this is the cause of many misunderstanding between foreigners and Thais, especially if the foreigners are falang.

No it isn't. Thailand is not, nor has it ever been a "feudal society", in any recognised meaning of the word. I have also yet to know anyone in any form of relationship with a Thai who would describe them as "subservient"! As I asked you before, what country are you talking about?

[Brad the Impala]

I have always thought feudal describes the strict hierachy and system of patronage in Thai society quite well.

"Today, the word feudal is sometimes used as a general term for a set of social relationships that seems unprogressive or out of step with modern society."

"vassals were protected by lords who they had to serve in war"


dictionary.reference.com/browse/feudalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feudalism)

I have always thought feudal describes the strict hierachy and system of patronage in Thai society quite well.

Quite probably, Brad the Liar, but your knowledge of English has always been as limited as your thoughts, old or new. There is no patronage involved in feudalism, as your own reference makes clear (in spite of your usual selective editing). You are confusing this with seignorialism (or manorialism in England), which is totally different but still inappropriate to Thai society.

Possibly "some education would help", but it appears to be too late.

Thaland is the last bastion we have of enjoying our way of life especially as we get older The last one? Really? In the entire world? My wrist-slashing appointment is penciled in for 2.30pm

a meaningful long term relationship with a boy who's 18-25 y/o

And here we stumble across the opposite of the boy/child question.

I'll tell you the true story of "Jake," a young gay man who grew up in upper NY State, and by the age of 14-15 had concluded that he wanted OUT of his stifling middle-class existence. And, for Jake, "high school" had about as much value as "Harvard" had for Bill Gates. So Jake dropped out and ran away to NYC.

When I first knew him, some 20 years ago, Jake was still FURIOUS about all the American laws that stood between him and his freedom. Item: It is illegal to rent an apartment to a "minor." Item: it is illegal to hire a "minor." Mind you, we're talking about a young man on the move here. The issue was not so much sex, at all, as the LAW hampering him.

I came to know Jake because, in SF, he fell in love with my former BF. He was an e-mail friend only. But we exchanged a PILE of e-mails, and in many of them Jake let me know just what he thought of all the American laws designed to "protect the child." At the time we got to know one another, Jake was already on his second Internet startup, and he went on to cash in a bunch of stock-options and buy a house in SF, at around the age of 23.

How many people on this forum have done such a thing? (As opposed to people who disdain such people).

Anyhow, Jake was not a perfect human being (unlike some on this forum). He wrote a couple of books on computer software which were terrible.

BUT -- having published them -- he put them on his resume (none of his hiring managers, of course, could be bothered to look at Jake's books on (say) Global Internet Software Management with Java. And his strategy succeeded.

Which brings us back to the idea of a "boy" who is 25 years old. Would that include Tom Cruise? Would that include ambitious consultants around the world, aged 22-24, who are making more money per hour than I ever did? (Try $USD 150 per hour, for a "boy.")

Let me think...how old was Alexander the Great when he conquered the world? How old was Mozart when he became the reigning musician of Europe? Or, more poignantly, how old were they when they died?

Let me think...

Have we got that long?


how old was Alexander the Great when he conquered the world? How old was Mozart when he became the reigning musician of Europe? Or, more poignantly, how old were they when they died?

31 and 25 respectively (and, as far as "the world" and "reigning" are concerned, arguably a year or so later); died aged 35 and 32. Hardly "boys", particularly given life expectancy at the times.

[Beachlover]

I've been in a relationship with a Thai man of 40 now for closing in on 9 years. The first 7 years were of lengths of one to three months a year (before anyone here crawls up my ass about 'holiday relationships') and now we are into living under the same roof together going into our second year of longterm-ism.
To be perfectly frank, I do not recognize the stereotyped "Thai Guy" the posts above describe . . . he must be from Mars, for he is not living with this farang.
There are Thai guys like this (I guess I should know) ... but on the whole, rarely found in GoGo bars.[quote:1gvkc2nr]

I so agree with Smiles тАУ I do so hope to meet him and Suphot when I return to Thailand for the winter (d.v).

There have been some eminently sensible postings on this thread so I hope you will all forgive me if I contribute my three-penny worth.

Four years ago I suffered 2 heart attacks and while I was in hospital in Chonburi and out of intensive care a guy passed my bed every time he came to see his friend who was very ill with a brain tumour. He always smiled and said тАЬsawadi krapтАЭ and when - 8 days later тАУ his friend died, as he passed he held out his hand and said тАЬlast timeтАЭ and asked for my telephone no.

Two weeks later he telephoned me at my apartment and asked me if he could visit me.
For two weeks before I flew home he looked after me and attended to all my personal needs. He even came to see me off at Bangkok airport.

In the 3 years since, whenever I have come to Thailand (health permitting), despite him having to work extremely hard, he has been with me whenever he could. Whenever we go out somewhere: dinner, theatre, hire car, etc we always have an argument over who shall pay. Often he wins and so he pays. He says (in English which he has learnt) that we are equal and so why should I have to pay every time! He says he learnt English for me and despite giving me several books to help me, I, to my shame, have not managed to learn Thai. Also, although we did have a sexual relationship, it is not possible for me now but he says that it does not matter for him.

I am so lucky to have met someone like him - do you think that the fact that he is 40 and that I am nearly 30 years older has any bearing on our relationship?[/quote:1gvkc2nr]

Awww that is a sweet story...

[Beachlover]

a meaningful long term relationship with a boy who's 18-25 y/o

And here we stumble across the opposite of the boy/child question.

I'll tell you the true story of "Jake," a young gay man who grew up in upper NY State, and by the age of 14-15 had concluded that he wanted OUT of his stifling middle-class existence. And, for Jake, "high school" had about as much value as "Harvard" had for Bill Gates. So Jake dropped out and ran away to NYC.

When I first knew him, some 20 years ago, Jake was still FURIOUS about all the American laws that stood between him and his freedom. Item: It is illegal to rent an apartment to a "minor." Item: it is illegal to hire a "minor." Mind you, we're talking about a young man on the move here. The issue was not so much sex, at all, as the LAW hampering him.

I came to know Jake because, in SF, he fell in love with my former BF. He was an e-mail friend only. But we exchanged a PILE of e-mails, and in many of them Jake let me know just what he thought of all the American laws designed to "protect the child." At the time we got to know one another, Jake was already on his second Internet startup, and he went on to cash in a bunch of stock-options and buy a house in SF, at around the age of 23.

How many people on this forum have done such a thing? (As opposed to people who disdain such people).

Anyhow, Jake was not a perfect human being (unlike some on this forum). He wrote a couple of books on computer software which were terrible.

BUT -- having published them -- he put them on his resume (none of his hiring managers, of course, could be bothered to look at Jake's books on (say) Global Internet Software Management with Java. And his strategy succeeded.

Which brings us back to the idea of a "boy" who is 25 years old. Would that include Tom Cruise? Would that include ambitious consultants around the world, aged 22-24, who are making more money per hour than I ever did? (Try $USD 150 per hour, for a "boy.")

Let me think...how old was Alexander the Great when he conquered the world? How old was Mozart when he became the reigning musician of Europe? Or, more poignantly, how old were they when they died?


Yeah true... there will always be exceptions.

No problem with generalising or stereotyping as long as you accept a stereotype doesn't apply to everyone...

Guys go through different phases... some think ahead, some don't. And you just have to realise this. You can't expect to beat it into someone... and no point getting frustrated about it. If someone you love is a bit of an airhead, just accept it. Perhaps gently point them in the right direction and offer some guidance, but no point ranting and banging your head against the wall in frustration. It's their life, their problems, their decisions and their desires they want to meet after all... not yours!

[bing]

Uncle Uncle Uncle, I give up... Yes, yes, I have no idea what is a seignior. We of the colonies have know idea what a seignoir is. Feudal Lords are not listed in our normal lexicons. I almost had a spiritual erection seeing a word I did not comprehend. You keep up the good work girl.