Apocalpse Now - why Americans have no sense of perspective

http://housingpanic.blogspot.com/

Is it the Puritan heritage, this peculiarly American belief that the Apocalypse is just a round the corner? Remember all those books pre-Y2K, about stocking up? The whole industry has recycled itself and it's now the housing bust. The world as we know it is coming to an end - the world, in this case, being America. It's of a piece with the "Why us? Why are we under attack? It's the end of the world" attitude post September 11, when in fact the US had been exporting funding for terror and training foreigners in terrorist techniques for thirty years. It's no wonder fruitcakes like Henry Cate can sincerely assert that America "rescued" Europe in two world wars. There's just no grip on reality

[Bob]

It's no wonder fruitcakes like Henry Cate can sincerely assert that America "rescued" Europe in two world wars.

Other than Henry not being a fruitcake, he's at least correct that we did do the two rescues. And be thankful that we didn't fuck that up (like we do so many things with such ease) or you'd likely be speaking German right now. Verstehen sie das, Colonel Klink?

[Marsilius]

Any so-called "rescue" of Europe was the incidental by-product of the USA needing to counter-attack Germany, a country that had declared war on it. America's going to war was not an altruistic decision to rescue anybody - it was, rather, an unavoidable response to the fact that war had been declared upon it by the power that was occupying Western Europe at the time.

[Bob]

Geez, we kicked your asses out of here 300 years ago, rescue your sorry asses twice in the last century, and now your poking at our motives. Hell, let's just say our reason was to save Big Ben because we figured he had a huge swanz.

Other than Henry not being a fruitcake, he's at least correct that we did do the two rescues.This probably won't come as news to you, Bob, but I've always regarded you as a right-wing fruitcake

[Bob]

This probably won't come as news to you, Bob, but I've always regarded you as a right-wing fruitcake

I'm not sure if I'll lose sleep tonight over that or not. I'll advise in the morning.

Any so-called "rescue" of Europe was the incidental by-product of the USA needing to counter-attack Germany, a country that had declared war on it. America's going to war was not an altruistic decision to rescue anybody - it was, rather, an unavoidable response to the fact that war had been declared upon it by the power that was occupying Western Europe at the time.

I might agree it was not an altruistic decision to go to war with Germany. It was a geopolitical necessity. We could not, for our own future survival, allow Germany to control Europe, or Japan to control the Far East.

But whatever the motive, we still bailed your asses out.

I'm not sure if I'll lose sleep tonight over that or not. I'll advise in the morning.My young nieces and nephews invariable sleep well and as we all know, you've never claimed to be a grown-up. I don't think there's a doubt about whether you'll lose any sleep

[Bob]

I don't think there's a doubt about whether you'll lose any sleep

Come on, Homi, life isn't much fun without a little suspense. :cheers:

I don't think there's a doubt about whether you'll lose any sleepCome on, Homi, life isn't much fun without a little suspenseEach to their own perversion, I suppose

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Geez, we kicked your asses out of here 300 years ago, rescue your sorry asses twice in the last century, and now your poking at our motives. Hell, let's just say our reason was to save Big Ben because we figured he had a huge swanz.

A further examination is required of those wondrous events before simple statements .

The event sited so often-the Boston Tea Party reveals that the insane King George had spent nearly 200 thousand pounds trying to obtain about 1000 pounds in taxes-the colonialists having set in store a capacity to avoid paying taxes that exists to the current day ( Wall Street ?)

Nor were these colonialists a sort "we" as opposed to "them" ( being the English) ..they were virtually exactly the same-just taking advantage of being away from the boss and deciding he wasn't needed. From then on the "we" proceeded to adopt every British custom -after all it would strange if they hadn't a that was were they were from !. All British social customs were incorporated into daily life with then end result-the US has a huge prudish swag that still weilds power today ( the Christian Right).

It was only mass European immigration that followed that turned the US into the wonderful place it is ( and that includes the perfect Irish !).

[Bob]

All British social customs were incorporated into daily life with then end result-the US has a huge prudish swag that still weilds power today ( the Christian Right).


Lunch, now I know why Homi reminds me of Pat Robertson! God talks directlly to Pat too (although not through a Thai boy's rectum).

Just a little funnin' from the colonies, Colonel....

It was only mass European immigration that followed that turned the US into the wonderful place it is.Irony is completely wasted on Americans, Doris - they simply don't get it. However I also believe that (by and large) the US is a wonderful place - vibrant, rich and varied, with a robust economy that will get over this current blip. It's only lunatics like Osama bin Laden who believe that knocking over a couple of scyscrapers could bring such a country to its knees. But then you listen to all the crack-pot Americans who apparently believe the self-same thing - a few desk jockeys have buggered up bits of the financial system* and it's the end of the world as we know it. As ikarus apparently believes, the thing to do is to sell up all your assets in the world's richest, most varied and vibrant economy, convert them into the currency of some emerging banana republic that's anyway dependant on the US economy (China springs immediately to mind, but even a backwater like Thailand will do) and buy up ramshackle beachside dwellings where you can sit out the coming apocalypse. Despite all my frustrations with the insularity, puritanism and sheer idiocy of parts of the American culture, it's still a place I'd rather have than not. Australia's rather the same, thankfully without the religiosity

* for the benefit of American readers, that is known as typical English understatement

....The event sited so often-the Boston Tea Party reveals that the insane King George had spent nearly 200 thousand pounds trying to obtain about 1000 pounds in taxes-the colonialists having set in store a capacity to avoid paying taxes that exists to the current day ( Wall Street ?)

A gross oversimplification. I would suggest you read the Declaration of Independence for a fuller list of grievances and better understanding of the "causes that impel them to the separation".
Declaration of Independence text (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm)


....It was only mass European immigration that followed that turned the US into the wonderful place it is ( and that includes the perfect Irish !).

I would also submit that you're ignoring the HUGE contribution of the millions of Africans that were forcibly brought to this continent and the native populations that, even though almost exterminated, also had a profound impact on our outlook.

But that's ok, I luvs ya anyway Boozy. :love7:

Homitern has a point.
That Puritan Apocalyptic vein in America has been a particular thorn in my side and for personal reasons.
And I think the problem is exacerbated in recent times by the decline of the Old Guard WASP populations and their dilution sucessively by the Irish, Italians and Mexicans/Latinos who are all Catholic.
It should be pointed out that the the Catholic Church has "wholly cast aside the doctrine of a millennium previous to the resurrection". (source:www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5b.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5b.htm)
In other words, they teach the "Apocylpse" is bunkum.

I've come to believe that "Millenialism" is just a person's confusion of their own mortality with that of the world as a whole. Kind of like a "Hitler in the Bunker" mentality - "if I'm going to die the whole world might as well go down with me".


Oh, the "personal reasons".
My sister is an inveterate "millenialist" and every couple of years thinks the world is going to end. I've been through I don't know how many arguments with her about Nostradamus, "The Late Great Planet Earth", the Mayan Calendar, Y2K, the "Planets Aligning", Erik van Danikan and the comet Whatwhosis that's gonna smack the Earth in 2012.
Once I got pissed (literally and figuratively) and asked her if she really believed it all why didn't she just blow her brains out and get it over with.

That suggestion didn't go over too well.

We avoid talking about these kinds of subjects now.

Once I got pissed (literally and figuratively) and asked her if she really believed it all why didn't she just blow her brains out and get it over withI feel the same way about people who think that Jesus is wetting himself with excitement over the thought that they'll be in Heaven one day

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

[quote=Lunchtime O'Booze]....The event sited so often-the Boston Tea Party reveals that the insane King George had spent nearly 200 thousand pounds trying to obtain about 1000 pounds in taxes-the colonialists having set in store a capacity to avoid paying taxes that exists to the current day ( Wall Street ?)

A gross oversimplification. I would suggest you read the Declaration of Independence for a fuller list of grievances and better understanding of the "causes that impel them to the separation".
Declaration of Independence text (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm)


....It was only mass European immigration that followed that turned the US into the wonderful place it is ( and that includes the perfect Irish !).

I would also submit that you're ignoring the HUGE contribution of the millions of Africans that were forcibly brought to this continent and the native populations that, even though almost exterminated, also had a profound impact on our outlook.

But that's ok, I luvs ya anyway Boozy. :love7:[/quote:12yovq8m]

I did..and I got to the second paragraph and was stopped in my tracks by this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

...that all men are created equal,?..what on earth does that man ?..in size, colour, big, small...???

a quaint document nethertheless and surely meant for the noblest possible reasons even though those that wrote went on for years keeping black slaves.

should have least said.."that all white men are created equal"....but that wouldn't even be true...certainly not equal as in rich and poor ..most are born entirely different..born into wealth..into poverty..etc .

Im mad as hell and not going to take it anymore !

At least this seems to me, to be a rather strange question for a Socialist to ask:


I did..and I got to the second paragraph and was stopped in my tracks by this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

...that all men are created equal,?..what on earth does that man ?..in size, colour, big, small...???

It means, M. du Dejeuner, that men are created with equal rights. And that alone is a huge job for government to try to enforce. How, for example, can we support the right to freedom of action and also support equal justice? Not only can the wealthy hire super-lawyers by the limousine-ful, they can also hire people to appear in the judge's chambers with retirement funds in a briefcase. So I would say that enforcing "equal rights" is, all by itself, something that America has already failed at. Did we learn from that failure? I don't think so!

In these days of decline, the statement has been misinterpreted over and over again. It seems obvious beyond speaking that people are not equal in beauty, intelligence, stature, or cock-size. Neither are they equally generous, brave, trustworthy, &c.

The original wording spelled out the meaning explicitly, but alas some fool thought that it was so obvious that he edited it out. Since at least 1950, the original wording has been regarded as the province of right-wing wackos.

SOME people even think that the Constitution states that all people are equally smart.

We may have no sense of perspective, but at least we can spell apocalypse correctly.

[cottmann]

.....
A gross oversimplification. I would suggest you read the Declaration of Independence for a fuller list of grievances and better understanding of the "causes that impel them to the separation".
Declaration of Independence text (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm)....

The Declaration of Independence is, in the parts to which you refer, a wonderful piece of propaganda, but don't take it as being true. I believe that one American historian even went so far as to call the document "the defense brief for the treason trial."

The Declaration of Independence is, in the parts to which you refer, a wonderful piece of propaganda, but don't take it as being true. I believe that one American historian even went so far as to call the document "the defense brief for the treason trial."There's an interesting Blog by the radical Left in America stating that the Declaration of Indepence would never pass through the current presidency - http://www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archiv ... 84259.html (http://www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archives/2006/7/5/2084259.html)

We learn from history that we learn nothing from history.
- George Bernard Shaw

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

".....It means, M. du Dejeuner, that men are created with equal rights."

Wall Street bankers are created more equal than other men.

besides, what you say isn't what it actually says although I do know that part of the Bush Doctrine means interpreting it whatever way suits him.

So the tenets of that wonderful documant are either ignored or misinterpreted by both the people and the powers that be. As it is obvious in the good ole USA, all men are definitely not created (or treated) equally. And that stupidity about the so-called right to bear arms, just means the freedom for bad tempered folks to shoot each other with impunity.Two great quotations from Maureen Dowd's column this morning (a very funny column about Sarah Palin's visit to (or as the Americans would say, with) Henry Kissinger) -

After losing its moral superiority abroad with phony evidence for attacking Iraq, the U.S. has now lost its moral superiority in the financial arena. Once more, W. took the ball, carried it off the cliff and went biking.And especially for Henry Cate
Republicans, who have won so many elections painting Democrats as socialists and pinkos, have now done so much irresponsible deregulating and deficit spending that they have to avoid fiscal Armageddon by turning America into a socialist, pinko society with nationalized financial institutions and a financial czar accountable to no one and no law.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/opinion/24dowd.html

[thrillbill]

Since living and traveling overseas, it has made me realized how patriotic Americans are (I am also from the USA). I thought this would be normal for people who lived in democratic countries, but it's not (I am not counting soccer games.) You'll see Americans flying the "red, white, and blue" in front of their houses, the flag stuck on their cars, and even wearing flag pins on their jackets. As the King in Thailand helps to unite the various people in Thailand, patriotism seems to unite Americans. It can even be used as a propaganda tool by Washington giving the impression that if you disagree with foreign policy, then you are unpatriotic. If you are a REAL patriot, then you'll join the army. Now it will be interesting how "American patriotism" will be campaigned for the taxpayers to "pay the bills" of the fat cats and not get pissed off.

Since living and traveling overseas, it has made me realized how patriotic Americans are (I am also from the USA). I thought this would be normal for people who lived in democratic countries, but it's not (I am not counting soccer games.) You'll see Americans flying the "red, white, and blue" in front of their houses, the flag stuck on their cars, and even wearing flag pins on their jackets.I have a different theory - the American flag is the ONLY thing Americans have in common, so they cling to it desperately. That's why burning the flag is such a huge issue

The point I was trying to make was the problem between the Colonies and the Home Country went a lot deeper than high taxes. Few people like to go beyond the lofty verbage of the "preamble" because the main body of the Declaration is.... well to be honest, a bore.
There is quite an extensive list of grievances though, and they are serious. And the Colonists tried several times to petition the Royal Government and were either slapped in the face or ignored completely.

Ultimately its the same problem in any "Colonial" economic/political sytem. The colonies are disenfranchised and the Home Government takes advantage. Eventually the colonists take advantage of the weaknesses of the colonizer and rebel.

[cottmann]

The point I was trying to make was the problem between the Colonies and the Home Country went a lot deeper than high taxes. Few people like to go beyond the lofty verbage of the "preamble" because the main body of the Declaration is.... well to be honest, a bore.
There is quite an extensive list of grievances though, and they are serious. And the Colonists tried several times to petition the Royal Government and were either slapped in the face or ignored completely.

Disaffected colonials accounted for between 20% and 30% of the inhabitants of the colonies, and were mostly merchants and aristocratic plantation owners like Washington, deeply in debt to London financiers.


Ultimately its the same problem in any "Colonial" economic/political sytem. The colonies are disenfranchised and the Home Government takes advantage. Eventually the colonists take advantage of the weaknesses of the colonizer and rebel.

Hello, now you know why the end of the American Empire arouses so-called anti-American feelings!!

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Since living and traveling overseas, it has made me realized how patriotic Americans are (I am also from the USA). I thought this would be normal for people who lived in democratic countries, but it's not (I am not counting soccer games.) You'll see Americans flying the "red, white, and blue" in front of their houses, the flag stuck on their cars, and even wearing flag pins on their jackets. As the King in Thailand helps to unite the various people in Thailand, patriotism seems to unite Americans. It can even be used as a propaganda tool by Washington giving the impression that if you disagree with foreign policy, then you are unpatriotic. If you are a REAL patriot, then you'll join the army. Now it will be interesting how "American patriotism" will be campaigned for the taxpayers to "pay the bills" of the fat cats and not get pissed off.

well I'm a "patriotic American" ( as in Ich bin ein Berliner ) but I find all those US flags in the front gardens a little bit creepy.

Sad, as along with the Union Jack it's the best designed flag on the planet.

Displays of flags everywhere, including on clothing and uniforms, to me, shows a real sense of insecurity.I loved the Robin Williams character in Man of the Year, talking about the American flag on a g-string, "disappearing up grandma's crack"

Displays of flags everywhere, including on clothing and uniforms, to me, shows a real sense of insecurity.I loved the Robin Williams character in Man of the Year, talking about the American flag on a g-string, "disappearing up grandma's crack"

And I thought you hated all American films!

...Disaffected colonials accounted for between 20% and 30% of the inhabitants of the colonies, and were mostly merchants and aristocratic plantation owners like Washington, deeply in debt to London financiers....

Ah HA! That then explains all the Merchants and Aristocrats fighting the Redcoats at Lexington and Concord!

Next on "British History Tonight" - how Ghandi and a bunch of elitist educated Indian Lawyers in the National Congress and disaffected Indian merchants duped the Indian people into fighting for their independence. The whole mess was only over a paltry salt tax.


....now you know why the end of the American Empire arouses so-called anti-American feelings!!

Yes, I agree. I've been trying to tell that to my countrymen for years. And a lot of times (not always) all I seem to get back is garbage like "how dare you compare the Patriots to the Terrorists!!!"

I just roll my eyes and sigh.

[Wesley]

One of the better American threads, and most even Homiturn's I can agree with. It's so rare to see some although kicking and screaming all the way to the end agree that the USA is not so bad, nor is the world coming to and end any time soon lest some asteroid fall out of orbit, I submit we will still be here in some form or another hundreds of thousands of years from now. The Christian right wants we to believe the end are near so that we will not bet on tomorrow as a new opportunity. I remain with my glass half full almost all the time, even now. I even yet finally see some hope for Homiturn whom after this I will forgive all former arguments realizing he just enjoys pushing your buttons and actually does have a brain after all. I have always known Mr. Booze was all there, now I am sure that even Homiturn may as well not be such a bad chap after all. It was amusing to see him come out of his self imposed shell and speak from his heart. Although, I am sure tomorrow he will wake up in full drag realizing, he had taken his medication too early when he wrote the points in this thread.

Wes

A lone figure burst into a room in Washington a few days ago and demanded billions of dollars for needy bankers or the world's economic system would collapse. Pity he wasn't shot like any other terrorist would have been.

[cottmann]

...Disaffected colonials accounted for between 20% and 30% of the inhabitants of the colonies, and were mostly merchants and aristocratic plantation owners like Washington, deeply in debt to London financiers....

Ah HA! That then explains all the Merchants and Aristocrats fighting the Redcoats at Lexington and Concord!...

Okay, so my comment of 20-30% was a little low, but "Historians now estimate that 40 percent of the colonists supported the revolution, 20 percent remained with England, and 40 percent were neutral, or didnтАЩt care. Almost 18,000 Loyalists joined the British army and fought against the United States." (http://www.olvera-street.com/html/fourth_of_july.html)

On the other hand, "No one knows for sure how many Americans remained loyal to Great Britain. The Massachusetts political leader, John Adams, thought about thirty-three percent of the colonists supported independence, thirty-three percent supported Britain, and thirty-three percent supported neither side. Most history experts today think that about twenty per cent of the colonists supported Britain. They say the others were neutral or supported whichever side seemed to be winning, "

and,

"As many as thirty thousand Americans fought for the British during the war. Others helped Britain by reporting the movements of American rebel troops." (VOA Special, THE MAKING OF A NATION #14 - American Revolution: Whose Side Are You On?, By Nancy Steinbach, May 29, 2003, online at http://www.manythings.org/voa/03/030529mn_t.htm).

As historians such as Calhoon have estimated that 15-20 percent of the white population were Loyalists, while Middlekauff estimated that about 19 percent of the white population, remained loyal to Britain, and others state that the Loyalist received active support from 40-45% of the population.

There was certainly not unanimous support among the colonists for independence.

On debt, on George Washington: "In addition, he shared the usual planter's dilemma in being continually in debt to his London agents" (http://sc94.ameslab.gov/TOUR/gwash.html). Washington used an inheritance from his step-daughter to pay them off. Thomas Jefferson and others were also deeply indebted to London financiers.

"In 1776, the mainland colonies in the Americans owed London financiers 1.3 million pounds" (p.124, RC Nash, The organization trade and finance in the British Atlantic colonies, in The organization of Atlantic Economy during the 17th and 18th centuries, ed. Peter Coclanis.)

Part of the reason for this huge debt was that the British had not allowed the colonials to establish their own banks. Supporting the revolution allowed the merchants, etc., to do so and, until recently, whoever met a poor banker?

[francois]

, I submit we will still be here in some form or another hundreds of thousands of years from now.
Wes[/quote]
Same as the dinosaurs, as fossils.

[Wesley]

, I submit we will still be here in some form or another hundreds of thousands of years from now.
Wes
Same as the dinosaurs, as fossils.[/quote]

I suggest that we may be here in some form or another, why certainly, if I can learn to spell itтАЩs a sure sign that there is yet still hope for the human race. We tend to do all that is wrong, yet we survive in some way or another .Lesser and greater civilizations have fallen and gone with the idea that surely the end must be near, we are still here. I can remember the stories of the rapture and the soon Apocalypse as a kid, yet we remain. In the end certainly some of us like cock roaches will remain in some shape form or greater repulsive manner. I am not a dooms day kind of person. I tend to think we will outthink out demise as surely as the Americans will figure out a way to still drive a car with out oil. We could go the way of the dinasaures but itтАЩs more likely than not we will survive ourselves in some manner not yet invented.