War with Cambodia

For those wanting background to the current Thai-Cambodia dispute The Economist (where else?) has an excellent story - http://www.economist.com/world/asia/dis ... d=11792512 (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11792512)

A brief review of Angkor history as presented in the LP guide leaves me where I last once was, a little bewildered about the period between the last Angkor King Jayavarma (circa 1320) and Angkor's rediscovery about 1900. Did it just get abandoned and overgrown by forest?

Did it just get abandoned and overgrown by forest?

No, it was sacked by the Thais in 1431 and then abandoned apart from occasional visits by wandering Theravadan Buddhist monks who used it as a Buddhist temple (which it still is).

[Brad the Impala]

Did it just get abandoned and overgrown by forest?

No, it was sacked by the Thais in 1431 and then abandoned apart from occasional visits by wandering Theravadan Buddhist monks who used it as a Buddhist temple (which it still is).

So yes, confirmation that it was abandoned and overgrown by the forest!

[fedssocr]

I believe parts of it were in use the whole time. When you speak of Angkor of course it is more than just the iconic Angkor Wat. It was a thriving city state of a million people at its height. There are numerous other temples and small cities around and near the main site.

But largely it was abandoned and overgrown by the jungle until the French "rediscovered" it and started removing the overgrowth. Of course there are still various temples and other sites still overgrown and yet to be rediscovered. Places like Beng Melea which is just starting to be cleared now and is largely a pile of stones in many places. Even Ta Prohm has enormous trees growing out of the ruins. Visit soon before the tourism finishes crushing Angkor Wat.

[ceejay]

Hi fedssocr
Have you been to Beng Melea recently? I plan on going there in November and will be very interested to hear what it is like now.

I shall be spnding a few days in Siem Reap to see the temple complex and would be interested to hear suggestions for any other "unrestored" temples. I shall be staying in Phnom Penh for a few days first, so could perhaps take these in on the journey up to Siem Reap?

Many thanks

I found this report well, nothing that we don't know already, all in all, it was just gave a history and a couple of suppositions. Although the Economist is supposedly meant to be a quality read - a lot of stuff is just plain boring. In this case, it may be useful to someone who didn't know the history.

Although the Eonommist is supposedly meant to be a quality read - a lot of stuff is just plain boring. Too many long words for you, WhiteDesire?

You should know that all of hummingturd's "wisdom" comes from one of three places: the Economist, Slate, or Stickman Weekly.

[fedssocr]

Hi fedssocr
Have you been to Beng Melea recently? I plan on going there in November and will be very interested to hear what it is like now.

I shall be spnding a few days in Siem Reap to see the temple complex and would be interested to hear suggestions for any other "unrestored" temples. I shall be staying in Phnom Penh for a few days first, so could perhaps take these in on the journey up to Siem Reap?

Many thanks

I was at Beng Melea last November. It is well off the beaten track. We combined the trip there with a trip up Phnom Kulen which I also recommend unless you have motion sickness issues. The ride up the mountain is over a very windy, bumpy road. But the waterfall is quite pretty and refreshing. I loved Beng Melea. They were in the process of clearing some of the jungle from the site, but it is a big collection of ruined buildings. There were lots of local kids there climbing all over the place. What a fun place to be a little kid (altho it is a bit dangerous)! I was wearing sandals and almost fell to my death (or at least to serious injury) off the moss-covered stone blocks. Wear good hiking shoes. You basically end up climbing on the roof of the buildings and corridors. It took a couple of hours to get from Siem Reap to Phnom Kulen and then once we left there it was another 45 minutes at least to Beng Melea. You can arrange for a nice picnic lunch at Phnom Kulen from the many vendors there. They have these little raised platforms with thatched roofs overhead near the waterfall. The people next to us were friends of our driver so they were sharing their huge amount of food and drinks with us as well. Not many Westerners there as I recall. Seemed to mainly be local Cambodians. The mountain is sacred and there's a temple on top with a big reclining Buddha. The river there has 1000 lingas carved into the rock riverbed. It's worth a look. The Khmer Rouge also had hideouts up there too.

I flew from Phnom Penh to Siem Reap so I am not sure about driving there along the way. It's a 35 minute flight and not too expensive. Get a good guide and they should be able to take you to see pretty much whatever you want. Besides the main Angkor Wat complex everyone visits the nearby sites within the Angkor archaeological park like the Bayon which I found extraordinarily photogenic and fascinating, Ta Prohm which is equally astounding, and several other ruins in close proximity. Be ready for a good deal of climbing up steep stairs. I think I did a 5 day itinerary in Siem Reap. Lots of the temples and ruins blend together and are of course quite similar. Also be prepared for lots of young children attempting to sell you all manner of things at every stop. If you do decide to buy something wait until just as you are getting in your car to leave otherwise you will be descended upon by everyone else.

I enjoyed Phnom Penh as well. It is changing fast, but there are some things to see. It is very poor though. Poverty like nowhere I had ever been before so that takes some getting used to. The traffic is also amazing. Lots of bikes and motorcycles. Everyone more or less ignores the few traffic signals. Miraculously though I didn't see any accidents. People seem go with the flow and it all works out. It's all moving pretty slow too which helps. In Phnom Penh the grand palace is definitely worth a look. The current king is gay. You can access the throne hall and the famous Silver Pagoda. The grounds are very pretty. The National Museum was not so great IMHO. The genocide museum is a must. Very sad and incomprehensible but you have to see it to help understand the current state of the country. There is a nice night market along the river. I never get to see many stars since I live in a pretty big city and there is too much light pollution but you can really see the stars in Cambodia.

I used Purple Dragon tours for my trip. I love the job they do putting everything together and their guides are really terrific. My guide in PP used to be a monk from age 8 until university. He's a fascinating guy who I enjoyed spending time with very much. He took me to visit his old monastery which was a treat. My guide in Siem Reap was equally excellent. I used them on both of my trips to SE Asia and am doing so again later this year to visit Thailand, Laos and Cambodia.

Here's a link to the photos from my trip last year including Phnom Kulen and Beng Melea.
http://picasaweb.google.com/GlennAuve/T ... mbodia2007 (http://picasaweb.google.com/GlennAuve/ThailandAndCambodia2007)

It is very poor though. Poverty like nowhere I had ever been before so that takes some getting used to.

Clearly you've never spent any time visiting the "impoverished" farmers of Northeastern Thailand.

[TrongpaiExpat]

I've read a few books on Angkor and then spent a week there. The best book is called "Angkor" and is available at Asia Books. No one has really been able to explain why so many temples were built all clustered around the same spot at different times. Were they only religious buildings or administrative too? What happen to the civilization? The last theory I read about was they simply expanded beyond the capacity of the land to support the population used up all the resources and declined.

Although the Eonommist is supposedly meant to be a quality read - a lot of stuff is just plain boring. Too many long words for you, WhiteDesire?

... and too many short words for you to understand!

[Beachlover]

You should know that all of hummingturd's "wisdom" comes from one of three places: the Economist, Slate, or Stickman Weekly.

ROFL

[ceejay]

Fedssocr
Thank you for the trouble you took with your post. It is very helpful to me - I will definitely add a stop to Phnom Kulen to the trip out to Beng Melea. Thanks also for the photographs - I can't wait to see it all for myself.

All the best

You should know that all of hummingturd's "wisdom" comes from one of three places: the Economist, Slate, or Stickman Weekly.ROFLThat is an outrageous slur on my character. I am an assiduous reader of Aunty's life's work, Nuclear Physics for the Under Fives

Did it just get abandoned and overgrown by forest?

No, it was sacked by the Thais in 1431

I hadn't known that! I only just suspected that after having read the book.

Did it just get abandoned and overgrown by forest?

No, it was sacked by the Thais in 1431

I hadn't known that! I only just suspected that after having read the book.

It was never actually "abandoned" totally, as in "deserted", although Angkor was abandoned as a city as fedssocr points out. Certainly talking to some of the predominantly Khmer Rouge locals some time before it became overgrown by tourists, they considered that its "discovery" by Henri Mouhot in 1861 was anything but news to the Khmer people.