More evidence gays are born gay

[cottmann]

The BBC is reporting on a Swedish study at the Karolinska Institute that compared the size of the brain's halves in 90 adults. According to the website, gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men, and that there were significant differences in the structure of the amygdala between gay and straight men. One conclusion of the study, according to a UK scientist. was that this is evidence sexual orientation is set in the womb. Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, is quoted as saying that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development: "As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay."

How long will it take the fundies to dispute this finding and conclusion, do you reckon?

Since my previous post in this topic was removed by someone obviously with no sense of humor, I will rephrase it in a completely dry and monotonous way:

Could not brain configuration not be a result, rather than a cause? When you measure the brains of (presumably) adults, does that necessarily prove that they were born that way?

[Wesley]

The courts are way ahead of the voters in this respect, Considering, Canada has only a 5% Christan base says a lot. Although they are more open they still have their hangups so it is not just the fundies that have a problem. The same for Ireland which has a relative small Christan base yet hold to a lot of the fundamental base. I reckon that the problem is not religious as much as heterosexuals may be afraid of us or may feel they are better than us since they are the majority, it may not be Christians are making the decisions about this, it may very well be the heterosexual way of thought that is hurting us. So if we are born that way or choose. It probably will not affect the way heterosexuals feel about gay life styles. We don't help when we interrupt the Catholic mass with mockery of the Eucharist.

So, I am saying it may not help a lot to blame it on the Christan fundies as you say. it may be more a general prejudice of the predominant heterosexual thought. As Much as I am turned off to oral sex with a woman they may be just as turned off to oral sex with a guy. It may not be religious indoctrination at all. It may be just plain old ignorance.

Wesley

Since my previous post in this topic was removed by someone obviously with no sense of humor, I will rephrase it in a completely dry and monotonous way:

Could not brain configuration not be a result, rather than a cause? When you measure the brains of (presumably) adults, does that necessarily prove that they were born that way?

Avery reasonable point. I can't imagine why it was deleted first time round. If they started observing brain types at birth now, we are still 20 years at least away from knowing.

[cottmann]

....... The same for Ireland which has a relative small Christan base yet hold to a lot of the fundamental base. ....Wesley

The 2006 Census showed that the population of the Republic was just over 4 million, of whom about 94% reported that they were Roman Catholic (or, in the case of 540 persons, lapsed Catholic), and just under 4% were Protestant. I'm not sure I would call that a "small Christian base." One of the reasons I originally joined the Irish diaspora was the influence of the Catholic Church which, at that time, had a constitutionally-recognized "special position" which, thankfully was later removed.



. So, I am saying it may not help a lot to blame it on the Christan fundies as you say. ...Wesley

I didn't. Chao Na didn't. I wrote: "How long will it take the fundies to dispute this finding and conclusion, do you reckon?" I didn't say anything about Christians.

[Wesley]

Catholics and fundies are two separate deals, certainly there are lots of catholics but the homo bashing evangelicals and fundies as they say represent a small margin of the countries Christian population. In other words there are no Jerry Farwells to blame it all on. So the evangelical community is small. Relatively no shouting Pentecostals and almost as few Calvinist or Armenians in doctrine. Catholicism is nothing more than ritual and tradition. You get sprinkled and live as you please the rest of the week. So, I did not count Catholicism either in Canada or Ireland.

Wesley

[Wesley]

I would assume they will begin as soon as today since their is no sense of rationalism or science built into their beliefs. They simply hate people different than themselves no matter who they are.

Wesley

[Bob]

Catholicism is nothing more than ritual and tradition. You get sprinkled and live as you please the rest of the week. So, I did not count Catholicism either in Canada or Ireland.
Wesley

Other than being off topic, Wes, the statements reflect a little ignorance. Approximately 33% of the world considers themselves as christians and, of that figure, slightly more than half (nearly a billion people) claim to be catholics. I was raised a catholic although I no longer practice it and your characterization of what they teach is erroneous (besides being insulting to about a fifth of the world's population).

[Wesley]

I am saying, if you ask most Americans they will say they are Christian, they may never go to Church or get involved in Church but, they say they are a Christian. Catholics are no different. They say one thing and live another. I have Catholics that work with me. Good people and traditionally the original church all the way back to St Peter. Many people are converting from evangelicalism to Catholicism. What I am saying is any one can say they are a Christian or a catholic of an evangelical. If they do not follow the teachings of Christ but only profess they are a part of a group of people does not make them Christian or Catholic or evangelical. The Neo-orthodoxy theologians like Bonheoffer said true Christianity is not a religion at all but, a way of Life. Many confess tey are, few really are. There are good Muslims, in Kyrgyzstan the Soviets, for instance took Islam out of the Kyrgyz, when the Soviet Union fell; they all of a sudden became Muslims again. Truthfully almost none were true Muslims the Soviets had pulled many of them into atheism. No matter, they all will say they are Muslim and go through the rituals of being one. No one goes to the mosque, no one prays to Allah, but they are a Muslim if asked. Same for most Americans most will say they are but they never actively participate. It is easy to say you are and if you want to believe you are that is fine. However, if you are going to say you are then follow the tenets of your faith no matter what you claim to be. To be a Christian is to be Christ like, how many do you know that are? Either evangelical or Catholic or Russian orthodox. They call evangelicals a cult, the evangelicalsтАЩ call them lost in legalism and traditionalism. I am not sure any are right but if it makes you feel better believe what you like. Personally I believe it is a way of life and not a religion at all in its truest form.

Wesley

[Bob]

Catholics are no different. They say one thing and live another.


No big deal and I'm sure you know some that "say one thing and live another." I don't think you have a clue whether most catholics are like that. Nice of you to presume how all/most of them behave.

The majority of Canadians identify as Christian, whether that be Catholic or the various sects of Protestantism. Where you get this figure of 5% is a complete mystery. You say "they say they are a Christian. Catholics are no different" implying that Christians and Catholics are some how different. Last time I checked Catholics were considered to be Christians. Clearly you haven't a frigging clue what you are talking about.

Catholicism is nothing more than ritual and tradition.

What Bollocks! The rat is rabidly homophobic and the whole set-up reeks of misogyny.

[Wesley]

All you guys in fact may be right, I suppose like any religious thing it is totally subjective, Since no one knows the heart of man, I was presumptuous to assume all or one group is or is not Guilty. My supposition was that religious fundamentalism promotes the idea that gays are going to hell, not the individual. It totally depends on personal options , my premise was that the Jerry Farwells of the Christian faith, be it Catholic or Protestant are foolish to assume they can categorically say any one is going to hell based on their sexual orientation. And that religion is responsible not the individual of any group. So you were right and I was wrong in my assumptions in as much as I repeated things I have heard not investigated personally. So you may very well be Correct in that I have no idea what I am talking about. My point is back to the original post homophobia can come from any group, Christians and non Christians alike may be prejudiced either by their religion or the fact that they personally are turned off at the thought of gay sex. So the New California court ruling may be over turned by the voters who may or may not come from specific groups. If I offended any group please accept my apologies.

Wesley

To be a Christian is to be Christ like

Hardly. To be a Christian is to believe in Christ, no more and no less.

[Wesley]

Love God and love your neighbor as yourself and you have fulfilled the law and the prophets,so it seems to be that simple.

Wes

[Bob]

Wes, you're right that there are some fundamentalist wackos out there. Fortunately, they are a small minority; unfortunately, they get disproprotionate press coverage (which makes one thinks there are millions of them - and there aren't). For example only, Pat Robertson is as much mentally ill in my opinion* as just plain homophobic, racist, etc.

[*Pat Robertson periodically tells us he's had direct discussions with God. Well, Pat ol' buddy, God sends email to me and he told me that you are fucking nuttier than a fruitcake and wishes he could have a do-over on you....hahaha]

[gumblebee]

Church provides hope of faithful spouses (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826615.200-church-provides-hope-of-faithful-spouses.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news8_head_mg19826615.200)

and

Intelligence is a predictor of religious scepticism (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381&c=2)

[Wesley]

I am a bit nutty, I kinda like that, I have an excuse for my opinions I'm crazy, my ,my the rest seem to think they are okay. Now that is scary.

Actually, I don't think I have to throw my beliefs out the window because I am gay, I think God Made me this way and I am happy. Being religious doesn't mean you have automatically thrown you brains out the window. I don't push what I believe on others. I just believe in my fellow man, I am more Humanist than anything. But, if along the way I happen to believe there is a God, I don't think that hurts. We or most of the word believes in some kind of God and so do I. I do not believe I have a monopoly on that issue and I have great respect for Buddhism and Taoist simply I think anything in moderation can be good. It's the fundamentalist and the haters of God and those that do believe in him I feel are on the edge. There has to be a place of Moderation where I can allow them to be who and what they are with out malice or hatred. If they are atheist agnostic or just nothing. I respect that as their right to be who and what they are. I would hope people can allow me to do the same. Religion has come a long Way since I was a kid. With any luck maybe in my life time tolerance for all will come. If not I am content to simply piddle along with what I do. I may be wrong about it all, but if I am right, I have lost nothing.

Wes

First you say "But, if along the way I happen to believe there is a God, I don't think that hurts." but then go on to say "and those that do believe in him I feel are on the edge" So which is it? Or in your attempt to become the Rodney King of theology you are trying to argue both sides of the debate at the same time?

[dave_tf-old]

What Wesley said was that 'those that hate God and those that believe in him' share the edge with the fundamentalists--in other words, people who hate god and also hate those who believe in him. On that score, I mostly agree with him.

[Wesley]

It was Dietrich Bonhoeffer who said he believed in religionless Christianity, and that Christianity in its truest form is not a religion, he went on to say, as well as the Apostle Paul, that the world hates God because of our religion. Its not our faith they hate its the religion they hate. Any one has the right to believe. No one has the right to tell you how to believe. Once religion comes in then you are back under the law of man which is where most religious leaders want you. It give them power and put you under their law. So if I can get Christ with out all the religion then great. If not, I will believe in him by myself. So, if any region exist it is to control, Christ said he came for the opposite which was to set you free from the laws of men and leave you with grace. grace has no conditions only that you believe. It is man the church Islam and all religions that want to control every aspect of your life. If you throw all that off you get the essence of what Bonhoeffer was talking about.

Wesley

The BBC is reporting on a Swedish study at the Karolinska Institute that compared the size of the brain's halves in 90 adults. According to the website, gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men, and that there were significant differences in the structure of the amygdala between gay and straight men. One conclusion of the study, according to a UK scientist. was that this is evidence sexual orientation is set in the womb. Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, is quoted as saying that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development: "As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay."

How long will it take the fundies to dispute this finding and conclusion, do you reckon?

I am certain it is in foetal development. Gays, straights and paeds are all born with their sexual orientation.

The current theory is that the X chromosome attacks the male Y chromosome. The degree of damage it causes to development, if any, determines sexual orientation. One fact reinforces this. Later born boys are more likely to be gay. There is some residual in the womb causing this. That's why talk of a gay gene is pie in the sky.

This is hardly the last word on the matter. For instance it does nothing to explain lesbianism. But it reinforces the idea that the whole thing is genetic.

Actually, I don't think I have to throw my beliefs out the window because I am gay, I think God Made me this way and I am happy. I guess if you were born blind and deaf you'd be equally grateful to God?

[cottmann]

Love God and love your neighbor as yourself and you have fulfilled the law and the prophets,so it seems to be that simple. Wes

I tried loving my neighbor - who was really cute - as myself, and the fundies objected!!

I also admit to coveting my neighbor's manservant and his ass, but his ox, his maidservant, etc., did nothing for me.

Hmmm. An ox would certainly present a challenge.

This is hardly the last word on the matter.

Sadly not ...

[quote="Dek Wat":2rhvhgbw]This is hardly the last word on the matter.

Sadly not ...[/quote:2rhvhgbw]

True, but things are a little better. At least now the weapons are available to find answers. As always, these matters have to filter through to the community. That's a slow process.

I do not love my neighbor as much as I love myself.

Period.

Otherwise, I would be saving up my dollars and satang to buy him a new car, and I would be paying the tuition costs for his boyfriend.

So the whole thing crashes to the ground, but it is SAVED by a pack of hypocrites who claim that they do in fact love their neighbors just as much as themselves. "Here--here are my life savings: help yourself! Oh, and here is my boyfriend: fuck him as often as you like! And here is my new car, and my motorcycle! Is there anything else you'd like??"

Doesn't this sound a bit mental to you?

...I would be paying the tuition costs for his boyfriend.

With your grasp of reality you very probably are.