German magazine lists places to avoid because of Britons

[cottmann]

The BBC is reporting that the German tabloid newspaper "Bild" has printed a list of holiday resorts to avoid because they are dominated by the British. It does not say if Pattaya is on the list, however. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7433905.stm.

[Khor tose]

For the Germans just to ignore, or try to avoid one nationality is a great improvement over the way they ignored the humanity of one religious group.

[Wesley]

Not only once but twice they decided the Genetics of their race was superior to the rest of the world. I am not so sure now but in earlier post people seemed to try to avoid them at the beach. I guess you can find something wrong with everyone except the Thai.

Wes

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

From memory Bild is the German's version of the The Sun..which regularly loves to promote some argy bargy between the Krauts and noble Brits over football.

Personally-I avoid places full of British people on holiday..dearly as I love them especially having lived there most of my life..but do you really want to go the parts of Spain now where they congregate en masse ?.

If you are old enough to remember when Ibiza was a paradise with some New Age hippies about the most controversial thing you run into ( with the added bonus there would always be some cute lads amongst them)..now it's a veritable nightmare..thousand of yobbos drunken Brits .

Funny all this really...I have a friend who is a successful novelist and she sells huge amounts of books in Germany where she is highly popular...but her books are all about the English..who she reckons share exactly the same bawdy humour as the Germans !!!

[cottmann]

You can't blame the current generation for the atrocities committed by some of their grandfathers. And I'm making no excuses for the horrors of Nazism, but it is a generation or two behind us.

Of course, they borrowed the idea of concentration camps from their Anglo-Saxon British and American brethren who had used them, first, in the American Civil War (at Andersonville) and, second, in South Africa during the Boer War. The numbering system the Nazis used was then up-to-date information technology - courtesy of IBM's Hollerith punch cards and tailor-made programs (Germany was IBM's most profitable foreign operation, according to historian Edwin Black).

[cottmann]

They used gas chambers during the American Civil war and Boer in an effort to wipe an entire race from the earth, thus inspiring the Nazis to do the same? How fascinating! I never knew that Americans and South Africans were ultimately to blame for the holocaust.

Do not put words in my mouth - I said nothing about gas chambers, only about concentration camps and identity numbers! But, since you raised the issue, the Germans probably borrowed the idea from the United States, which had been using them for executions since the 1920s.

[Khor tose]

Of course, they borrowed the idea of concentration camps from their Anglo-Saxon British and American brethren who had used them, first, in the American Civil War (at Andersonville) and, second, in South Africa during the Boer War. The numbering system the Nazis used was then up-to-date information technology - courtesy of IBM's Hollerith punch cards and tailor-made programs (Germany was IBM's most profitable foreign operation, according to historian Edwin Black).

Thank you for expressing the revisionist view of Nazi Germany. The only place I have ever seen the comparison you make is on such trashy revisionist web sites. To compare Auschwitz with Andersonville is to compare travel by plane with a covered wagon. In the first place for every one Union soldier who died in battle two died of disease. Hygiene was unknown and contagious diseases were rampant. Two, the South had no food and supplies towards the end of the war. You are comparing a nineteenth century prison of war camp with a concentration camp whose whole purpose was to exterminate what was considered the "inferiors". Not only was the killing deliberate but done with extreme coldness and efficiency. You must hate the fact that the USA has a black man running for president. I will let the Brits defend the imprisonment of the Boers

[cottmann]

Of course, they borrowed the idea of concentration camps from their Anglo-Saxon British and American brethren who had used them, first, in the American Civil War (at Andersonville) and, second, in South Africa during the Boer War. The numbering system the Nazis used was then up-to-date information technology - courtesy of IBM's Hollerith punch cards and tailor-made programs (Germany was IBM's most profitable foreign operation, according to historian Edwin Black).

Thank you for expressing the revisionist view of Nazi Germany. The only place I have ever seen the comparison you make is on such trashy revisionist web sites. To compare Auschwitz with Andersonville is to compare travel by plane with a covered wagon. In the first place for every one Union soldier who died in battle two died of disease. Hygiene was unknown and contagious diseases were rampant. Two, the South had no food and supplies towards the end of the war. You are comparing a nineteenth century prison of war camp with a concentration camp whose whole purpose was to exterminate what was considered the "inferiors". Not only was the killing deliberate but done with extreme coldness and efficiency. You must hate the fact that the USA has a black man running for president. I will let the Brits defend the imprisonment of the Boers

I did not compare Auschwitz with Andersonville - I merely mentioned the latter as an example of a concentration camp, which is what Michael Gray calls it in an article he wrote for a 2007 issues of "The Journal of Military History." He, and it, are both American. Caroline Kleiner's 2002 book "The Demon of Andersonville" paints a somewhat different picture of it than you do.

I do not understand your reference to why I should hate the US because of Barack Obama's nomination for president - unless you intend to imply that I am racist.

[catawampuscat]

I seem to recall the worst of the football hooligans and rioters hailed from the UK. And this was in other countries than the UK.

Frankly, drunken obnoxious Germans, or Brits or Russians heteros are all the same and to avoided at all costs..
Every nation has it louts, bad eggs and arseholes but they do seem to be overly represented by the
Brits and Germans and the Russians (E.Europeans), at least in Thailand tourist centers.. :cat:

It's good to see that the "towel in the pool" campaign is having the desired effect.

Now if we can just persuade the Brits to stop booking tours through subsidiaries of TUI ...

[Aunty]

The BBC is reporting that the German tabloid newspaper "Bild" has printed a list of holiday resorts to avoid because they are dominated by the British.

Sounds very sensible to me.

[Aunty]

I've met and worked with many young Germans over the years. With a few exceptions, they are lovely people. What happened in the past happened in the past. The young Germans of today were not alive between 1933-1945, so could do nothing to alter the course of German history during that time. To cast any sort of balme or even guilt on them for the Nazi terror is perverse and wrong thinking at its best.

My grandfather was a guest of the Kaiser between 1914-1918. Should I hold that against todays Germans?

Yeh, but even the current generation leave their towels on the sun-beds.

Never a Dalek around when you need one.

[Khor tose]

I need a reference to the Journal so I can look it up. I cannot find a reference to Michael Grey on the internet. I have not read Caroline Kleiner's 2002 book "The Demon of AndersonvilleтАЭ, but all the reviews I have googled do not mention her calling Andersonville a concentration camp. Please supply a page number where she calls it a concentration camp. I have read John Ransom's "Andersonville dairy," which was made into a not so good movie about Andersonville. I also saw both the stage play and the outstanding TV movie of the Andersonville Trail. (George C. ScottтАЩs outstanding acting and directing). Bruce Catton also discusses Andersonville in his outstanding books about the Civil War.;
1. No writer or historian I know of has ever called Andersonville a concentration camp.
2. It is often described as one giant cluster f*ck, and never as a deliberate attempt to kill the prisoners, like Auschwitz definitely was.
3. You also state in an earlier reply that the Germans got the idea for using gas from the Americans who used it to execute prisoners. This implies (along with your other statements) that the Germans were just doing what everyone else was doing with their use of gas to kill the тАЬinferiorsтАЭ, and have concentration camps. Once again there is no comparison.
4. I have only seen these arguments used on site where people try to justify or deny the
deliberate extermination of millions of concentration camp victims during WWII.
5. The only revisionists I have ever met were racist. However, I am generalizing and I do owe you an apology for that. Yes, I was implying that of you, but realize that I do not have the evidence to do so. I repeat, I am sorry for that implication, that was stupid of me.

Aunty, if you can remember what started this thread you might realize it was an article that showed that some Germans did not want to associate with a particular group. That sounds like exactly the same mind set that lead to the concentration camps. That mindset may be okay to you, but it is an anathema to me.

555 we are talking about the daleks, what we need is the Doctor.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"My grandfather was a guest of the Kaiser between 1914-1918. Should I hold that against todays Germans?"

That's a long time to be a house guest. Was it some sort of love affair ?

[cottmann]

I need a reference to the Journal so I can look it up. I cannot find a reference to Michael Grey on the internet. I have not read Caroline Kleiner's 2002 book "The Demon of AndersonvilleтАЭ, but all the reviews I have googled do not mention her calling Andersonville a concentration camp. Please supply a page number where she calls it a concentration camp. I have read John Ransom's "Andersonville dairy," which was made into a not so good movie about Andersonville. I also saw both the stage play and the outstanding TV movie of the Andersonville Trail. (George C. ScottтАЩs outstanding acting and directing). Bruce Catton also discusses Andersonville in his outstanding books about the Civil War.;
1. No writer or historian I know of has ever called Andersonville a concentration camp.
2. It is often described as one giant cluster f*ck, and never as a deliberate attempt to kill the prisoners, like Auschwitz definitely was.
3. You also state in an earlier reply that the Germans got the idea for using gas from the Americans who used it to execute prisoners. This implies (along with your other statements) that the Germans were just doing what everyone else was doing with their use of gas to kill the тАЬinferiorsтАЭ, and have concentration camps. Once again there is no comparison.
4. I have only seen these arguments used on site where people try to justify or deny the
deliberate extermination of millions of concentration camp victims during WWII.
5. The only revisionists I have ever met were racist. However, I am generalizing and I do owe you an apology for that. Yes, I was implying that of you, but realize that I do not have the evidence to do so. I repeat, I am sorry for that implication, that was stupid of me.

Sorry for the misspelling of his name: it is Gray not Grey and the reference is Michael P Gray, Ghosts and Shadows of Andersonville: Essays on the Secret Social Histories of America's Deadliest Prison (review), The Journal of Military History - Volume 71, Number 2, April 2007, pp. 533-534.

Please read what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote.

I didn't write that Kleiner called Andersonville a concentration camp; what I wrote was that she painted a different picture than the one you presented - or at least that is my opinion of what she wrote.

As for historians calling Andersonville a concentration camp, I refer you to "Escape from Andersonville: A Study in Isolation and Imprisonment," Robert S. Davis, The Journal of Military History, Vol. 67, No. 4 (Oct., 2003), pp. 1065-1081. In the abstract on page 1065, he writes: "Civil War Camp Sumter, the notorious Confederate prison camp popularly known as Andersonville, became the world's first great concentration camp." As far as I know, this journal and the Society for Military History that publishes it are not revisionary.

I have no quarrel with anything you write about Auschwitz, but my posting was on concentrations camps in general, not one specific one nor one specific type of concentration camp. I have checked my postings and I never mentioned Auschwitz or any other extermination camp. Not all German concentration camps were extermination camps. The Wikipedia list of German concentration camps shows that extermination camps were a minority of the camps established by the Nazi regime.

I didn't say that the "Germans got the idea for using gas from the Americans who used it to execute prisoners." What I wrote was, "the Germans probably borrowed the idea from the United States, which had been using them for executions since the 1920s." Any further inference you drew from that statement about "the Germans were just doing what everyone else was doing with their use of gas to kill the тАЬinferiorsтАЭ, and have concentration camps, " is yours - I said nothing about inferiors nor about doing what everyone else was doing.

Nothing I have written has ever denied or tried to justify the deliberate extermination of millions of concentration camp victims during WWII, so please do not read into my postings what is not there.

Thank you for your apology, but I will admit to being both racist and sexist - I won't sleep with white guys or women.

Hollerith's parents were German immigrants. They weren't proper computers though. Merely card sorters with plug board programmable controllers. The proper computers were being developed in Cambridge, Bloomsbury and Manchester.

[Aunty]

"My grandfather was a guest of the Kaiser between 1914-1918. Should I hold that against todays Germans?"

That's a long time to be a house guest. Was it some sort of love affair ?

Well queer things do run in the family!

[Aunty]

Aunty, if you can remember what started this thread you might realize it was an article that showed that some Germans did not want to associate with a particular group. That sounds like exactly the same mind set that lead to the concentration camps. That mindset may be okay to you, but it is an anathema to me.

I think you'll find the story behind the story that brought about this thread in the first place (and widely reported here in NZ) is not what this thread suggests it to be. You should try, as the initiating factor, boorish British behaviour!

[Marsilius]

Cottman is right to draw the distinction between concentration camps and extermination camps.

The purpose of concentration camps was to concentrate all one's captured enemies in one easily guarded place (in the case of the Boer war, the concentration camps held Boer families to prevent them offering succour to their menfolk who were fighting in the field.) The aim of a concentration camp was not extermination - though obviously (e.g. Dachau, the first German concentration camp established by the Nazis in 1933 for political prisoners) they could, if the regime so desired, be places of great brutality or even murder of individual prisoners.

Specific extermination camps - mechanising on industrial lines the death process for entire races (e.g Gypsies or Jews) or social groups (e.g. homosexuals) - originated only from 1942 onwards when, with the resettlement of Jews in Siberia or Madagascar ruled out by the fact that the war was not being won by Germany after all, the Wannsee conference finally drew up plans for a Final Solution to the Jewish question.

It is extermination camps that were the Germans' unique contribution to camp history.

Anybody else find it a tad suspicious that German companys have bought up all the UK chav travel companies and are now openly admitting to CONCENTRATING uk chav tourists to particular destinations. I blame Margaret Thatcher.

... how many time has a Brit said "I'm not going there, too many Germans"!!

Is Dresden on the list????????????????????? :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Is Dresden on the list?????????????????????

What an absolutely spiffing idea. Maybe TUI could organize overflight trips with a sound and light show for former brylcream boys. Choks away!

[Davey612]

I have personally not witnessed terrible behavior from UK tourists.

However, this article from the New York Times seem to imply it is a well-known issue - Getting drunk and merrymaking abroad. One of the comments is that it feels like a prison while in the U.K?

New York Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/world/europe/24crete.html?ex=1377316800&en=29aa360b0f5e4058&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink)

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

when I was very very young..I was gorgeous and blond and rather Aryan looking,,blue eyes, tanned,slim but well built and did carry a rather superior air. I always traveled with a lady friend who had a marvellous hour-glass figure, beautiful slim legs, tall..big boobs crammed in a tiny bikini- and was also blonde and blue eyed.

In those days we would nightclub all night long..stagger home and get to the beach early ( as one can when you are fabulously young)

I had it in Portugaul, Italy , Spain and Greece..Brits would mutter at us as we sauntered by..me with my head in the air.."fucking Germans " they would say.

Once in Spain a group said "Hitler would have been proud of those two !"..if they only knew..she was Irish and I'm , well a bit like mongrel--mixture of everything without a bit of German blood !

The numbering system the Nazis used was then up-to-date information technology - courtesy of IBM's Hollerith punch cards and tailor-made programs (Germany was IBM's most profitable foreign operation, according to historian Edwin Black).


That'd be decimal which was, I think, developed by a non-Jewish semitic people - the ones who developed Al gebra. The Romans had a rotten confusing numbering system.

Early British computers, largely used 3 bit Octal codes but it was Siemens (a German corporation) that patented the eight bit byte which supported ASCII with hexadecimal.

Trying to implicate IBM in the holocaust is as futile and idiotic as the conflation of concentration camps with extermination camps and then attempting to blame the British.

Only those who like to blame the British for everything stoop to such idiotic contortions.

For the Germans just to ignore, or try to avoid one nationality is a great improvement over the way they ignored the humanity of one religious group.

In the present time this one religious group shows us their humanity very often with the palestinians?

In the present time this one religious group shows us their humanity very often with the palestinians?You mean they're human beings and behaving as such?

In the present time this one religious group shows us their humanity very often with the palestinians?You mean they're human beings and behaving as such?

Yes it is very human kill by shooting stone throwing kids and other stuff.

Yes it is very human kill by shooting stone throwing kids and other stuff.And you don't like the way humans behave then?