Police Corruption in Thailand

I am writing this post partially in response to those (such as Thaksin) who think that collectivization in Thailand will cure everything.

But corruption is an issue which will not go away. It's one of the main reasons foreign investors avoid certain countries. (Will they get their money back? etc.)

I recently had an experience with the Thai police. Actually, it was my boyf Aod, who was visiting home in the far north and decided to do something nice for his Younger Brother, who has recently (and belatedly) begun studying the 7th grade in Chiang Rai, and who decided to ordain as a novice monk in order to avoid much of the hassle coming from boarding schools.

So, Aod took his younger brother to Mae Sai, and then into Burma, and they had fun exploring. They came back into Thailand, and were driving home in Aod's Honda Jazz when they were stopped at an inspection point.

The policeman running the show charged Aod with "aiding the immigration of aliens!" The charge was totally absurd, as both Aod and his brother were born in Thailand, and are Thai citizens. But the cop pretended to be outraged that younger brother's ID card had been altered with Liquid Paper. (Actually, the abbot at the monastery did that.)

Frantic and furious phone calls followed. The village headman weighed in, to no avail. My former boyfriend weighed in, and demanded to know the cop's name -- the request was refused.

Aod and his younger brother spent almost the entire day at that police checkpoint.

Why?

My former boyfriend explained it as follows: "The cop is totally corrupt, and looking to shake down innocent citizens. He spots these two BOYS without an adult companion, and sniffs good takings. Especially because they are driving a CAR -- they are RICH hill-tribe boys." So he busts them on the flimiest excuse imaginable -- and has them sit in his boiling-hot waiting-room all day.

Price of exit: 5000 baht. And the policeman is still nameless, and seeking revenge is futile.

Now, there is a TRUE story for you!

[krobbie]

And this goes on daily because they see all the superior officers doing it right up the chain of command. No wonder. The brown shirt and pants give one a licence to do as they please from the moment they get them.

I have been victim to the ways of these guys on two trips. The first time my then bf and I were stopped. They check his licence. He no have. Cost B400 and on we went driving the motocy. We got stopped later the same day but bf shows the ticket we have already paid si it is okay to still drive off without further payment and no licence.

Second we are already stopped but are in a no entry road behind a produce truck. Police say this will cost B400. I say "no have" but will follow to the police station and talk there. They stop half way to the police station and say ... " aaaaaa mmm eeeee ... maybe just B200". I scratch around in my bag for some coins and bf does the same. We proffer these and quick as lightning we are on our way.

The shakedowns are an everyday occurrence and I am sure most often when someone is stopped, tea money is paid.

What to do? Absolutely nothing one can. This is called one's livelihood. Admittedly both times we were in the wrong and just gave opportunity to the lads. They must have eyes like hawks.

Cheers
krobbie

maybe this is crazy, but am I tyhe alone one, to which the military to come back. ?. Democracy? now? No!

[francois]

In the incidents above one Thai had an altered ID card trying to cross the border and another Thai had no license while driving a motorcycle. Is this not called stupid in any language? What cop or border agent is going to give them a smile and not a fine or hassle them? Fact is, almost any Thai driving a vehicle should be fined for their dangerous driving habits.
Having said that, the same same treatment is given to blacks in the USA and given to "gringos" in Mexico.
This is not just in Thailand, it is common everywhere in the world.

[Brad the Impala]

I have been victim to the ways of these guys on two trips. The first time my then bf and I were stopped. They check his licence. He no have. Cost B400 and on we went driving the motocy. We got stopped later the same day but bf shows the ticket we have already paid si it is okay to still drive off without further payment and no licence.

Second we are already stopped but are in a no entry road behind a produce truck. Police say this will cost B400. I say "no have" but will follow to the police station and talk there. They stop half way to the police station and say ... " aaaaaa mmm eeeee ... maybe just B200". I scratch around in my bag for some coins and bf does the same. We


You complain about corruption and being "victims", but you acknowledge your bf is in the wrong in both cases. Would you prefer the corruption or for your boyfriend to be taken to court and/or jail. Talk about having your cake and wanting to eat it!

... as an avowed Republican you're in favour of law'n'order - not like those bleeding heart namby-pamby Democrats?

... as an avowed Republican you're in favour of law'n'order - not like those bleeding heart namby-pamby Democrats?

Yes, Henry! The Americans never tire of telling us about their "zero tolerance" policies regarding "law and order". Are you turning into a "bleeding heart liberal"?

Henry, you claim the charge of the policeman was totally absurd yet George W. Bush spent trillions of US dollars on a war because he claimed "weapons of mass destruction" existed where there were none.
At least in your friend's case the ID card was in fact altered, and this is real evidence unlike what Bush offered.

"Lock 'em up! Throw the key away!" It's the American way!

[bkkguy]

Thai cops are badly paid, badly trained and very poorly funded. Blame the government, not the cop who asks you for 200 baht.

and the cops and government officials who are making hundreds of thousands or millions of Baht from corruption - how is any government ever going to afford to pay them a "living wage"?

many workers in Thailand are poorly paid, but abuse of position and corruption should not be palmed off as OK for the "poor" policeman! the average food stall owner is poor as well - can he start shaking you down for 200 Baht for using too many condiments on your noodles? and when your "poor" building security guard starts demanding 500 Baht a month otherwise he may be looking the other way when someone breaks into your apartment - is that OK?

if nothing else police shakedowns and corruption breed contempt for the law and the government and attitudes and expectations like those above and in the end things like the Songkran road toll - the government can pass any laws they like but they will be selectively enforced by the police for their own benefit and not respected by the public!

bkkguy

This is not NECESSARILY a matter of corruption in the case that Henry Cate has cited.

One of the accused had an ID card that had been altered. Certainly it is not legal to alter a national ID card. Isn't this a big issue also along the border the USA shares with Mexico? Do the Texas Rangers show leniency in these matters when they hear that a "pastor" might have altered an ID card?

Imagine the uproar and support the policeman would have had if this incident took place not in a car near the politically sensitive Burmese border, but in a bar in Sunee Plaza.

[Marsilius]

Another instance of police malpractice [posted here before in another context, but a very long time ago]...

Maybe ten years ago I was staying at Mr Mac's Hotel in Pattaya and had a friend from Chang Mai staying with me in my room. He was actually 21 years old, as I recall, though looked slight and younger - but he had geuine ID to prove his age with him.

Anyway, one day we got back to the hotel and I was told by the receptionist that the police had stopped by, while we had been out, to call on me in the room as they were enquiring about the boy's age.

As I was pretty well acquainted with the management of the (gay) Sky Bar on the top floor - David and Allan, at the time - I rushed upstairs to consult them. Foolishly, I had assumed that because the boy had cast-iron proof of age, all would be OK. Not so, advised David: the crucial thing was to get back down to my hotel room before the police returned. We did so, conducted a thorough search - and, lo and behold! - there. concealed out of sight, we discovered a tube of KY which was neither mine nor the boy's and that most definitely had not been there before we'd gone out for the day. According to David, it was pretty standard police procedure in Pattaya to ensure an even harsher conviction by ratcheting up the level of seriousness of the alleged crime (which, of course, had not even been committed in the first place - the boy being 21 years old) - in this case, presumably, by introducing a melodramatic indication of buggery! (Incidentally, he added that, in this case we were lucky - it's often drugs that are deposited as alleged "evidence".)

We immediately removed the new "evidence" (some smartass will no doubt now say that that's where I committed a crime!) and David made a call to his police "contact" - i.e. a senior policeman who "looked after" the bar's interest in return for a gratuity. We had no more visits from any policemen and heard nothing more about the case. But it was, I can assure you, a very, very worrying few days.

(One last point, by the way, in case anyone starts thinking that I and my friend had been spotted on CCTVs or something like that. It turned out that the receptionist had a grudge against the hotel and was keen to besmirch its reputation and so it was SHE who had made the phone call to alert the police and cause trouble, even though we'd shown her the boy's ID on arrival.)

Another instance of police malpractice [posted here before in another context, but a very long time ago]...

Maybe ten years ago I was staying at Mr Mac's Hotel in Pattaya and had a friend from Chang Mai staying with me in my room. He was actually 21 years old, as I recall, though looked slight and younger - but he had geuine ID to prove his age with him.



Marsilius, the case you personally cite was a "set up" as described. Evidence was planted in your room according to what you have related in an attempt to "frame" you. You also state that in your incident your friend possessed "genuine ID" which I presume to mean that it had not be altered with Liquid Paper.

In the case that Henry Cate has described, the boy's "ID card had been altered with Liquid Paper" quoting his exact phrase. It is unreasonable to expect someone in authority to overlook obviously altered national identity documents. How long do you think you could travel on your passport or other national ID if it had been obviously altered with Liquid Paper? Try that sometime when traveling to Henry Cate's beloved America!

The fact that "the abbot at the monastery did that", once again quoting Henry Cate, is no defense. One should never travel, all the more so across a national border, with identification which has been tampered with.

People on this board get absolutely hysterical about boys who have ID cards that have been altered in Sunee Plaza yet remain silent when the case involves a person crossing an international border, in this case with Burma, where tensions are already very high and the slightest infraction can arouse suspicion.

[Geezer]

[quote="RawSugar"]This is not NECESSARILY a matter of corruption in the case that Henry Cate has cited. quote]

тАж and the cop refused to give his name, and, I assume, did not give a receipt?

[Marsilius]

RawSugar: you will notice that I deliberately did not refer to my case as "corruption" but as "malpractice" - a somewhat mild choice of noun, some might think!

OK, the police had not yet got around to the stage of asking me for money - but I have no doubt that those prepared to fake evidence would be equally prepared to indulge in a little (or not so little!) shakedown.

I do, though, accept your point that stopping the boy on the Burma border to investigate the alterred ID is certainly justified in itself.

This is not NECESSARILY a matter of corruption in the case that Henry Cate has cited. quote]

├п┬┐┬╜ and the cop refused to give his name, and, I assume, did not give a receipt?

I have no idea of what Thai law is in regard to people in authority revealing their names to the accused. Henry Cate never indicated that the fine collected was an illegal one only commenting that it was the "price of exit". If Henry's friend had any doubts about the legality of the situation, he could have let the law follow it course. Everyone in Thailand knows how that works. Was it worth the 5000 Baht to be able to put the matter behind him? He must have thought so.

What would you do Geezer if caught near the border with your identification that had been tampered with? Put some Liquid Paper on your identification paper details and then enter the USA or England or any Farangland you can think of!

It has been reported many times in America that the police will cover their badge numbers with ribbon or tape to conceal their identity. I wonder what the response would be if a person born in America of Latino ancestry who had altered documents asked for the name of the Border Patrol officer in Texas who stopped him? And the USA-Mexico border is hardly the political flash point that the Thai-Burmese border is today!

Do FBI agents have to provide their names when breaking down doors making their flamboyant arrests quite frequently of people who are innocent? Americans use the excuse of "catching terrorists" to absolve themselves of all manner of internationally accepted procedure including extra judicial abductions, in many cases of totally innocent people. The news is full of it.

But the shoe is always different on the other foot. Huh?

I think the point most think of when talking about police in Thailand is bribery. Not sure if that is malpractice or corruption. But the difference than in the west is that in many cases the police, not a separate legal system, charge the crime and collect the fine or do not charge the crime if bribed enough. It is not really if a crime is committed or not, in my view.

Blaming the government for not paying the police enough is a bit ridiculous isn't it? Apparently the government does not want to change this. The question to ask is why. Why does the government not feel this is an important problem to solve?

RawSugar: you will notice that I deliberately did not refer to my case as "corruption" but as "malpractice" - a somewhat mild choice of noun, some might think!

OK, the police had not yet got around to the stage of asking me for money - but I have no doubt that those prepared to fake evidence would be equally prepared to indulge in a little (or not so little!) shakedown.

I do, though, accept your point that stopping the boy on the Burma border to investigate the alterred ID is certainly justified in itself.

Marsilius, the big different between your incident and that of Henry's friend is that you discovered that "evidence" was being planted in your room. In the case of Henry's friend, he was traveling with ID that was tampered with. Your friend was not in possession of ID that was suspect to begin with.

Henry seems shocked over his incident. I only wish to draw attention to the fact that altered national identity documents will cause a problem for someone anywhere in the world. I really wonder what Henry thinks happens in his beloved USA when they are discovered with papers that have been tampered with? I think that any person ever caught in a similar situation in America would have felt absolutely delighted if he could have put the matter behind him for a mere 5000 Baht. The alternative there would be far more severe even if the proceedings were all aboveboard.

The ribbon's that are put over there badges are usually black and are put there for respect or remembrance of a fallen officer.
Not to hide there badge number.

[Shuee]

not only do we have to put up with the sad & annoying incidents listed above, we also have to contend with fake cops, who set up stings also

anyone have stories of calling the fake cops bluff & getting away with it, now that would be so satifying, you maybe the real cops would charge 10,000bt to deal with this case hahahahaha :bounce: TIT!!!

The ribbon's that are put over there badges are usually black and are put there for respect or remembrance of a fallen officer.
Not to hide there badge number.

In the USA, the ribbon is under no circumstances ever to conceal the badge number. But on the contrary, it is a ploy used by corrupt police to conceal their identity while committing criminal acts in name of the "law". I'll bet you never heard of that happening in America either. Huh?

The American Noam Chomsky once pointed out that if the laws used at Nuremberg were applied, every American president since Truman would hang.

If this was NOT a case of corruption and a police shakedown, then the charge would have been "carrying an altered ID" and would have been filed against the younger, novice monk brother (age around 14, I think). But the charge was an absurd one: "attempting to smuggle in illegal aliens" -- and was filed against the older brother.

I'm sorry so many seem to find this situation absolutely normal, "understanding Thailand" and all that. Every Thai involved at the time (my former boyfriend, my "executive assistant" and so forth) were just fuming mad. After all, the village headman had already verified that both Aod and his brother were Thai. Since the ID card was altered by the temple, I could well understand an honest cop letting them off with a warning.

But instead, 5000 baht was demanded, with heavy hints that it might be as much as 20,000!

The instant my former boyfriend realized that the cop in charge was NOT going to give anyone his name, he realized how corrupt the situation was, and gave the advice another poster did: "DON'T PAY THE BASTARD." ("Let the law take its course....") Alas, the cop had the gun and the jail cell to back him up.

And as I said, 5000 was the "price of exit" from the corrupt bastard's clutches.
Does anyone think that someone who was really smuggling in Burmese refugees would be let go with a fine of 5,000 baht?

[Bob]

I'll bet you never heard of that happening in America either. Huh?


Oh, it's happened here in the USA (and Europe too) but rather rare compared to Thailand. The probably biggest reason for that is not that the USA cops are that much more ethically upright but rather for the simple reason that USA cops are paid a reasonable wage in the first place. Being fairly broke is a fairly good motivator plus it's a lot easier when almost everybody else is doing it (rather systemic in Thailand).

[cottmann]

I think the point most think of when talking about police in Thailand is bribery. Not sure if that is malpractice or corruption. But the difference than in the west is that in many cases the police, not a separate legal system, charge the crime and collect the fine or do not charge the crime if bribed enough. It is not really if a crime is committed or not, in my view.

Blaming the government for not paying the police enough is a bit ridiculous isn't it? Apparently the government does not want to change this. The question to ask is why. Why does the government not feel this is an important problem to solve?

As Sir Francis Bacon said, "One of the Seven [wise men of Greece] was wont to say: That laws were like cobwebs, where the small flies are caught and the great break through."

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

personally I've always believed that what westerners call "bribery" in Thailand is not so-it's something else. A system that has existed for eons that has worked perfectly well and really is quite a fair way in that the person asked to pay an indulgence is usually quickly assessed as to their ability to what they can pay and the price is adjusted accordingly.

It's a way that all officialdom subsidizes it's pay and quite often necessary for them to survive.

However it has become more out of hand over the years and I see the hand of insensitive farangs behind this along with blatant corruption at the top..ala Thaksin etc whose overt actions have set the pace.

Much as it unsettles me to agree with Homintern..yes please let's not start on the policing forces of the USA or the UK !! :cyclopsani:

Why, I think it's quite handy to be able to pay 100 baht to a policeman directly, instead of making a tedious trip to the police station. Knock on wood, but I've only ever had to pay something when I actually did something wrong. Like crossing a red light or a white line. I've driven through Thailand from north to south and east to west. I made sure my paperwork was always in order. In all these years I've been checked many times, but I never had to pay anything when I hadn't actually done anything wrong.

... there's a story in this week's Economist about corruption in the Thai police (is it the worst in the world is a question that's posed, with "probably" as the answer) - http://www.economist.com/world/asia/dis ... d=11058580 (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11058580)

I don't like this kind of thread. Us foregners are guests in this country and we should respect the local people and their way of doing things. I know some of you won't agree but that's what I think. I would not be surprized some of you guys get deported for talking bad about the Thai police.

I don't like this kind of thread. Us foregners are guests in this country and we should respect the local people and their way of doing things. I know some of you won't agree but that's what I think. I would not be surprized some of you guys get deported for talking bad about the Thai police.You mean, if you don't love Thailand there's a flight leaving for your home country real soon now? And your own country doesn't welcome negative comments from visitors either?

[Marsilius]

I don't like this kind of thread. Us foregners are guests in this country and we should respect the local people and their way of doing things...

Being a guest in a foreign country does not absolve one from knowing the difference between right and wrong or mean that one should accord automatic "respect" to the host nation's ways of doing things.

Would you have felt that way if you had been a "guest" in Nazi-ruled Germany in the 1930s?

I love it. I think it's one of the best things about Thailand.
Sometimes they go a bit too far, as apparently in this case, but in general I'd rather be able to pay a copy a minimal amount t.....

I do wonder though, if they'd paid the guy a thousand baht at the beginning if it might not have all been over much quicker.

That canard about being a guest. As a tourist you are a customer, you pay taxes (VAT, amongst others) and you should be free to criticize bad service, compare this country to other countries and things like that.

[kip_la-old]

I don't live in Thailand (yet) but I am familiar with the system of bribes that make the LOS what it is. In the U.S., I have never heard of police officers demanding cash after stopping someone for whatever reason. If you solicit sex from an undercover cop however, you may lose your car, have your name and photo published in your local newspaper, your name and address registered online as a sex offender, and pay a substantial monetary fine. In Thailand we have come to expect the right to off the boy of our choice even though prostitution remains illegal. We seem to have no problem with the BIB looking the other way (after receiving their dues from the bar of course) so that hot young boys are available to perform any sexual fantasy we can imagine. Some will allow you to fondle and test the merchandise inside the bar if that is what is desired. True there are stories of BIB setting up situations to trap farangs in sex crimes, but these almost always involve a boy that is of questionable age. Stay clear of that and you are pretty free to bend and break prostitution laws in the LOS. There is no other place like Thailand and the occasional bribe for some imaginary offense may be the small price we pay to openly indulge in the land of fantasy.

I don't live in Thailand (yet) but I am familiar with the system of bribes that make the LOS what it is. In the U.S., I have never heard of police officers demanding cash after stopping someone for whatever reason. If you solicit sex from an undercover cop however, you may lose your car, have your name and photo published in your local newspaper, your name and address registered online as a sex offender, and pay a substantial monetary fine. In Thailand we have come to expect the right to off the boy of our choice even though prostitution remains illegal. We seem to have no problem with the BIB looking the other way (after receiving their dues from the bar of course) so that hot young boys are available to perform any sexual fantasy we can imagine. Some will allow you to fondle and test the merchandise inside the bar if that is what is desired. True there are stories of BIB setting up situations to trap farangs in sex crimes, but these almost always involve a boy that is of questionable age. Stay clear of that and you are pretty free to bend and break prostitution laws in the LOS. There is no other place like Thailand and the occasional bribe for some imaginary offense may be the small price we pay to openly indulge in the land of fantasy.

Great observation kip_la! This puts many things beautifully into perspective.

[Marsilius]

I don't live in Thailand (yet) but I am familiar with the system of bribes that make the LOS what it is. In the U.S., I have never heard of police officers demanding cash after stopping someone for whatever reason. If you solicit sex from an undercover cop however, you may lose your car, have your name and photo published in your local newspaper, your name and address registered online as a sex offender, and pay a substantial monetary fine. In Thailand we have come to expect the right to off the boy of our choice even though prostitution remains illegal. We seem to have no problem with the BIB looking the other way (after receiving their dues from the bar of course) so that hot young boys are available to perform any sexual fantasy we can imagine. Some will allow you to fondle and test the merchandise inside the bar if that is what is desired. True there are stories of BIB setting up situations to trap farangs in sex crimes, but these almost always involve a boy that is of questionable age. Stay clear of that and you are pretty free to bend and break prostitution laws in the LOS. There is no other place like Thailand and the occasional bribe for some imaginary offense may be the small price we pay to openly indulge in the land of fantasy.

In other words, you appear to be saying that, as a general principle, two wrongs (in this case (1) farang breaking the law on prostitution, and (2) police taking bribes) make a right...

Not sure I agree on that one.

I don't live in Thailand (yet) but I am familiar with the system of bribes that make the LOS what it is. In the U.S., I have never heard of police officers demanding cash after stopping someone for whatever reason. If you solicit sex from an undercover cop however, you may lose your car, have your name and photo published in your local newspaper, your name and address registered online as a sex offender, and pay a substantial monetary fine. In Thailand we have come to expect the right to off the boy of our choice even though prostitution remains illegal. We seem to have no problem with the BIB looking the other way (after receiving their dues from the bar of course) so that hot young boys are available to perform any sexual fantasy we can imagine. Some will allow you to fondle and test the merchandise inside the bar if that is what is desired. True there are stories of BIB setting up situations to trap farangs in sex crimes, but these almost always involve a boy that is of questionable age. Stay clear of that and you are pretty free to bend and break prostitution laws in the LOS. There is no other place like Thailand and the occasional bribe for some imaginary offense may be the small price we pay to openly indulge in the land of fantasy.

In other words, you appear to be saying that, as a general principle, two wrongs (in this case (1) farang breaking the law on prostitution, and (2) police taking bribes) make a right...

Not sure I agree on that one.

You're putting words in his mouth Marsilius. If all of the laws everywhere were enforced all of the time almost every human alive would be in prison or executed. If you take exception to what kip_la has said, then you certainly will dislike what I propose: abolish all laws against drugs and sex everywhere, and that only for starters. But alas we have to live in a real world in which we all constantly make compromises. I think the ones kip-la has highlighted are rather acceptable. And what choice is there in any event? It is the situation as it exists and lots of people are having a whale of a time living under the given conditions, farang and Thai alike.

Noam Chomsky has commented on several occasions that if the the Americans enforced the laws the allies used at Nuremberg then every American president since Truman would have to be executed. I don't think English political leaders would fare much better, or any of that sorry and dismal lot who are comically called "world leaders" and who have only succeeded in leading us to the brink of oblivion. They certainly are not bothered with pondering the niceties of "rights" and "wrongs".

[kip_la-old]

I am not saying corruption is right but you will find it in some form or another in every country. When the bribes and corruption benefit us with a system that looks the other way when we flagrantly disregard Thai laws, you won't find many protests from the visitors and foreign residents in Thailand that indulge in that activity. It is specifically why many live and vacation here. You simply have to weigh the trade offs in every country. I have a bf in LOS and I have never offed a boy for sex there but I still find the system appears to be quite convenient for those who want that option. That immunity however comes with a price.

I am not saying corruption is right but you will find it in some form or another in every country. When the bribes and corruption benefit us with a system that looks the other way when we flagrantly disregard Thai laws, you won't find many protests from the visitors and foreign residents in Thailand that indulge in that activity. It is specifically why many live and vacation here. You simply have to weigh the trade offs in every country. I have a bf in LOS and I have never offed a boy for sex there but I still find the system appears to be quite convenient for those who want that option. That immunity however comes with a price.

You are absolutely correct kip-la. And it is indeed a very small price to pay for all the pleasures we derive here. This may be one of the last places on earth that sex is still relatively simple and easy and for vast numbers of people. If all these smart asses can tell me of another place more ideal for our sexual interests (as well as life in general), then I'll move there. Not so long ago there were many choices, and even Thailand was far better 10 to 15 years ago than it is today. But there we are...

[Marsilius]

My point was that two wrongs = two wrongs (and not a right).

It is wrong for police to take bribes.

It is equally wrong to break the law.

HOWEVER, we all have a choice of whether to risk breaking the law or not and I suspect that most of us on this board - and that includes me! - do choose to take that risk.

There is an old saying: "if you can't do the time, don't commit the crime". Most of us are currently prepared to take that risk. And until the Thai police start enforcing the anti-prostitution regulations (rather than either (1) ignoring them, or (2) accepting bribes either from bar owners or clients to ignore the laws) I suspect that we will continue to do so.

HOWEVER, we all have a choice of whether to risk breaking the law or not and I suspect that most of us on this board - and that includes me! - do choose to take that risk. As a gay male growing up at a time when homosexual sex was always illegal (a not uncommon experience for many posters, I'd think), I've always believed that obeying the law (any law) is optional

[kip_la-old]

Marsilius

Indeed, two wrongs = two wrongs but the reason you are prepared to "take that risk" is because corruption and bribes greatly minimize that risk. After the bar owners make their contributions to the BIB retirement fund you are relatively free to "commit the crime" with impunity. When bribes work to our benefit we are silent. Just noting a point of hypocrisy for those that protest too much.

Laws should be respected, providing the law is appropriate & worthy or respect.

e.g.
Laws preventing burgulary = good
Laws prohibiting homosexual intercourse = bad
Laws prohibiting prostitution = bad.

The government of any nation has no place interfering in relationships or commercial transactions which may take place between CONSENTING ADULTS that have no adverse affect on any third party.

Laws should be respected, providing the law is appropriate & worthy or respect.So, basically, rely on your moral instincts and ignore the law?

[cottmann]

That canard about being a guest. As a tourist you are a customer, you pay taxes (VAT, amongst others) and you should be free to criticize bad service, compare this country to other countries and things like that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, particularly in light of TAT's continuing advertising campaign and its implied and explicit promises. In 2006, the Tourist Authority of Thailand proudly noted that FutureBrand (a major global brand consultancy) had named Thailand as тАЬBest Country BrandтАЭ in terms of value for money. The AuthorityтАЩs then-Deputy Governor for Marketing Communications, Suraphon Svatasreni remarked: тАЬIt is heartening to see that Thailand has such high level of recognition in one of the most important decision-making criteria for global travelers.тАЭ It seems to me that TAT is implicitly recognizing that anyone who comes to Thailand as a consequence of its advertising/marketing is a PAYING customer, not a NON-PAYING guest.

It is equally wrong to break the law.

HOWEVER, we all have a choice of whether to risk breaking the law or not and I suspect that most of us on this board - and that includes me! - do choose to take that risk.



You would have been a fine Nazi Marsillius! Even Goebbles couldn't have asked for more from any of his citizens.

[Marsilius]

You fail to note, my dear RawSugar, that earlier in this thread, responding to the claim that as "guests" in Thailand we are obliged to respect the country's laws, I observed that:

"Being a guest in a foreign country does not absolve one from knowing the difference between right and wrong or mean that one should accord automatic "respect" to the host nation's ways of doing things. Would you have felt that way if you had been a "guest" in Nazi-ruled Germany in the 1930s?"

I also hold by my later assertion. Breaking the laws of a democratically elected government (e.g. Thailand and - God help us! - Nazi Germany) is wrong. BUT one may choose to do so in one's own interest (out of self-preservation, belief in a higher authority than the state, or merely lust for a Thai boy) - and at one's own risk - if one is prepared to face up to the consequences in law. That is the "bargain" one strikes with the state - I won't obey your laws but, if you catch me, you can punish me.

Breaking the laws of a democratically elected government (e.g. Thailand and - God help us! - Nazi Germany) is wrong.

so its ok to break the laws if the country is not a democracy?

[Marsilius]

That adds a different dimension to the question.

As I have said, it is "wrong" to break the laws of a legitimately elected government (that supposedly represents the will of the majority of the population among whom we live). But we all can (and many of us do) choose to run the risk of punishment by breaking those laws from time to time. In other words, we exercise our legitimate choice to do "wrong" and run the risk of punishment as a consequence.

But what, as you say, if a government is not a "legitimate" (i.e. democratically elected) one? Well, in the first place, many of those which we glibly assume to be illegitimate may not necessarily be so.

The Nazis came to government legitimately, for example, and then passed (legitimate) laws banning further national elections: were they thereafter an illegitimate government? (They were, of course, recognised as legitimate - and held legitimately responsible for causing World War II - by all the world's other governments.)

The Soviet government might seem a simpler example. It came to power in 1917 not through elections but by force. So illegitimate, huh? BUT it subsequently held (farcically unfair) elections and got "elected". Did it thus legitimise itself? The rest of the world's governments seemed to think so and recognised it until the collapse of communism.

Even the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia - not elected and never even bothering to go through some farcical fake election to "legitimise" their rule - were recognised by most other governments. Were they therefore the legitimate government of Cambodia? Ought they to have been obeyed?

The post-Thaksin Thai military government was not elected and yet was recognised by other countries. Were its regulations illegitimate? Ought they not therefore to have been obeyed?

As we can all see, this is a very complex issue. But I stand by my simple premise: it is wrong to disobey the law - but we all, in reality, have an option to disobey the law (whether on moral or more narrowly selfish grounds) and to face the consequences imposed upon us by the state (whether legitimate or illegitimately created) if we do so.

"The law" forms a contract (I am almost inclined to say, in practice, a negotiable contract) that we have with society - and one sign that society implicity recognises that fact is that it "grades" the punishments for our disobedience. In other words, if simple disobedience of any law was the crime in itself, all lawbreakers could just be executed (or whatever) for doing that (i.e. for simply defying the authority of the state). But the act of defiance is not the crime in itself - burglary is, or violating traffic regulations, or murder, or whatever, and that fact is recognised in that the punishment is varied according to the perceived seriousness of the actual offence. Society is thus virtually saying to us that it is happier (or, more accurately perhaps, less sad) for us to break some laws than others.

That adds a different dimension to the question.

As I have said, it is "wrong" to break the laws of a legitimately elected government (that supposedly represents the will of the majority of the population among whom we live). But we all can (and many of us do) choose to run the risk of punishment by breaking those laws from time to time. In other words, we exercise our legitimate choice to do "wrong" and run the risk of punishment as a consequence.

But what, as you say, if a government is not a "legitimate" (i.e. democratically elected) one? Well, in the first place, many of those which we glibly assume to be illegitimate may not necessarily be so.

The Nazis came to government legitimately, for example, and then passed (legitimate) laws banning further national elections: were they thereafter an illegitimate government? (They were, of course, recognised as legitimate - and held legitimately responsible for causing World War II - by all the world's other governments.)

The Soviet government might seem a simpler example. It came to power in 1917 not through elections but by force. So illegitimate, huh? BUT it subsequently held (farcically unfair) elections and got "elected". Did it thus legitimise itself? The rest of the world's governments seemed to think so and recognised it until the collapse of communism.

Even the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia - not elected and never even bothering to go through some farcical fake election to "legitimise" their rule - were recognised by most other governments. Were they therefore the legitimate government of Cambodia? Ought they to have been obeyed?

The post-Thaksin Thai military government was not elected and yet was recognised by other countries. Were its regulations illegitimate? Ought they not therefore to have been obeyed?

As we can all see, this is a very complex issue. But I stand by my simple premise: it is wrong to disobey the law - but we all, in reality, have an option to disobey the law (whether on moral or more narrowly selfish grounds) and to face the consequences imposed upon us by the state (whether legitimate or illegitimately created) if we do so.

"The law" forms a contract (I am almost inclined to say, in practice, a negotiable contract) that we have with society - and one sign that society implicity recognises that fact is that it "grades" the punishments for our disobedience. In other words, if simple disobedience of any law was the crime in itself, all lawbreakers could just be executed (or whatever) for doing that (i.e. for simply defying the authority of the state). But the act of defiance is not the crime in itself - burglary is, or violating traffic regulations, or murder, or whatever, and that fact is trecognised in that the punishment is varied according to the perceived seriousness of the actual offence. Society is thus virtually saying to us that it is happier (or, more accurately perhaps, less sad) for us to break some laws than others.

How is it possible to disagree with what you have written in your excruciatingly precise statement? You have left a bit of room for everyone and I rather like that style from someone as cerebral as you.

But alas, I am not the Apollonian that you appear to be, tending rather with every bone in my body toward the Dionysian with all of its implications and consequences. But you have left just a bit of room for me as well, and I thank you for that.

Marsilius,

I think your original "instance of police malpractice" may have coloured your judgement and that you are reading far more into it than there probably was; there are a couple of alternatives which are at least as plausible, if not considerably more credible. It just does not ring true and it seems more likely (at least from what you have said) that it was you the receptionist did not like, rather than the hotel.

Since the receptionist had called the police and, presumably, let them in to your room, she could just have easily have been the one trying to set you up; the police are hardly likely to have wasted their time hiding a tube of KY - if they had been interested in "ratcheting up the level of seriousness" they could just as easily have left a couple of thai-sticks or yaa-baa tablets behind. A tube of KY would have been useless as evidence of anything, as the police would have known.

Alternatively, she may have just made up the complete story about the police visit to getrid of you, and there never was one at all.

I knew David reasonably well and I can assure you that he had no senior police contacts (Masons, yes; police, no!).The "senior policeman who "looked after" the bar's interest in return for a gratuity" was a junior constable.

[Marsilius]

I can only repeat what David told me at the time - that his (allegedly senior) police contact had confirmed that the police were involved and that he had persuaded them to desist from the enquiry.

Maybe David's business partner at the time, Allan, who is, by all accounts, still in Pattaya, can throw some light on the matter - at least of the level of the Sky Bar's police contacts - if he reads this? Or maybe the previous owner, Ken, can enlighten us?

[Shuee]

well ther you go - people are promotion corruption by throwing money at BIB for maybe not even doing anything wrong, just to avoid a trip to the copshop!!!!!!!!!!!!

well ther you go - people are promotion corruption by throwing money at BIB for maybe not even doing anything wrong, just to avoid a trip to the copshop!!!!!!!!!!!!The Thai police regularly shake down motorcycle riders around lunchtime so they can get some money for food. It's easier to pay up than protesting

well ther you go - people are promotion corruption by throwing money at BIB for maybe not even doing anything wrong, just to avoid a trip to the copshop!!!!!!!!!!!!The Thai police regularly shake down motorcycle riders around lunchtime so they can get some money for food. It's easier to pay up than protesting

Why is this so hard for so many to understand?

Probably the tube of KY was a left over from a previous guest hehe. And why do Thai boys prefer KY over much higher quality lubes? KY is nasty stuff!

Probably the tube of KY was a left over from a previous guest hehe. And why do Thai boys prefer KY over much higher quality lubes? KY is nasty stuff!

Just what are these "much higher quality lubes"? Crisco?

I'll pay a bribe to find out.

If police corruption was non existing in Thailand then our fellow forum member would not now be living in the hell of a Thai prison!

[Brad the Impala]

If police corruption was non existing in Thailand then our fellow forum member would not now be living in the hell of a Thai prison!

Double negatives never aid non comprehension.

Double negatives never aid non comprehension.

Kevin Quill was set up, the facts speak for themselves. If a or some police officers had not been bribed then he would never have been arrested in the first place.

[Shuee]

[quote="RawSugar
Why is this so hard for so many to understand?[/quote]


i understand - just pointing out that its a vicious circle TIT!!!!