Surprising letter in Pattaya Mail, 13 June 2008

[Marsilius]

I could not believe that the following letter has appeared in the Pattaya Mail (or, at least, in the on-line edition).

It should certainly stir up a hornets' nest!

Dear Sir;
Having lived and worked in Thailand for many years prior to my retirement I make an effort to keep up with events by reading the Thai press and the English language Thai press on-line. Also friends keep me informed of the status quo in the country.
I am writing to express my concern about the fact that your journal carries detrimental and negative stories on a nearly weekly basis about a tiny minority of farangs, namely those who love adolescent boys.
As you are no doubt aware, Asian culture and Buddhist culture in particular reveres men who look after the welfare of young people, especially boys. They are seen as putting wayward youth on the path of acceptance and tolerance. A scant knowledge of Thai classical literature, documents these traits. Needless to say, the role of monks in boysтАЩ upbringing is legendary. The fact that this vindictive campaign is only aimed at farangs speaks volumes. As far as I have been able to ascertain no Thai has been in trouble for consensual relationships with a boy.
Until quite recent times there was no such concept in law in Thailand (or elsewhere in South-East Asia, except for laws left over from colonial times), of an age of consent. But we are now in the quite ridiculous situation where the age of consent in Thailand is higher than the average in Western nations.
As we all know it is of course the dominance of Western NGOs in developing countries forcing Judeo-Christian values on foreign cultures which has resulted in this very sad state of affairs. Where there was love and harmony, in the space of a few short years, due to the introduction of Westernisation, there is now exploitation and violence. Young people and their adult friends are now no less than criminals. The mafia and corruption are the name of the game these days.
Boy lovers are now being violently blackmailed, even held hostage until large sums of money are handed over, and their captors safe in the knowledge the farang will not complain to the authorities for fear of prosecution in Thailand or back home. Children and young people are being forced into having relationships with farangs by ruthless gangs in order to satisfy these criminal activities. This complete volte-face in the space of a few short years has been brought about by the busybody do-gooders of the west.
I feel your newspaper along with others really ought to be ashamed of yourselves by giving publicity to these Western pressure groups. Instead you should be highlighting the damage they are causing to the fabric of life in Thailand and how the East has nothing to learn from Westerners on social mores. (One only has to compare the behaviour of Western youth to its counterpart in the East). You should be celebrating the difference of Thai culture vis-├а-vis the West and bring out its strengths of tolerance, social harmony and acceptance. That, no doubt, is after all why you like living in Thailand!
Be brave, fight for the truth!
Yours faithfully,
A. Doctor
England

PS On the same page was another letter, reprinted below. I guess that's what's meant by "balanced coverage"!

Editor;
I have been visiting Thailand (every 6 months) for the last 8 years. ItтАЩs a beautiful country and the Thai people are fantastic! I would like to give a тАЬbig thank youтАЭ to the Thai police and everyone else involved with the arrest of all the foreign pedophiles (Pattaya Mail, 30th May-5 June). ThatтАЩs the тАЬonly problemтАЭ I have noticed in Pattaya: too many foreign pedophiles, walking along Beach Road and hanging out in local malls, looking for kids.
Please continue the crackdown on these sick perverts and hopefully all of them will receive a sentence of at least 30, 40 or 50 years in prison.
A very special тАЬthank youтАЭ to Ms Mariel Schaltz, keep up the good work.
Thank you,
J. Cole
USA

Good God, my tax dollars at work.:whdat:


Well, the effort to "Change Asia" in Puritan America seems to be bipartisan. Everyone's current hero, Hillary, fired the first shots at Japan, and other Asian countries.

Excuse me while I puke. There are a lot of good things about America, but Moralizing is not one of them. :angel13:


Americans would rather moralize than fuck. That is, at least, the public stance, until they get caught.

By the way, a very well-written note about two ambitious sisters who preyed on the Radical Christian Left -- and anyone else. They got in with Vanderbilt, then one of the richest men in America.

"It was a match. Vanderbilt loved sex, and dripped money. They loved money, and dripped sex."

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

absolutely amazing !!! and spot on.

But I notice he writes from the safety of the UK and -he's a doctor so trust him.

About time we were able to speak of the extraordinary double standards being foisted upon Thailand by interfering busy bodies from the West. He also points out rightly the extraordinary absence of any comment about the numerous Asians who are involved in illicit child sex.

Capturing the baddies would be OK ..except for one thing. Where do those kids go after they are pictured in the media with the alleged offendor ?..straight out the back door onto the streets. NGO's should be working hell bent on preventing them ever having to hit the streets in the first place ( some very good ones do but the majority don't)

Isn't foisting American homophobia on other countries wrong, period? (It seems like a single standard to me, but let that pass...)

Of course, it's not JUST American homophobia. Have you read about the first encounter of Portuguese missionaries with the Isle of Japan? They thought everything was just ducky, except for the HORRIBLE PREVALENCE OF SODOMY.

Well, then, weren't the Japanese justified in giving them the old heave-ho? And (as I recall) killing the hard-core remnants?

[Marsilius]

...and - he's a doctor so trust him.

Well, perhaps... or perhaps not.

After all, he signs himself "A. Doctor" with a full stop after the "A" - so I guess he could just as well be Alan Doctor or Alfred Doctor or whatever!!!

Isn't foisting American homophobia on other countries wrong, period? (It seems like a single standard to me, but let that pass...)

Of course, it's not JUST American homophobia. Have you read about the first encounter of Portuguese missionaries with the Isle of Japan? They thought everything was just ducky, except for the HORRIBLE PREVALENCE OF SODOMY.

Well, then, weren't the Japanese justified in giving them the old heave-ho? And (as I recall) killing the hard-core remnants?

homophobia??????? I thought the thread was about paedophilia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

very few gay men molest children

I'm an American, and I'd rather fuck. But not young boys.

Of course there's a double standard, they're not looking for Thai men who are molesting little boys (or girls). They're looking for the tourist dollars and the opportunity to humiliate the farangs. Can you imagine an older Asian man coming to the States (or Europe) and getting caught in the company of three or four naked young boys? In Texas? He'd be on death-row before you could say "But, officer, I was only giving them a bath."

Wherever it happens, it's wrong, wrong, wrong . . . and it's happening somewhere tonight.

[dave_tf-old]

Dear Pattaya Mail.

I have just read the letter from a J. Cole from the US. I am appalled at his/her suggestion that these vile criminals should recieve sentences of 30, 40 or 50 years! I feel a sentence of 51 years is called for, not some mamby-pamby slap on the wrist as suggested by this obviously ultra-liberal idiot.

I would be willing to go as high as 52 years, but would draw the line at 53 years. I am a christian, after all.

Insincerely,

Holier than J. Cole

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

who the hell is Ms Mariel Schaltz ??? :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

"Editor;
I have been visiting Thailand (every 6 months) for the last 8 years. "

ah yes..another one who comes to play "golf". :cheers:

[jinks]

Leaving this one for a while, it's getting close to breaking the guidelines.

Be careful or it will disappear without further warning.

[Irish1972]

Did I imagine it or did you not ride off into the sunset as a moderator?

Not being smart just asking the question are you back full time?

[jinks]

Back part time, only the parts that are sadly needed :)

I've just read A Doctor's letter and had to reply.

I am certain there are two reasons for the crackdown on ferrangs and teenage boys in Pattaya. The first is the massive amount of money police gain from demanding and usually obtaining money to drop the case.

The second is the intense financial pressure put on the Thais by the EU and the USA to be seen to be doing something.

Thailand has NOTHING to learn from Western culture. Buddha forbid, the West has much to learn from the Thais. The imposition of Western values here is disgusting. Two things the Thais value very highly are: caring for children and friendship.

Thailand is so lucky that Western colonialism never came to Thailand. It seems it has now. And that's everyone's loss.

After all, he signs himself "A. Doctor" with a full stop after the "A" - so I guess he could just as well be Alan Doctor or Alfred Doctor or whatever!!!He could be our long-lost poster A Doctor Writes

The ongoing American venture into international age-of-consent laws has some very strange items about it.

For one thing, the actual American age of consent varies a lot, mostly between the ages of 15 and 18. After some busybodies in the American Congress had finished blowing their noses, the USA was burdened with the idea that child porno was any porno involving anyone under the age of 18. This was, apparently, connected with two wildly disparate things: first, an amendment to the US Constitution that anyone 18+ could vote (therefore reinforcing the idea that boys who are 18 and over are adult, and all other boys are children) and, second, the legalization of homosexuality which is I think still underway in the US. The idea of banning laws against "consenting adults" having sex was quite good, but it inflamed the religious right into expanding the concept of "adult" as far as it possibly could.

And of course, we have to add the curious American idea that people who are in love with one another must be close matches in SES (Socio-Economic Status) and age.

You may not care about my opinion, but here it is: "There is no benefit to be had from screwing around with Mother Nature." It is a matter of common observation that something important happens to boys around the age of 14 to 16. It's called puberty. What happens to boys between the ages of 17 and 18? Nothing at all, in the biological sense. However, they do tend to become high-school graduates around that time.

It is also a matter of common observation that gay boys begin to find and participate in the gay scene around the age of 16-17. They're horny. And a huge number do it earlier, over the Internet.

And one more fact: it is my belief that (in Thailand) the age of consent is fifteen, for boys who are "emancipated." Boys who are still at home, and being zealously watched by middle-class families, may have to wait a bit longer. But the Thai 18yo age limit applies to acts of prostitution only. Of course, if a cute 17yo is making fun-fun with a 60yo man, there is a suspicion of prostitution. :-0

But frankly, if we look around the world and all the cultures we know, there aren't very many who would criminalize sex with a 16yo boy while permitting it with an 18yo boy. In America, Mark Foley was hammered by the press and forced to resign, even though all he was doing was trying to have cybersex with a hot Congressional page way over the age of consent. He had violated that other American taboo, referred to above ("people who are in love with one another must be close matches in SES (Socio-Economic Status) and age").

Hey, if they made me King Of The World, I would require teenage boys to exercise in the nude, and have older male lovers! :-)

Oh, that's been tried, you say?

Yeah, and it only lasted a thousand years.

The AoC is a strange notion. What shits me is that no-one it seems has ever considered that it just might be different to boys than girls. My guess is that it was created to protect girls.

The actual number - the age - has never been researched. Which is why this varies so dramatically from country to country. In other words, it's an arbitrary thing determined by current social thinking.

It's been as low as 10. Some sexless clowns want it to be 25.

Some countries have it such that it's higher if the other person is in a caring situation like being a teacher.
e.g. Australia where it's 16 or 18.

As far as I can work out, the situation in Thailand is confusing. Firstly as the letter suggests, it's a recent innovation anyway. As I understand it, it's 15 so long as you aren't paying any money. And it's 18 if you are. How weird.

I understand too that recently a falang was arrested over a 16 year old. The first time ever. There is debate as to how old the boy actually was.

The American situation - wrt anything to do with sex - is so ridiculous that it's best left alone.

TIn America, Mark Foley was hammered by the press and forced to resign, even though all he was doing was trying to have cybersex with a hot Congressional page way over the age of consent. He had violated that other American taboo, referred to above ("people who are in love with one another must be close matches in SES (Socio-Economic Status) and age").



That is not the taboo he violated. He violated the taboo about an authority figure hitting on a subordinate. And there's nothing "American" about it...unless teachers hitting on their students and bosses making passes at their employees is hunky dory where you're from.

Yes, you are not the first to notice that teenage boys tend to regard sex as sport, while teenage girls tend to regard sex as a marriage vow.

But let's have one age of consent for both sexes, since "males and females are interchangeable parts." :-0

absolutely amazing !!! and spot on.

The ony amazing thing about this is that anyone would take it (and you) seriously.

As you are no doubt aware, Asian culture and Buddhist culture in particular reveres men who look after the welfare of young people, especially boys. They are seen as putting wayward youth on the path of acceptance and tolerance.

Just how a certain Bill Goad (aka Bill Bollocks), dubbed Britain's most prolific serial pedophile, saw his actions.

Until quite recent times there was no such concept in law in Thailand (or elsewhere in South-East Asia, except for laws left over from colonial times), of an age of consent.

Totally untrue. In Thailand there were also laws against sodomy, only repealed in 1956, and the 1954 law classifying homosexuality as a "mental disorder" officially barring gays and transsexuals from serving in the military was only repealed in 2005.

Where there was love and harmony, in the space of a few short years, due to the introduction of Westernisation, there is now exploitation and violence.

So until "a few short years ago" there was no "exploitation and violence"? How about prior to the abolition of slavery in 1905 (although Britain has nothing to be proud of in this regard, only finally abolishing it in the colonies as late as 1936)?


: What shits me is that no-one it seems has ever considered that it just might be different to boys than girls.
The actual number - the age - has never been researched.

What "shits me" is that you could be so ill-informed. There is enough research on both subjects to keep even the most ardent researcher/statistician busy - sadly it is unlikely to keep them quiet.

[cottmann]

......So until "a few short years ago" there was no "exploitation and violence"? How about prior to the abolition of slavery in 1905 (although Britain has nothing to be proud of in this regard, only finally abolishing it in the colonies as late as 1936)? ......

GF, the UK abolished slavery through the entire British Empire by the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, which came into force on 1 August 1834, that is, an entire century and more before the date you noted, and some 30 years before Lincoln emancipated slaves in the Confederacy in 1862/3 and the USA abolished slavery in 1865.

Thailand actually abolished slavery gradually by a series of laws and royal proclamation between 1874 and 1911, though 1905 is often quoted as the year in which King Rama V abolished slavery.

As far as I can work out, the situation in Thailand is confusing. Firstly as the letter suggests, it's a recent innovation anyway. As I understand it, it's 15 so long as you aren't paying any money. And it's 18 if you are. How weird.But dear boy isn't it you who's been telling us that Thailand has nothing to learn from Western culture?

It's my view, yes. I also said that the West should try to learn a lot from Asian culture.

But how is that relevant to the quote?

It's my view, yes. I also said that the West should try to learn a lot from Asian culture. But how is that relevant to the quote?It points up your inconsistency. But that's to be expected

You seem to be angry. Why would it be expected? How is it inconsistent?

You seem to be angry. Why would it be expected? How is it inconsistent?Perhaps you need a course of study to exercise that lazy mind of yours. I'm not at all angry - read the quote from Jane Austen if you want to see my attitude to nonsense like yours

[alittlebi-old]

[quote="Henry Cate":qwv1286i]TIn America, Mark Foley was hammered by the press and forced to resign, even though all he was doing was trying to have cybersex with a hot Congressional page way over the age of consent. He had violated that other American taboo, referred to above ("people who are in love with one another must be close matches in SES (Socio-Economic Status) and age").



That is not the taboo he violated. He violated the taboo about an authority figure hitting on a subordinate. And there's nothing "American" about it...unless teachers hitting on their students and bosses making passes at their employees is hunky dory where you're from.[/quote:qwv1286i]

Just to add my two cents.

Foley was hammered because he was another HYPOCRITE that was caught. He voted for the DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE bill. He refused to challenge the DON'T ASK DON'T TELL policy. He also voted for and supported the DOPA Act of 2006 (which failed) which would have prevented access to sites like MySpace by anyone under 18.

As one writer stated "Foley has exploded in the national consciousness as a poster boy for anti-gay bias as a тАЬmolesterтАЭ and predator on children. Gay activists have worked hard to draw a bright line distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia ... Foley was focusing at least some of his sexual activity on children." [whcih by the way, were NOT over the Age of Consent].

Foley's chats: (http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/200 ... the_s.html (http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/exclusive_the_s.html))

Then he blamed it on being molested (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/10/3/182047/713)

Foley was gay and it was well known in his close circles. Had he come out, there is a strong belief that it would not have affected his political career. Being Gay wasn't his downfall.

But Foley TALKED THE TALK about protecting the children; then was caught exchanging suggestive IM's with a person that Foley knew was underage.

By the time it was over, neither side of the fence wanted Foley anywhere near them.

I'm not trying to turn this into a political discourse, but to infer that what happend to Foley was "un-American" isn't a true representation of what happened.

Something similar happened in Australia. A senior politician who actively sought out and punished users of cp was himself found to have a hard disc crammed full of the stuff.

You think it's hypocritical for a gay man to support a ban on gay marriages? You better talk to our own homintern about that.

I think it's interesting to see who the experts are on the age of consent around the world, and speculate on why they are interested in being such experts.

GF, the UK abolished slavery through the entire British Empire by the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, which came into force on 1 August 1834, that is, an entire century and more before the date you noted ...

Sorry to be pedantic, Cottman, but I think those who remained or became slaves in the British Empire after 1833 may have disagreed with you also. The Act not only excluded certain areas, such as " Territories in the Possession of the East India Company," the "Island of Ceylon," and "the Island of Saint Helena", but was not applied in other areas. In 1921, for example, the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, Winston Churchill, stated that "the abolition of slavery could not, however, have any immediate beneficial effect on the finances of the colony", referring to Sierra Leone when the Governor of Sierra Leone requested permission to end slavery there, and at that time it was still practiced in Gambia, Aden, Burma, Hong Kong and also in Northern Nigeria, where it was ended in 1936 - the last British colony to do so.

That's not being pedantic. If what you say is true then it's stunning information. It certainly makes a mockery of the recent celebrations in the UK to mark the end of slavery.

That's not being pedantic. If what you say is true then it's stunning information.

Rather than post a series of links to what some might say are biased sites, simply do a search such as "abolition of slavery nigeria" and verify the details for yourself. To me these are "facts" rather than "opinions". I always find it better to check the former before voicing the latter, but that seems to put me in a minority here.

The AoC is a strange notion. What shits me is that no-one it seems has ever considered that it just might be different to boys than girls. My guess is that it was created to protect girls.

The actual number - the age - has never been researched. Which is why this varies so dramatically from country to country. In other words, it's an arbitrary thing determined by current social thinking.

It's been as low as 10. Some sexless clowns want it to be 25.

Some countries have it such that it's higher if the other person is in a caring situation like being a teacher.
e.g. Australia where it's 16 or 18.

As far as I can work out, the situation in Thailand is confusing. Firstly as the letter suggests, it's a recent innovation anyway. As I understand it, it's 15 so long as you aren't paying any money. And it's 18 if you are. How weird.

I understand too that recently a falang was arrested over a 16 year old. The first time ever. There is debate as to how old the boy actually was.

The American situation - wrt anything to do with sex - is so ridiculous that it's best left alone.



Yes, the different ages for money and non-money, amuses me too.

It's a little known fact that the same situation exists in England and Wales though.

When the AOC was dropped/equalised to 16 there it became possible to slip all kinds of things in of course hee hee, but one legal nicety which was slipped in was the provision that prostitution even over the AOC was illegal under 18, oh and also the "person of authotity" clause.

When the "money" issue was told to me during a discussion I didn't believe it because there had been no flagging up of it in the gay press at the time. However I then took the time to read the legislation and it's right enough.

Still find it weird that I can have sex with a 16yo boy but I can't buy him a lollipop!

I'm assuming 16yo's suck lollipops these days - my experience is very limited.

That is not the taboo he violated. He violated the taboo about an authority figure hitting on a subordinate. And there's nothing "American" about it...unless teachers hitting on their students and bosses making passes at their employees is hunky dory where you're from.

Oops, you're quite right to point this out. My mistake. Sorry.

And I have nothing to say in defense of his hypocrisy.

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I picked a bad example. I do remember noting at the time that this fool was being very severely punished for a "sexual crime," especially when no sex took place. But he certainly asked for it and absolutely had it coming.

More information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Foley.