San Francisco

I wonder how many people really know or understand San Francisco.

I am a California boy myself, but spent my life in La Jolla and Santa Barbara (and a bit in L.A.) I only moved to SF when I was compelled to do so by my former BF's need for an American education. I was coming from a life in Chiang Mai and had nothing. Fortunately, my old friend from Iran was now a landlord and had a studio available for me. I bought a bed and went to work...in Oakland.

This means that I got up in the morning, took a Muni bus from the Haight down to Civic Center, and then took BART to Oakland. The reverse in the evening, of course. I was working for a software startup called Forte Software, Inc.. Virtually nobody in SF understood the meaning of this.

I was already well aware of SF's self-promotion as a "gay Mecca." On weekends, I would take the bus (or later, my little old Toyota) over to the Castro and visit there. I found a lot of "professional homosexuals" living there, including the guys wearing leather pants with the bare ass showing.

It may have been a "gay Mecca," but I found neither sex nor friends there. On the contrary, I soon settled into a ghastly solitude of work-sleep-work. I spent more time with my Thai bf (on the phone) than I did with any gay American living in "the gay Mecca." Including my bearded friend from Iran.

Well, by then I was 46 years old. I guess the gay folks were right to count me out. Even in "the gay Mecca."

And then! My boyfriend arrived, a lovely young man from Thailand who had just finished high school and was ready to embark on his college education! He was not quite 21, and therefore couldn't get into the gay bars in "the gay Mecca." But he did manage to meet some gay people, at milk bars, etc., and I was surprised to discover first-hand evidence of American racism!

The first example was the worst. Some dude, 30yo, who used my former BF to help him move (in South San Francisco) and then dumped him, the very next day!

I mean, can you imagine? A really cute guy, running around SF, and being treated as a mere "Asian??"

Sometime after that, the former BF looked at me seriously, and said, "Henry, do you think of me as 'your Asian lover?' " I replied, "No, never, I only think of you as [name deleted]." Which was the simple truth.

As the three years wore on, [name deleted] grew sick and tired of the SF gay scene. Beyond that, as an acting major, he simply couldn't get roles in student productions (he had an accent, and did not look like Johnny Walton). So he decided to finish his college education in Thailand. It was a good decision (for him).

But San Francisco? The one memory which stands indelible for me is the GLARES we got in the Castro when we walked along together. ("Read my lips, this boy is way too YOUNG for you!") And then he had a very good idea...we would walk "together," but with him six paces or so in front, so we would not appear as a "couple."

And then the cruising started! Talk about middle-class American hypocrisy at its finest! "This boy is way too young for YOU, but he looks just about right for ME!"

And for final hilarity, there was the lesbian who cruised him. She thought she was looking at a tom-boy, and circled in on him. At the last moment, something must have tipped her off ("This is a male!") and she retreated in horror.

Politically, SF is one of most idiotic cities in the world.

Now it's your turn!

[thrillbill]

-Interesting insight. I am from the States, but have never experienced the San Francisco scene but I think what you say fits many gay cities in America(and it doesn't have to be in the "gay" scene). The American culture places too much of a wall around age groups... a 20 something year old looks at a 40 year old (or a 40 something year old looks at a 20 year old) as a seperate society, as if there is nothing to be shared between the two age ranges. Heaven forbid if you are caught socializing with someone where there is a 20...30... year age difference. We at times are too judgemental-me included. It IS POSSIBLE to make gay friends of all ages in the US, but it doesn't come easily. That is what is refreshing in LOS, there is a different attitude towards older vs younger; younger vs older --not a big wall between the generations in knowing one another at a social basis. (and I find it genuine, not just for money). I enjoy being with a mix group of ages in a group when going out-it keeps us more in touch.

PS what happened to the "old" Thai BF that is now back in Thailand?

I wonder how many people really know or understand San Francisco....

Well Honey, you're obviously not one of them!



...I found neither sex nor friends there. On the contrary, I soon settled into a ghastly solitude of work-sleep-work....

Well then you only have yourself to blame.

I'm not sure when you were around but I'm guessing the early to mid 90's? Unfortunately you (and I) missed all the really wild and fun times of the 70's before AIDS hit the place like a Nutron Bomb. The Gay scene here was very dark and dismal in the 80's and early 90's. Then the Dot.com boom hit and the new antiviral cocktails became avaliable and the place came to life again. The Castro has never really recovered though and there is much discussion about its "gentrification". It is much as you described it. But it still has the biggest concentration of Gay Bars in the city The "Gay Scene" has spread out mostly to the South of Market, Polk St and even in the gritty Tenderloin.

Of course the "gay scene" is nothing like Thailand. There are no "host bars" or "go-go bars" even thought there are "money boys" around. There are only 2 "sex clubs" (that i know of) and there's always Craigslist. In other words its not an open air brothel like Pattaya.

But is a "Gay Mecca" only measured by the avaliability of easy/cheap sex?

The last figure I saw was that 40% of the population here identifies as LGBT. There is a sensibility that pervades the place that its ok to be gay and go about your life. You can get a job without worries. Everywhere you go to shop or eat is filled with "family" and you never feel awkward. You and your hubby can buy a house and get married and have kids without the neighbors raising an eyebrow.


.... The one memory which stands indelible for me is the GLARES we got in the Castro when we walked along together. ("Read my lips, this boy is way too YOUNG for you!") And then he had a very good idea...we would walk "together," but with him six paces or so in front, so we would not appear as a "couple."

And then the cruising started! .....

:cheers: Yes, Queens are the same all over the world, aren't they? :laughing3:


.... Politically, SF is one of most idiotic cities in the world....

Yes, and among other things we'll be voting in November on legalizing Prostitution. Oh, and also naming the Sewer Plant after George Bush (I kid you not!) :occasion8:

Sorry Henry, you're just a so. cal. right wing fuddy-duddy and you just don't get it.

And believe it or not there's still an old time San Francisco can-do spirit that pervades the place. It's a left wing Labor spirit. The sprit that rebuilt the city after the the Great Earthquake and Fire of 1906. The spirit that built the Liberty Ships at the Kaiser plant that helped win WW2. The spirit that turned a goldmining boomtown into "the Paris of the West".
(you didn't think you'd get away without one of KenC's Fri night youtube clips did you?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-riSwIev23U&feature=PlayList&p=64220A531D66BC1D&index=30

The Denouement after the last youtube clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAoNDihnfbc&feature=PlayList&p=64220A531D66BC1D&index=3

A little bit after I wrote this we just had a small earthquake....


Small SF earthquake (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsus/Quakes/nc51207740.php#details)

Well, kenc, how would you define a "Gay Mecca?"


But is a "Gay Mecca" only measured by the avaliability of easy/cheap sex?

Well, that's certainly one thing to take into consideration. I spent five lonely years in San Francisco. You say that that's all my fault, but try to forget your defensive crouch for a moment. My BOYFRIEND also spent five lonely years in San Francisco. At the end of the third year, as a devastatingly cute Thai boy, he was simply boiling over with enthusiasm to get back to Thailand. I guess that was all his fault, too.

You say, with the same breath, that SF is extraordinarily tolerant of gays, and yet admit that bf and I got a lot of hostile glares in the Castro. Your comment, "Well, aren't queens the same everywhere?"

No. They may be the same all over America, but the situation in Thailand is utterly different. In Chiang Mai, if I go walking around with my bf (who looks about 16 but is now 23 going on 24) I may get one or two glances from Thai people, who quickly return to their own business when they see & realize that we have known one another forever, are very comfortable in one another's company, and so on. The real Glares come from @Fat White Cows, who sometimes even Glare at me walking around by myself! I used to wonder about that, until I realized that there was an entire @Fat White Cow community dedicated to the proposition that all single men living in Thailand are Evil.

Sometimes, particularly clueless hippie farang backpacker boys give me the Glare, also, if they see me with my boyfriend. Amazing...even if they are Swedish....maybe Political Correctness trumps Freedom.

Anyway, kenc, I think you are a great contributor to this board, and even though you stated something like, "Henry is a clueless idiot," cheers! After all, I live HERE and you live THERE. :-) :-) :-) :-)

ttfn,

[Davey612]

Henry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. You spent five miserable years here and you are trying to blame everyone else.

Do you think you would have fared better in any other American city?

The issue is that you claim you and your partner are viewed different, but have you tried joining other groups? San Francisco is not a perfect gay utopia but you would certainly find a group to belong. Pacific Friends comes to mind. But then maybe you are afraid that those older white gay guys would be after your young Thai bf.

I am glad that you are happy in CM. But let me ask you why? Is it because of CM or because of you?

... clearly all the women (including the drag queens) would be wearing the burkha

[Wesley]

I dont even try in the usa, I am afraid of Fox's Mr Bill

Wes

Ok I get it. You didn't like San Francisco. Chiang Mai is your little piece of heaven.
And so....??

Sure, I'll be the first to admit if you're a 60 year old guy looking for sex with lots of cute asian guys this is not the place for you. This is NOT Thailand and you won't find the same kind of thing here, or anywhere in the west except maybe Amsterdam.
And yes, if you are not of a Liberal frame of mind politically you will not have a good time here either any more than I would have a nice time in, oh I dunno, Houston or Salt Lake City.

When I think about what you posted I realize you could be a poster child for all those dot.com'ers that blew into town in the 90's. A lot of them came here thinking they were Masters of the Universe and were going to change the world and make a shitload of money to boot. Instead of coming to embrace the local culture they brought their own little bubble of whatever with them and stayed in it all the time they were here. They buried themselves in their work and when they did come up for air I found them not to be very "fun" to be around.
And when the bubble popped some were able to cash out with oodles of money but all of them just left without making a mark on the culture and with the rest of us scratching out heads wondering what it was all about.
And I say again, anyone who didn't have fun when they were here only have themselves to blame (esp with all the money they were making).

I realize not everyone who comes here is going to like it. Your Thai boyfriend might have done better in LA with it's large Thai expat community - though I doubt you would have had much fun in West Hollywood.
And not everyone who goes to Chiang Mai is going to like it there either.

Oh and BTW, I never said you were "a clueless idiot". I said you were a nut.
And politically I still think you are. :geek:

And yes, if you are not of a Liberal frame of mind politically you will not have a good time here either any more than I would have a nice time in, oh I dunno, Houston or Salt Lake City.What's wrong with Houston, pray tell? The Lad spent 15 years of his life there, and as you can see it didn't harm him

Ok I get it. You didn't like San Francisco. Chiang Mai is your little piece of heaven.
And so....??

Sure, I'll be the first to admit if you're a 60 year old guy looking for sex with lots of cute asian guys this is not the place for you. This is NOT Thailand and you won't find the same kind of thing here, or anywhere in the west except maybe Amsterdam.
And yes, if you are not of a Liberal frame of mind politically you will not have a good time here either any more than I would have a nice time in, oh I dunno, Houston or Salt Lake City.

When I think about what you posted I realize you could be a poster child for all those dot.com'ers that blew into town in the 90's. A lot of them came here thinking they were Masters of the Universe and were going to change the world and make a shitload of money to boot. Instead of coming to embrace the local culture they brought their own little bubble of whatever with them and stayed in it all the time they were here. They buried themselves in their work and when they did come up for air I found them not to be very "fun" to be around.
And when the bubble popped some were able to cash out with oodles of money but all of them just left without making a mark on the culture and with the rest of us scratching out heads wondering what it was all about.
And I say again, anyone who didn't have fun when they were here only have themselves to blame (esp with all the money they were making).

I realize not everyone who comes here is going to like it. Your Thai boyfriend might have done better in LA with it's large Thai expat community - though I doubt you would have had much fun in West Hollywood.
And not everyone who goes to Chiang Mai is going to like it there either.

Oh and BTW, I never said you were "a clueless idiot". I said you were a nut.
And politically I still think you are. :geek:

Now, two postings saying that my point was not clear make me realize that my point was not clear! Actually, I didn't have so much of a "point" to make as an attempt, in the first part of a series, to paint a portrait of San Francisco, which would bring out its great beauties and great attractions as a tourist destination -- and contrast those with daily life in the City, as well as to describe its reputation as a "Gay Mecca" and describe the realities underneath that. But I obviously hit some real hot spots with some people, which makes me think I should carry on. I might mention, for example, San Francisco, New York, and Los Angeles as the three large American cities where untrammeled sexual promiscuity spawned the HIV virus which has killed millions worldwide, plus the nonstop attempt to blame that on Ronald Reagan and the long resistance against the attempt to shut down the bathhouses.

But just for now, you're all wrong with your dot.com chronology. I worked in the Silicon Valley for 23 years, and for a lot of that time I has living with a boyfriend from Palo Alto who "hated" San Francisco. He hated the bums, the homeless, and the squalor to be found away from the major tourist centers. So, for obvious reasons, I didn't visit very often. I was a Sunnyvale--Cupertino kind of guy, which -- as I later learned -- the "smart set" in SF sneered at. "Pencil-neck geeks," or something like that. The people in SF never seemed to acknowledge, or realize, that the "geeks" in the Silicon Valley were changing the world. kenc, look at the keyboard you're typing on, and think what your computer connects to. San Francisco played NO PART AT ALL in making that happen, but I did.

In any case, I LEFT the Valley in 1992 to go live in Chiang Mai on a trial retirement, and returned to live in San Francisco from 1994-1998. Then I got a job as a consultant for Forte software which paid $100 per hour, and began commuting to and from such THRILLING places as Salt Lake City and St. Louis. (I should not that my Thai boyfriend LOVED the gay scene in Salt Lake, though!). Then I moved to Atlanta for a year, got a brief gig in Australia, and wound up in Austin, Texas. The company went under and so I RETURNED to the Valley at the exact time of the dot.com mania. I had been renting a 2-BR apartment in Cupertino for $1100; when I returned to the very same place I was told that the rent was now $2800 per month, and a 1-BR was $1870!! Not only that, but the whole apartment complex was suddenly full of Indians -- nice people, but the scents of curry cooking in the evening were something new in Cupertino. I went up to SF on occasion, and my landlord friend was suddenly a Rich Man -- the dot.com explosion had really made his ship come in, and, even after it went POP! -- he had rents at a much higher point then ever before. (SF lives under rent control).

So, to make my point clear, I am NOT a "poster child" for the dot.com people who blew into town in the 90's. I was a resident of the Valley for decades before that. But it was a reasonable thrust in the dark, I guess.

I am glad that you concede the point that Chiang Mai is a much better place to live for 60yo's than SF. What may surprise you is that it's not just 60yo's who have more fun here! But, anyway, liberal swipes at old men are something I am well accustomed to. After all, I'm a nut!!! :-)

I understand Henry's feeling about San Francisco, I feel the same way about Kuala Terengganu. Sometimes things just don't work out and all you've got to tell for it is a nasty bitter memory. It can cloud your judgement completely. An incident of racism would do that for me any day.

In my case it was paranoia fuelled by a rabid anti homosexual nation and the use of anti malarial drugs. Love the rest of Malaysia though.

I understand Henry's feeling about San Francisco, I feel the same way about Kuala Terengganu. Sometimes things just don't work out and all you've got to tell for it is a nasty bitter memory. It can cloud your judgement completely. An incident of racism would do that for me any day.

In my case it was paranoia fuelled by a rabid anti homosexual nation and the use of anti malarial drugs. Love the rest of Malaysia though.

I'd rather go back to SF than LA. But Santa Barbara would be my first choice, I guess.

Soon after I arrived in San Francisco (in 1994) I became acutely aware of the fact that blacks hated me.

Now, you can use whatever term you like (blacks/Blacks/African-Americans) but whenever I came into contact with a person of that race, it became clear that he hated me.

And they made it public (on the Muni, where perhaps kenc's Golden Slipper has never trod). They would (voluntarily) sit in the back of the bus, and make such comments as, "Yeah, I really puked my ass off at that party on Saturday" or "Jesus, woman the f*cking never ever stopped."

Do I have to mention that the white passengers never said such things? In fact, the most offensive white I ever met on the Muni was some chick who insisted on showing me her hairy armpit as she grabbed the strap. Another boy-wannabe, which SF was full of in those days.

And then, CRASH! I was heading home on the Muni when some black woman started up a squabble over a PENNY, and dropped her purse right in front of me, and before I knew what was happening, the gang did the following: (1) a huge black guy bumped me and snatched my wallet (2) the bus pulled over for a stop and opened its doors (3) the female gang members fled out the front door (4) the big black guy fled out the back door.

I thought of crying "Stop, thief!" but realized that (1) it was hopeless (2) I did not want to get into a fight with him.

During the time I was there, the City Administration decided to erase an entire Black Slum, and ship them all over to Oakland.

My Thai boyfriend was also terrorized on the Muni. But this time it was the Muni streetcars running out to SF State. He was having a nice chat with his friend from Taiwan when the Negroes came in, and demanded money. They didn't HAVE much money, so the Negroes took their umbrellas, after beating them.

The next year, my Thai boyfriend was robbed by White Boys one block from his home.

Now I understand the current fashion (or is it already gone?) of chains, particularly those chains which chain your wallet to your belt.

By the way, after I had been robbed on the Muni, the other passengers were very wise and comforting: "It happens all the time. Don't carry anything you care about on the Muni."

Some years later, I was posted to Atlanta, and was astonished to notice the difference between the SF Blacks and the Atlanta Blacks. Briefly put, the attitude of the SF Blacks was "F*CK YOU," while the attitude of the Atlanta blacks was: "We're all American and we're in this together." I particularly liked and noticed the four black cops, armed to the nines, having breakfast at the House of Pancakes. Such a thing seems unimaginable in the "Gay Mecca."

Oh, one other detail, not so minor. Atlanta had a functioning boy-bar. Outside the city limits, it offered naked boys dancing, plus the additional fun of a naked boy doing a "table dance" for you -- plus the wonderful pleasures to be had in a "VIP Room."

San Francisco offers NONE of this, and yet terms itself the "Gay Mecca."

Over to you.

I really think that SF is the best city for food in America, and I would boil it all down to one item:

BREAD.

God I miss San Francisco bread. My favorite was Acme.

Coffee? God I miss Graffeo.

Restaurants? Too many to count, my I would probably go with my boyfriend at that time: Greens.

http://www.greensrestaurant.com/

This place was so good that you didn't even realize that you were eating vegetarian!

Not to mention: Chapeau!

http://www.yelp.com/biz/chapeau-san-francisco

Just a nut, but a tasty and well-roasted one!

[Bob]

All blacks in San Francisco hate Henry and/or are bad people?
All blacks in Atlanta are good people and/or are nice people?

I'm not sure of what message you're trying to make here, Henry, and/or why you'd feel the need to post it.
It looks like I'm going to have to pat you down for yaba pills.

All blacks in San Francisco hate Henry and/or are bad people?
All blacks in Atlanta are good people and/or are nice people?

I'm not sure of what message you're trying to make here, Henry, and/or why you'd feel the need to post it.
It looks like I'm going to have to pat you down for yaba pills.

It's not the black people, it's the culture. Before you jump in and get your feet all wet with dogmatism...do you know what I am talking about?

Have you lived in SF, and then in Atlanta?

[Bob]

No dogmatism there, Henry, just a slight slap for over-generalizing. I've lived near and with black populations in the past (but only in my state of Michigan) and I find most of them are okay but some of them aren't (hmmm.....just like the white people I've been around).

[Wesley]

Well I have never been to SF but I hear Portland is just as bad, I went to a bar there that took up a full city block and had 5 bars of all kinds in it. It was impossible to find someone in one of those bars to go home with you old or not, of course I Was like 45 then but the boys were 18 to 20. I had a great time there. I suppose any cote is what you make it. The best place on the west coast I have seen was Portland the best and most expensive I have seen is New York City, but anything goes there,. You can find older guys for younger guys and younger guys for older men. If you know where to go you can fins what you want.

he cheapest place on the east cost to find a young man was in Norfolk Virginia, those Navy guys wee loving to get it up the booty, I was well able to oblige. they like a good whip on their ass too. the If you can't fund a younger man for older in a place called the Garage in Downtown Norfolk you can't find a man. Of course you have to go to the after bar with them and dance to 4 AM then go to the hotel but its a lot of fun for me.

... I am NOT a "poster child" for the dot.com people who blew into town in the 90's. I was a resident of the Valley for decades before that. ...

Yes Henry, you are. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Silicon Valley is not San Francisco. And neither is Marin, Oakland, Daly City or even South San Francisco. Yes they are all in the Bay Area but go over the bridges or south of the hills and you're in a whole different world.
SF was never a center of computer manufacturing like Silicon Valley. And yes, we all knew perfectly well what was going on down south. But all of a sudden around '94 or so there started to be stories about kids just out of college - or even still in college - making $10K-$20K a month making web pages for this new fangled internet thing. And then the new Gold Rush started. Web companies sprang up like mushrooms and thousands of tech people showed up. And like you a lot were from Silicon Valley and politically conservative.
And when they found they couldn't fit into or change the culture they became bitter and took off as soon as the bubble burst.

BTW, I do take Muni daily to and from work as well as on weekends and have been for 5 years now.
All I can say to your story is sorry you got mugged.
I really don't think all black people in SF hate you though, even though you seem to hate them.
And as far as your comment about "City Administration decided to erase an entire Black Slum, and ship them all over to Oakland", I don't have a clue what your talking about.

As for your stupid and nasty comments about the AIDS epidemic I'm not going to even bother to get in a discussion with you. I suggest you turn off Fox News and Bill O'reilly and educate yourself on the subject before you embarass yourself anymore.

[Wesley]

Bill reay does hate SF Values but its not a gay issue its the far left mayor he hates. I think SF is fine. I think its probably a bit too much for me, I think what they did at the Eucharist in the Catholic chuch was over the yop for anyone gay or staright.

But all in all it has a wonderful history and beatiful and as liberal as it gets in the Good ol USA perhaps only Potland Oregon as far as actual laws are more liberal.

But, the left needs to be as tolerant of the right as they expect the right to be of them, the first amendment applies to all. the Rght to either believe in god or think the possiblity is stupid, is fair to all. I think SF scares anyone who does not agree with them away, rather than fight the status quo.

Wesleyu

As for your stupid and nasty comments about the AIDS epidemic I'm not going to even bother to get in a discussion with you. I suggest you turn off Fox News and Bill O'reilly and educate yourself on the subject before you embarass yourself anymore.

Well, you've certainly shut off any discussion -- nipped it in the bud, I would say. But you can't STOP there: you have to go on and tell me to turn off FOX News and Bill O'Reilly and educate myself on the subject -- before I embarrass myself any more.

Well, I don't watch TV, and I don't know who this O'Reilly dude is, except for brief glimpses on the Net, where the consensus opinion of him is -- that he rates himself a lot higher than his viewers do.

Getting an education about HIV turns out to be a fanastically difficult thing to do! Especially because of all the disinformation put out by Democratic Gays, and their well-known resistance to facts. I was at a meeting of the AAPP, a conservative group you may never heard of, which had a lot more to do with getting anti-gay laws overturned than you probably know. We had a rushed, surprise speaker that day, a doctor who barely had time to remove his stethoscope before giving us a VERY brief, VERY preliminary report that seemed to indicate that HIV was trasmitted via anal intercourse.

There was one astonishing reaction from the audience. A firebrand sociologist stood up and began screaming at the doctor that his report was complete BS and only served to reinforce social stereotypes about anal sex, and basically tore the doctor a new asshole for being anti-gay. The doctor sort of looked at this lunatic in bewilderment, as did I. For one thing, it's very odd for an "anti-gay" doctor to tear 30 minutes out of his schedule and come to give a group of gay men advice on how not to get infected.

A year or two later, our firebrand was HIV-positive. Was that the fault of his lack of education? I decided to give up everything anal until we got better information. Thirty years later: completely virus-free -- as are my boyfriends!!!

Another example of the difficulty of getting real information about HIV comes from my doctor brother, who, years ago, expressed enormous anger over the way the CDC presented its HIV data. "Henry!" he said to me, "It's basically ALL anal intercourse, whether we're looking at gay people or straight people. But the CDC can't make that obvious because it might piss people off!"

By now, I think that I know that there are two royal roads to HIV infection: anal intercourse and needle-jabs. Period. Can you tell me one straightforward published account which admits and publicizes these truths?

Can you name one leader of the "gay comunity" which acted as though the "gay community" needed to take responsibility for its own health? You could try it, although I don't think you will: at your next meeting, suggest that gay men take a 5-year vacation from anal intercourse.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??? It was much more fun to demonstrate against Reagan (as though retrovirus cures were to be obtained at the snap of one's fingers.) It was much more fun to demonstrate AGAINST the closure of those Typhoid Annies, the bathhouses. When the Japanese understood what was happening, and banned farang tourists from some gay spots, it was labelled RACISM.

However, kenc, if you are suggesting that I go off and get my education from the gay-rights activists in Washington -- thanks, but no thanks. I remember them best for that scare campaign saying that HIV was going to make massive inroads among straights, a Chicken-Little affair if there ever was one.

Ideas have consequences, and, sometimes much more than ideas, scientific knowledge has consequences.

I have to end this posting with a little personal vignette. My friend Terry had just ridden his bike from L.A. to northern California, and on the return lap in 1980, he made a stop to attend the gay bathhouses in SF. Although he was obviously 21, he was denied entrance because he didn't have a driver's license, and he was plenty pissed off. Today, he kneels down and blesses whatever powers there may be for keeping him out of The Most Dangerous Place in the World in 1980!

Henry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. You spent five miserable years here and you are trying to blame everyone else.

Do you think you would have fared better in any other American city?

The issue is that you claim you and your partner are viewed different, but have you tried joining other groups? San Francisco is not a perfect gay utopia but you would certainly find a group to belong. Pacific Friends comes to mind. But then maybe you are afraid that those older white gay guys would be after your young Thai bf.

I am glad that you are happy in CM. But let me ask you why? Is it because of CM or because of you?

Pacific Friends? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA, I did my best for 3-4 months. The straw that broke the camel's back was spending hours preparing and cooking some shishkebabs. Not one person said, "Thanks." Not one person said "Yum, good." A number did whine, however, over things which were not quite up to their standard. (Frankly, I can't imagine such a thing happening in Thailand.)

Saying anything more would be indiscreet. But I did, in fact, have more fun in Atlanta. That is, the "FunMeter" soared from 3, to 6 (on a scale of 100)

San Francisco may not be a perfect gay utopia, but IT LIKES TO THINK THAT IT IS.

Why am I happy in CM? Is it because of CM or because of me? How about the right glove fitting the right hand, or my discovery that many boys in Thailand need what I have, while I most certainly need what they have? Since we have a strong tendency to like people whom we need, that puts the "FunMeter" at 95 or so.

I don't know whether you read about my birthday party at Free Guy. That would have been at the end of July. You may think it was silly, or fun, or whatever, but it would have been very difficult to arrange in The Gay Mecca,

... I am NOT a "poster child" for the dot.com people who blew into town in the 90's. I was a resident of the Valley for decades before that. ...

Yes Henry, you are. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Silicon Valley is not San Francisco. And neither is Marin, Oakland, Daly City or even South San Francisco. Yes they are all in the Bay Area but go over the bridges or south of the hills and you're in a whole different world.
SF was never a center of computer manufacturing like Silicon Valley. And yes, we all knew perfectly well what was going on down south. But all of a sudden around '94 or so there started to be stories about kids just out of college - or even still in college - making $10K-$20K a month making web pages for this new fangled internet thing. And then the new Gold Rush started. Web companies sprang up like mushrooms and thousands of tech people showed up. And like you a lot were from Silicon Valley and politically conservative.
And when they found they couldn't fit into or change the culture they became bitter and took off as soon as the bubble burst.

BTW, I do take Muni daily to and from work as well as on weekends and have been for 5 years now.
All I can say to your story is sorry you got mugged.
I really don't think all black people in SF hate you though, even though you seem to hate them.
And as far as your comment about "City Administration decided to erase an entire Black Slum, and ship them all over to Oakland", I don't have a clue what your talking about.

As for your stupid and nasty comments about the AIDS epidemic I'm not going to even bother to get in a discussion with you. I suggest you turn off Fox News and Bill O'reilly and educate yourself on the subject before you embarass yourself anymore.

Well, of course, everyone who lives in the City is a Sophisticate, and anyone else lives in THE BURBS is an Untoucahable. Lovely SF Liberalism.

This does a heck of a lot to promote social dialogue. You might have made it a bit clearer "Let those in THE BURBS EAT CAKE."

PS what happened to the "old" Thai BF that is now back in Thailand?

Well, we live within a few blocks of one another. He is now over 30, and has been worried sick about that from time to time. We've known each other for a long time, and I really like him.

Actually telling what happened to him might reveal his identity. But he did graduate from a Thai university -- and here is a REAL CLUE -- did a wonderful job as the star of a production of Cabaret in Bangkok. It was good enough to get him a job on TV, where he spent three years...and I don't want to say more about that (same concern for privacy).

After that, he came back home to Chiang Mai, and is now teaching at one of the very best schools in the city. He went through some difficulties, adjusting to life here after years as a Bangkok guy, but is now doing well, being the first teacher in his subject ever seen in Chiang Mai.

I'm proud to call him my friend.

I really don't think all black people in SF hate you though, even though you seem to hate them.

And as far as your comment about "City Administration decided to erase an entire Black Slum, and ship them all over to Oakland", I don't have a clue what your talking about.

Well, I don't really hate black people. But unless you are wearing multi-culti rose-tinted glasses, it is obvious that blacks (and whites) are a lot more dangerous than Chinese people and Jews. This is of course a generalization, but you can't really talk about groups without generalizations. Unfortunately, these days, when you say something as obvious as "women and men have different reproductive systems," someone will always pop up to say that you're "stereotyping," and haven't you ever heard of transgender, and bla bla bla.

So, it is more accurate to say that, far from "hating" black people, I am wary of them "as a group." Hell, so is Jesse Jackson! This sometimes produces comic results: once, on the Muni, I saw a couple of blacks dressed to the nines in gangsta style, and looking as menacing as hell. But when I tuned into their conversation, they were saying, "But, of course, you NEVER do that with a spinach souffle, as EVERYONE knows. And serving it with red wine is like Beyond Bad Taste."

They also say "a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged!" My former boyfriend is another example. Like virtually every foreign newcomer to the U.S., he was CONVINCED that white America was totally racist, and dedicated to keeping the black man down. Much later, while not exactly admitting that real life in America had changed his preconceptions, he did allow that American blacks were "pretty dangerous."

And, again, I was really struck by the contrast between the black culture in SF (and other large northern cities, I guess) with what I found in Atlanta: basically nice, friendly, people who were fun to be around. So I guess my real complaint is about those opportunists who have lost no opportunity to feed the flames of resentment and Identity Politics.

Enough of that.
--------------------------------
Now, about that slum. Where was it?

Hmm, I lived on Oak Street, and used to walk up to Haight to grab the Muni bus to Civic Center and BART. That bus rolled on down to Market Street, but before it reached Market it passed a solid block of public housing, which was demolished around 1993. I only have the word of a local friend that the inhabitants most likely went to Oakland. I used the wrong word when I said they were "shipped" to Oakland, but going there was pretty much the only alternative open to them if they wanted to stay in the Bay Area. So it's sort of like your boss calling you in to tell you that you can get fired or relocate to Podunk. You might wind up telling your friends that you were "shipped to Podunk," when all along it was just a question of untrammeled free will! :-0
------------------
If I ever return to this topic (doubtful) I would like to write something about all the people who move to SF just because they want to be there, and who have no idea how much it costs to live there. I have, particularly in mind, a whole flock of young gay Bruces who pack their suitcases and move, only to discover that a job clerking at Macy's (a) doesn't pay the rent, and (b) considerably cuts in on the number of parties they can go to.
-----------------------
And I forgot to mention that, after all, SF is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, and there are many, many days when it is a pleasure simply to wake up and smell the morning air. And...I have noticed that thing mentioned by kenc, the "leftist" can-do attitude, in many places, most memorably in Golden Gate Park, one of the best spots on the planet.

Actually, I'd much rather go back to SF than LA. But neither event is imminent!

[Bob]

So, it is more accurate to say that, far from "hating" black people, I am wary of them "as a group."

When I was an simple-minded eleven-year-old (yea, yea, Homi, some things don't ever change...), I had the good fortune of latching onto a newspaper route. My route happened to consist of the worst black "ghetto" area of a large Michigan city although about 10% of my customers were whites on the fringes of that area. I knew nothing much about black americans other than the 2 or 3 that attended my lily white grade school and, although my parents raised us to be color-blind, it rapidly became obvious to me that they had substantial fear for what I was about to encounter. You could see the dread in their eyes when I announced I was going over to collect on a Friday or Saturday evening. But I was oblivious to all and everything, afterall, it was my first big job and I was about to get rich delivering newspapers! Hell, I didn't care who was paying me!

Best education I ever had. Almost all of the blacks treated me very well and the only trouble I had (from having people not pay me, threaten me, having some ugly old dude or duddette coming to the door in skivvies or naked, etc.) was from a significant percentage of the fringe white customers I had. While I never got rich (the two or three dollars I earned each week was spent buying candy and ice cream at the store in the middle of my paper route), I at least lost my initial wonder (sometimes fear, I suppose) of those different-looking folks. Many invited me into their homes and treated me like I was family or something. None of them seemed to pay any attention to me because I was white and so I didn't seem to particularly care that they weren't.

Racism, at least in my eyes, is driven by ignorance. We fear what we don't know. And, Henry, the simple expression that you're wary of blacks as a group is a rather sad tale to me of what you don't know, didn't bother to learn, or didn't have the opportunity to learn. Just as sad when hearing "muslims" or "gays" or "lutherans" or whatever lumped as a group and painted with a similar brush of ignorance.

And, Henry, the simple expression that you're wary of blacks as a group is a rather sad tale to me of what you don't know, didn't bother to learn, or didn't have the opportunity to learn. Just as sad when hearing "muslims" or "gays" or "lutherans" or whatever lumped as a group and painted with a similar brush of ignorance.And Henry has the temerity to describe others as "racist"

Poor Henry.
He came to the Emerald City but he didnтАЩt like it.

The trouble started as soon as he got out of the carriage and stepped in Horseshit-of-a-Different-Color.

And if that wasnтАЩt bad enough he bumped into the Wicked Witch of the West and she put a hex on him and gave him pimples and halitosis.

A Munchkin kicked him in the shin (he never really liked Munchkins since he knows theyтАЩve all been taught from birth to hate tall people and thus hate him, but at least the ones in Munchkin Land are better behaved around tall people than the ones in the Emerald City).

And to top off the indignities a Flying Monkey flew over and crapped on his head.

He came here to get his pair of Ruby Slippers but after 5 years he never got them. He didnтАЩt even get to try on a pair.
Now he sits in his cabin in the woods and tries to tell everyone following the Yellow-Brick Road that the Emerald City is overrated and what a bad time theyтАЩll have there like he did.

We in the Merry Old Land of Oz are sorry Henry had such a bad time when he was here, but we really donтАЩt think itтАЩs anywhere near as bleak as he paints. Sure itтАЩs not perfect.
ThereтАЩs an ongoing battle between the Municipality and the Carriage Drivers Union over who is responsible for cleaning up after the Horse-of-a-Different-Color and weтАЩve all had to learn to watch where we walk. It is annoying but at least the HorseтАЩs on time record is getting better.
And nobody likes the Flying Monkeys. The new Wizard is really trying to do something about the problem in a humane way. HeтАЩs managed to tame some of them and there are a lot fewer around nowadays than a few years ago.
The Munchkins really arenтАЩt all that bad when you get to know them and can actually be quite fun to party with if you give them a chance.
And the Wicked WitchтАж.well sheтАЩs still a problem but maybe someday someone will throw a bucket of water on her or a house will fall on her. At least we have Glinda the Good Witch and her many minions to help undo the evil hexes.

And thereтАЩs still a steady stream of hopefuls following the Yellow-Brick Road and coming here to find their pair of Ruby Slippers.

And, Henry, the simple expression that you're wary of blacks as a group is a rather sad tale to me of what you don't know, didn't bother to learn, or didn't have the opportunity to learn. Just as sad when hearing "muslims" or "gays" or "lutherans" or whatever lumped as a group and painted with a similar brush of ignorance.

Jeepers, Bob, how condescending can you get? As I mentioned, Jesse Jackson is also "wary" of blacks. But, as seems to be typical of sheep following their leaders without a question, ANY disagreement is automatically set down to "ignorance."

Well, here's some "ignorance" for you:


The figures reveal the continuing, extraordinary magnitude of minority incarceration and the stark disparity in their rates of incarceration compared to those of whites. Out of a total population of 1,976,019 incarcerated in adult facilities, 1,239,946 or 63 percent are black or Latino, though these two groups constitute only 25 percent of the national population. The figures also demonstrate significant differences among the states in the extent of racial disparities.

From the website: http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/

You may want to note the redefinition of "minorities" to mean blacks and Hispanics ONLY. Successful minorities, such as the Asians in general, somehow are not counted as "minorities." Do you have any idea why, Bob? Or should we all go back and re-read Orwell's classic essay, Politics and the English Language?

Or some more "ignorance:"


At midyear 2007 there were 4,618 black male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,747 Hispanic male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 Hispanic males and 773 white male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 white males.

From the website: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

You don't even WANT to know the crime rates among black males aged 18-25.

So much for the frigging "brush of ignorance," Bob. That brush is in YOUR hands, not mine.

Poor Henry.
He came to the Emerald City but he didnтАЩt like it.

The trouble started as soon as he got out of the carriage and stepped in Horseshit-of-a-Different-Color.

And if that wasnтАЩt bad enough he bumped into the Wicked Witch of the West and she put a hex on him and gave him pimples and halitosis.

A Munchkin kicked him in the shin (he never really liked Munchkins since he knows theyтАЩve all been taught from birth to hate tall people and thus hate him, but at least the ones in Munchkin Land are better behaved around tall people than the ones in the Emerald City).

And to top off the indignities a Flying Monkey flew over and crapped on his head.

He came here to get his pair of Ruby Slippers but after 5 years he never got them. He didnтАЩt even get to try on a pair.
Now he sits in his cabin in the woods and tries to tell everyone following the Yellow-Brick Road that the Emerald City is overrated and what a bad time theyтАЩll have there like he did.

We in the Merry Old Land of Oz are sorry Henry had such a bad time when he was here, but we really donтАЩt think itтАЩs anywhere near as bleak as he paints. Sure itтАЩs not perfect.
ThereтАЩs an ongoing battle between the Municipality and the Carriage Drivers Union over who is responsible for cleaning up after the Horse-of-a-Different-Color and weтАЩve all had to learn to watch where we walk. It is annoying but at least the HorseтАЩs on time record is getting better.
And nobody likes the Flying Monkeys. The new Wizard is really trying to do something about the problem in a humane way. HeтАЩs managed to tame some of them and there are a lot fewer around nowadays than a few years ago.
The Munchkins really arenтАЩt all that bad when you get to know them and can actually be quite fun to party with if you give them a chance.
And the Wicked WitchтАж.well sheтАЩs still a problem but maybe someday someone will throw a bucket of water on her or a house will fall on her. At least we have Glinda the Good Witch and her many minions to help undo the evil hexes.

And thereтАЩs still a steady stream of hopefuls following the Yellow-Brick Road and coming here to find their pair of Ruby Slippers.

Have you ever considered a career as a writer of children's books?

[Bob]

You personally labelled the group, Henry, I didn't.

You know the old axiom about figures and statistics, don't you? You're suggesting that, because a higher percentage of blacks are incarcerated than whites or asians, that we should be wary of blacks as a group? You might want to figure out what percentage of the entire black population is incarcerated and then just be wary of that percentage (fyi, it's less than 2% which, I guess according to your current theory, means nobody needs to be wary of 98% of the black population?). Or, alternatively, you might want to ask why is it that there is a higher percentage of blacks in jail rather than whites. Think that has something to do with the racism of the past that has left blacks at the bottom end of the economic totem pole, or something to do with the fact that the worst schools (including worst teachers according to many) are where blacks live, or, as is argued by many, that the laws are unnecessarily tilted against the blacks because, for example, crack cocaine receives much harsher (and more mandatory) penalties than "whiter" recreational drugs? By making these comments, I'm not excusing blacks from their bad or criminal behavior but I am suggesting that the issue is a bit deeper than just the color of one's skin.

I'm also wary of criminals (regardless of color), gangbangers (regardless of color), drug pushers (regardless of color), and I've got no bone to pick with you of being wary of people because of behavior.

I'm also wary of criminals But Bob, some of my best friends are criminals. They're contemporaries of mine who got locked up for consensual sex with another man, in the days when it was illegal. Surely you must know similar people in the good ol' US of A?

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

I wonder how many people really know or understand San Francisco.

I am a California boy myself, but spent my life in La Jolla and Santa Barbara (and a bit in L.A.) I only moved to SF when I was compelled to do so by my former BF's need for an American education. I was coming from a life in Chiang Mai and had nothing. Fortunately, my old friend from Iran was now a landlord and had a studio available for me. I bought a bed and went to work...in Oakland.

This means that I got up in the morning, took a Muni bus from the Haight down to Civic Center, and then took BART to Oakland. The reverse in the evening, of course. I was working for a software startup called Forte Software, Inc.. Virtually nobody in SF understood the meaning of this.

I was already well aware of SF's self-promotion as a "gay Mecca." On weekends, I would take the bus (or later, my little old Toyota) over to the Castro and visit there. I found a lot of "professional homosexuals" living there, including the guys wearing leather pants with the bare ass showing.

It may have been a "gay Mecca," but I found neither sex nor friends there. On the contrary, I soon settled into a ghastly solitude of work-sleep-work. I spent more time with my Thai bf (on the phone) than I did with any gay American living in "the gay Mecca." Including my bearded friend from Iran.

Well, by then I was 46 years old. I guess the gay folks were right to count me out. Even in "the gay Mecca."

And then! My boyfriend arrived, a lovely young man from Thailand who had just finished high school and was ready to embark on his college education! He was not quite 21, and therefore couldn't get into the gay bars in "the gay Mecca." But he did manage to meet some gay people, at milk bars, etc., and I was surprised to discover first-hand evidence of American racism!

The first example was the worst. Some dude, 30yo, who used my former BF to help him move (in South San Francisco) and then dumped him, the very next day!

I mean, can you imagine? A really cute guy, running around SF, and being treated as a mere "Asian??"

Sometime after that, the former BF looked at me seriously, and said, "Henry, do you think of me as 'your Asian lover?' " I replied, "No, never, I only think of you as [name deleted]." Which was the simple truth.

As the three years wore on, [name deleted] grew sick and tired of the SF gay scene. Beyond that, as an acting major, he simply couldn't get roles in student productions (he had an accent, and did not look like Johnny Walton). So he decided to finish his college education in Thailand. It was a good decision (for him).

But San Francisco? The one memory which stands indelible for me is the GLARES we got in the Castro when we walked along together. ("Read my lips, this boy is way too YOUNG for you!") And then he had a very good idea...we would walk "together," but with him six paces or so in front, so we would not appear as a "couple."

And then the cruising started! Talk about middle-class American hypocrisy at its finest! "This boy is way too young for YOU, but he looks just about right for ME!"

And for final hilarity, there was the lesbian who cruised him. She thought she was looking at a tom-boy, and circled in on him. At the last moment, something must have tipped her off ("This is a male!") and she retreated in horror.

Politically, SF is one of most idiotic cities in the world.

Now it's your turn!

I've only been to San Francisco once..when I was young and was on my Greyhound bus tour of the US. (it was so long ago I think Janis Joplin was still alive)

I met a lovely young lad in a gay bar..mind you I had never seen someone lying in a trough before and being pissed on by other men..but what the heck..whatever turns you on. It was such a crowded bar that by the time we got outside I realised he only had one leg .

He said.."now you won't want to go with me" but I did and he was great sex. Maybe he put in an extra effort..(I thought perhaps that's why Paul McCartney was attracted to Heather Mills- although I didn't notice if his stump was an erogenous zone as Heather's is)

But I digress... I was driven to SF from LA by a horrible big diesel dyke in an old Kombi Van and she drove so fast around Big Sur I asked her to slow down and she called me a "male chauvinist pig !". Then the van broke down right in the middle of the Golden Gate bridge at 2m and a police car kindly pushed us the rest of the way..when they left she said they were " a pair of male chauvinist motherfucker pigs".

I was expected to sleep in the back of this van so thank God I found someone for the night..getting ready to go out the only place I could wash was some old swimming pool that was below the Golden Gate bridge but walking through there I was confronted by a big snake and ran out screaming !

life is so much fun when you are 19.

I met a lovely young lad in a gay bar..mind you I had never seen someone lying in a trough before and being pissed on by other men..but what the heck..whatever turns you on. It was such a crowded bar that by the time we got outside I realised he only had one leg .

Are you sure that wasn't NYC? Getting specific, here :-) -- in 1976 I rented a house by the seaside in Tunisia for a month, and invited friends from NYC to come and stay for free. (The house rental, back then, was $1,000 per month during the summer. Ah! Ou sont les neiges...)

Anyway, the NYC city friends showed up, all absolutely limited to three weeks of time off, and proceeded to behave as many people do -- that is to say, unpredictable and interesting. Two guys took off in a rental car to do a "tour" of the southern oases; on their return, I gathered that the tour involved getting pronged.

But they were all babbling about this shocking new NYC bar called (charmingly) The Toilet, where scenes such as you described occurred every night. I believe the fad has passed now.

But I remember sitting in my nice house in Tunisia with some nice guys for company, and thinking to myself, "This is utterly weird."

But I guess I'm just a right-wing wacko! :-)

...Have you ever considered a career as a writer of children's books?

Yes.
Ever since I started posting on Sawatdee I got real good at it. :cheers:

...Have you ever considered a career as a writer of children's books?

Yes.
Ever since I started posting on Sawatdee I got real good at it. :cheers:

:cheers: :cheers:

You go for it. There's gold in them thar hills! :flower:

Soon after I arrived in San Francisco (in 1994) I became acutely aware of the fact that blacks hated me.



I've got news for you, Henry: white folks aren't wild about you, either.

[quote="Henry Cate":3oyv7rhu]Soon after I arrived in San Francisco (in 1994) I became acutely aware of the fact that blacks hated me.



I've got news for you, Henry: white folks aren't wild about you, either.[/quote:3oyv7rhu]

But they are wild about you, Chao Na. (This news flash is interrupted by putting you back on Ignore, where you belong.)

[lonelywombat]

for those who can remember or would like to this movie should right up your alley. Free links and download

REVIEW
Gay male love stories often lure an audience with the promise of nudity, a titilation that they rarely deliver. That can't be said about this odd-couple-in- lust drama as it boldly fixates its gaze on the bodies of both the leads: a blond teen and an older man-stud. Why bring up the nudity first? Because that is the best thing going in this drama. Valley boy and aspiring writer/poet 18-year-old Kyle (Sean Tataryn of The Boys of St. Vincent), bored with his West Hollywood fag friends, finds his life dramatically changed after he meets 30-year-old Mike (Christopher Bradley), a pec-and-leather working-class carpenter. Yet despite their differences, the two fall for each other.
That's the story, but the more interesting aspect of the film (other than the flesh) is the '90s L.A. scene it captures. For within this bubbled gay universe lies nothing but gay bars, restaurants, gyms and pool side mansions populated by beautiful twinkies, mustached muscle men, denim daddies and leathered motorcycle queens. Forget the story, buy it for its travelogue values!
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The website for the British paper The Independent has put San Francisco at the top of its list of "The 10 Best Places in the World to be Gay in."
the runners up:

Sydney
New York (Noo Yawk)
Mykonos (Greece)
Paris
Barcelona
Amsterdam
London
Copenhagen
Berlin

See: 10 Best Places in the World to be Gay in (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/taboo-tolerance/the-ten-best-places-in-the-world-to-be-gay-in-932557.html)

(Edit- note: I know many posters will know Mykonos is in Greece but I thought I might need to add the referene for those few who might think its also in the Balkans. I almost felt the need to also point out that its in the Agean Sea and not the Black Sea but I thought that might be pedantic. )

(Edit 2- oops, the paper is the Independent, not the Nation. Corrected above as per Homitern's post)

The website for the British paper The Nation ...I thought that was a paper I didn't know. As it turns out, the link is for The Independent!