Seven Eleven's shame

Recently I saw in the letters column of the Nation, a reply letter from Seven Eleven, arguing that they are no threat to small retail shops in Thailand because they are franchises and because they don't undercut prices to other small stores and sell different products to them.
This is of course complete rubbish. Seven Eleven are a direct threat to the Thai way of life.

Like all American franchises operating outside of America there is scant regard for the the people or the economies they are operating in. The fact that Seven Eleven only recently, 2005, became an indirect subsidiary of the Japanese company Seven & 1 Holdings hasn't changed a thing.

If you walk down any street in Thailand within a few hundred meters you will see at least five seven Eleven's, some almost next door to each other, this is ridiculous and is undermining local shops and stalls doing business. They sell almost exactly the same things and while they might not "always" undercut prices they attract with air-con and junk foods. Making it very difficult for small stall owners to compete without undercutting their own profit margins to attract the customers they need to survive. Not only this but they are pushing up rents for shop keepers and feeding unhealthy food to the youth of Thailand.

Please think twice before you go into a Seven Eleven they are possibly even worse than Tesco's.

[Marsilius]

When Tesco recently applied to increase the number of their smaller convenience stores throughout Pattaya, local store owners understandably objected.

But when City Hall polled local residents as to whether they wanted to see Tesco on their soi corners, the overwhelming result was a "yes" vote.

Like consumers everywhere, local people saw how they would benefit from more choice and more competition - and wanted to be free from being held over a barrel by the monopolistic local store owner.

An instance where "Thai Rak Thai" turned out to be no more than just a slogan, after all!

But when City Hall polled local residents as to whether they wanted to see Tesco on their soi corners, the overwhelming result was a "yes" vote.

Like consumers everywhere, local people saw how they would benefit from more choice and more competition - and wanted to be free from being held over a barrel by the monopolistic local store owner.



How are local shops and stall holders monopolising trade exactly? And this poll was credible? Tesco's is a disgrace in Thailand. It's not so much Thailand for the Thais, but trying to keep greedy western and other multi national companies from trying to destroy the fabric of Thai life out.

There is a branch of Tesco in Surin that must be the most popular shopping area in the province. Thais travel miles to go there.
Why? It offers huge choice, affordable prices and great service. And guess what: there is hardly a farang in the place.
If Tesco and other international chains were not wanted by Thai people they would have closed years ago.

Cedric, it's called progress. Thai's like it ... even if it spoils your picture-postcard image of the country.

Not a word about Mcdonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, and so forth ad nauseam! Not only the economic implications but the unmitigated nutritional disaster they foist on their patrons.
Silom Farang of "Gay Boy Thailand" otherwise excellent blog never tires of writing about his sojourns to Burger King which on occasion he has treated as if it were gourmet fare. (Detailed essays on how they don't get the meat just right.) And he is always writing about his trips to the various 7-11s and the "benefits" one offers over the other.
I find it all quite amusing in a very dark way since all of these places take a huge toll in every regard that I can think of.

When Tesco recently applied to increase the number of their smaller convenience stores throughout Pattaya, local store owners understandably objected.

But when City Hall polled local residents as to whether they wanted to see Tesco on their soi corners, the overwhelming result was a "yes" vote.

Like consumers everywhere, local people saw how they would benefit from more choice and more competition - and wanted to be free from being held over a barrel by the monopolistic local store owner.

An instance where "Thai Rak Thai" turned out to be no more than just a slogan, after all!

Marsilius, have you ever read Noam Chomsky's writing on the subject?

[Marsilius]

From the Pattaya Mail, January 25 2008 - a genuine item of news (gasp!)...:

"The first Tesco Lotus Express retail outlet in Pattaya took another step towards completion on January 14, despite the fierce opposition of local shopkeepers, when a second public hearing revealed the majority of residents to be in favor of the store.
The Thai Union Against Foreign Retailers has actively lobbied against the store, and construction was halted towards the end of last year to clarify the status and legality of the work.
Tesco Lotus had carried out its own research, which showed that the majority of people in Pattaya were in favor of the store. Local retailers, however, had vehemently opposed the results, and PattayaтАЩs mayor had suggested a second public hearing be undertaken.
The results of that second hearing have revealed that the majority of residents are in favor of Tesco Lotus Express.
On January 14 at Pattaya City Hall, Mayor Niran Wattanasartsathorn chaired the second public hearing for people in 27 communities regarding the acceptance of the Tesco Lotus Express on Soi Nernplabwan in Central Pattaya.
Niran said that the situation has confused many people. City hall had examined the construction work and the permissions granted to use the area, and found that everything was approved correctly. However, those in opposition to the project continue to accuse Pattaya administrators of having a special interest in the large department store chain. That, said Niran, is not true at all.
If anyone still has doubts about the permission for constructing Tesco Lotus Express on Soi Nernplabwan, then they can verify the details at any time, he added. Pattaya City has operated according to the law and the Ministry of Interior regulations. It has acted throughout for the benefit of the local inhabitants.
Tawit Chaisawangwong, chairman of Pattaya council said that checks have been made to ensure that there has been no suspicious activity regarding the granting of permissions. He said that all such processes are based on the law, and that a section exists in city hall to verify the procedures of government officials.
Representatives of the Rungruang Community, which is in the same construction area as Tesco Lotus Express, said that the general point of view amongst residents is that local retailers and foreign retailers have their own customers, and that the two groups of customers are not the same.
Shoppers will use their own discretion. Local retailers should have confidence in what they offer, and in the service they give. Consumers will find what they want for themselves. If a higher price means better quality, they will pay the higher price.
There were 228 people at this second public hearing. Of these, 156 people voted for Tesco Lotus Express and 69 people were against. Two people abstained and there was one spoiled paper (invalid ballot).
After the results were announced, there were still some people who were not satisfied. They questioned Niran, who said that the results of this second public meeting would be submitted to the governor of Chonburi for final consideration."

Mom and Pop stores aren't worth saving. They're dark, dusty, non-airconditioned, and often sell shoddy and expired goods. If they become extinct, so what. People like shopping at 7-11.

Exactly RawSugar, it's disgusting that the Americans want the whole world to be as unhealthy as they are and smell as bad too. Talking of Naom Chomsky I have their "Imperial Ambitions", conversations with Naom post 9/11, Penguin.

I got it by default, I was having dinner after tennis and left my balls in the restaurant. A few days later I sent in the maid to pick them up and she came out with a bag full of balls a book and a birthday card addressed to Christopher. They just gave her all the left property. I haven't read it yet but am planing to before I return it. Any good?

Part of one article:
Increasingly, biofuels are likely to "starve the poor" around the world, according to Runge and Senauer, as staples are converted to ethanol production for the privileged тАФ cassava in sub-Saharan Africa, to take one ominous example. Meanwhile, in Southeast Asia, tropical forests are cleared and burned for oil palms destined for biofuel, and there are threatening environmental effects from input-rich production of corn-based ethanol in the United States as well.

The high price of tortillas and other, crueler vagaries of the international order illustrate the interconnectedness of events, from the Middle East to the Middle West, and the urgency of establishing trade based on true democratic agreements among people, and not interests whose principal hunger is for profit for corporate interests protected and subsidised by the state they largely dominate, whatever the human cost.

Mom and Pop stores aren't worth saving. They're dark, dusty, non-airconditioned, and often sell shoddy and expired goods. If they become extinct, so what. People like shopping at 7-11.

You silly delinquent they are not "Mom and Pop" stores, stop using grotesque American jargon to describe economies five thousand miles away. It's everyone's health, its stall holders, cart holders, the informal economy, fresh markets and small shops.

Exactly RawSugar, it's disgusting that the Americans want the whole world to be as unhealthy as they are and smell as bad too. Talking of Naom Chomsky I have their "Imperial Ambitions", conversations with Naom post 9/11, Penguin.

Any good?

I have been reading Noam Chomsky for decades and find him very good. It is said that he is the seventh most quoted man in history. I would guess that the average American would not like him very much since he is all but banned from the air waves in the USA, a fate he shares with Gore Vidal, another writer I like a great deal. I like Gore Vidal so much in fact, that in January this year I flew from BKK to Sri Lanka to hear him speak at the Galle Literary Festival. Despite the fact that he gets around in a wheel chair now, his mind is as sharp as a tack, along with his amazing wit.

DELETED

Mom and Pop stores aren't worth saving. They're dark, dusty, non-airconditioned, and often sell shoddy and expired goods. If they become extinct, so what. People like shopping at 7-11.

But its exactly the dark and dusty places a lot of us enjoy the most, and the only "expired goods" I worry about are boys who have grown long in the tooth. And beside that, I don't want a world that looks like an operating theater in a hospital. I once went to Paragon and as I looked around I could only think of all the things there are in the world that I am not the least bit interested in.

Noam Chomsky's *Manufacturing Consent* goes into this issue at great length.

Exactly RawSugar, it's disgusting that the Americans want the whole world to be as unhealthy as they are and smell as bad too. Talking of Naom Chomsky I have their "Imperial Ambitions", conversations with Naom post 9/11, Penguin.

I got it by default, I was having dinner after tennis and left my balls in the restaurant. A few days later I sent in the maid to pick them up and she came out with a bag full of balls a book and a birthday card addressed to Christopher. They just gave her all the left property. I haven't read it yet but am planing to before I return it. Any good?

That's right blame the americans for everything wrong in this world..... Cedric dear, I think you've been drinking too much le cheap french wine that's turned into le vinegar because the french refuse to modernize their wine making techniques. Oh yes you can keep your cheap wine, your now defunked Concorde, and your soon to be bankrupt social system and completely ignore the fact that you would now be speaking German instead of french if it were NOT for the Americans saving your ass and your right to complain. :cherry: :bom: :drunken: :alien:

Part of one article:
Increasingly, biofuels are likely to "starve the poor" around the world, according to Runge and Senauer, as staples are converted to ethanol production for the privileged ├п┬┐┬╜ cassava in sub-Saharan Africa, to take one ominous example. Meanwhile, in Southeast Asia, tropical forests are cleared and burned for oil palms destined for biofuel, and there are threatening environmental effects from input-rich production of corn-based ethanol in the United States as well.

The high price of tortillas and other, crueler vagaries of the international order illustrate the interconnectedness of events, from the Middle East to the Middle West, and the urgency of establishing trade based on true democratic agreements among people, and not interests whose principal hunger is for profit for corporate interests protected and subsidised by the state they largely dominate, whatever the human cost.

The other day BBC had this article which, even for an old cynic like me, was a shocker of the first order! The much vaulted Green Revolution highly touted by big chemical companies like Dow and Monsanto and so many scientists as well, has turned against us. This is cause for extreme concern, and on top of all the issues you have enumerated.

Just take a gander at this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/p ... 366899.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7366899.stm)

Mom and Pop stores aren't worth saving. They're dark, dusty, non-airconditioned, and often sell shoddy and expired goods. If they become extinct, so what. People like shopping at 7-11.

But its exactly the dark and dusty places a lot of us enjoy the most, and the only "expired goods" I worry about are boys who have grown long in the tooth. And beside that, I don't want a world that looks like an operating theater in a hospital. I once went to Paragon and as I looked around I could only think of all the things there are in the world that I am not the least bit interested in.

Noam Chomsky's *Manufacturing Consent* goes into this issue at great length.

You're free to shop where you want. I love 7-11, and so does everyone I know (except the Commie who calls himself Cedric, who believes the government should somehow protect us from the freedom of choice).

Exactly RawSugar, it's disgusting that the Americans want the whole world to be as unhealthy as they are and smell as bad too. Talking of Naom Chomsky I have their "Imperial Ambitions", conversations with Naom post 9/11, Penguin.

I got it by default, I was having dinner after tennis and left my balls in the restaurant. A few days later I sent in the maid to pick them up and she came out with a bag full of balls a book and a birthday card addressed to Christopher. They just gave her all the left property. I haven't read it yet but am planing to before I return it. Any good?

Because you sent the maid to the tennis court to solve your problem, I suppose that she will do the shopping (at 7/11) too?

You're free to shop where you want. I love 7-11, and so does everyone I know (except the Commie who calls himself Cedric, who believes the government should somehow protect us from the freedom of choice).



You're free to shop where you want. I love 7-11, and so does everyone I know (except the Commie who calls himself Cedric, who believes the government should somehow protect us from the freedom of choice).

And its also the fascist Fundamentalist Christians who are always talking about "freedom of choice" when we don't want to allow them to force their way of life down our throats.

Homintern in another forum of SGT posted a URL from the New York Times concerning how much control the Christian fruitcakes exercise in the US Armed Forces. It almost seems as if Bush's army is the newest crusade to ram his vision of "freedom" down the throats of all and sundry even on a scale that would have made Hitler envious. I once watched Bush tell an interviewer that he speaks to Jesus every morning and that Jesus calls him by his first name, George.

And of course, we all know that in America you always have the freedom to choose between Mcdonalds and Burger King. And Americans die in droves around the world to defend this fantastic illusion.

its also the fascist Fundamentalist Christians who are always talking about "freedom of choice" when we don't want to allow them to force their way of life down our throats.

And of course, we all know that in America you always have the freedom to choose between Mcdonalds and Burger King. And Americans die in droves around the world to defend this fantastic illusion.

Yes of course it is. I am thrilled to report that Starfucks is in deep trouble. I was in Los Angeles a few weeks ago and most of their "outlets" are almost completely empty. Hooray!

hardly surprising, their coffee is shit

[Brad the Impala]

[
Oh yes you can keep your cheap wine, your now defunked Concorde, and your soon to be bankrupt social system and completely ignore the fact that you would now be speaking German instead of french if it were NOT for the Americans saving your ass and your right to complain. :cherry: :bom: :drunken: :alien:

Errr.....there may have been a few other nations involved in saving French ass!

[ikarus]

[quote="Cedric"] I was having dinner after tennis and left my balls in the restaurant.

Not only that. You left your brains somewhere too many years ago. This is,of course, if you had any...

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Please think twice before you go into a Seven Eleven they are possibly even worse than Tesco's.

now this is more sensible Cedric than weeping slumped over over the bannister about some houseboy you think you are in love with (or even worse-think has the hots for you !)

of course 7 Eleven, Tescos and friggin Walmarts and gobbling up the world and are a menace to society and are in fact ANTI-CAPITALISTS !!

however be heartened , McDonalds are slowly closing in some western countries as the message gets through that their food causes obesity and probably cancer in the long term so they are resorting to opening in places like Iraq and Iran so you risk being blown apart or strung up for your big mac..especially you Cedric if you go about batting your eyelids at some Iranian busboy.

This is excellent news. Sadly it doesn't seem to be happening here in Asia, packed to the rafters with fat little children.

Please leave J out of this, we grew up together virtually and have been teetering on the edge of a deep unspoken love for five years. He isn't a houseboy, he's a room service attendant and I am sure he is supporting his whole family working himself to the bone, even his blood sugar levels could be all wrong as a result, sacrificed everything university everything. I am going to try and get him transferred to HongKong into a better position if he like.

hardly surprising, their coffee is shit

But those frappuccino things are yummy. You know you agree.

Those dusty corner stores deserve to die out and go extinct. They sell shoddy goods at inflated prices. Why are they worth saving? People vote with their feet and they all marched to 7-11, Tesco and their ilk because you get better value for money. I applaud that. It's called capitalism and no better system has been invented yet.

Those dusty corner stores deserve to die out and go extinct. They sell shoddy goods at inflated prices. Why are they worth saving? People vote with their feet and they all marched to 7-11, Tesco and their ilk because you get better value for money. I applaud that. It's called capitalism and no better system has been invented yet.

Yes! Hear, hear!

If Cedric had his way, not only would we be shopping in dusty old mom-and-pop shops, we'd be watching movies in decrepit old cinemas like the old Washington, McKenna, and pre-restoration Lido and Siam, with scratchy sound, bad focus, seats with springs coming out of them, and rats in the aisles, rather than the great cinemas we now have in Thailand. Thankfully, though, those Chinese movie theaters have been run out of business by modern cinemas where you actually get value. Progress!

I have nothing against progress, as long as it's real sustainable progress. I hate what has become of Bangkok and I get the idea a lot of locals do too, because none of it really benefits them. Knocking down an entire neighbourhood to build a mall and sticking displaced people into cheap high rise or worse is soul destroying. These days I hardly venture across the Chao Phraya.

Singapore is hideous, its soul sucked right out of it, Hong Kong is going the same way. Thailand should fight it and hope that another Thaksin doesn't come along.

Knocking down an entire neighbourhood to build a mall and sticking displaced people into cheap high rise or worse is soul destroying.

Is that how you think it works? No. A developer comes in an BUYS the land from the original owners. They're pleased as punch. People like YOU are upset because their "picturesque" houses (mostly run-down shop houses and eyesores) are gone. The locals couldn't be happier.

Singapore is hideous, its soul sucked right out of it, Hong Kong is going the same way. Thailand should fight it and hope that another Thaksin doesn't come along.

When's the last time you opened your eyes in Bangkok? It has ALWAYS been hideous!

Knocking down an entire neighbourhood to build a mall and sticking displaced people into cheap high rise or worse is soul destroying.

Is that how you think it works? No. A developer comes in an BUYS the land from the original owners. They're pleased as punch. People like YOU are upset because their "picturesque" houses (mostly run-down shop houses and eyesores) are gone. The locals couldn't be happier.

Yes, the developers "buy" the land using fake monetary instruments like Michael Milken did with "junk bonds". The current scam which almost completely duplicates his "junk bond" scam of yore is the "mortgage bond" scam that brought down Bear Stearns and had disastrous consequences for the global financial world. Now the US Central Bank (Federal Reserve Board) in essence has bailed them out by guaranteeing all of their make-believe assets. Jimmy Rogers in a recent interview outlined this perfectly here: http://www.marketoracle.net/Article4248.html

The problem is that the playing field is not even. If Bear Stearns is ready to go out of business for completely idiotic dealings the US Government steps in and saves them by guaranteeing their $30 billion in non-existent assets . If a "mom & pop" operation fails its a completely different story. Even the Chairman of Citibank was forced to resign for having been part of this scam. But the rewards they were able to reap over the years they were operating this money scam will hardly ever be repaid. For the harm these brutes have caused the average person in the entire Western world, they should be stripped of all their ill-gotten gains, at the very least.

But no, they are the "captains of industry" just like WalMart and McDonalds! They make the Mafia look like a sewing circle for old ladies.

And the USA government supports this kind of theft in the name of "freedom of choice" and "capitalism". On top of that, in the USA there is now a tendency to blame the poor individual people duped into this scam to buy houses "with zero down". They are being blamed for the crisis. Sure... and these same people give matchboxes to infants to play with too!

When I was last in America I was flabbergasted with signs all over the country proclaiming "No Job? No Credit? No Money? NO PROBLEM!" It seemed to me that "capitalism" had won the day and was ready to provide a veritable paradise of endless McMansions with goodies from WalMart and Sharper Image and SUVs in the driveways topped up with cheap petrol. Its all part of the same sideshow that brings you 7-11, McDonalds, and Burger King, and in the end, the individual is crushed.

As usual, I am amazed by the general level of ignorance on show about topics such as this. Firstly, most farangs who write here only know about the Thailand of large population centres such as Bangkok and Pattaya. If you went out into the countryside that is 99% of Thailand, the towns there do not have 7/11's and Family marts on every corner. They very well might do in years to come, but at the moment Thailand is deciding whether these stores are a good idea or not. As far as price goes, they DO NOT undercut supermarkets, but are on a par with the local corner shops. Thais are using them for convenience shopping only. Dont try and buy your family needs there, they dont do bulk food. They are only good for drinks, snacks, small sizes of necessities, ciggies and sweets. It all comes in a clean and cool environment, open 24/7 and for those areas where they are everywhere, just a minutes walk away. They also, as far as 7/11's go managed the brilliant move of making utility bills so easy to pay. Add to this the fact that most have a ATM, phone and water machine outside them.
As for supermarkets, people will vote with their feet. As far as I can see, Thais love the choice, especially on hard goods, whilst doing their food shops at more traditional places like local markets. As far as pattaya goes, market stalls are still the most popular form of food shopping, and I do not include food carts here. I mean places such as the Wat Chai market. There you can buy anything you want. Cheapness and community values abound at these markets. but a burgeoning middle class will want a better environment to shop in. Choice, cleanliness, some sort of customer protection and good price are what the supermarkets offer. It is obvious that market forces will increase these places. Mistakes will be made and there will be winners and losers. Please dont pretend that protecting the past and stopping progress, enshrining the old ways as the only way is what must be done. That is stupid. Of course, if you mean will the enlightened and all seeing city hall politicians manage to get the balance right in terms of awarding building permits, or as is normal, entirely balls it all up. That is another matter all together.

[thrillbill]

The spread of Seven-Eleven reminds me of Mega Walmarts sprouting in every American city. People complain about Walmart; yet, go there to shop. Now consumers are #itching because they have to park their cars a half kilometer away in the store's massive parking lot, then take a 15 minute walk to just buy a can of paint (located way back in the corner) and another 30 minutes to get some nit-wit to mix the paint for you... then a five minute walk with one item to the cash register and then wait another 15 minutes to get through the check out line...then a 7 minute walk back to the car... (mmm,you think Americans would be getting thinner with all that walking to buy a carton of milk or a can of paint but they have those shopping scooters to ride for the "handicap".) Yes, in the olden days with the local ma and pa hardware store, the whole ordeal would have been a 15 minute episode. People can complain about the small shops closing ; yet, they're the ones that have closed them up.

(By the way I like Seven-Elevens on every block. In this humidity I can walk in and out of them for an escape from the heat. :bounce:

There is a branch of Tesco in Surin that must be the most popular shopping area in the province. Thais travel miles to go there.
Why? It offers huge choice, affordable prices and great service. And guess what: there is hardly a farang in the place.
If Tesco and other international chains were not wanted by Thai people they would have closed years ago.

Cedric, it's called progress. Thai's like it ... even if it spoils your picture-postcard image of the country.

Actually, not all Thais like it - the Tesco-Lotus in Loei was due to open well over two years ago: fully built, permits correct, etc. Due to local pressure it is still just a large car park and an empty (but fully equipped!) building.

There is a branch of Tesco in Surin that must be the most popular shopping area in the province. Thais travel miles to go there.
Why? It offers huge choice, affordable prices and great service. And guess what: there is hardly a farang in the place.
If Tesco and other international chains were not wanted by Thai people they would have closed years ago.

Cedric, it's called progress. Thai's like it ... even if it spoils your picture-postcard image of the country.

Actually, not all Thais like it - the Tesco-Lotus in Loei was due to open well over two years ago: fully built, permits correct, etc. Due to local pressure it is still just a large car park and an empty (but fully equipped!) building.

Local pressure = Chinese-Thai mom-and-pop shop owners making a ruckus. No one else. Certainly not the consumer, who would benefit by the opening.

Tesco, 7-11 etc survive because people choose to use them. If the store next door provides a better service, 7-11 don't survive.

We are priviledged to have a choice of such fine shops.
This is a vastly superior situation to the food queues in the monopoly stores of the old Soviet Union, or even the continuation of waiting lists in the British NHS (different service, same principle).

I only wish 7-11 would open in the UK & put some of the shoddy dark understocked corner shops out of business.

This is a vastly superior situation to the food queues in the monopoly stores of the old Soviet Union, or even the continuation of waiting lists in the British NHS (different service, same principle).


The Soviet Union has been out of business for a long time.
If you like expensive and shoddy medical care (rated 17th in the world by the WHO, yet the most expensive by far) then move to the United States where it can take three months to get an appointment costing "big bucks" with an internist and then get bankrupted in the process. Or you may prefer to get medical insurance in the USA which will bankrupt you more slowly over a longer period of time and refuse payment for many of your doctors visits.

Sorry to disappoint you Raw Sugar but one of the few things Nu Labour have made a difference to are queues in the NHS. This has been partly done by shovelling money at greedy IT providers several US based but the fact remains that the queues are shorter. How do I know? I'm a frequent user - unfortunately.

7-11 everywhere - why?

Supply and demand - nobody makes anyone use them.

[cottmann]

Like all American franchises operating outside of America there is scant regard for the the people or the economies they are operating in. The fact that Seven Eleven only recently, 2005, became an indirect subsidiary of the Japanese company Seven & 1 Holdings hasn't changed a thing. .

711 isn't an American franchise as it is a totally owned subsidiary of Seven & I Holdings since November 2005. Seven & I is the main component of the Ito-Yokado group (from which the 7 and I come). In Japan, Seven and I also run the Denny's chain of restaurants.

Of course the "emerging middle classes" are all flocking to the 7/11's? Hardly.
All the things 7/11 sells are just as easily bought from a tiny cart stand lining any street or a simple small shop. I don't see the need for these ugly shops taking away business from sometimes no more than a single woman on the street trying to earn an honest living. For five Baht I can get an iced soda water on the street just as easily, and that is who we should be patronising not some ex-American Japanese franchise operation sucking fees out of Thailand giving nothing back.

Same with Tesco. All planning permission for Tesco expansions should immediately cease.
I am also appalled at the state some local markets have been allowed to sink into. One rain and they are swimming in knee deep water. It's almost as though no one cares, as long as there is a mall to go into. This one in Nothaburi was under half a meter of water soon after I took this picture on my phone, the little boy had to clutch the shaky tent poles for his life, as a tsunami of filthy gunge swept up into his face.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2408/2453627640_3161050499.jpg

Excellent illustration of why people prefer shopping in modern venues.

I think your streetside soda vendor needs to get a job at 7-11.

Excellent illustration of how the people are being reated in the name of so called progress. You see Thaksin was only able to buy the rural vote, everyone else he completely ignored, spending vast sums of money on vanity projects like the airport instead. These issues need addressing.

7-11 is better for Thailand than your lady on the street.

Your lady on the street does not collect VAT for the Kingdom.

Your lady does not pay corporate tax to the Kingdom.

Your lady does not pay income tax to the Kingdom.

Your lady does not create jobs. Your lady's activities benefit no one but your lady.

She is a leech.

She needs to be steam rollered for the cause of modernity.

Oh yes very funny. This is a good point though.

The informal economy is vital, and is the backbone of many poorer countries. Seven Eleven isn't. There is no point in taxing people who earn so little. One day they might eventually have a proper shop of their own then they can pay taxes. But if you kill them off in favour of foreign multi-nationals you are destroying the backbone of your economy right at the grass roots level, forever condemning the people to a life of misery and near slavery.

Oh yes very funny. This is a good point though.

The informal economy is vital, and is the backbone of many poorer countries. Seven Eleven isn't. There is no point in taxing people who earn so little. One day they might eventually have a proper shop of their own then they can pay taxes. But if you kill them off in favour of foreign multi-nationals you are destroying the backbone of your economy right at the grass roots level, forever condemning the people to a life of misery and near slavery.

You've got it ass-backwards.

The economy depends on companies like 7-11 to stimulate it. Companies that rent retail space, hire contractors for fit-out, buy refrigerators, freezers, and fixtures, purchase uniforms, advertise, and hire staff -- staff who undoubtedly make MORE from salary (and certainly have more social benefits) than your poor lady selling a couple dozen cans of soda a day on the street -- blocking sidewalks, tying up traffic, and leaving trash around.

You're living in the past, my boy.

Its back to the future for Thailand I hope.

[Bob]

The informal economy is vital, and is the backbone of many poorer countries. Seven Eleven isn't. There is no point in taxing people who earn so little. One day they might eventually have a proper shop of their own then they can pay taxes. But if you kill them off in favour of foreign multi-nationals you are destroying the backbone of your economy right at the grass roots level, forever condemning the people to a life of misery and near slavery.

Sounds so romantic but, unfortunately, totally foreign to modern economic theory. I can't think of a single country which became a developed (or more developed) country that followed your model.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Singapore Pat and Asiaboy you should be ashamed of yourselves !! capitalism it is not !

take it from me as an old socialist from way back. I've studied every capitalist trick in the book and these guys are just the new robber barons in disguise..it's your mum & pop stores that are true capitalism !..shame on you !!

all they want to do is put everyone else out of business until theres just one giant Tescos or one giant 7 Eleven or as Rumpole of the Bailey said when invited at the large country manor to join the ladies in the parlour after dinner.."yes lets join the ladies and make one big lady !"
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee135/lunchtimeobooze/images.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee135/lunchtimeobooze/LESMALL.gif

[quote="Lunchtime O'Booze"]Singapore Pat and Asiaboy you should be ashamed of yourselves !! capitalism it is not !

take it from me as an old socialist from way back. I've studied every capitalist trick in the book and these guys are just the new robber barons in disguise..it's your mum & pop stores that are true capitalism !..shame on you !!

all they want to do is put everyone else out of business until theres just one giant Tescos or one giant 7 Eleven or as Rumpole of the Bailey said when invited at the large country manor to join the ladies in the parlour after dinner.."yes lets join the ladies and make one big lady !"

Spot on, Lunchtime O'Booze!

I cannot think of one of the large multinationals that can't rightly be called a latter day robber baron.
One segment, the financial group just got caught out in America (and elsewhere) when they tried to foist their phony-baloney scam of "mortgage bonds" on the world, lining their own pockets handily, and nearly bringing down the whole house of cards in the process. The last chapter of that story has yet to be written, but taxpayer money, maybe in the trillions, was used by the government to bail out crooks such as those that ran Bear Stearns and other giants. Huge corporations on the public dole.

Well, I hope the above two posters do their share by never eating in a restaurant that is part of a chain, shopping in a supermarket or shop that is owned by a corporation, staying in a hotel that is anything but family-owned, and certainly not taking any flights from major airlines. And they can forget watching movies or listening to music, or using internet access, or anything else that isn't mom-and-pop. Have fun.

Well, I hope the above two posters do their share by never eating in a restaurant that is part of a chain, shopping in a supermarket or shop that is owned by a corporation, staying in a hotel that is anything but family-owned, and certainly not taking any flights from major airlines. And they can forget watching movies or listening to music, or using internet access, or anything else that isn't mom-and-pop. Have fun.

If only the world were as simple as the either/or options you provide!

But even given your lopsided suggestions, I can say that with the exception of using airlines and the internet, I live very happily without the others. I cannot even imagine eating at any chain restaurant. In fact, my doctor takes a very dim view of that one!

And the issue really revolves around having only the very limited options that you propose. How dull!

Yes, you too have fun!

Oh dear. I didn't socialists still existed. Socialist: Someone who studied tricks in a book and wants to decide by committee how others should lead their real lives. I prefer my freedom, so bring on the robber barons, I say!

I'd like to write more but have to go to 7-11 now and buy some Hayek.

Well, I hope the above two posters do their share by never eating in a restaurant that is part of a chain, shopping in a supermarket or shop that is owned by a corporation, staying in a hotel that is anything but family-owned, and certainly not taking any flights from major airlines. And they can forget watching movies or listening to music, or using internet access, or anything else that isn't mom-and-pop. Have fun.

Oh yes I agree with Rawsugar, how pitiful.
I tried Ruth's Chris Steak house once or whatever it's called. I couldn't find anything on the menu I could sensibly eat, the menu was like a list of coronary diseases. I also only stay in family owned hotels, there are some very good ones still around.

I also only stay in family owned hotels, there are some very good ones still around.

And Cedric, if you mention any family owned hotels where you stay the McThinkers will look down their long McNoses and tell you that those places are simply beneath their dignity! I am sure they only stay at the new Hilton and then only in the penthouse suites! Now mind you, the Hilton has lovely offerings, but I didn't move to Thailand to see what I could have in any other big city in the world. What these McPeople really seem to loath is diversity.

And Cedric, if you mention any family owned hotels where you stay the McThinkers will look down their long McNoses and tell you that those places are simply beneath their dignity!

They're just jealous because they can't afford them.

Oh dear. I didn't socialists still existed. Socialist: Someone who studied tricks in a book and wants to decide by committee how others should lead their real lives. I prefer my freedom, so bring on the robber barons, I say!

I'd like to write more but have to go to 7-11 now and buy some Hayek.

What you describe is called "Identification with the Aggressor" in psychology. How you have come to look at this as "your" "freedom" and your free choice, has been exhaustively described by Noam Chomsky in *Manufacturing Consent*.

So who are those guys in Cuba and Venezuela, et cetera, who continue to make people like Bush apoplectic? They are, oh my god no, socialists.

If what you call your "freedom" in capitalism is so obvious to all, then why did the Americans have to topple Allende in Chile who was democratically elected and then install the CIA puppet, Pinochet? This story continues unabated to today. Study the history of Iraq carefully, in particular how Saddam Hussein came to power.

Even John F. Kennedy succumbed to this irrational hysteria when he had the capital of Guyana, Georgetown burned to the ground to keep a "perceived socialist" from coming to power. Read all about that here in the New York Times:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... ton&st=nyt (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DEEDC113FF933A05753C1A9629582 60&scp=1&sq=guyana+a+secret+in+washington&st=nyt)

I tried Ruth's Chris Steak house once or whatever it's called. I couldn't find anything on the menu I could sensibly eat, the menu was like a list of coronary diseases.

You're a bit of a girly man, aren't you Cedric?

I tried Ruth's Chris Steak house once or whatever it's called. I couldn't find anything on the menu I could sensibly eat, the menu was like a list of coronary diseases.

You're a bit of a girly man, aren't you Cedric?

A healthy one at least

I tried Ruth's Chris Steak house once or whatever it's called. I couldn't find anything on the menu I could sensibly eat, the menu was like a list of coronary diseases.

You're a bit of a girly man, aren't you Cedric?

A healthy one at least

Don't be silly. Nothing better for you than a good steak.

[thrillbill]

The informal economy is vital, and is the backbone of many poorer countries. Seven Eleven isn't. There is no point in taxing people who earn so little. One day they might eventually have a proper shop of their own then they can pay taxes. But if you kill them off in favour of foreign multi-nationals you are destroying the backbone of your economy right at the grass roots level, forever condemning the people to a life of misery and near slavery.

Sounds so romantic but, unfortunately, totally foreign to modern economic theory. I can't think of a single country which became a developed (or more developed) country that followed your model.
_________________________

Cedric can get his wish...He needs to live in North Korea. There are no international companies there hogging up the economy. Is that the kind of country we all want?

Cedric can get his wish...He needs to live in North Korea. There are no international companies there hogging up the economy. Is that the kind of country we all want?

And little meat to eat, so he wouldn't be tempted by a nasty steak. Don't know he feels about tree bark, though.

Cedric can get his wish...He needs to live in North Korea. There are no international companies there hogging up the economy. Is that the kind of country we all want?

And little meat to eat, so he wouldn't be tempted by a nasty steak. Don't know he feels about tree bark, though.

I presume our choice in a world created by thrillbill is McDonaldsland or North Korea. Rarely are the options we have in reality so clearcut as to be easily divided into black and white.

George Soros has written eloquently on these very issues and I highly recommend his works to others:

"The prevailing wisdom is that markets are always right. I take the opposition position. I assume that markets are always wrong. Even if my assumption is occasionally wrong, I use it as a working hypothesis."
*Soros on Soros* (1995)

"...as I told Congress, financial markets behaved more like a wrecking ball, swinging from country to country and knocking over the weaker ones."
-on the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis

I wish all the proponents of red meat eating would please speak to my doctors and bring them up to date on your latest medical research in this regard since they seem to have it all backwards from what several of you have to say.

Your doctor has told you that you cannot eat red meat? What a quack.

Your doctor has told you that you cannot eat red meat? What a quack.

I'll tell the lot of them you said so.

Thanks for the tip!

Your doctor has told you that you cannot eat red meat? What a quack.
I'll tell the lot of them you said so.Perhaps RawSugar's doctors are merely out of date. There was a "red meat scare" some years ago, but there is no scientific evidence to suggest that occasionally eating lean red meat has any deleterious effect whatsoever

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/conte ... Cancer.asp (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Eating_Lots_of_Red_Meat_Linked_to_Colon_C ancer.asp)
http://www.prostatecancerfoundation.org ... d_Meat.htm (http://www.prostatecancerfoundation.org/site/c.itIWK2OSG/b.788359/k.6989/Dietary_Fats_and_Red_Meat.htm)

And then there's the "drink lotsa water" myth still beloved by some doctors

http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200207 ... _sys.shtml (http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20020711213420data_trunc_sys.shtml)

Many Thais won't eat beef, however. There seems to be some religious prohibition (usual explanation: "A monk told me"). However when I took the relevant Duty Mem'sahib ( beef abstainer) to Australia and New Zealand last year he was prepared to eat venison but not kangaroo. The ban is apparently on "big" animals. Why a deer wouldn't qualify as "big" beats me

And to the best of my knowledge (back to the topic) they don't sell venison in 7-Eleven stores in Thailand

I don't have any qualms about anyone eating whatever they wish.

All this banter about red meat though reminds me a very amusing incident I experienced while visiting friends in America who live in a wealthy suburb of New York City about ten years ago. On a nice Sunday summer afternoon they took me to a lovely park in their town where an ethnic Chinese family was preparing to barbecue a dog on a charcoal grill. When I arrived the dog was dead but people already there said when they arrived the dog was still alive and the family butchered it on the spot.

Within a few minutes police cars arrived in droves followed by a police helicopter to arrest the merry makers.

If I found that rather amusing, I am not about to be distressed by people eating venison or even rats for that matter. By all means, do your thing. But let me do mine too, OK?

I think it is wonderful that Raw Sugar takes his doctor's advice to heart, and so literally, too!

But I wonder what his doctor says about the practice of sucking the penises of Thai boy prostitutes? Surely they'd prefer their patient to be gorging on the other kind of red meat?

By all means, do your thing. But let me do mine too, OK?Certainly - just don't give us piffle about it being medically correct

I think it is wonderful that Raw Sugar takes his doctor's advice to heart, and so literally, too!

But I wonder what his doctor says about the practice of sucking the penises of Thai boy prostitutes? Surely they'd prefer their patient to be gorging on the other kind of red meat?

More than one of my doctors have told me that sucking the penises of boy prostitutes anywhere is a natural way of controlling blood pressure and reducing tensions. Which makes me think you should seek better medical advice!

By all means, do your thing. But let me do mine too, OK?Certainly - just don't give us piffle about it being medically correct

I don't give medical advice to anyone. And after reading Tobias Schneebaum's excellent book *Keep The River On Your Right* and seeing the outstanding film about him by the same name, I even have no qualms about CANNIBALISM!!! OK?

I don't give medical advice to anyoneReally? So telling us that eating red meat is bad for you because your doctor says so isn't giving medical advice?
I wish all the proponents of red meat eating would please speak to my doctors and bring them up to date on your latest medical research in this regard since they seem to have it all backwards from what several of you have to say.

I don't give medical advice to anyoneReally? So telling us that eating red meat is bad for you because your doctor says so isn't giving medical advice?

You never asked me why my doctors suggested I refrain from eating red meat, among other things. No, I don't tell people what to do with their lives. Certainly I don't care about what they eat. I usually try to follow my own doctor's suggestions but would advise others to listen to whomever they wish, even their shaman if they like.

If you noted, I even wished some of you would have a talk with my doctors to bring them up date on your own findings on this issue.

I wish all the proponents of red meat eating would please speak to my doctors and bring them up to date on your latest medical research in this regard since they seem to have it all backwards from what several of you have to say.

I wish all the proponents of red meat eating would please speak to my doctors and bring them up to date on your latest medical research in this regard since they seem to have it all backwards from what several of you have to say.

Sure, and you still don't know why my doctor's have given me this instruction. Ignorance is bliss I am told!

Ignorance is bliss I am told!You seem to be the expert :idea:

Ignorance is bliss I am told!You seem to be the expert :idea:

Speak for yourself homi, I always try to.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"Oh dear. I didn't socialists still existed."

you are beastly asiagayboy. My doctor was saying only the day..yes Lunchtime I'm afraid you are still a socialist and I want you to keep taking the medication !. ..I think it was socialist..or was it sociopath ?..anyway there isn't any difference is there ?

[dave_tf-old]

I lost my faith with the rise of the Khmer Rouge. Socialists are good to have around, and in abundance--I just don't think they ought to be running anything other than think-tanks and social movements.

Oh Lunchtime, there's no difference between the two. Just look at what Rawsugar writes. He takes himself far too seriously in his writing and he actually believes in Noam Chomsky. That crypto communist was already exposed for the fraud he is in the early eighties. Just like david_tf says, socialists should not be "running anything other than think-tanks and social movements." Like tea time reading circles.

Don't be silly. Nothing better for you than a good steak.

I love a good lean steak like a well hung bit of tenderloin, but it gets bit tricky always trying to tell people how to cook, olive oil, no butter, hold the sauces. Might as well eat at home. I like game the best. Don't drink milk or eat any cheese anymore and nothing processed. Travelling in America is a nightmare for anyone even vaguely interested in their long term health. It's not that good food can't be found it's just very difficult to find unless you are in one place for a long time. Those endless strip malls of poison is wot gets me fuming.

I stayed in Los Angeles for a bit in March in a wonderful little boutique hotel. Oasis, well at least Gallagher was also staying there and the food was so unhealthy we had to send out, for home cooked meals, they couldn't even get a sandwich right. And Noel is English, that's how bad it was.

I think the Thais eat well, though I avoid too much coconut.

Just look at what Rawsugar writes. He takes himself far too seriously in his writing and he actually believes in Noam Chomsky. That crypto communist was already exposed for the fraud he is in the early eighties.

I guess that's why Noam Chomsky is the seventh most quoted man in history. Look, you missed the humour of my bringing him up in the first place. Someone, I forget who, uses a quote from Chomsky as his "signature" to his posts. Now I find that really funny! You never reacted to my quotes from George Soros who on occasion makes Chomsky appear to be right wing. Did you ever read Soros book *The Alchemy of Finance*?

But I am not interested in capitalism, socialism or communism. I even wonder if any "ism" interests me.

Actually, I don't take myself seriously at all. I never stand on principle and I am totally irresponsible. One of my great professors said: "I don't agree with anything I said yesterday".

If you knew just how funny I find many of the posts here, I seriously suspect you be even more upset with me. But no, I take very little in life very seriously. Why should I? Soon we'll all be dead. In this regard I am closest to the ancient Indian philosopher Charvaka.

And if all this seems strange to you, then take a look at something rather simple from Soros: "People's understanding of the world in which they live cannot correspond to the facts and be complete and coherent at the same time. Insofar as people's thinking is confined to the facts, it is not sufficient to reach decisions; and insofar as it serves as the basis of decisions, it cannot be confined to the facts." -George Soros, *The Alchemy of Finance*

[Marsilius]

I even wonder if any "ism" interests me.

"Jism" is quite nice.

PS See below!

Socialists are good to have around, and in abundanceThe Limousine Left is one of my favourite groups (or is that targets?)

Soros. Yes I tried to read one of his books once. I got halfway through. The man is good at making money but fails miserably as a writer. I prefer Marquis de Sade for my bedtime reading. He always provides great inspiration for my next adventure in Slutsville.

Soros. Yes I tried to read one of his books once. I got halfway through. The man is good at making money but fails miserably as a writer. I prefer Marquis de Sade for my bedtime reading. He always provides great inspiration for my next adventure in Slutsville.

Soros isn't for everyone, but his writing is comprehensive and brilliant. Whereas even by his own admission he has made many investment miscalculations, I am hard pressed to fault his writing.
Yes, I love de Sade. Have you read Klossowski's *Sade mon prochain*?

No, never heard of Klossowski and my French is too rusty anyway, I think.

Now, how on earth did we get from 7-11 to this? :-)