timescales for property purchase

[thanatorn-old]

I've done a basic search on this board, and others, and a bit of trawling on the net (and continuing to do so), but being the lazy sod I am, I am looking for answers to a couple of questons:

A realistic timescale to purchase of a condo from time of finding what I like to completion of legal process and receipt of keys. Is three weeks ok or I am on " cloud lala land?"

A rough guide, guestimate, (how long is a piece of string, I suppose), of legal and translation fees.

Further on completion I am thinking of letting the boy special rent it from me as it is still a good while before I move to Pattaya, but am concerned about possible legal issues down the line, where I could be presented with a situation where he has lived there so long, or had numerous leases that it is difficult to get him out.

I am almost incllined to do this on the quiet without his knowledge as my trust level is reasonably high but not that high, but there again having an intelligent well spoken Thai person to assist would be an advantage? (Also possible wrath when he does find out as he is bound to). Comments and answers gratefully received.

DELETED

Time to complete a purchase is up to you and the seller. A week would be plenty of time if you already have the money. Can be done say day you find a place. Main cost when purchasing a property are the various taxes/charges paid at the Land Office. It is up to you to agree with the seller in advance what proportion of these you pay. Given the state of the resale market at the moment, you should probably insist that all taxes and costs are paid by the seller. But be fair and do this when you make your offer for the Condo and make sure the agent passes this condition on (some agents 'forget' to do so, to make the offer sound more attractive).

... the various taxes/charges paid at the Land Office.Don't forget the "tea money" you'll have to stump up to get the bureaucrats to do anything

... the various taxes/charges paid at the Land Office.Don't forget the "tea money" you'll have to stump up to get the bureaucrats to do anything

Don't listen to hummingturd. He's rented a cheapo flophouse in the Silom area for years. He's never bought a condo in Thailand, nor set foot in a land office in his life.

Depending on how busy it is, you can complete the actual title transfer in half a day, easily -- if you have all your papers in order. I have done it four times now, and never once had to pay any "tea money".

... the various taxes/charges paid at the Land Office.Don't forget the "tea money" you'll have to stump up to get the bureaucrats to do anything

Quite. That's why I didn't even attempt to offer a figure. It's also why a farang should never attempt to deal with the Land Office themself. Thais know how to negotiate the size of the officer's cut without ever suggesting that the gallant officer could be anything other than a thoroughly upright fellow.

Done it myself four times, no tea payments.

Be aware that farangs often hire local lawyers to help them "navigate" the Land Office, and those lawyers often tell them tea money is required when, in reality, they are simply pocketing it themselves.

Same thing with lawyers who offer their services arranging retirement visas, permanent residence, etc. They extort their clients in the name of fictitious tea money, when none is necessary.

I have also bought property in Thailand...Pattaya in particular.....and can assure you that Fattman in right on target. I would also say that anyone that doesn't hire their own attorney, not associated in any way with a real estate agent, to handle the the entire transaction is "dancing in the fire."

The attorney did all of the due diligence: checked the deeds and went to the property to check the boundary markers and make sure it was the right property: went to city hall to make sure there were no leans, loans or tax bills, and handled the actual transfer of money and recording of the new deed, plus what ever tea money was required came out of his pocket....total cost 10,000 baht. I think very cheap for the peace of mind and absence of grief and irritation that comes with dealing with bureaucrats anywhere in the world.


In my particular case I made the sales agreement and flew back to America to make the wire transfer of money to my attorney's account. The transaction was completed the next day at Pattaya City Hall and the documents locked in my attorney's safe until I returned to Thailand. That was four years ago; it all went perfectly.

As to letting the BF live there and rent; nothing to worry about. Let the attorney make what ever contract is necessary and if it ever comes to throwing him out....let your attorney do the dirty work. If you are planning to live in Thailand in the future it is a good idea to already have an attorney just in case something happens that requires legal help.

As Chao na and Fattman say, it is possible - even easy - to do the transaction at the Land Office oneself. You hand over the papers, the officer says 'that will be X,000 baht please', you pay. If you use a Thai lawyer, they negotiate the value on which the charges are based. The result is that you pay X,000 baht minus Y,000 baht. I am quite sure that no mention of tea money is made at any point during these negotiations, nor any questions asked about how the sum handed over is allocated.

There is a sting in this tale. Part of the tax payable (in theory, by the seller) is based on the difference between purchase price and selling price. The more the purchase price was deflated, the greater the potential tax on re-sale. Though if the selling price is deflated too ...

Back to my original advice. If you buy second hand property, stipulate that your offer is subject to the seller paying all the costs. But be aware than the Land Office records may show a much lower price than the one you actually paid - and you may end up paying tax on the difference when you come to sell.

Or you can follow Chao Na's advice. All Thais are honest and incorruptible. Just hand over whatever sums are asked, and all will be well.

Or you can follow Chao Na's advice. All Thais are honest and incorruptible. Just hand over whatever sums are asked, and all will be well.

Don't be an asshole. I never said nor implied that.

The charges made at the Land Department are completely transparent and non-negotiable, trust me. The tax is not calculated on the sales price less the purchase price. It is made on the assessed value at the time of selling, less the assessed value at the time the property was purchased. The assessed value is set by the Land Department based on the age and location of the property, and is not discretionary. Anyone can contact the Land Department to find out what the assessed value of floor space in a particular building is. It will always be far, far below the price you will actually be paying.

In any case, that tax is completely for the seller -- not the buyer -- to worry about.

As some of you may know, there is a big discount on transfer fees from now until sometime in the first quarter of 2009 if I'm not mistaken. The discount was handed down by the government, in an effort to stimulate the economy. So if you're intent on making a purchase, now would be a good time from that perspective.

But, sorry, I've gone on for too long. I don't think anyone here is interested in hearing anything from someone who has actually been through the process many times. If you like, you can carry on taking advice from Hummingturd, who has never step foot in a Land Office in his (very, very long) life.

... the various taxes/charges paid at the Land Office.Don't forget the "tea money" you'll have to stump up to get the bureaucrats to do anything

As has already been said, absolute rubbish. Either you or (preferably) your lawyer can do it in half a day - go before they open to secure your place in the queue and it could take less. Legal loans, mortgages, etc, using the land as security, are registered and shown on the title deed, as are rights of way (which the land office will usually point out to any purchaser) so the lawyer actually does a minimal amount of work, but he is also paid a relatively minimal amount of money. None of these checks, transactions, etc are done at "City Hall" but all are carried out at the district land office.

No "tea money" is required in Pattaya to speed anything up or smooth the process, although it may help if (unusually) someone were buying land for which no chanute has yet been made and wanted it surveyed and issued quickly, or if you are tying to "persuade" the tax assessor that the unusually low price you paid, on which tax is assessed, is genuine.

"letting the boy special rent it"? Legally he will only be entitled to whatever lease he has, nothing more. Quite how you could buy a condo, in your name, then rent it to him "without his knowledge", or why you would want to, escapes me.

"The charges made at the Land Department are completely transparent and non-negotiable, trust me."

The rules are a great deal more complex than Chao Na implies. Speaking only for myself, whenever anyone says 'trust me', my instinct is not to. As to any tax being 'completely for the seller' this is obvious bollocks. It is perfectly legal (and common practice) for either buyer and seller to agree that one party or other will pay all the taxes whatever they may be.

Finally, it would be insane to let tax discounts influence when or whether to purchase. They are small beer comapred to the potential profits or losses - whether you pay the official rate or not.

I have bought and sold property in Pattaya many times - and am very happy that I have. I currently own no property there, and have no plans to buy

[globalwanderer]

The transaction was completed the next day at Pattaya City Hall and the documents locked in my attorney's safe until I returned to Thailand. That was four years ago; it all went perfectly.



The 'transaction' is actually completed at the Land Office not City Hall

There appears to be some (?) confusion here. The specific tax under discussion which Homesick says "is based on the difference between purchase price and selling price" and which Chao Na says "is made on the assessed value at the time of selling, less the assessed value at the time the property was purchased" is the seller's Personal Income Tax, which is only one of the taxes paid. It is actually based on the assessed value of the property when sold, the assessed value when bought, the length of time it was owned and the relevant rate of personal income tax. This is usually around 2-3% and is now normally paid together with two additional taxes (three, if applicable) at the Land Office.

The three other taxes payable at the Land Office are (i) the Land Registration Transfer Fee, based on the official assessed value; (ii) the Stamp Duty, based on the assessed value or the sale price (whichever is higher); (iii) the Specific Business Tax, based again on the assessed value or the sale price (whichever is higher) - payable for all sales by a company or for private sales within five years of purchase. No taxes are payable if the sale is simply a transfer of company directors.

If this is beyond you, then use a lawyer.

[globalwanderer]

(iii) the Specific Business Tax, based again on the assessed value or the sale price (whichever is higher) - payable for all sales by a company or for private sales within five years of purchase. No taxes are payable if the sale is simply a transfer of company directors.

If this is beyond you, then use a lawyer.

and it is this which I believe is currently reduced to 0.5%

Gone Fishing's latest account appears to be the most accurate so far in that it ackowledges that various different taxes and charges are involved (as did my original post) and that these are based on a range of different factors, including the declared selling price which may or may not be the real one. However, the last account I read of the taxes/charges payable on the sale/purchase of property (written by a Thai lawyer) ran to several pages. The more complex the system (and even Gone Fishing's account is complex enough), the more open it is to abuse. But, as I have already said, the amounts are small beer - like the 'fines' imposed by traffic police (which, no doubt, Chao Na will insist never happen).

[thanatorn-old]

Many thanks to all of you for your replies.

Always good to get various opinions and helps confirm some of the info I have gathered.

As an aside - gone fishing - I asked for comments etc re the boyfriend as I have been coming out to Pattaya for a while now and have learnt not to trust anyone too far, and not understanding the law that well there, I do not want complications re leases or know if there are some sort of "squatters rights" or whatever. Reviewing my original post, i did not phrase the original query clearly, as what I meant was either the possibility of leasing to him, or not at all and keeping him out of the picture all together until Iwas more comfortable/ trusting with the relationship

Following up - not sure if recommendations by name are ok on the board, (if not can pm) but any referals for attorneys would be of help.

It seems most of my posts on the board are always asking for help or advice. Sorry about that but it is greatly appreciated.

I sent you my lawyer's name and phone # on PM.

But, as I have already said, the amounts are small beer - like the 'fines' imposed by traffic police (which, no doubt, Chao Na will insist never happen).

Partly true, in fact. You never, ever have to pay a bribe to a traffic cop. You always have the option of taking a ticket and paying at the local cop shop. When people pay a bribe, they do so by choice -- because they can't be bothered. It is, however, always a choice.

A realistic timescale to purchase of a condo from time of finding what I like to completion of legal process and receipt of keys. Is three weeks ok or I am on " cloud lala land?"
.

Well Im not sure who to believe anymore, but I was given to understand purchasing property in Thailand as a foreigner was considered illegal.

A realistic timescale to purchase of a condo from time of finding what I like to completion of legal process and receipt of keys. Is three weeks ok or I am on " cloud lala land?"
.

Well Im not sure who to believe anymore, but I was given to understand purchasing property in Thailand as a foreigner was considered illegal.


Oh, Cedric. Foreigners have been able to own condominiums in Thailand for years and years. Perhaps if you left your Sukhothai suite, $10 hamburgers, and 500 baht prawns from your favorite "seafood shack", you might actually learn something.

Oh, Cedric. Foreigners have been able to own condominiums in Thailand for years and years. Perhaps if you left your Sukhothai suite, $10 hamburgers, and 500 baht prawns from your favorite "seafood shack", you might actually learn something.

Good lord Chao Na and I thought they were expensive? Either one of us has their exchange rates twisted in a knot or I've been eating on the cheap.

It's as I believed about apartments, do you get sectional title deeds? I was told on another thread here that if I wanted a house with a decent size garden, for your benefit that would be a little bigger than a ten dollar hamburger, lets say seven hectares, that that would be illegal? Is it?

What exactly is the definition of "legal property" for foreigners in that case, as you seem so informed?

Oh, Cedric.

When you buy a condominium, you get a title deed to that condominium unit with your name on it. Foreign ownership of units in any one building is limited to 49% of the floor space, by the way.

Foreigners may not hold title to land, except in very rare and impractical circumstances involving investing a lot of money. You can form a majority Thai-owned corporation, over which you control by director rights, which can hold title. This is not technically legal, but commonplace.

Oh, Cedric.

When you buy a condominium, you get a title deed to that condominium unit with your name on it. Foreign ownership of units in any one building is limited to 49% of the floor space, by the way.

So no sectional title I assume?


Foreigners may not hold title to land, except in very rare and impractical circumstances involving investing a lot of money. You can form a majority Thai-owned corporation, over which you control by director rights, which can hold title. This is not technically legal, but commonplace.

So land with a house on it is also one of those "impractical" circumstance? A suburban home with a few square meters the same?

I can vouch for the majority opinion AGAINST the "tea money".

A good agent familiar, like you, with the "territory" AND, of course, ALL the paperwork can be key. Watch any negotiations don't get off in an arguement.

Be careful using multiple agents.

Also I would look in areas NOT saturated with overdevelopment, of course. Now might be the time!

100% Satisfied Here.

I was not familiar with the term "sectional title", so I googled it. It looks like that is what they call title to condominium units in South Africa and Namibia.

The title you receive for a condominium in purchase gives you ownership of that condominium, and, by the Condominium Act, a partial ownership of the building itself and the land it sits on -- just like anywhere else in the world.

The size of a piece of land, and whether or not there is construction on it is irrelevant: foreigners may not hold title, except in very limited, extraordinary cases involving millions of dollars (not baht). If you are intent on owning a little homestead, you will have to go through the company route, like every other foreigner.

foreigners may not hold title, except in very limited, extraordinary cases involving millions of dollars (not baht).

40 million baht, actually, in Thai government bonds or certain Thai companies, or even a condominium, entitles you to buy up to one rai of land for your personal use; you can also inherit up to one rai.

While the taxes at between 4.5 to 8% now may be "small beer" to Homesick, they were considered important enough to temporarily reduce the Specific Business tax from 3.3 to 0.11%, and the Transfer Fee from 2 to 0.01% in 2001 to boost property sales - an effective discount of just over 5%.

Thanatorn,

understood - I had mis-understood that part of your original post. "The Attorney's House" on North Pattaya Road are reliable and mainly deal in property transfers (8,000 baht per transaction), and I have also had only good reports of the lawyer/owner of the Balcony Restaurant, also on North Pattaya Road.

"While the taxes at between 4.5 to 8% now may be "small beer" to Homesick, they were considered important enough to temporarily reduce the Specific Business tax from 3.3 to 0.11%, and the Transfer Fee from 2 to 0.01% in 2001 to boost property sales - an effective discount of just over 5%."

If you have paid 8% of the purchase price of a condo in taxes (or anything remotely approaching it) you have been taken to the cleaners BIGTIME. A salutary warning to others - don't imagine you can out-Thai the Thais. Hire someone who knows what they're doing.

Please read a little more carefully, Homesick.

"the Specific Business Tax, based again on the assessed value or the sale price (whichever is higher) - payable for all sales by a company or for private sales within five years of purchase. No taxes are payable if the sale is simply a transfer of company directors." Most condos will not be registered in a company name, so the SBT usually does not apply.

Personal Income Tax (2-3%, based on assessed values) plus Transfer Fee (2% of assessed value) plus Stamp Duty (0.5% based on assessed value or sales price) equals 4.5 - 5.5%. These are assessed official values, non-negotiable (except up!).

If your experience of condo purchase was between 2001 and 2004, when the taxes were reduced as I have detailed, you would have only paid 2.51 - 3.01%.

As it only costs around 8-10,000 baht for a property lawyer to do the job for you I agree that it is generally easier to hire one, but do expect to pay tax!.

Please read a little more carefully, Homesick.

"the Specific Business Tax, based again on the assessed value or the sale price (whichever is higher) - payable for all sales by a company or for private sales within five years of purchase. No taxes are payable if the sale is simply a transfer of company directors." Most condos will not be registered in a company name, so the SBT usually does not apply.

Personal Income Tax (2-3%, based on assessed values) plus Transfer Fee (2% of assessed value) plus Stamp Duty (0.5% based on assessed value or sales price) equals 4.5 - 5.5%. These are assessed official values, non-negotiable (except up!).

If your experience of condo purchase was between 2001 and 2004, when the taxes were reduced as I have detailed, you would have only paid 2.51 - 3.01%.

As it only costs around 8-10,000 baht for a property lawyer to do the job for you I agree that it is generally easier to hire one, but do expect to pay tax!.

The total taxes/charges payable on the purchase of a condo are not now, and have never been, 8% of the purchase price. I understand, of course, that you were only playing with the figures to make your point seem more valid. But there is always the risk people might not realise this and assume you were telling the truth.

Please "gone fishing "can you change your logo of that boy, I read all the replies and then I get completely distracted by the image and forget what the whole thing was about

[Aunty]

Don't forget the "tea money" you'll have to stump up to get the bureaucrats to do anything

Ooooooh, Beryl, I've just read this thread. You've made a complete puddin of yourself on this one! Tea money indeed! LOL

How's your palatial doss-house in Silom? Seen any movies lately?

The total taxes/charges payable on the purchase of a condo are not now, and have never been, 8% of the purchase price. I understand, of course, that you were only playing with the figures to make your point seem more valid. But there is always the risk people might not realise this and assume you were telling the truth.

You are right - there is always a risk that "people" might mis-read what I have written and assume anything. It happens all the time.

I have made it clear more than once that the taxes are based on the official set assessed value (except for the SBT, which is based on either the set value or the purchase price, whichever is higher), not the purchase price. I have also said that the SBT usually does not apply when purchasing a condo, as foreigners can own up to 49% of the condos in a block in their own names (although it does apply if condos are bought in a company name, for example when the 49% has already been sold); the Personal Income Tax may also not apply, for example if the condo is new and the developers are paying this as their own business tax.

I am not "playing with the figures to make (my) point seem more valid". The figures are correct and are "the truth".

If you are so confident I am wrong and so sure of yourself, how about some specifics such as which of the following figures are incorrect?

Specific Business Tax: 3.3%

Transfer Fee: 2%

Stamp Duty: 0.5%

Personal Income Tax: 2-3%

Maximum: 8.8% (3.3 + 2 + 0.5 + 3) of assessed value/purchase price

Minimum: 2.5% (2% + 0.5%) of assessed value


raig56,

maybe that is the best option!

If you are so confident I am wrong and so sure of yourself, how about some specifics such as which of the following figures are incorrect?

Don't need to. Intelligent readers will only have to look at your disingenuous "8.8% of assessed value/purchase price" to know what end you're speaking through. They are completely different things, as you admit elsewhere.

"Don't need to" as in "can't".

"Intelligent readers will only have to look at your disingenuous "8.8% of assessed value/purchase price" to know what end you're speaking through".

Disingenuous? I am amazed you can even spell it, as you obviously do not know what it means it as I presented all the information ("I have made it clear more than once that the taxes are based on the official set assessed value (except for the SBT, which is based on either the set value or the purchase price, whichever is higher), not the purchase price.")

"They are completely different things, as you admit elsewhere"

I did not "admit" it, I pointed it out to you as you were wrongly confusing the two.

I doubt if any "intelligent readers" are still interested in this thread - after all, they seem to be few and far between as bullshit by uninformed cretins, such as you, who come up short when challenged for facts seems to be the norm here.

أحْمَق خدا حاف

Yawn.