PDA - Does it Stand for democracy

PDA's actions what reprted recently in the media makes me wonder a so-called movement calling itself "Democratic" could resort to un-democratic means to topple a democratically elected government?. Resorting to blockades, strikes, taking-over government buildings and International Airports in violent ways does not truely reflect the banner it carry. Are the 61 million peace-loving Thai people are taken for granted that the few thousands of people carrying out these un-democratic acts will remain silent to the sufferings of the ordinary people are ignored for the benefit of the few who are power hungry and are not able to gain the status-quo through democratic political means. What is the international community and the diplomatic core are doing about the situation.

Thailand and it's democratic survival is important to the region given the threat of the new cold-war. Can the farang community living in Thailand contribute intellectually and effectively to combat the meance of PDA?

PAD - pissed and dangerous.

farangs can do nothing but duck..

PDA's actions what reprted recently in the media makes me wonder a so-called movement calling itself "Democratic" could resort to un-democratic means to topple a democratically elected government?Worldwide the sort of people who use the word "democratic" to describe themselves are usually the least democratic. Generally they justify their approach by arguing for their form of democracy as a variation within some sort of umbrella meaning - which ends up being no meaning at all. Think of the various Democratic Republics, which were/are anything but. The PAD believes in a "democracy" of the elite - Chamlong has said quite openly that the mass of the Thai people cannot be trusted to vote appropriately. If you've read That Book, you'll know that A Certain Person believes the same. One of the hallmarks of a democracy is the submission of the armed forces and the police to the elected government of the day. That the Thai armed forces are openly "standing aside" gives you the measure of Thai "democracy". Another hallmark is adherence to the rule of law. A Certain Person has always seen himself above the law, and what an example he has set! The likelihood that outsiders (such as Westerners) in Thailand can influence events given that background is highly unlikely (or, as Soi10Tom might say, it will never happen)

[ikarus]

Here is an interesting article of Andrew Drummond. From what I gather not only PAD shut down major Southern airports but it also tries to prevent foreign tourists from leaving Phuket and other tourist destinations in the South by other means of transportation. In other words, they try to use tourists (including kids) as a kind of hostages...
What can be more outrageous than that...




Thousands of UK tourists trapped by Thai protestsAirports are closed as anti-corruption demonstrators demand that the Prime Minister quitsAndrew Drummond in Bangkok The Observer, Sunday August 31 2008
Article history

Thai protesters at Phuket airport. Photograph: Yongyod Prueksarak/EPA

Thousands of Britons were trapped in Thailand last night as mobs protesting against the country's 'corrupt' government laid siege to airports in tourist hot spots. Some 15,000 people were turned away from the airport on the holiday island of Phuket after protesters from the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) stormed the runway and terminals.

Stranded passengers had to carry their bags through cordons to a nearby road where they were forced to hail cabs to take them back to their resorts. The chaos has sparked concerns that thousands of children will now miss the start of the British school term.

The airports at Krabi, now rivalling Phuket as Thailand's No 1 tourist spot, was also closed, as was the airport at Haad Yai in the south. Last night demonstrators were also heading for Surat Thani airport, around three hours north of Phuket. 'We want to bring government corruption to the attention of the world,' said a PAD spokesman.

Having spent their holiday cash, many tourists were wondering how they would get home and find accommodation in the interim. The Tourist Authority of Thailand has asked hoteliers to give stranded tourists discounted or free accommodation, but almost all those from Britain have lost connections on to London which they booked months in advance. Last night many tried to make their connections by bus, minibus and taxi in a 13- hour road trip to Bangkok, but PAD said they were also setting up road blocks on major roads into the capital.

They insisted however that they were not targeting tourists and the protests have remained largely peaceful, though further chaos is predicted. Thailand's railway system is already 70 per cent out of action due to action by unions in support of the PAD demonstrations. Unions at the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand, have threatened action against the national grid and the Thai Airlines union is threatening to join the protests.

The PAD began their massive demonstrations four days ago demanding the resignation of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej and his cabinet. The group argues that corrupt politicians have been able to buy themselves into power.

PAD leaders claim that Samak and his cabinet intend to plunder the country, a charge which they brought against the former Premier Thaksin Shinawatra, now owner of Manchester City FC. The protesters are angry that Thaksin and his wife Pojaman were allowed to flee Thailand after she was jailed and he was charged with corruption.

As the government battles to restore its authority, arrest warrants for treason have been issued against the PAD leaders, who include media magnate Sondhi Limthongkul, former Bangkok governor Chamlong Srimuang, Pibhop Dhongchai, an academic, and labour leader Somsak Kosaisuk. However, police have so far been unable to serve the warrants.

After meeting King Bhumipol Adulyadej at his summer palace in Hua Hin, Samak insisted he would not back down. Bhumibol's support is crucial. Although he is a constitutional monarch with no formal political role, he has repeatedly brought calm in times of turbulence during his 60 years on the throne.

'I, the Prime Minister, have come to office in the righteous way and I won't resign,' Samak said. 'I will not back down. I will rule this country and will lead it through all of the problems.'

He also defended himself against critics who say he should not have let protesters overrun Government House in Bangkok: 'I have been very patient and have refrained from using force.'

But Samak's position looks fragile. Army commander General Anupong Paochinda has rejected his request to declare a state of emergency, and the Chart Thai Party, a member of Samak's six-party coalition, said it was ready to suggest the Prime Minister step down.

Last night thousands of protesters remained camped out at Government House, where leaders called for a million people to join their ranks and demand an end to Samak's seven-month tenure. 'The protest has already developed into a people's revolution,' said protest leader Sondhi Limthongkul. 'I do believe that Samak is going to resign.'

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Andrew Drummond is well-known as one of the leading bottom-of-the-barrel tabloid journalists in this part of the world...if you didn't recall that.

... let me guess. Chao Na is brown-nosing the PAD now

... let me guess. Chao Na is brown-nosing the PAD now

Wrong, dear. I only brown-nose those in authority, you should know that.

For the first time I agree with Homintern and Chao Na!

The leaders of the PAD have stated that they want a government that is only 30% elected and 70% nominated - some democracy!

I have little time for Samak, but I hope that he lasts it out and stays in the office he was legally elected to, otherwise mob rule and anarchy have won and any form of democracy in Thailand will be gone.

otherwise mob rule and anarchy have won and any form of democracy in Thailand will be gone.

Wot rubbish. Otherwise the people will have won you mean and democracy can again be attempted? What use is democracy if like in America you can't also democratically decide to throw your president onto the rubbish heap when he no longer serves the will of the people or represents them in any decent way. One down another to go. More and more people are pouring in to support the PAD.

Why is corruption to be tolerated in the name of some liberal nonsense about democratic elections? The present Thai government should be immediately dissolved.
Part of the problem in Thailand is the rural vote, it's uneducated and easily bought, frustrating the nations attempts at getting ahead and becoming a true democracy.

Watching the American presidential race unfolding its any wonder anyone wants democracy at all. May the richest man win. Lets pray its Obama at least.

What use is democracy if like in America you can't also democratically decide to throw your president onto the rubbish heap when he no longer serves the will of the people or represents them in any decent way.As an American myself I have to disagree with Cedric. We have a Constitution, we have a Bill of Rights, we have the separation of powers, we have guaranteed elections every four years. The Supreme Court is independent of the Executive Branch. Even the current Dubya-friendly Court had failed to support the Administration anywhere along the line over Guantamo Bay. If "the people" disagree with the way a President governs, they have the power through their elected representatives to impeach him. This happened with Nixon and Clinton. The Democrats democratically chose not to exercise this option. At the State level there are other options such as a "recall" as happened with Governor Davis in California, when Arnie became Governor. Election funding can be done at the micro level, as Obama has proved in his campaign's fund-raising.

Compare that with where I live in Singapore. Elections are "rigged" via muzzling the press. Between elections dissent is muzzled through the use of the libel laws. In political matters the Courts are entirely subservient to the Government. In the US we've recently had political dynasties - the Bush presidents, father and son. Thank god we set an example to the world and rejected the Clinton dynasty. In Singapore we've got the Lees everywhere and the Singaporeans will be lucky ever to get rid of them. I have an American passport and can leave any time. Cedric is just talking immature, ignorant nonsense.

[thrillbill]

Democracy or no democracy... once PAD gets in the "perfect" leader for Thailand, then how does one get rid of the corruption which is stagnating the economic growth of the country?

[sjaak327]

otherwise mob rule and anarchy have won and any form of democracy in Thailand will be gone.

Wot rubbish. Otherwise the people will have won you mean and democracy can again be attempted? What use is democracy if like in America you can't also democratically decide to throw your president onto the rubbish heap when he no longer serves the will of the people or represents them in any decent way. One down another to go. More and more people are pouring in to support the PAD.

Why is corruption to be tolerated in the name of some liberal nonsense about democratic elections? The present Thai government should be immediately dissolved.
Part of the problem in Thailand is the rural vote, it's uneducated and easily bought, frustrating the nations attempts at getting ahead and becoming a true democracy.

Watching the American presidential race unfolding its any wonder anyone wants democracy at all. May the richest man win. Lets pray its Obama at least.

Dear Cedric,

I suggest you do some reading up on what the PAD wants, and more importantly who their leaders are.

And please don't for one minute think that the rural poor are undeducated, they have every right to vote, and of course the PAD want to take away that right from them, for one reason only, it's a clear way for them to hold on to the power, they would have regained if they succeed in their current quest.

They are everything but democratic, and have zero mandate. The current government does have a mandate, and they should not move an inch for the PAD. If they do, Thailand as a country and democracy (however flaunted) will have lost.

If it is what PAD are for, then no, I don't think they are democratic. Even were it a benevolent dictatorship, it is not democracy.

They have stated, as noted above, that they think a large amount of parliament should be appointed; ostensibly because the masses are too ignorant. My understanding of 'the masses' is that while many are uneducated they are not necessarily ignorant.

Surely one could say of any 'democratic' society that many people vote knowing fuck all about the issues involved. In reality if they don't trust the people to elect an intelligent and capable Government then the King should run the country.

In reality if they don't trust the people to elect an intelligent and capable Government then the King should run the country.You think he's "intelligent and capable" then? The Palace propaganda machine certainly promotes that view. However, you haven't been reading the papers closely. The PM has to visit him in Hua Hin - he's in semi-retirement now. He's probably got a few months, possibly a couple of years, to live - and then what?

Are the 61 million peace-loving Thai people are taken for granted that the few thousands of people carrying out these un-democratic acts will remain silent to the sufferings of the ordinary people are ignored for the benefit of the few who are power hungry and are not able to gain the status-quo through democratic political means. What is the international community and the diplomatic core are doing about the situation.


Substitute the phrase "American people" for "Thai people" in the above, and if you then answer that question I will be happy to give you an answer regarding Thailand and the Thai people. Please limit yourself to the past 8 years of undemocratic acts and dictatorial rule in America since the USA has a long history of tyranny which you can read about yourself:

If you care to get an eyeful of American tyranny in the 20th century from one of its own heroes then do a Google search on the essay "War Is A Racket" by Smedley D. Butler, Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps and, at the time of his death, the most decorated Marine in U.S. history.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Andrew Drummond is well-known as one of the leading bottom-of-the-barrel tabloid journalists in this part of the world...if you didn't recall that.

he speaks the truth..a contributer to the appaling News of The World...and even more shocking..admits to it !

..loves to inform it's readers about ex-pat's exploits with young Thai women whilst carefully forgetting to mention he has taken a young Thai bride himself. :pukeleft:

"In 1934, Smedley D. Butler came forward and reported to the U.S. Congress that a group of wealthy pro-Fascist industrialists had been plotting to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a military coup. Even though the House Un-American Activities Committee corroborated most of the specifics of his testimony, no further action was taken."

A quote from this great American patriot:

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

[ikarus]

From economic viewpoint, the major problem in Thailand is poverty. Corruption is also mostly economic phenomenon. There is no way to eliminate corruption by appointing committees, involving courts or making coups. On the contrary, the history tells us that all these "measures" lead to witchhunt of political opponents . Politization of courts is even more dangerous. Thailand is not exception. If you look, e.g. how corruption was contained (not entirely eliminated which is impossible) in success stories in the region like Japan, Korea, Singapore or HK, the story is always the same: adequate compensation of government employeers and high level of economic development (the two , of course, linked). At some level of economic development corruption comes to a clear contradiction with possible further economic progress , it is no longer in the interest of a government,society and individual government employers.
One can, of course, argue that from economic standpoint Thailand is already quite advanced country and I agree with that. It is obviously much more advanced than Burma, Cambodia, Phillipines, Vietnam. One can argue that it is even more advanced in many aspects than Malaysia and Indonesia. What is the problem then? It may very well be that Thailand is very close from economic standpoint to the situation where corruption can be dealt with. However, further economic progress (including substantial improvement in living standards) is hampered by poverty. You cannot have society where middle class enjoys living standards, say, in Singapore level and rampant poverty of Isaan.
If you try to create such a society, the level of social tension will become intolerable and social explosion is inevitable. That is what is happening now in Thailand.
Thaksin was the only politician in recent Thailand history who tackled the issue of poverty and quite successfuly (as solid statistics shows) . I know that many people question his motives ( I happen to give the man a lot of credit for that) but from historical viewpoint the motives of certain political actions are not that important in comparison with results.
What is called elite is vehemently oppose these changes because they see empovering poors as the direct threat to their priviledges and frankly for many years used Thai poor as a source of cheap labor force, sex` workers etc. Some representative of middle class (quite selfishly) oppose it too, cause they want their piece of pie right now.
Ironically, the above mentioned discrepency between relatively high level of economic development and rampant poverty led to unprecedented level of sex tourism in Thailand.
From one point a sex tourist could enjoy comfort , safety and infrastructure of a developed society and from another could get a very inexpensive entertainment...
Thailand has a unique political system which made the paradox mentioned above possible. I cannot go into the discussion of it for obvious reasons ( but Homi is right on the money here). It seems, however, that at this stage the contradiction between existing polytical system and obvious economic needs came to the point where very drastic changes in Thai society become necessary. Unfortunately, it looks more and more plausible that this transion will not be pieceful.

From economic viewpoint, the major problem in Thailand is poverty. Corruption is also mostly economic phenomenon. There is no way to eliminate corruption by appointing committees, involving courts or making coups. On the contrary, the history tells us that all these "measures" lead to witchhunt of political opponents . Politization of courts is even more dangerous. Thailand is not exception. If you look, e.g. how corruption was contained (not entirely eliminated which is impossible) in success stories in the region like Japan, Korea, Singapore or HK, the story is always the same: adequate compensation of government employeers and high level of economic development (the two , of course, linked). At some level of economic development corruption comes to a clear contradiction with possible further economic progress , it is no longer in the interest of a government,society and individual government employers.
One can, of course, argue that from economic standpoint Thailand is already quite advanced country and I agree with that. It is obviously much more advanced than Burma, Cambodia, Phillipines, Vietnam. One can argue that it is even more advanced in many aspects than Malaysia and Indonesia. What is the problem then? It may very well be that Thailand is very close from economic standpoint to the situation where corruption can be dealt with. However, further economic progress (including substantial improvement in living standards) is hampered by poverty. You cannot have society where middle class enjoys living standards, say, in Singapore level and rampant poverty of Isaan.
If you try to create such a society, the level of social tension will become intolerable and social explosion is inevitable. That is what is happening now in Thailand.
Thaksin was the only politician in recent Thailand history who tackled the issue of poverty and quite successfuly (as solid statistics shows) . I know that many people question his motives ( I happen to give the man a lot of credit for that) but from historical viewpoint the motives of certain political actions are not that important in comparison with results.
What is called elite is vehemently oppose these changes because they see empovering poors as the direct threat to their priviledges and frankly for many years used Thai poor as a source of cheap labor force, sex` workers etc. Some representative of middle class (quite selfishly) oppose it too, cause they want their piece of pie right now.
Ironically, the above mentioned discrepency between relatively high level of economic development and rampant poverty led to unprecedented level of sex tourism in Thailand.
From one point a sex tourist could enjoy comfort , safety and infrastructure of a developed society and from another could get a very inexpensive entertainment...
Thailand has a unique political system which made the paradox mentioned above possible. I cannot go into the discussion of it for obvious reasons ( but Homi is right on the money here). It seems, however, that at this stage the contradiction between existing polytical system and obvious economic needs came to the point where very drastic changes in Thai society become necessary. Unfortunately, it looks more and more plausible that this transion will not be pieceful.

Actually, I disagree with you. The problem in Thailand is not really "poverty."

People really get used to almost anything. I guess you know that in 19th-century Thailand, parents had a legal right to sell their children, and girls were forbidden to go to school. Like slavery, all of this was so pervasive that no-one questioned it. A brief parallel with American homophobia: it's so pervasive that nobody questions it.

To my mind, the "problem" in Thailand is a pretty well-known one, the "problem" of rising expectations. That is to say, you may be perfectly happy in your grass shack, but the minute your neighbor puts up a Real House, your happiness will plunge. I have witnessed this at first hand in Iran, that pitiful land. The Iranians had been living happily for centuries when along came OPEC, and the high price of oil, and suddenly everyone was at his neighbor's throat. I suspect that the same thing is happening in Thailand. Mostly because my former BF is shocked himself: "Whenever did Thai people start acting like sharks?" Quote unquote.

The main problem is the perception that some people are getting rich, and YOU ARE NOT.

So then the population falls into the deadly error of thinking: "Anything must be better than this!" (Ya, I've seen it on this forum: "A dead man would be better than Bush.") And so, what do they do?

They throw out the Shah of Iran, and give the government over to Ayatollah Khomeini.

Now, really, fellow readers, was that a wise decision?

You might want to compare and contrast the current situation in former Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), and think of the population's suffering under white rule & guidance, versus their suffering under Mugabe.

Was the problem "poverty?"

[ikarus]

It is quite difficult to argue with you because you apparently read only first line of my message in which I explain why the poverty became such a big issue in Thailand at its current level of economic development. There are much poorer places in the region like Cambodia, for example, and it does not create social tensions over there at the moment.
If you want an intelligent debate on the issue, you should not trivialize your opponent. In some sense, it actually make it quite unplreasant for me to discuss it with you.
Try to understand what I am saying (which, judging from your post will not be easy for you) and then argue if you can.
E.g. you may try come up with an example of a country where the issue of corruption was resolved with percentage of population living beyond poverty level similar to Thailand.
I believe there is none.

I am glad for a change some intellectual inter-change of ideas, views and knowledge taking place in this forum. Some spoilers, but you can not change them they are born that way and will die the same way. However, lots of interesting messages and lets try and keep the same sprit on every subject this forum handles. Keep going guys ... good job

If you want an intelligent debate on the issue ...... don't bother with Henry Cate

As an American myself I have to disagree with Cedric. I have an American passport and can leave any time.

I agree with you on part, about Singapore, Malaysia too most Asian countries in fact do not have British style democracy, a system I think that works the best to serve the people. I however admire the Thai's for having the courage to take action. Bush should've been sent packing a long time ago. It never happened? The entire world suffered. The system is faulty.

Not only that but one billion, 100 000 000 million USA dollars so far, is going to be used to get either Obama or Mc Cain into power. That does not nor ever will be a principle of democracy that I or anyone else should hold in anything but contempt. Do you think after so much vested interest has poured in that those elected will ever again truly be held accountable to anyone but the money people? Hardly. This is just sanctioned corruption, one that an entire nation is powerless to address. This is not democracy this is a rotten to the core moneytocracy.

If I were the Jesus of Democracy I would be running through Washington DC with a flame thrower.

Not only that but one billion, 100 000 000 million USA dollars so far, is going to be used to get either Obama or Mc Cain into power. That does not nor ever will be a principle of democracy that I or anyone else should hold in anything but contemptSo your sole objection is the way elections are funded? As I understand the Thai way, election results are bought by politicians buying votes that they then fund by handing out contracts to their friends and family. At the very least American elections are transparent. However I would make public funding mandatory rather than optional in America. However I don't believe that is going to happen.

Thaksin was the only politician in recent Thailand history who tackled the issue of poverty and quite successfuly (as solid statistics shows)

What "solid statistics", exactly, show his success in this area?

It would be too much to expect you to produce the references you said you would showing the Khunpluem family's fall from power in Chonburi, just after they won the local elections in Chonburi province and Pattaya City, so let's move on and just concentrate on these "solid statistics" and their source instead - if you can.

Evidently absence has had no affect on Ikarus' total inability to produce the "solid statistics" and "references" he blithely talks about, or his ability to predict the future and re-write the past.


There is no way to eliminate corruption by appointing committees, involving courts or making coups. On the contrary, the history tells us that all these "measures" lead to witchhunt of political opponents . Politization of courts is even more dangerous. Thailand is not exception. If you look, e.g. how corruption was contained (not entirely eliminated which is impossible) in success stories in the region like Japan, Korea, Singapore or HK, the story is always the same: adequate compensation of government employeers and high level of economic development (the two , of course, linked).

"On the contrary" history in Hong Kong tells us that this is just how corruption can be minimized very effectively and reasonably quickly (by the CCC, in Hong Kong's case). HK already had "adequate compensation of government employeers and high level of economic development", however, whereas Thailand still lacks the former.

[ikarus]

Do not expect motherfucker that I will discuss anything with you. The idiotic nature of your posts speaks for itself.

[Smiles]

" ... Do not expect motherfucker that I will discuss anything with you. The idiotic nature of your posts speaks for itself ... "

Ikarus :cheers: :cheers:

One of the most poisonous and nastiest (so called) human beings to ever join any message board: and keeps on proving it with every keyboard stroke.
I hope he's the last one left standing just seconds before Sawatdee closes it's doors . . . the entertainment value of any Ikarus reply is priceless.

Cheers ...

[Brad the Impala]

Do not expect motherfucker that I will discuss anything with you. The idiotic nature of your posts speaks for itself.

Aah yes, the power of logical discussion, the joy of forum debate!

blah blah blah....
to those farangs trying to be thai political commentators: you people have too much time.
why not plan your own funeral? that would be a better use of your time...after all, that is probably the most significant event for you in the near future.

Actually, I found myself in agreement with most of Ikarus's original post. It's a pity that he is over-sensitised presumably from past battles and perhaps a need to have every carefully thought out sentence accepted.

GF is not quite correct about about the "CCC", whatever that is. I was recently discussing this period of HK history, at a Home Counties garden party with retired HK folk who'd played parts. They accept that it is only the middle level of corruption that gets weeded out and one of HK's current administration joked that ICAC actually stands for "I can accept cash". There is a point at which politics always trump "corruption" even in the developed countries but Ikarus is correct that as societies grow economically and become more educated low and middle level corruption becomes more difficult. Another way to put it is that power distances shorten. Increased levels of transparency are necessary to higher levels of economic growth.

What is interesting in Thailand is the paradoxical behaviour of Taksin and whether we are actually at a turning point in Thai economic/social history or whether things will follow the same cycles as the last sixty or so years.

Personally, I believe there is a huge event in the offing, not related to PAD or Taksin and until that occurs instability is inevitable, as there will be for some, perhaps short, time after.

Prince Charles was mentioned over the cucumber sandwiches to which I opined that unpopularity is a property of being a Crown Prince - a property that changes after a coronation.

GF is not quite correct about about the "CCC", whatever that is. I was recently discussing this period of HK history, at a Home Counties garden party with retired HK folk who'd played parts. They accept that it is only the middle level of corruption that gets weeded out and one of HK's current administration joked that ICAC actually stands for "I can accept cash".

The CCC briefly preceded the ICAC which is now the CAC. Far from being a "period of HK history", the CAC is still both active and effective - something those "retired HK folk who'd played parts" sound strangely unaware of, as of the joke made by "one of HK's current administration" about the ICAC, which I first heard some thirty years ago in HK.

Transparency International's CPI Index rates HK as the 14th least corrupt country in the world, one place behind the UK and some way ahead of the USA, in 20th place (with Thailand in 84th and Singapore in 4th), so your retirees appear decades out of date - if they were ever correct.


Prince Charles was mentioned over the cucumber sandwiches to which I opined that unpopularity is a property of being a Crown Prince - a property that changes after a coronation.

Really? Are you referring to the UK, or to other countries such as Tonga, or states such as Pahang, where the Crown Princes are so unpopular they may well be the last of their line and are very unlikely to become popular kings (nominally, or otherwise)? Maybe you could back up your sweeping generalisation with some examples?.

I won't be as direct as Ikarus but can well understand his sentimernt and this will be my last riposte to you.

You assert that the ICAC is now the CAC. Rubbish. Anyone who doubts that might care to take a quick look at this. Which is posting current news. (http://www.icac.org.hk/en/home/index.html)

Of course the period of history I refer to is that period during which the ICAC was set up. I have no intention of revealing my sources further, but I do know that they were involved.

As to your shrill demands for statistics and references, I pity your positivistic worldview. Well, there is a reference above that belies your assertion. Statistics? If you can only know that which can be measured you can't know much.

I won't be as direct as Ikarus but can well understand his sentimernt and this will be my last riposte to you.

Strange - that's was Ikarus' solution as well when he was posting what was clearly unadalterated, unsupportable, unjustified rubbish; you apparently intend to emulate him.


You assert that the ICAC is now the CAC. Rubbish.

Rubbish? That is exactly what it is called in the Chinese version of the Basic Law, which has precedence over any English name or title and which forms Hong Kong's constitution. To have changed the Commission's title publicly could have been seen as giving the wrong signals prior to 1997, so although some politicians noticed and commented on this at the time (the early 90's) and made the point that the ICAC was no longer "I" (independent), this went largely unnoticed. One can only wonder just what "parts" those who were "involved" actually "played" if they were unaware of this.


Of course the period of history I refer to is that period during which the ICAC was set up. I have no intention of revealing my sources further, but I do know that they were involved.

Of course?? - "one of HK's current administration joked that ICAC actually stands for "I can accept cash" "

If, however, you were indeed referring to "that period during which the ICAC was set up" then their views (and yours) are understandable but pointless, as they are thirty years out of date and no longer correct.

As for people being "involved", I am reminded of a farang friend whose Thai (ex) boyfriend boasted that his mother worked for the Thai Police and even had a police security pass for the Police Cadet training centre; she was the toilet cleaner.


As to your shrill demands for statistics and references....

Far from any "demands for statistics and references", shrill or otherwise, I simply asked you for "some examples" of the totally baseless comment you made "over the cucumber sandwiches". It appears that there are none.

While typical of the rather inane and tedious chatter of minor functionaries who have attended minor public schools at these sort of functions, most of the chinless wonders attending them to make up the numbers at least have the sense not to repeat their supposed witticisms elsewhere. You cannot even manage that.

I think the solution to the contry's problem is PDA. In the name of democracy, it is resorting to all un-democratic means to come to power. Give it to the buch of jokers and let them rule or ruein the country for two years and therefater let the people write them off the political body for ever. Let Thailand suffer for 2 years rather than suffering for decades until this bunch of jokers come to power

[joe552]

Am I the only one who feels totally lost now?

[Sen Yai]

I think the solution to the contry's problem is PDA. In the name of democracy,........blah blah blah......

steve, why do you feel the need to make your comments in bold font?

Do you really think that what you have to say is so much more important than the rest of us that it deserves added emphasis?

Or are you partially sighted?

[Smiles]

I think the solution to the contry's problem is PDA. In the name of democracy,........blah blah blah......

steve, why do you feel the need to make your comments in bold font?
Do you really think that what you have to say is so much more important than the rest of us that it deserves added emphasis?
Or are you partially sighted?
No, not blind. The man's a total fool. The 'bolding' affectation is only one indication of his affliction.
" ... I think the solution to the contry's problem is PDA ... " indeed: what more proof could one need, (besides the inability to spell the word 'country' correctly)?


Cheers ...

I think the solution to the contry's problem is PDA. In the name of democracy,........blah blah blah......

steve, why do you feel the need to make your comments in bold font?
Do you really think that what you have to say is so much more important than the rest of us that it deserves added emphasis?
Or are you partially sighted?
No, not blind. The man's a total fool. The 'bolding' affectation is only one indication of his affliction.
" ... I think the solution to the contry's problem is PDA ... " indeed: what more proof could one need, (besides the inability to spell the word 'country' correctly)?


Cheers ...

Country? He can't even spell "PAD" correctly!

[Bob]

No, not blind. The man's a total fool. The 'bolding' affectation is only one indication of his affliction.
" ... I think the solution to the contry's problem is PDA ... " indeed: what more proof could one need, (besides the inability to spell the word 'country' correctly)?


Much too kind....

No, not blind. The man's a total fool. The 'bolding' affectation is only one indication of his affliction. Yes, another one for the {Ignore} list, I'm afraid

Did I say wisdom ....... I am sure none of the perverts have that. They can only effectively speak about boys, balls, dicks ha ha ha ha. Their knowledge does not expand beyond that. Intellectually challenged

[andrewcraig]

Did I say wisdom ....... I am sure none of the perverts have that. They can only effectively speak about boys, balls, dicks ha ha ha ha. Their knowledge does not expand beyond that. Intellectually challenged


to meet more your type of person you really should join www.baht-stop.com (http://www.baht-stop.com)

you are far too precious to waste your time here

Am I the only one who feels totally lost now?

No, I'm with you there.

I've been trying to puzzle out who and what the PDA really represents. I know it is anti-Thaksin. That seems to be the only thing uniting a bunch of disparite groups.

News reports mention groups of "royalist businessmen" as part of it. Does anyone know who these people are? Any names?
Are there army and police factions supporting it? I mean known factions, not just "there must be some" speculation.

One thing seems certain, they are not for "democracy" as we understand it. They seem to be pushing a type of constitution that has been used in the past where the Palace appoints most of the legeslature and appoints the Prime Minister.

Edit: Also, is there a political party aligned with them?

[Bob]

It's PAD.....not PDA.

Surprisingly, I found what I think is the most accurate description of this group on an Aljazeera website:

english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2008/09/2008935491945127.html (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2008/09/2008935491945127.html)

Basically, in my view, they're against democracy and totally for boosting the ego of wacko Sondhi Limthongkul. Some assert PAD is doing the bidding of the palace whereas others assert they doing the bidding of the military. All seem to disdain the ability or right of Thai citizens to choose their own leaders.

PPP or PAD?

http://www.wolaver.org/animals/ostrich.jpg

It's PAD.....not PDA.People Against Democracy

Quoth Cedric:


If I were the Jesus of Democracy I would be running through Washington DC with a flame thrower.

Of course, this has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with his often-expressed hatred of Americans.

"The Jesus of Democracy" would be running through Washington with a flame-thrower??

He might get all burnt hisself!

100 000 000 million USA dollars

Well, our master Cedric is a very opinionated guy, so we hapless colonials will just have do to the math for him.

YAWN.

1,000,000 = one million

1,000,000,000 = one billion (or, for Brits, a "thousand million")

Now, 100,000,000 million US dollars (as specified by Cedric) is actually a very interesting piece of change.

He is apparently referring to "a hundred million million dollars."

So, let's see: 1,000,000 mutiplied by 100,000,000 = equals ? 100,000,000,000,000 $USD.

How much is that?

1,000,000,000 = one US billion

1,000,000,000,000 = one US trillion

100,000,000,000,000 = Cedric's magic number is $100 trillion US dollars.

Which is to say that the Presidential candidates are spending something like 25 times the annual budget of the US on their campaigns.

Which is absurd,

but, then again, so is Cedric.