Sad, outrageous: 1/3 of Thai gay and bi men now HIV+

[Utopia]

The official rate of HIV infection among gays and bisexuals in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Phuket has risen from 28% in 2005 to 30.7% in 2007. That's nearly a third of Thai MSM and an almost doubling of infections since the start of the Moral Order campaign drove condoms from nightclubs and gay saunas.

Where is the outrage?

... the source of these statistics?

[Utopia]

Citation for the 30.7% 2007 figure comes from: Pliplat T, Kladsawas K, van Griensven, Wimonsate W. 2008. Results of the HIV surveillance among men who have sex with men (MSM) in Bangkok, Chiangmai and
Phuket. Proceeding for the Department of Disease Control Annual Conference,
Ministry of Public Health, 11-13 February 2008, Bi-Tech Convention Centre.

A figure of 32% was mentioned by a Thailand MOPH official to a local Thai newspaper in the Fall 2007, but that was before the official report above.

And thai boys still no understand why they have to use condom :banghead: ,
And many westerners still ask for bareback :violent1:

A figure of 32% was mentioned by a Thailand MOPH official to a local Thai newspaper in the Fall 2007, but that was before the official report above.This survey has been quoted before. Whether the methodology used, rigorous though it was, provided a sample that is representative of the entire Thai gay population is open to debate - http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5531a2.htm - the authors themselves recognise the limitations
The findings in this report are subject to at least three limitations. First, the study population consisted of men who were present at venues where MSM, MSW, and TG congregate to socialize and find sex partners or clients. Men who do not attend these venues might have different HIV risk factors and HIV prevalence. Second, men with higher risk for HIV infection might have attended multiple venues and might have enrolled in the study more than once, thereby inflating HIV prevalence estimates. This possibility is unlikely, however, because data-collection periods were brief (approximately 2 weeks), and travel among venues is uncommon in Bangkok. Moreover, MSW and TG typically worked and lived at the venue where they enrolled, making their enrollment at another venue improbable. Finally, men who attend venues frequently might have a higher HIV prevalence and were more likely to be included in the assessment, thereby inflating HIV prevalence estimates. However, no association between venue attendance and HIV prevalence was determined; thus, the data were not weighted for frequency of attendance.That is not to say that the figures are alarming - they are - but to extrapolate to "one in three go-go boys is HIV+" or this thread's headline "one-third of Thai gay men are HIV+" (implication "all") and other notions popular in some quarters is unwarranted

other notions popular in some quarters is unwarranted
OK with you hominterm, but in some cities like Pattaya

to extrapolate to "one in three go-go boys is HIV+" or this thread's headline "one-third of Thai gay men are HIV+"
how many of thai and farang gay no use, no work, no are customers of night venues ?

how many of thai and farang gay no use, no work, no are customers of night venues ?I don't even know where they are :geek:

Yes you can think its funny, 1/3 of the thai boys working in gogo or in sex places or gay fun places are HIV.
Yes you can say where come from this statistics or this statistics are not 100% sure.
Yes you can make so funny answer about that.
I am sure that may help so much in fighting AIDS, and in making thai guy will use condom and farang stop to think its so funny to make barebacking.
Yes you can say, take yourself your own responsability, use condom.
And yes you can think, we no need to speak about that, or we no need to believe the situation is so bad in Thailand now, just have fun, and live day to day.
Many countries in Africa are diying of that, and I think make me happy to know now East Asian is more in danger than Africa.

... the outrage and the hand-wringing, what do you suggest we do that we're not already doing?

... the outrage and the hand-wringing, what do you suggest we do that we're not already doing?

Yes, I'll second that! What should we do that we are not already doing?

Lots of outrage, lots of hand wringing, lots of laws, police actions, education programs, social programs, advertising campaigns, NGOs raking in the money for their own good time, but everything gets worse.

Do you really propose we do more of the same?

And thai boys still no understand why they have to use condom :banghead: ,
And many westerners still ask for bareback :violent1:

The boys understand very well im sure. But Thai nature is to save money and make you happy so its up to the farang to insist.

[allieb]

Regarding farang. They know the risk so the choice is theirs. By bare backing you won't die from ignorance you will die from stupidity and its not if but when.

The Thai boys also know the risks but most just don't give a shit. They live for today's dollar not tomorrows savings

I for one was one of the stupid but lucky ones. Having had unprotected sex with bf for 2 years and then finding out he had been HIV for the whole time. Luckily I didn't get HIV but it brought me to my senses. I will never do it again however much I'm in love or lust.

I think those figures are vastly overstated. I've had over 50 guys tested over the last 12 months or so. Only 1 was positive. But they were Pattaya barboys, perhaps they don't count as gay or bisexual.

BTW, to say that "Thai nature is to save money and make you happy so its up to the farang to insist." as another poster claims, is a silly generalization. Where is this peculiar feature of "Thai nature" documented?

[TrongpaiExpat]

Source: Ministry of Public Health, Thailand

Validity: are you kidding

My favorite directive from that office was that Thai women should not wear bras made anywhere except Thailand because it could harm their breasts.

[Brad the Impala]

I think those figures are vastly overstated. I've had over 50 guys tested over the last 12 months or so. Only 1 was positive. But they were Pattaya barboys, perhaps they don't count as gay or bisexual.



Having 50 guys tested over a year, sounds as if there is an interesting story behind it. Was this for the public good, kindness or some kind of personal insurance? If I may ask.

It sounds to me that barboys were exactly the people who were tested in this survey, which probably skews the figures as they relate to the general population.

The official rate of HIV infection among gays and bisexuals in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Phuket has risen from 28% in 2005 to 30.7% in 2007. That's nearly a third of Thai MSM and an almost doubling of infections since the start of the Moral Order campaign drove condoms from nightclubs and gay saunas.

Where is the outrage?

Douglas, Douglas, Douglas.

This is SGT. The only "outrage" you will find here is if the bars have to close one night for a religious holiday or election.

[Utopia]

The infection rate is actually lower for sex workers than for gay/bi Thai. This is also the case for clients of sex workers. Both receive more education about condom use than does the general gay population here. Government money and research has not been directed at our community. Instead, officials threaten to close gay businesses when condoms are found on the premises.

In 2005, the infection rate for Bangkok male sex workers was 15.4% for venue-based and 22.6% for street-based male sex workers. Both lower than the 28% for gay and bi men at non-commercial venues.

Gay and Bi infection rates are averaged from locations where we socialize and seek sex for fun, not money:
specifically, 1) saunas, 2) bars and dance clubs, 3) parks. The sauna and park rates are actually higher (32%) than at other locales.

Gay and Bi male infection rates in Asia are conservatively predicted to more than double by 2020 (Commission on AIDS in Asia, Mar 2008). Thailand is leading the way.

What to do? Stop being quiet about it. Stop rationalizing why we should not be overly concerned. The plague is already consuming our future. Act up. Start demanding that the government follow the UNAIDS recommendation to fund direct HIV prevention efforts, including condom and lubricant distribution, to our criminally neglected community.

[TrongpaiExpat]

What to do? Stop being quiet about it. Stop rationalizing why we should not be overly concerned. The plague is already consuming our future. Act up. Start demanding that the government follow the UNAIDS recommendation to fund direct HIV prevention efforts, including condom and lubricant distribution, to our criminally neglected community.

Act up! Demand? Just what country do you think your living in? The Thai government just loves descent and demands from Farangs. They already have a tendency to blame all problems on farangs so if you want to act up, go right ahead, good luck and I hope your prepared for the consequences.

Give me liberty or give me death, what no third option?

[Sorry, there is no "Douglas" here at Utopia.]
Wooooooooooo ... have you boys had a tiff? :pain10:



The infection rate is actually lower for sex workers than for gay/bi Thai. This is also the case for clients of sex workers. Both receive more education about condom use than does the general gay population here.
So it makes sense to purchase commercial sex in Thailand? Are you advocating prostitution? Personally, I cannot remember the last time I had it for free and to be frank... it's cheaper and more fun to buy sex off the peg than having some dreary same-old, same-old :puke:"Relationship".

[Utopia]

The Thai government just loves descent and demands from Farangs. They already have a tendency to blame all problems on farangs so if you want to act up, go right ahead, good luck and I hope your prepared for the consequences.

There are Thai GLBT who are not afraid to stand up to wrongful behavior. It just takes a few to make a difference.

The government seems disinterested in the health and welfare of our community. Uninterested, surely?

[Utopia]

Uninterested, surely?

"Disinterested was originally used to mean тАЬnot interested, indifferentтАЭ; uninterested in its earliest use meant тАЬimpartial.тАЭ By various developmental twists, disinterested is now used in both senses...Both senses are well established in all varieties of English, and the sense intended is almost always clear from the context.
" - dictionary.com

Uninterested, surely?"Disinterested was originally used to mean тАЬnot interested, indifferentтАЭ; uninterested in its earliest use meant тАЬimpartial.тАЭ By various developmental twists, disinterested is now used in both senses...Both senses are well established in all varieties of English, and the sense intended is almost always clear from the context.
" - dictionary.comYou may prefer that usage; I don't recognise such an American notion although the OED has an interesting perspective - http://www.oed.com/learning/university/worksheet.html

The official rate of HIV infection among gays and bisexuals in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Phuket has risen from 28% in 2005 to 30.7% in 2007. That's nearly a third of Thai MSM and an almost doubling of infections since the start of the Moral Order campaign drove condoms from nightclubs and gay saunas.

Where is the outrage?

Douglas, Douglas, Douglas.

This is SGT. The only "outrage" you will find here is if the bars have to close one night for a religious holiday or election.

Yet another newbie that already appears to be extremely knowledgeable about this forum and whose style of posting, seems to be very familiar indeed to me. Perhaps Hommie was right to add you to his watch list after all. If you are whom I think you are, perhaps it would be wise for a few others to add you to their watch list as well.


Cheers,



G.

Yet another newbie that already appears to be extremely knowledgeable about this forum and whose style of posting, seems to be very familiar indeed to me. Perhaps Hommie was right to add you to his watch list after all. If you are whom I think you are, perhaps it would be wise for a few others to add you to their watch list as well.


Cheers,



G.

I wasn't aware that ignorance was a prerequisite for new posters here. Though, it appears being ignorant doesn't hurt if you're an old poster...

Yet another newbie that already appears to be extremely knowledgeable about this forum and whose style of posting, seems to be very familiar indeed to me. Perhaps Hommie was right to add you to his watch list after all. If you are whom I think you are, perhaps it would be wise for a few others to add you to their watch list as well.


Cheers,



G.

I wasn't aware that ignorance was a prerequisite for new posters here. Though, it appears being ignorant doesn't hurt if you're an old poster...

Well, what can I say? From your post above, I now have no doubt whatsoever as to whom you are. So, as I wouldn't want you to think that older posters here are totally ignorant, let me say: Welcome back,........................yet again. I wonder how long this new incarnation as Remote Control will last for? I ask this question only because,........... well you know,........... I think it would be fair of me to say, that it wouldn't have to be a terribly long time, to beat your previous best record; don't you think?


Cheers,


G.

I don't know who the heck you think you are (do you own this site, or are you simply the self-appointed welcoming committee?), nor do I know who the heck you think I am. Nor do I care. It seems ever forum has got its aggressive, self-important troll (or two, or three), and I'm happy to have learned at this early point who is who. You are now on ignore.

One poster writes "The government seems disinterested in the health and welfare of our community." What "community" exactly? There is certainly no gay community in Thailand in the Western sense of the word.

Second, why should "the government" be specifically interested in gay people who are positive? Should government not be concerned about all members of society? In addition, I think it is everyone's own responsibility to try not to get HIV or whatever else you can get from sex. I don't need government to tell me what I should do. Nor do I need Samak to provide me with condoms and lube. Such policies belong in Cuba or North Korea perhaps, but not in a capitalist society.

Third, why should we trust government? We have seen their benevolence by banning condoms in saunas. That was a successful private initiative that was stopped by interventionist goverment, as far as I know. Wasn't it that lovely fellow Purachai who did that?

An earlier poster asked why I tested 50 guys? Please check out the link in my signature.

I wasn't aware that ignorance was a prerequisite for new posters here. Though, it appears being ignorant doesn't hurt if you're an old poster...I guess he knows it's only a matter of time before the Mods get him

I wasn't aware that ignorance was a prerequisite for new posters here. Though, it appears being ignorant doesn't hurt if you're an old poster...I guess he knows it's only a matter of time before the Mods get him

Never mind, I'm gone. The friendliness of this board to newcomers is just too overwhelming. Moderator: please delete my account immediately.

Never mind, I'm gone.

I guess we're getting better at driving him off faster these days.

[jinks]

I guess we're getting better at driving him off faster these days.

WE = The sawatdee mafia !

I'll be out of a job if you carry on like this :clown:

[Bob]

Does this mean I have to learn Italian and have a suspicious looking bulge somewhere?



With your moniker - and given the asian proclivity to worship the horizontally challenged - perhaps substitute "auspicious" for "suspicious?"

[zinzone]

The original poster asks the question "where is the outrage"? and I concur with that.

See also:

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/showfea ... 0000000748 (http://www.pattayadailynews.com/showfeature.php?FeatureID=0000000748)

This Thai New Year is meant to be a happy time so I hope everyone will remember to practice safe sex and use condoms always!

[Smiles]

" ... The original poster asks the question "where is the outrage"? and I concur with that ... "
Stopped being outrage when I grew up a few years ago. Best thing I ever did.

Cheers ...

[ikarus]

While numbers given by Utopia are sad, we need to ask ourselves what are the reasons behind this numbers. From my experience there is almost 100 percent awareness among gays in Thailand regarding HIV infection and how it is spread
(of course, this evidence is anecdotal). Still, overwhelmingly they do not use protection. The reference to social order campaign is ridiculuos. While, of course, removal of condoms from saunas did not help, the campaign finished several years ago and after all nobody can prevent having condoms privately.
IMHO, the reason they do not use condoms is that there is medication available to them almost free of charge. I recall I tested one guy in Pattaya couple of years ago. Surely, he turned out to be positive. His reaction was:so what I just need to take a pill. And why Thai government should worry. They do not pay either. If they need more sophisticated HIV drugs,
they just break international patents. We, of course, know that there is no respect of intellectual propery of others in Thailand. Just think of all pirate DVD sold on every corner. Interestingly, I never saw a pirate copy of a single Thai movie.
Not surprisingly. Vendors know if they try to sell pirate copies of local movies their balls will be cut. Pure and simple.
We need to understand that because of attitude of Thais and others mentioned above, we all pay a huge price.
Creation of IV vaccine and finding cure proved to be difficult and costly. Besides, there is no incentive for Pharmas to invest heavily to this task. Cause they know:the day they find a cure or produce vaccine, there will be a huge outcry to distribute it for free to save all these dying people (including promiscuos Thais who do not like to use condoms). It makes much more sense for Pharmas to produce instead new generations of more and more expensive drugs to prolong the life of growing number of HIV patients.
This is the price WE ALL (negative and positive) pay for bullshit promoted by socialists, various kind of activists and, yes, by promiscous Thais..

[Brad the Impala]

We, of course, know that there is no respect of intellectual propery of others in Thailand. Just think of all pirate DVD sold on every corner. Interestingly, I never saw a pirate copy of a single Thai movie.
Not surprisingly. Vendors know if they try to sell pirate copies of local movies their balls will be cut. Pure and simple.
We need to understand that because of attitude of Thais and others mentioned above, we all pay a huge price.


It is not my experience at all that you can't buy pirate copies of Thai Movies. I have found them freely available.

most of the gays guys are HIV positive .. I think the number is more around 60 % from what i hear/see around

[ikarus]

We, of course, know that there is no respect of intellectual propery of others in Thailand. Just think of all pirate DVD sold on every corner. Interestingly, I never saw a pirate copy of a single Thai movie.
Not surprisingly. Vendors know if they try to sell pirate copies of local movies their balls will be cut. Pure and simple.
We need to understand that because of attitude of Thais and others mentioned above, we all pay a huge price.


It is not my experience at all that you can't buy pirate copies of Thai Movies. I have found them freely available.
Well, may be we need to walk one day together along the Patong beach or walking street in Pattaya and you show me exactly where I can get Thai movies... I can give you another example. This December in Tiffany (Pattaya) after taking just second shot with my camera, I was immediately approached ny the employe with the reminder that shots are not permitted...
All cameras are collected before Fantasea show etc. etc. They know how to enforce IP laws. They simply do not bother to do it when it comes to Farangs property..

[Brad the Impala]

We, of course, know that there is no respect of intellectual propery of others in Thailand. Just think of all pirate DVD sold on every corner. Interestingly, I never saw a pirate copy of a single Thai movie.
Not surprisingly. Vendors know if they try to sell pirate copies of local movies their balls will be cut. Pure and simple.
We need to understand that because of attitude of Thais and others mentioned above, we all pay a huge price.


It is not my experience at all that you can't buy pirate copies of Thai Movies. I have found them freely available.
Well, may be we need to walk one day together along the Patong beach or walking street in Pattaya and you show me exactly where I can get Thai movies... I can give you another example. This December in Tiffany (Pattaya) after taking just second shot with my camera, I was immediately approached ny the employe with the reminder that shots are not permitted...
All cameras are collected before Fantasea show etc. etc. They know how to enforce IP laws. They simply do not bother to do it when it comes to Farangs property..

Equally pirated copies CDs/MP3 of Thai bands, are freely available.

I wouldn't be buying my DVDs on the beach in Patong, but in Soi Bangla from vendors set up in shops.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Well, may be we need to walk one day together along the Patong beach or walking street in Pattaya and you show me exactly where I can get Thai movies...

Another example of getting a Pattaya centric view of Thailand. Not many Thais are on walking street as buyers of anything. Go to Huay Khwang night market and would it would be hard to find a movie in English. Thai movies and Chinese dubbed in Thai along with the odd Hollywood action movie dubbed in Thai and all copies.


All cameras are collected before Fantasea show

That might have more to do with performers dangling on a high wire from getting blinded by a flash as well as making it more pleasant for other viewers.

[ikarus]

[quote=ikarus]
We, of course, know that there is no respect of intellectual propery of others in Thailand. Just think of all pirate DVD sold on every corner. Interestingly, I never saw a pirate copy of a single Thai movie.
Not surprisingly. Vendors know if they try to sell pirate copies of local movies their balls will be cut. Pure and simple.
We need to understand that because of attitude of Thais and others mentioned above, we all pay a huge price.


It is not my experience at all that you can't buy pirate copies of Thai Movies. I have found them freely available.
Well, may be we need to walk one day together along the Patong beach or walking street in Pattaya and you show me exactly where I can get Thai movies... I can give you another example. This December in Tiffany (Pattaya) after taking just second shot with my camera, I was immediately approached ny the employe with the reminder that shots are not permitted...
All cameras are collected before Fantasea show etc. etc. They know how to enforce IP laws. They simply do not bother to do it when it comes to Farangs property..

Equally pirated copies CDs/MP3 of Thai bands, are freely available.

I wouldn't be buying my DVDs on the beach in Patong, but in Soi Bangla from vendors set up in shops.[/quote:30e91nfo]
I have never seen a single Thai movie on sale on soi Bangla.

[ikarus]

[quote]Well, may be we need to walk one day together along the Patong beach or walking street in Pattaya and you show me exactly where I can get Thai movies...

Another example of getting a Pattaya centric view of Thailand. Not many Thais are on walking street as buyers of anything. Go to Huay Khwang night market and would it would be hard to find a movie in English. Thai movies and Chinese dubbed in Thai along with the odd Hollywood action movie dubbed in Thai and all copies.


All cameras are collected before Fantasea show

That might have more to do with performers dangling on a high wire from getting blinded by a flash as well as making it more pleasant for other viewers.[/quote:erjnkcic]
Let me add to Pattaya centric experience. Several years ago I tried to get a copy of SurioThai before official release of DVD version. I asked any available vendor in Pattaya and could not get a copy. Farangs movies well before any kind of release were available.
I am not that familiar with BKK venues and I will not argue with you. Though Fantasea situation clearly has everything to do with copy right protection.
You guys, seem to cannot sleep well without finding some kind of inaccuracy in my posts but I hope my point here is quite clear and undisputable.

[Brad the Impala]

[quote=ikarus]
We, of course, know that there is no respect of intellectual propery of others in Thailand. Just think of all pirate DVD sold on every corner. Interestingly, I never saw a pirate copy of a single Thai movie.
Not surprisingly. Vendors know if they try to sell pirate copies of local movies their balls will be cut. Pure and simple.
We need to understand that because of attitude of Thais and others mentioned above, we all pay a huge price.


It is not my experience at all that you can't buy pirate copies of Thai Movies. I have found them freely available.
Well, may be we need to walk one day together along the Patong beach or walking street in Pattaya and you show me exactly where I can get Thai movies... I can give you another example. This December in Tiffany (Pattaya) after taking just second shot with my camera, I was immediately approached ny the employe with the reminder that shots are not permitted...
All cameras are collected before Fantasea show etc. etc. They know how to enforce IP laws. They simply do not bother to do it when it comes to Farangs property..

Equally pirated copies CDs/MP3 of Thai bands, are freely available.

I wouldn't be buying my DVDs on the beach in Patong, but in Soi Bangla from vendors set up in shops.
I have never seen a single Thai movie on sale on soi Bangla.[/quote:12bzask9]

I can only give you my own experience, which is that I have bought them there, however I did ask for them, as most of the customers(Thai and Farang) are looking for Western movies, those are the ones on prominent display.

[ikarus]

I can only give you my own experience, which is that I have bought them there, however I did ask for them, as most of the customers(Thai and Farang) are looking for Western movies, those are the ones on prominent display.[/quote]
You do not remember by chance exactly where on Soi Bangla? I will be there in a couple of weeks and could check it out...

Just check out any branch of Mang Pong or any other video store outlet. They will have aisles and aisles full of Thai VCD's and DVD's -- genuine ones, not street knock-offs -- for very cheap prices (often under 100 baht). And you will at least be guaranteed they will be of good quality.

[cottmann]

..... And why Thai government should worry. They do not pay either. If they need more sophisticated HIV drugs, they just break international patents. ..

There are no "international patents," as most countries have their own patent laws. A person or company wanting a patent in a particular country must make an application for patent in that country, in accordance with that country's requirements. There are several international treaties that help individuals and/or firms in applying for international patent protection (such as the Paris Convention Treaty and the Patent Cooperation Treaty - the PCT).

If Thailand decides itself to produce a particular drug after having granted a pharmaceutical company a Thai patent, then it is within its legal rights to do so, under the 'health emergency' clause of the Doha Declaration amendment to the Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS) Treaty - in 2003 the World Trade Organization allowed governments to override patents during national health crises,

[Brad the Impala]

I can only give you my own experience, which is that I have bought them there, however I did ask for them, as most of the customers(Thai and Farang) are looking for Western movies, those are the ones on prominent display.
You do not remember by chance exactly where on Soi Bangla? I will be there in a couple of weeks and could check it out...[/quote]

Facing the sea, fifty yards after the Shopping Centre, Ocean Plaza I think, on the opposite side of the road. But there is NO reason to believe that they are the only suppliers of Thai Movies!

Do you really still believe that the copyright of Thai Films on DVD and Thai Musicians on CDs and MP3s are protected in Thailand?

Ikarus, if you think that Pattaya is in Thailand it's time to wake up. Pattaya is another country, in another time zone even.

[ikarus]

I can only give you my own experience, which is that I have bought them there, however I did ask for them, as most of the customers(Thai and Farang) are looking for Western movies, those are the ones on prominent display.
You do not remember by chance exactly where on Soi Bangla? I will be there in a couple of weeks and could check it out...

Facing the sea, fifty yards after the Shopping Centre, Ocean Plaza I think, on the opposite side of the road. But there is NO reason to believe that they are the only suppliers of Thai Movies!

Do you really still believe that the copyright of Thai Films on DVD and Thai Musicians on CDs and MP3s are protected in Thailand?[/quote]
Thanks. Of course, I do based on my experience. Nothing presented here changed my mind. By the way, I never talked about CDs and MP3.
Many comments over here are completely idiotic (like ones of Cottmans) but this things have been discussed many times and I am not going to waste my time again.