Where is Georgia????

Not the peanut-chewing farmer's home, but the birthplace of Stalin?

Where is the danged place, anyway?

Well, I finally looked, and it's in a VERY interesting location. It's not landlocked, as I originally imagined...

But I leave the details for your own investigation!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/2793585836_53fb6d6799_o.jpg

Henry, are you an American? Is there any doubt?

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Where is Georgia????

..on my mind.

Henry, are you an American? I ask simply because in my small experience, Americans are not well blessed in geography. I remember going to a high school quiz in Virginia where one of the questions was "Name two countries in the EU"; there were some very odd replies, including Argentina, Malawi and China....

How nice of you to say "blessed" rather than "educated." (A) I am an American, to answer that question. But I have progressed a wee bit beyond the "Malawi is in Europe" stage...When I was in Iran, I finally got a firm fix on the location of the Caspian Sea, while munching fresh caviar obtained by my Iranian doctor-lover. But the Black Sea has always caused problems for me.

And now, there is Georgia! It used to be painted red on the maps, and labelled USSR, but now we can see that it almost extends from the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea. Alas, the birthplace of one of the greatest tyrants in history.

However, my knowledge of the Balkans is almost zero, compared with SE Asia. I recently became fascinated with the borders between Yunnan (China), the Shan States in Burma, and Northern Thailand. After all, we may read that the defeated Kuomintag retreated from China to Burma, and then were kicked out of Burma a decade later due to Chinese pressure, and forced to move to Mae Salong in Northern Thailand. But it's surprising to realize that the retreat into Burma may have been a matter of 50 km or so, while the move to Thailand may have been another 50 km or. (MAY HAVE BEEN, I haven't seen maps of the actual journeys.) It makes you think how small and interrelated these parts are, sort of like meeting a Shan boy from China !!. Of course, he's from Sipsongpanna in Yunnan Provice, a mere stone's throw from the Shan states.

But I'm ashamed to admit I still don't know where a lot of the Balkans are. Maybe it's time to pick up Kinglake's Crimean History again!

[Khor tose]

However, my knowledge of the Balkans is almost zero, compared with SE Asia. I recently became fascinated with the borders between Yunnan (China), the Shan States in Burma, and Northern Thailand. After all, we may read that the defeated Kuomintag retreated from China to Burma, and then were kicked out of Burma a decade later due to Chinese pressure, and forced to move to Mae Salong in Northern Thailand. But it's surprising to realize that the retreat into Burma may have been a matter of 50 km or so, while the move to Thailand may have been another 50 km or. (MAY HAVE BEEN, I haven't seen maps of the actual journeys.) It makes you think how small and interrelated these parts are, sort of like meeting a Shan boy from China !!. Of course, he's from Sipsongpanna in Yunnan Provice, a mere stone's throw from the Shan states.

I have a more then fair knowledge of history, but I did not know about the Nationalist Chinese in Thailand. I googled it and was quite surprised at what I learned. We kept the army supplied and helped them launch three invasions of China. When those failed the army turned to opium trading and has been a factor in the golden triangle ever since. Thank you Henry for this delicious tidbit.

http://www.pbase.com/tsechien/golden_triangle

....
And now, there is Georgia! It used to be painted red on the maps, and labelled USSR, but now we can see that it almost extends from the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea. Alas, the birthplace of one of the greatest tyrants in history.

However, my knowledge of the Balkans is almost zero, compared with SE Asia.... .But I'm ashamed to admit I still don't know where a lot of the Balkans are. Maybe it's time to pick up Kinglake's Crimean History again!

Uhh...try a little harder Henry.
Georgia is in the Caucases not the Balkans. And though they are both on the Black Sea, it also isn't in the Crimea.

And I'll bet you know more about it than Georgie Bushie. :idea:

....
And now, there is Georgia! It used to be painted red on the maps, and labelled USSR, but now we can see that it almost extends from the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea. Alas, the birthplace of one of the greatest tyrants in history.

However, my knowledge of the Balkans is almost zero, compared with SE Asia.... .But I'm ashamed to admit I still don't know where a lot of the Balkans are. Maybe it's time to pick up Kinglake's Crimean History again!

Uhh...try a little harder Henry.
Georgia is in the Caucases not the Balkans. And though they are both on the Black Sea, it also isn't in the Crimea.

Well, I said I didn't know anything about the Balkans...and you just had to step in and confirm it! :-)

I have a more then fair knowledge of history, but I did not know about the Nationalist Chinese in Thailand. I googled it and was quite surprised at what I learned. We kept the army supplied and helped them launch three invasions of China. When those failed the army turned to opium trading and has been a factor in the golden triangle ever since. Thank you Henry for this delicious tidbit.

According to my Lonely Planet Guide to Chiang Mai & Northern Thailand, there is a bit more to the story. Some of it has to do with the presumed fact that, while they were in Burma, in the Shan States, they met up with the notorious Khun Sa, a warlord who was still powerful in 1992. (As an example, I knew a Karen lad who went into Burma to earn money cutting down teak: in order to get into Burma, the only document necessary was a note issued by Khun Sa.)

We Americans may have kept the Kuomintang in arms, and we probably did so, but it was with the full knowledge and cooperation of the Thai government. In particular, those Chinese soldiers were the people mostly responsible for wiping out (violently) the Communist revolutionaries in Thailand. Many of the Chinese died as well. It seems that they were given Mae Salong as a reward -- I have no idea about the real facts of the matter, but recently I was idly looking into the idea of buying land in Mae Salong, and more than one person told me that the only way that could happen was to marry into it!

I am sure opinions on the Kuomintang vs. the Thai Communists will differ violently, but so far I stick with my general observation, which is: "Take a good long look at SE Asia. Look at Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Thailand. One country is clearly far in the lead, not just economically but by almost any standard. I attribute this to the fact that Thailand was never colonized, and never suffered under a Communist government."

Lots of people like to patronize the Thai as stupid, or politically inept, but I think that such facts should be enough to cause a few doubts to arise. Such facts may indeed lead to King Bhumipol being granted the historical status of "King Bhumipol the Great."

[Wesley]

The reason we have a problem with the former soviet states is that they were all the same color on the map. I have a particular knowledge because of my time in the former Soviet states and the Russians do love to talk about their great time of glory when they ran everything from Berlin to China. Although my expertise is in the difference in theological differences where you get all the geography is in the former Roman Empire and the affect the Greek culture had on the Empire, however then comes the Persians (who by the way have no such thing as homosexuals in their country) as well as all the mid-east and Babylonian former Empires. I begin to get mixed up in Western Europe. Although MSN teaches you more than Google ever could. Friends all over the world with loads of little bits and pieces about their culture. Almost everyone wonders where Kyrgyzstan is and the only way to explain it is it is north of Afghanistan by about 600 miles. In between are the Stans that reach all the way to Mongolia and where most of the Stans got their slanted eyes as most of the original Stans were until the 11th century when they were conquered by the Mongolians. Until then they were more Eurasian looking and if you run into one who still has the gene pool they are remarkably beautiful people.


The Russian culture is so full of history there is no reason to begin, suffice to say a month in the museums of Moscow would not be enough time to see all the paintings and artifacts of their history. They were for centuries a hard people to keep down but were often tormented by the Tatar who would occasionally come in and round up the fringes of the great empire. They from the Steep were easily conquered after the Russians became efficient at war after WWI.

Now what the Stans call the NEW Russians are despised but, yet beholden to Putin for oil and for some time were pro-western until recently when the whole of the former states were secretly told to start thinking where their gas comes from. Kyrgyzstan once when they stood up to them were cut off and almost frozen before the Russians made their point much the same way as Georgia now. They tend to overstate their case long after some one has capitulated. However, in this one the Georgians were quite stupid to pick a fight knowing the G7 were incapable of doing anything more than protest, since the USA has been for some time tied up in Afghanistan and Iraq to take on a new strategic problem with the Balkans. So, now the Russians can snub their nose at all of Europe and NATO, as long s the so called Americans are tied up with their own problems and lack of ability to pay their own way the Russians have a perfect time to move in since the Americans have sold their wealth to China to pay for the Saudi oil. I think and said so three years ago that the resurgence of Putin and Russia on the scene will be a NEW Russian take over as Putin Acknowledged he is the wealthiest man on earth and made it off the backs of the Russian people and they could not be happier to have him just where he is, in full control of all that moves with in his eyesight

So, there is a new rich Russia on the scene that has totally recovered from the fall, militarily however, although they have a huge army but their equipment is still in shambles and not ready for a real challenge from the west. The show of force was Putin saying тАЬwere backтАЭ as in poltergeist. They are flippant and can afford to be. Europe has no real army and the US is in debt up to their ass, it will take years to pay off the mess Bush has made and the world police are now stretched too thin. Unless the EU steps up Putin will do as he pleases.

Wes

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

It's pretty clear to me that Wesley could well be a CIA agent and Henry Cate hasn't yet read that the Lonely Planet writers make up the whole thing.

I once attended a charity function with the Gorbechevs in attendance at which a hideous queen sang in a falsetto voice for nearly 40 minutes-driving the entire audience almost batty-except for Mikael & Raisa Gorbechev who were most polite and listened to every word.

Afterwards I had to shake Mikeal's hand and I couldn't help notice it was the size of a small ham-and dear Raisa wore a very cheap frock..but they were ever so friendly. I did get collared by-what I assumed was some sort of KGB agent afterwards who asked who I was etc..but he was fabulously handsome and hugely butch in that Russian way so that was an extra treat.

I reported all this to my insane Russian grandmother who simply said I made all up--the hideous old crow. And she doen't have a clue about Georgia.

[Wesley]

Indeed , I've been playing dumb all this time as a cover; My dear Khun Booze. I have heard of your wonderful Russian heritage,

Fsivo Horoshiva

Wes

.... I have a particular knowledge because of my time in the former Soviet states and the Russians do love to talk about their great time of glory when they ran everything from Berlin to China.
....since the USA has been for some time tied up in Afghanistan and Iraq to take on a new strategic problem with the Balkans. ....

Dammit! Would youse guys quit with the Balkans already! Get an atlas or google it or wiki it or something!

BALKANS - WEST side of the Black Sea, think Yugoslavia, Serbia, Croatia, Albania

CAUCASES - EAST side of the Black Sea, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Chechnya

I am sure opinions on the Kuomintang vs. the Thai Communists will differ violently, but so far I stick with my general observation, which is: "Take a good long look at SE Asia. Look at Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Thailand. One country is clearly far in the lead, not just economically but by almost any standard. I attribute this to the fact that Thailand was never colonized, and never suffered under a Communist government".Let's selectively forget Singapore and Malaysia, both of which were colonized. While Malaysia has self-inflected a number of wounds, notably the Bumiputra policy, it also suffered a Communist insurgency, just as Thailand did. Both countries were formerly colonized, Malaysia is nevertheless on a par with Thailand; Singapore is well ahead

Homi got in there before this old colonial. Talk about selecting the facts tro fit your argument. I believe it's taught as part of "show & tell" in "grade 3".

OTOH the role of the British has been selectively written off the tourist plaques in Singapore where Chinese Merchants set up so many successful enterprises despite the dumbass rubber planters. I wonder who'll write their history in 100 years.

Homi got in there before this old colonial. Talk about selecting the facts tro fit your argument. I believe it's taught as part of "show & tell" in "grade 3"Sadly poor old Henry isn't one of the Board's deep thinkers (and I don't say that as a racist :cyclopsani: ) for all his pretensions

Indeed , I've been playing dumb all this time as a cover; My dear Khun Booze. I have heard of your wonderful Russian heritage,

Fsivo Horoshiva

Wes

Chego tolko ne prochitaesh.

doh!

At least I have no will to comment that Georgian - Russian war crap.

[Wesley]

.... I have a particular knowledge because of my time in the former Soviet states and the Russians do love to talk about their great time of glory when they ran everything from Berlin to China.
....since the USA has been for some time tied up in Afghanistan and Iraq to take on a new strategic problem with the Balkans. ....

Dammit! Would youse guys quit with the Balkans already! Get an atlas or google it or wiki it or something!

BALKANS - WEST side of the Black Sea, think Yugoslavia, Serbia, Croatia, Albania

CAUCASES - EAST side of the Black Sea, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Chechnya

Baltics or Balkns does make a diffference, but same problem. if your too close to Putin your scewed,

[Wesley]

Indeed , I've been playing dumb all this time as a cover; My dear Khun Booze. I have heard of your wonderful Russian heritage,

Fsivo Horoshiva

Wes

Chego tolko ne prochitaesh.

doh!

At least I have no will to comment that Georgian - Russian war crap.

Privit,

Good it seems enough people have shown thier igrorance on the subeject and country about the size of South Carolina,
BTW was that duh
Wes

Wes

[Uranus]

Georgia - that is CNN and Coca-Cola!

[markie1]

right in the middle of Russia and Turkey

"Look at Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Thailand. One country is clearly far in the lead, not just economically but by almost any standard. I attribute this to the fact that Thailand was never colonized, and never suffered under a Communist government."

When was Burma under a Communist government? I thought they were became independent at the same time as India and Pakistan, and then there was a coup and there's been a military dictatorship ever since. Doesn't Burma really need comparison with India and Pakistan in that case?

"....When was Burma under a Communist government? I thought they were became independent at the same time as India and Pakistan, and then there was a coup and there's been a military dictatorship ever since. ...?

Yes, a Military-Socialist dictatorship with Socialist leanings. They still use classical socialist rhetoric in the banners you see all over Rangoon (in English for some odd reason).

Just because there is a military government doesn't mean they are de-facto fascists and right wingers. Frankly, from my point of view, there's no damn difference other than rhetoric between a facist and a communist. They all destroy personal freedom and make citizens slaves of the State. And eventually a lot of them become mass murderers. Stalin and Mao killed just as many, if not more, people than Hitler.

"Stalin and Mao killed just as many, if not more, people than Hitler."

I think I read once that Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, killed more people than Hitler too.

...Baltics or Balkns does make a diffference, but same problem....

BALTICS?!?

Ay! Caramba!

I'm going to pop a blood vessel pretty soon! :umn:

When was Burma under a Communist government? I thought they were became independent at the same time as India and Pakistan, and then there was a coup and there's been a military dictatorship ever since. Doesn't Burma really need comparison with India and Pakistan in that case?Interestingly this month's Atlantic magazine does a retrospective on Burma and it's available online. The Burmese generals just keep on inflicting damage on their people - and their greatest fan is, as we know from reading That Book, HMTK himself

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/195802/burma

"Stalin and Mao killed just as many, if not more, people than Hitler."

I think I read once that Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, killed more people than Hitler too.

Well, you were reading someone stupid, then. Damn the Americans as you like, but we do tend to notice when 12 people go missing, much less 12 million.

If you want some REAL religious fun, go and study the Millerites. They are, in my opinion, THE textbook case of how religious faith survives the most obvious disproofs. Other examples (among several million) would be the Catholic reaction to the realization that Pseudo-Dionysius was in fact pseudo, the Mormon reaction to the absolute proof that Joseph Smith was an arrant liar, and today's Communists who wander around saying stuff like: "I really hate it when they describe the USSR as...you know..gulags..and...you know oppression...That was when the USSR wasn't even socialist." (For the information of all, the Terror began with Lenin on Day One, and the USSR was never "socialist.")

...Baltics or Balkns does make a diffference, but same problem....

BALTICS?!?

Ay! Caramba!

I'm going to pop a blood vessel pretty soon! :umn:

I sympathize with your frustration. You really must come up to Chiang Mai and explain it all to me!! :-)

OK!!! Baltics to the left -- oops, West -- of the Black Sea!!! Caucasian Mountains to the RIGHT! (Oops, East).

East-West challenged Henry. (My older brother is Left-Right challenged). The word "challenged" here is Newspeak for DUMB.

Frankly, from my point of view, there's no damn difference other than rhetoric between a facist and a communist. They all destroy personal freedom and make citizens slaves of the State. And eventually a lot of them become mass murderers. Stalin and Mao killed just as many, if not more, people than Hitler.

Remind me of this while I am working on my magnum opus: Slavedrivers: A History of the Twentieth Century.

The people who try to point out tiny little differences between the SLAVEDRIVERS are pathetic.

"Damn the Americans as you like"

I AM an American.