Parallel lives, or something like that!

I don't want to drown Cedric's lovely "LOVE" discussion, so I am starting a new thread, which arose from Magical Khun Bwana calling me a "draft dodger."

Well, this is a tale of two people, so let me introduce number two: Ralph, a stern New England type, uptight Protestant, who was my high-school classmate. That means we have known each other practically forever. Ralph, a serious student, graduated first in our class. I came in third. So there could be some rivalry there.

Now for Ralph's tale. He was drafted into the Army and went to Vietnam. Naturally, he was not sent into combat, but shut up in some hot Saigon room doing some sort of intelligence work. The Army usually is smart enough to send "brains" to the "brains" department, and "brawn" to the "brawn" department. Ralph was definitely not brawn.

What made it easier for him to accept being drafted was his rock-ribbed conservatism and -- not a small deal -- the fact that he had not yet come out to himself at the time he went into the Army! He later told me that he did not really accept his own gay nature before the age of 28 -- and I've heard that story a number of times. He had his own, characteristic "Ralph" reaction to this realization: he went firmly into the closet and slammed the door, while he pursued an ever-more-eminent career in Thai business circles. (Yes, he moved to Thailand. He thought the Vietnamese were "hard-hearted" and loved the romantic nature of the Thai people.)

As a result, this closeted American gay man has spent his entire adult life living in Thailand. He loves the place, and he definitely takes boys off from time to time -- always the more discreet, upper-class places where tourists are rarely seen, and the boys have been "trained" to give customer satisfaction. In fact, I once took one of those boys off. He gave me a nice blow-job ("trained") but I have forgotten his name and never wanted to see him again.

So, what's the point, Henry?

Well, I now take a much longer and wiser view of things, and I realize that if I had simply gone to Vietnam with the Army, I would almost certainly have avoided combat because any officer who picked me for combat would be a lunatic: I am so near-sighted that I am blind without my glasses, I have no athletic ability, I am not "one of the guys." So I most likely would have wound up in logistics, or the secretarial pool, or even intelligence work. Just like my high-school classmate Ralph.

Except for one little thing. I had already spent two years in Tunisia, f*cking like a bunny-rabbit. I am absolutely sure that I would have tried to have as much fun in Vietnam -- unlike Ralph, still drinking beer and chatting up hot chicks.

The downside? I might have received a Dishonorable Discharge -- in those times, almost a professional death sentence.

The upside? I might have moved to Thailand way back in 1973 or so!

But Ralph would still have shunned me. I was out, and he was not -- and never would be. Besides, Ralph cares about his social eminence. I don't.

So, to sum up, you're probably lucky I didn't do that, or else you'd have this crusty old bastard saying "Young man, I have been living here for FORTY YEARS, and you don't know a dam thing!" :-)

... because?

[Smiles]

" ... And this belongs in the Thailand Forum ... because? ... "
Take a hike Herr Homintern.

This is a 'Thailand Story' with a William Burroughsian feel which definitely deserves to be here (especially enjoyed the Tunisian Connection), and frankly I'd like to hear a bit more about 'Ralph' and his long life in Thailand. And how he now relates to Henry (if at all). And Henry's just-under-the-surface nostalgia for what might-have-been in his own life.

In my own case ~ and vaguely related to this story ~ I'm now in an 8-year relationship with my old man which seems to be going as wonderfully as I probably could never have hoped for ... out of all expectation in fact. But it's somewhat sadly tinged by the fact that I'm already 61 years old, and sometimes idly contemplate how much better and longer-lived it might ("might, might, might!") have been had I found all I've found in Thailand 20 years ago, or 30.

So thanks Henry, for your story about Ralph and Thailand and making me think on this (it's a pleasant luxury, which goes nowhere of course ... but makes me smile anyway).

And Herr Homintern ~ in the Bambi's Mother fashion ~ perhaps once in a blue moon you could try not attempting to inject your need to illustrate yor wisdom into every post, every time. That might be a small blessing every so often. (That'll be the day)

Cheers ....

[Aunty]

But it's somewhat sadly tinged by the fact that I'm all ready 61 years old, and sometimes idly contemplate how much better and longer-lived it might ("might, might, might!") have been had I found all I've found in Thailand 20 years ago, or 30.

Well perhaps if you weren't such an insufferably smug individual, Smiles, you may well have done.

Henry, do you see anything of Ralph in Thailand now? Why is it do you suppose that he chose to live in Thailand and not the United States for most of his adult life?

It seems odd somehow that a closeted American homosexual would remain that way while living outside of the homophobic embrace of everyday US society. Does he hold strong religious views perhaps?

No, I don't see anything of Ralph these days. He's still very much in the closet, and so he can't afford to have a friend like me. (At the Royal Squash Club, the fogies might be muttering, "Have you noticed that Ralph has been going about with sodomites recently?" :-) )

Ralph's preference for living in Thailand is not at all mysterious. When he's not being closeted to all of his high-class friends, Ralph enjoys sex, and he knows very well that he can get a lot more of it in Thailand -- and get it more discreetly. He is not (so far as I can tell) Christian at all, being much more given to a silly jumble of New Age mystical beliefs, along with an off/on attitude towards Buddhism.

Well, one more anecdote may make his character clearer. It was our very last dinner together, in Chiang Mai. Ralph had just retired, and was looking forward to his new position with the UN in China (Ralph was a lifelong lover of China and things Chinese). And he complained that his Thai lover had "dumped" him. Then he recalled a gypsy fortune-teller who told him, in his teens, that he would have great business success but little romantic success. He sighed into his plate with self-pity. "She was right!"

I hardly dared to point out to him that HE was dumping his lover in favor of China. His lover (a Thai policeman) was perfectly willing to live with him in Thailand or in Australia, but couldn't quite find a reason to take up semi-permanent residence in China -- and thus had visa problems. Ralph just grabbed his "China opportunity" with both hands and abandoned his lover, choking with self-pity all the while.

Why Ralph stayed put in the closet baffles me too, Aunty. Perhaps he was even afraid of it getting back to his mother in California?! Perhaps he just learned his homophobic lessons too well?

I have enough problems trying to understand myself!! :-)

[Diec]

This story reminds me of my friend Barny. When Barny was a young lad he had the bad luck to encounter a group of thugs. These thugs had nothing but time on their hands and a stiff penis in their pants. Barny struggled and struggled but to no avail...yes, they gang raped him with such force and energy it caused him to become gay.

Barny was an American through and through. He loved his country and wanted to serve. Barny enlisted in the Navy, he was a Navy Seal and could snap your neck before you even knew it was snapped. Barny never told the people that be that he was a fag to get out of doing service, he was proud. When Barny's ship arrived in Pattaya he went ashore. Barny somehow managed to wander into a homosexual bar. Barny never admitted to being a homosexual, all he knew was that he liked penis up his butt. This all changed when he met Pik.

Pik had just turned 18 a few days before he started to work in the bar. Pik had never been with a farang before. When Barny's eyes first laid his sight on Pik he was smitten. Barny and Pik hit it off like surf and turf. Barny wanted to keep the relationship low key but Pik would not have any of that. Pik wanted to shout their love from the rooftops. Eventually Barny understood the deep love Pik had for him and decided he would show his love for Pik publicly. They would hold hands as they skipped down the street, make the monks smile as they kissed each other in front of them, basically just enjoying each others company.

Alas, it was time for Barny to leave. Barny had learned much from Pik, he learned to be a proud homosexual. Barny boarded his ship and immediately informed the crew that yes indeed he was a homosexual. In Barny's mind he was ready to walk the plank. However when Barny told his crew that he was a homosexual, everyone smiled. You see, everyone knew about Barny, they never let on because they loved Barny for who he was. The entire ship vowed to never give away Barny's secret, and to this day have not.

Moral of the story is that you can be a homosexual and still serve in the military. Unlike some.

Take a hike Herr Homintern.Point taken. By the time I'd reached the end of the third paragraph I'd assumed it was one of Henry Cate's interminable, pointless posts. I must learn to suffer fools more gladly, I must learn to suffer fools more gladly ...

[Khor tose]

Listen almost all the bad things I dislike about the Christian faith were introduced by Paul. So anything that comes from him is suspicious in my mind. Why should the wise suffer fools gladly just to prove they are wise. A fool can learn. Every wise man was a fool at one time. Wise does not mean smart it means that you have acquired knowledge. You Homi are a teacher of fools. To be smug is to be more of a fool then to correct the foolish. To hell with Paul, hang in there Homi

Wisdom---The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
Common sense; good judgment: The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge: Wise teachings of the ancient sages.
A wise outlook, plan, or course of action.

PS My support of Homi has nothing to do with Henry's article. I enjoyed the story, and agree it does belong in this forum.

Listen almost all the bad things I dislike about the Christian faith were introduced by Paul.Thanks but I start from the view that all the things I dislike about the Christian faith (and every other religion, Thai Buddhism included) begin with the presumption that men somehow have a relationship with a supernatural being and owe moral imperatives to such a being that supersede any relationship with mankind. It's that perception that has allowed adherents of any and all religions to perpetrate the most unspeakable crimes against humanity, in the name of that "higher good". I'm with Gautama who responded to a question about the existence of a god or gods as "mere speculation, something that can never be proved; those who concern themselves with such speculation are just adding to their sense of dissatisfaction" (dukha - what some call suffering). Hence my use of the phrase "the Axis of Evil" when writing especially about Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And of course you get fools like Wesley wittering on about how God has decided to make them gay, so being gay must be OK. Here endeth today's sermon

[catawampuscat]

[quote="Aunty"][quote="Smiles"]

Well perhaps if you weren't such an insufferably smug individual, Smiles, you may well have done.

Smiles, don't take Aunty's comments seriously. It is just his way of being ironic. It isn't irony but aunty has his own
dictionary for his use in his endless battle against his nemesis. I have come to agree with homi about aunty's tourette syndome
issues.
I also agree 100% with smiles request of homi not to interject his irritating and side-tracking jibes and allow a thread to unfold,
especially when the topic/subject is fresh and not just the same old shit rehashed for the thousandth time.. in my humble opinion anyway. :cat:

[Aunty]

Well perhaps if you weren't such an insufferably smug individual, Smiles, you may well have done.

Smiles, don't take Aunty's comments seriously. It is just his way of being ironic. It isn't irony but aunty has his own
dictionary for his use in his endless battle against his nemesis. I have come to agree with homi about aunty's tourette syndome
issues.
I also agree 100% with smiles request of homi not to interject his irritating and side-tracking jibes and allow a thread to unfold,
especially when the topic/subject is fresh and not just the same old shit rehashed for the thousandth time.. in my humble opinion anyway. :cat:

Perhaps in future, Catty, rather than lecturing others as you so often do, you would do us all a favour and take your own advice? And by the way, you owe me an apology.

[Khor tose]

As a devout humanist I can only add a big "AMEN" to Homi's sermon.

This story reminds me of my friend Barny. When Barny was a young lad he had the bad luck to encounter a group of thugs. These thugs had nothing but time on their hands and a stiff penis in their pants. Barny struggled and struggled but to no avail...yes, they gang raped him with such force and energy it caused him to become gay.

Barny was an American through and through. He loved his country and wanted to serve. Barny enlisted in the Navy, he was a Navy Seal and could snap your neck before you even knew it was snapped. Barny never told the people that be that he was a fag to get out of doing service, he was proud. When Barny's ship arrived in Pattaya he went ashore. Barny somehow managed to wander into a homosexual bar. Barny never admitted to being a homosexual, all he knew was that he liked penis up his butt. This all changed when he met Pik.

Pik had just turned 18 a few days before he started to work in the bar. Pik had never been with a farang before. When Barny's eyes first laid his sight on Pik he was smitten. Barny and Pik hit it off like surf and turf. Barny wanted to keep the relationship low key but Pik would not have any of that. Pik wanted to shout their love from the rooftops. Eventually Barny understood the deep love Pik had for him and decided he would show his love for Pik publicly. They would hold hands as they skipped down the street, make the monks smile as they kissed each other in front of them, basically just enjoying each others company.

Alas, it was time for Barny to leave. Barny had learned much from Pik, he learned to be a proud homosexual. Barny boarded his ship and immediately informed the crew that yes indeed he was a homosexual. In Barny's mind he was ready to walk the plank. However when Barny told his crew that he was a homosexual, everyone smiled. You see, everyone knew about Barny, they never let on because they loved Barny for who he was. The entire ship vowed to never give away Barny's secret, and to this day have not.

Moral of the story is that you can be a homosexual and still serve in the military. Unlike some.

This strikes me as a very unimaginative venture into total fiction. Especially the bit about holding hands as they skipped down the street. All Thai boys do that, right? And kiss their farang lovers in front of "the monks?"

You'd best go back to accounting, or whatever you normally do for a living.

[Diec]

Barny never went quivering to the military that he was a homosexual and therefore could not serve. Unlike you, who chose to take it up the butt by the enemy. I'm sure your parents are proud of you!!

Barny never went quivering to the military that he was a homosexual and therefore could not serve. Unlike you, who chose to take it up the butt by the enemy. I'm sure your parents are proud of you!!

You made up an absurd story instead of saying what you meant. Now you have said what you meant to say, and we can stop thinking about "your friend Barmy" and "his boyfriend Prik" and all the rest of that nonsense.

Anyway, my parents are dead and I have no idea what gave you the idea that "I took it up the butt by the enemy," unless it was Khun Magic Bwana's equally stupid posting.

What I find VAGUELY interesting about your rant is the idea that homophobes are always right. If the homophobes in the U.S. actually go to the trouble of passing a law making it a crime for gay men to serve in the military, then, by your analysis, we should go right ahead and ignore that law, risk a dishonorable discharge (and let the homophobes win again) -- or obey the law, and risk prosecution at the hands of some members of what we laughingly call "the gay community."

Anyway, you've had your say, and that's really great. However, I don't feel obliged to listen to any more of your cr*p.

Barny never went quivering to the military that he was a homosexual and therefore could not serve. Unlike you, who chose to take it up the butt by the enemy. I'm sure your parents are proud of you!!

Er what a nasty piece of work. Is this not material to get one removed entirely from the forum. I should hope so.

There was the question of Smiles, I've always liked him, I like older men they are comforting and I look to them for guidance. When I heard he was moving to Thailand I've had my fingers crossed ever since in the hope that everything turns out well. Well Smiles seems it has and I am delighted.

I wish you wouldn't have regrets about what could've been. Being young is much harder, life is so serious and so painful, love and sex, we never know what we want. Sometimes all I want is to turn fifty (or in your case 79) and to wag my finger at my self now and say I told you so. Come carry on, I love it.

Cedric wrote:


Being young is much harder, life is so serious and so painful, love and sex, we never know what we want. Sometimes all I want is to turn fifty (or in your case 79) and to wag my finger at my self now and say I told you so. Come carry on, I love it.

This really resonates with me. I was brought up in the youth-worship culture of America, and was constantly meeting people who would say silly things such as: "If you haven't got a lover by the age of 25, you might as well kill yourself because you never will." The whole gay culture was and is built around ignoring men over 30 (or over 40).

The biggest surprise of my life has been discovering that it only gets better as I get older. As Cedric points out, the twenties can be a pretty desperate time, as you struggle to find out where you work and where you fit in socially. By the age of 30-35, those points are pretty much settled, and you are also in your prime. (As Ibn Khaldoun remarked, "From birth through the age of 30, a man generally grows in strength and capability. From 30 to 40, he is at his peak. And after 40, a decline sets in.")

The biggest surprise for me has been serenity. When I was younger, I used to fear for my sanity from time to time..."Can I take this? Can I really DEAL with it??" And then, somewhere around the age of fifty, the answer was apparent: "Yes, I can deal with it."

Now, in my sixties, I'm having more fun than ever. And I don't mean perpetual sex, I mean enjoying the companionship of really wonderful young guys, and being in a position to help them get started in life. After all, there does come a time when life stops being "all about you," and should shift focus to the next generation.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

... because?

what a daft codger you are.

[Smiles]

" ... There was the question of Smiles, I've always liked him, I like older men they are comforting and I look to them for guidance. When I heard he was moving to Thailand I've had my fingers crossed ever since in the hope that everything turns out well. Well Smiles seems it has and I am delighted ... "
OK OK ... forget the 'ignore' thing, I'll endure the elitism for nice small asides like the one above. Only human.

I have indeed found happiness and comfortable love in Thailand.
Now it's even better with the much longer stays I can make each year (i.e. 7-8 months at a time, rather than weeks). The Man (talked about in soft tones over the last 8 years) is now 41 (in August). Such an age is rather unheard of here on this Board, but in fact it's the very age (and accompanying character) which makes my little world as fullfilling as it is at this point in my life . . . and I would thoroughly recommend to all on this board that trying to make a go of it with a mature and self-aware Thai man is NOT an impossible quest.
As someone wisely mentioned on another thread: you just have to bump into (for it's often as blindly serendipitous as that) the right guy!.
I count myself very lucky that I did ~ bump that is ~ way back in year 2000.

Cheers ...

[Diec]

Barny never went quivering to the military that he was a homosexual and therefore could not serve. Unlike you, who chose to take it up the butt by the enemy. I'm sure your parents are proud of you!!

Er what a nasty piece of work. Is this not material to get one removed entirely from the forum. I should hope so.(/quote)

What a tool.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"Such an age is rather unheard of here on this Board, but in fact it's the very age (and accompanying character) which makes my little world as fullfilling as it is at this point in my life . . . and I would thoroughly recommend to all on this board that trying to make a go of it with a mature and self-aware Thai man is NOT an impossible quest. "

only because no-one will admit to it !!

age is never a problem for me..I don't care who knows my age and I'm happy to admit to it..39 this year..always been consistent..39 every year on the same day and same month.

it's all relative isn't it..by the time you are 60 a 30 year old looks appetizingly young !!

another great plus..young people from the age of about 16 to 24 cannot work out how old people are..they can't tell the difference between someone from 25 to 45 !! ( especially with good lighting)