What is the poverty line for gay farang living in Pattaya

[lonelywombat]

The brother of an expat gay living in Pattaya, came to me to ask how a person could survive in Thailand

on an Australian old age pension, without medical insurance. His pension is 35,000 baht pm He rents a room

The brother is a joint signature on two bank accounts. One his 800,000baht and the other a fund to fly him home

if things get too bad. In just over 4 years his savings have dropped from over 6 million baht to just over one.

Recently there was a thread about a room for 3000bpm. I accept you eat for very little at street stalls.

He looks for bar boys who have not been offed, on their way home He claims he can tell which ones look hungry

and will do it for 100 baht If he goes to Sunee he does not buy anything. Is that living


An expat with a condo same floor as mine is slightly better off, his private pension is 62,000bpm

He lives off mainly fruit and 4 times a week goes to White Knight or similar, he budgets 1000 for his visits and pigs out

on everything in sight . He also does not off from bars but waits for the boys going home. As fruit is fairly cheap

and he has a lot of it, the boys seem to accept the low tip plus a bellyfull of fruit


I have read of expats staying with their BF in a 5000bpm B&B, who go to places like Mata Hari and Manhattan

and pay 3000baht for a meal.

I have met people on the beach who complain of the prices for drinks in Boyztown who brag about dining at Brunos.

Same people bitch about tourists spoiling it for locals by tipping boys too much, or overpaying the massage boys


An army friend of mine retiring this year with a pension just under 200,000bpm and owning a condo in VT, is worried he

might not have enough.

Most certainly he will not be on the poverty line, but I wonder how many gay farang are trying to survive on between

35,000 and 50,000bpm and live in rented very small rooms


The thread on the gayest restaurant in Pattaya prompted the thought how many gay expats eat there regularly.

How many gay farang expats are there in Pattaya? 1000 maybe 2000 possibly 3000???

What percentage are comfortably over the poverty line? Would it be as high as half?


_________________
Wombat : an Australian marsupial that eats,roots and leaves

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

and you answered it yourself.."is that living ?"

personally I would go batty eating at Mati Hari or similar every night-there are half a dozen small and extremely cheap Thai restaurants I prefer ( so cheap it's not funny) that hardly make a dent in the budget. (The ones I don't like are the ones that cater to farangs.)

If he can afford visits home then-yes..it is living..what's the alternative ?( if he's an Aussie ) .that dreadful Oxford St or the equivelent in Melbourne and all those buffed queens with attitude, empty heads and old faces who turn out to be only 22 or such ?

I have a retired friend living in Pattaya and he showed me his budget not so long ago. Here it is. The figures in bold are his monthly totals.

Room plus utilities, ADSL, UBC тАУ B20,000.
Food тАУ average 300 baht per day, round up to B10,000 тАУ he eats healthily but isnтАЩt intentionally eating cheaply; heтАЩd have the same at тАЬhomeтАЭ. (Breakfast: yoghurt plus fruit around B20; Lunch: fruit, toast, scrambled eggs; Dinner: something with salad or steamed vegetables if eating in (relatively inexpensive), eats out maybe 3 times a week (relatively expensive); occasional coffee or drinks).
Well-being: has a Thai massage two or three times a week тАУ B6,000.

ThereтАЩs your friendтАЩs 36,000 baht a month, so you have to wonder why he isnтАЩt surviving. The Thai massage is interchangible (or fungible as we economists say) with at least some sex.

But assuming no sex there -
Entertainment: dinner out 3 times a week (already mentioned); sex up to 4 times a week, claims he can get boys for between B1,000 and B1,500, has some regulars but no boyfriend тАУ B16,000 to B24,000.
ThereтАЩs the other guyтАЩs 62,000 baht a month.

I'd say you need around 65,000 baht a month to survive comfortably but not luxuriously which is, not coincidentally, what the Thai government says you need - 800,000 baht per year or 65,000 baht per month for a retirement visa.

.....ThereтАЩs your friendтАЩs 36,000 baht a month, so you have to wonder why he isnтАЩt surviving. ... .

Because living is more than just rent, food and sex.

Transportation, medical expenses, clothes, haircuts, toiletries, sitting at the beach having a chat and a few beers, going to/renting movies, internet access, mobile phone, books/magazines, laundry, etc etc.
Lots of little things to add up.

65,000 sounds much more reasonable.

(EDIT: oops, just noticed Curious you already added cable and DSL in your budget. Still, lots of things missing that could easily run the tab way over 35k)

Using 31 baht/$ rate

... His pension is 35,000 baht pm He rents a room.... In just over 4 years his savings have dropped from over 6 million baht to just over one....

That puts his actual expenses up around 140,000 baht a month, assuming there was no big expenditure along the way. That's around $4,500 a month! Something's not right.


... An expat with a condo same floor as mine is slightly better off, his private pension is 62,000bpm
... 4 times a week goes to White Knight or similar, he budgets 1000 for his visits and pigs out on everything in sight

4X per week at 1000 per visit is around 16000B a month - about $520 us. About 25% more than I spend here in the US. Maybe he ought to buy more than fruit for home and skip a couple of buffets? Might depend on how much he normally eats though.


... An army friend of mine retiring this year with a pension just under 200,000bpm and owning a condo in VT, is worried he might not have enough....

Jeez, thats over $6000us a month! And he's worried? Just what kind of lifestyle is he leading?

My 2 cents: I would say 40,000 is "poverty level" but I wouldn't even try it for less than 100,000 AND some kind of medical insurance.

basically, as Ive said many times, its no cheaper living in Pattaya than living in the UK or the States, its just about juggling the figures around.

For example, someone who is retired in the UK, would generally either live in a council house, or their mortgaged property would be fully paid for. Generally, someone who is retired would not go out and eat every night, a lot of retired just get their food from the supermarket and cook at home, with maybe 1 meal a week eating out, some go out 3 or 4 times a week, but generally not. And this day and age a lot of retirees get that 1 meal for a reasonable price, a good carvery in some of the Toby or Harvester places can be anything from as little as ┬г3.50 to ┬г11, now ┬г3.50 is cheap. Transport and medical facilities are free. So all you need now is money for clothes, and going out. However, no sex!!! Oh dear, forget all the above crap, lets go the Pattaya.

Mind you there is no need to feel despondent if one wants to live in Thailand. What they should do if they are retired is spend 3 months in Thailand and then 3 months in the UK. That way they could replenish their funds.

Similarly, another way of saving money would be to not live in such a place like Pattaya where you need so much money to enjoy everything that is going on around you. A retiree could quite easily move to somewhere less congested, i.e. smaller town, like Rayong or somewhere like that, or even Chiang Mai. One could rent a place I bet for less than 10,000 bht a month, I bet in Chiang Mai you could get a nice room for 6000 bht plus utility bills obviously. Use the baht buses (if they have them), eat "at home" and "restaurants". Few beers in the bars that probably wouldn't cost more than 80 bht a beer. The locals in these type of places are less demanding and you would meet people there if you stayed long enough. If one eats local food then it would be reasonably priced way of living. If one has retired, they could take a course in TEFL and get a part-time job teaching.

There's my blog on it!!

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

the person involved in this exercise owns a property in their homeland.

That would make all the difference obviously if they can let it out.

Personally I think the best arrangement for an older farang is to arrange life so they live 6 months in their homeland and 6 months in paradise..or even 8 months at home and 4 in Pattyaya..after all there is only so much sex you can have before it becomes mundane..only so many times you listen to Homintern's tales of his part in the Coup etc.

Familiarity breeds contempt and after a while you start to see the same people over and over and believe me..they all find me utterly contemptible.

One suggestion that was made is to live in a smaller city than Pattaya in Thailand where things are not as expensive. This may be a good option for some. However, I had a friend that had a boyfriend and they decided to live in Chang Mai becasue his boy friend (Thai) got a job teaching at a Thai University. This lasted about 9 months. The farang became so bored. He felt there were not enough farangs to make friends with. One of the advantages to Pattaya is that it has a great farang community.

Money vs quality of life is usually an issue. Most work it out though.

A good starting point for anyone thinking about retiring to Thailand is to spend 495 baht and buy Retiring in Thailand: live in paradise for pennies on the dollar by Terlecky & Bryce. They give an indicative range of 60 - 80 thousand baht a month (and do discuss the implications of the cost of a good time as we (almost) know and love it - they're breeders)

[lonelywombat]

I rang my friend to get more info and it was not good

His brother lives in a room with no kitchen. Just 4m x 4m plus a shower/ toilet

There are no chairs . no table . He lives on his bed. No cable TV

I asked about a refrigerator or cooking appliances

He has neither. no way to keep drinks cold and no fan let alone AC

basically, as Ive said many times, its no cheaper living in Pattaya than living in the UK or the States, its just about juggling the figures around.

Mind you there is no need to feel despondent if one wants to live in Thailand. What they should do if they are retired is spend 3 months in Thailand and then 3 months in the UK. That way they could replenish their funds.
!!

Your figures do not stack up.

If someone is to return to the UK twice a year that is another ┬г1200 (average) for those two flights, plus when back in the UK there is the cost of accomodation to find which is far more expensive than in Thailand. If they are retired they will not have work in the UK so how is this replenishment of funds going to come about?

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"His brother lives in a room with no kitchen. Just 4m x 4m plus a shower/ toilet

There are no chairs . no table . He lives on his bed. No cable TV

I asked about a refrigerator or cooking appliances

He has neither. no way to keep drinks cold and no fan let alone AC"

not even a balcony to fling oneself of.. how much does he pay for this luxurious accomodation ?

I rang my friend to get more info and it was not good

His brother lives in a room with no kitchen. Just 4m x 4m plus a shower/ toilet

There are no chairs . no table . He lives on his bed. No cable TV

I asked about a refrigerator or cooking appliances

He has neither. no way to keep drinks cold and no fan let alone AC

If he gets 35K baht a month - he should be able to spend 8K to 10K a month on a decent room that has a TV and Small Fridge and basic chairs and table (maybe no kitchen). I know of two storey townhouses in a Thai community on the other side of Sukhumvit for only about 5K baht a month. I also know an inexpensive apartment complex behind the Hanuman Statue in Jomtien - for 3700 baht/month you get a small room with a balcony and bathroom, small TV and Fridge. So I'm NOT sure what your friend's brother is doing with (already) small monthly income, but apparently his living environment is NOT a large priority. Maybe he should cut out a couple of massages or a couple of boys each month and get himself a better place to live.

[thaiworthy-old]

basically, as Ive said many times, its no cheaper living in Pattaya than living in the UK or the States, its just about juggling the figures around.

Mind you there is no need to feel despondent if one wants to live in Thailand. What they should do if they are retired is spend 3 months in Thailand and then 3 months in the UK. That way they could replenish their funds.
!!

Your figures do not stack up.

If someone is to return to the UK twice a year that is another ┬г1200 (average) for those two flights, plus when back in the UK there is the cost of accomodation to find which is far more expensive than in Thailand. If they are retired they will not have work in the UK so how is this replenishment of funds going to come about?

The twice yearly visits is a good idea. I am also not sure how the "replenishment" will come about either, but there is a savings if you maintain a residence (you own your house) in your home country. You have fixed expenses that must be paid each month, all year for this house. Visiting Thailand for half that time, means you are saving (say 65,000 baht?) when you are not in Thailand. This is what I plan to do. Personally it would depend on how one's health is after age 65; in my instance I would have to return at least this often for health care purposes. You lucky guys with no pre-existing conditions and a low-cost Thai health insurance plan have the whole thing beat.

Anything less than 300,000 Baht a month is just frightning.........Yes that is three hundred thousand :cheers:

[thaiworthy-old]

Anything less than 300,000 Baht a month is just frightning.........Yes that is three hundred thousand :cheers:

What do you do in Thailand that costs 300K a mo? Does it have anything to do with Thai boys?

Like others, I just cannot follow some of these figures.

As Kenc rightly points out, given the original subject's circumstances he has apparently been spending as if there is no tomorrow. Even allowing for minimal interest, for the last 4 years his expenditure has averaged 150,000 baht per month - yet he lives in a 4m x 4m room with no fan, no fridge, no cooking facilities, no furniture except a bed, and tips boys 100 baht a time!! What exactly has he been spending his money on? (A serious, not a rhetorical question). The only people I know of who may be in this position are serious drug users - if so he will probably soon find that cheaper, and even more spartan, living conditions will be found for him.

And the fruit eater, who spends 16,000 baht a month on 16 meals and tips the boys with "a bellyful of fruit"? Why? My partner controls the food account, whether it is shopping in the local markets, the supermarkets or reasonable Thai restaurants; we eat well, mainly Thai food admittedly and he is a good cook, but even with the best rice and fresh fish / squid / prawns / chicken / ribs plus "farang" veg (mushrooms, cauliflower, corn, tomatoes, etc,) plus a lot of "farang" fruit (and while pineapple and cantaloupe are comparatively cheap, strawberries and grapes are not), plus my two large glasses of fresh orange juice a day, plus flowers, etc for Buddha, garlands for my parents' pictures and red roses for me every Buddha day, plus bones and fried chicken for the dogs (but not the regular dog food!) he still spends less than 12,000 baht on this a month for both of us - not because he has to, but because that is how much he needs.

Naughty but Nice, like you I just cannot see how returning "home" (UK, US, wherever) regularly can possibly be a money-saver, let alone a money-maker. Apart from the cost of flights, if you own property in both countries you have the cost of maintaining two houses/apartments - double the cost of one, even assuming the costs are the same in both countries. If you are renting you will not be in a position to get the economy of a long term contract and if you own property and rent out then similarly you will only be able to get short term rentals - hardly good economic sense unless you can afford not to be worried about the costs. Thaiworthy, I sympathise about your problems over medical cover for your diabetes, particularly if you have no option but to divide your time and your pension, but I think you are trying to find something positive in your predicament. There are no "savings if you maintain a residence (you own your house) in your home country" unless you are forced to, as you are, and even then they are questionable; selling / renting the house would obviously release funds which would be available to someone retiring full-time to another country which would not be available to you.

My expenditure and my income is my own business, suffice to say that it is "sufficient" (as RR used to say). Unless I were to give a full breakdown it would also be meaningless - what I spend maintaining our house and gardens others may spend on beer and cigarettes; the costs of insuring our cars and motorbikes alone would more than cover a year's fuel, running and rental costs for a couple of small motorbikes; my UBC bill would, apparently, pay for a furnished room within walking distance of Dongtan beach, and my dogs' food and vet's bills alone would cover both the room and the motorbike rental; on the other hand what some people apparently are only too happy to spend on one good night out including Manhattan / Mata Hari, etc, is more than we would spend on "evening entertainment" in a year. We are all, thank God, different - some very different!!

How much do you need a month to be comfortable? 40,000 - c'est pas vivre, c'est survivre. 200,000 with your own condo - most would be comfortable on that, but not all.

I would sincerely hope someone retired there could live & have regular sex for 60,000 baht a month with some care.

However, how much do retired people pay for good health cover in Thailand?

A wonderful topic.

There is additional information to be gleaned from the Resouce Forum.


How much did it all cost?
Happily, the total cost of expenses (accommodation, food, entertainment, drinks, miscellaneous, e.g.: mobile phone, books, transport, etc.) in Thailand was just ┬г1,600 (120,000Bt) and well within my budget for the 8 weeks stay. It included expenses for entertaining Thai guys a couple of times each week (тАЬin my loomтАЭ), together with tips for enjoying myself in the тАШextreme cityтАЩ at certain bars! Accommodation expenses included in the above totaled about ┬г530 (40,000Bt).


I always like to think IтАЩm not gong to exceed ┬г1,000 (70,000Bt) per month spending when in Thailand and happily, without trying to be economical, or sacrificing anything

ChrisUK's story is a good read. Make sure you read all three threads.

www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/about-living-in-thailand-part-1-my-two-month-experiment-t6755.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/about-living-in-thailand-part-1-my-two-month-experiment-t6755.html)

I do remember reading a great post in the past, either on GP's or GB's board, that did a nice job of breaking down a monthly budget. I have a copy. I will clean it up and post it shortly.

First, my apologies to whoever originally posted this information. My copy did not list an author and it is bothersome not to be able to acknowledge the author or the original forum.

Some of the information is a little dated and may need adjustment relative to the inflation rate in Thailand and today's exchange rates. However, I think the detail of expenses does a nice job of giving one an outline for a retiree's budget.


FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS; LIVING IN THAILAND ON A LIMITED
INCOME; VISITING THAILAND: ORDINARY CAUTIONS AND WARNINGS

The following if from an e-mail message sent by a good friend who has
carefully looked into every aspect of living in Thailand on a pension,
whether it be disability or retirement pension, which offers only a fixed,
limited income:

I will be honest with you, living on $1000 U.S. a month will not leave you
much money to go bar hopping, but it should be enough to get by. You will
have to depend more on the young men coming to your room rather than your
going out to the bars and offing them. Maybe you will find a good one who
needs a place to stay.

Keep an eye on the value baht relative to your home country currency. It
is right around 37 baht to the U.S. Dollar now. If the number of baht to
the dollar goes up, it will make life here easier and more fun for you.
But, if it goes down, it will make it more difficult. If it ever goes back
to 25 baht to the U.S. Dollar (as it was in 1997), both of us will be
watching allot of TV!!!!

During the last several years I spent many weeks looking into living in
condos here in Pattaya, and hour after hour putting together information
which may or may not be of interest to you and help you in your preparatory
stages of coming to Thailand. However, you keep delaying on making a decision.
It appears that you ask the same people over and over again the same questions.

I hope that you do not take the intent of my message wrong, but I feel
that either you do not believe the information I send you, or that you are
expecting someone to tell you anything you want to hear and lead you to
believe that you can come to Thailand with or without anything, and you
can have everything you want and live happily ever after on $1000 U.S. per
month. Unfortunately, (at least in my case) this is not the case.
If anyone has additional information and / or corrections to give to the
readers about my message, feel free to say so. This is only based on my
information and feelings which may, or may not be correct!

Attached is some basic information I sent to a railroad friend of mine a
few months ago. He is planning on moving here in a couple of years. Here
are some basic rates available at the Center Condo (one of the main
condominiums in Pattaya, and probably the one nearest to the "heart" of
the scene in Pattaya) and some other information which might be a
guide line...

Rent: 5,500 to 30,000 per month. Usually 2 months security deposit.
Laundry Service: 500 baht per month for basic service.
Sophon Cable TV: 200 baht per month. (Most people are happy with Sophon
alone, it gives many channels, including many foreign language programs,
but does not have most NFL Football or NBA basketball games) Note: Sophon
Cable costs 350 baht per month to the general public living in houses or
apartments.
UBC SATELLITE: 1000+ per month + hookup fee (unit must have balcony facing
southward since it relies on direct satellite to home television signal
transmissions)
Maid Cleaning: 150 baht (if you request the service)
Water: 45 baht on up per month.
Electricity: 350 baht on up per month (probably @ 1200 baht with
air-conditioning)
Internet: 350 baht on up per month. (Internet cafes are much cheaper)
(Several Internet Service Providers now provide service on a prepaid usage
card for a minimum of 20 hours on up, but no monthly minimum.)
Phone: 5 baht per local call. International Long Distance very expensive.
(This is Center Condo's charge; the Telephone Organization of Thailand
charge for local calls with local service at a rate of 3 baht per call,
plus Baht 100 monthly service charge and 7% VAT and a required deposit,
plus written approval of house or apartment owners)
Visa Runs: 3,000 to 16,000+ baht per trip (three or four per year for most
people not here on annual retirement visa or with work permit entitling
him to annual visa without having to leave Thailand)
Health/Accident Ins: 15,000 baht per year.
Theft Insurance: 1,000 to 5,000+ baht per year.
Bar hopping: 300 baht on up .
Bar Short timers: 300 to 800 per visit. (Most expect @ 700 baht) I pay
500+.
Freelance Short timers:300 to 800 per visit. (Most happy with 500 baht) I
pay 300 to 500+.
Bar "Sleepers": 300 to 1200 per day (Most expect 1000+ baht) I pay 500+
misc.
Freelance "Sleepers": 300 to 1000 per day (Most happy with 500 baht) I pay
300 to 500+.
Food: 20 to 120 baht per meal, (on up for farang food at restaurants.)
Baht bus: 5 to 40 baht per ride. (Most often 5 baht)

One thing you need to do and you can do right now while still in America
(or any other country), is try to get a 1 year multiple entry retirement
visa. I don't know if you can qualify for one on $1000 a month, but look
into it, and try to figure out a way to do it. Believe me, if you can get
one, it will be well worth the effort, and it will pay for itself many
times over once you are here in Thailand. (Note from XXX Pattayan: The Los
Angeles consulate, in the past, at least, gave no problem on mulitiple
entry visas, type 0, for retired people over age 55.) All you need is
proof of age and retirement.

And don't forget that you will need some "start up" money for when you
come. You will need it for your "short time" hotel stay, rental deposits,
opening new bank / ATM accounts, health / accident insurance, internet
startup, etc... At one time you said you could come over with around
$12000. If that is still the case, you are in great shape!! If not, you
need to put together as much money as you can!

My advice is to sell your computer and get one here. Too big and expensive
to ship, and you may have to pay import tax / duties on it. And it might
make the trip safely, and it might get destroyed in transit. The price of
computers here is about the same as the USA, but (because it is pirated),
most software is almost free. (Note: One friend brought his computer box
in a suitcase, which worked just fine, and bought a monitor over here.
Even as baggage, however, this might be subject to harm from being shaken
and jarred, etc. The duty on computers reportedly has been scrapped by the
Thai government, as of January, 2000).

This is the note sent to another friend earlier:
I know of several people who live here on $700 to $1100 U.S. per month,
and they get along all right, but do not go out bar-hopping. The $1200 to
$2000 U.S. range you talked about is where I am at, and I have no
problems. I don't go out every day, but have no desire to do so, so it is
no problem for me. Those friends I have who make $2100 to $3000+ a month
live about the same as we do, but they have the money to take long visa
runs (miniature vacations) when they want to, and they can go bar hopping
and eat out as often as they want. It would be nice to be able to travel a
lot, but (at least so far), I really don't have the desire to do so. Maybe
some day I will, but right now I am very comfortable and content staying
where I am at. You know me! I always was a "loner", and I need my own
space and quiet time. I cannot function without it.

The 3 expensive activities you will find here that you can almost totally
control are bar hopping / offing, visa runs and eating farang food.
Everything else is very reasonable and often very cheap. When you find a
special friend, he/she can be very reasonable in his/her demands, or very
unreasonable. Each one is different. Some are very happy living a quiet
"home life" and some expect the "good life". Many (if not MOST) also
expect you to help take care of their families' needs. Here is where you
can run into problems, so be very careful!!

Renting a 2 bedroom house (or bungalow as they are called here), is very
cheap. You can find one in the 6000 to 8000 baht range with no problem.
The problem with a bungalow is security. Every person I know of who has
rented a bungalow has had trouble with theft. Some times small, and
sometimes after returning from a visa run, they have found their entire
house has been burglarized. If security is a high priority to you, we
highly recommend finding a high occupancy, good condo with 24 hour
security to rent. You will pay more, and won't have the privacy of a
house, but you will be much more secure. Something to think about
anyway!!! Also, (in case you did not know), Thai law does not allow a
foreigner to own land, so you cannot own a house in Thailand. There are
ways around this law but none that I recommend. Because a Condo does not
have land with it, you can own a Condo though.
Here is an internet site which might be of interest. I have no idea if
they are a good outfit or not, but might have some information on visas
which would be of interest to you. It is: www.thaivisa.com (http://www.thaivisa.com)

[lonelywombat]

The brother of an expat gay living in Pattaya, came to me to ask how a person could survive in Thailand

on an Australian old age pension, without medical insurance. His pension is 35,000 baht pm He rents a room

The brother is a joint signature on two bank accounts. One his 800,000baht and the other a fund to fly him home

if things get too bad. In just over 4 years his savings have dropped from over 6 million baht to just over one.

Recently there was a thread about a room for 3000bpm. I accept you eat for very little at street stalls.

He looks for bar boys who have not been offed, on their way home He claims he can tell which ones look hungry

and will do it for 100 baht If he goes to Sunee he does not buy anything. Is that living



Some more about this guy from his brother.

He was retrenched just before his 60th birthday. After paying off a small mortgage with 8 months severence pay in his

pocket he came to LOS on holiday In off season he was able to stay at half rates at Royal Cliff and Phuket Merlin.

His brother said he would budget for 5000 baht per night but often spent more. Nothing wrong with that most visitors

spend up to that some more, if they are here for 14 days or so After living like a monk for most of his life his sexual

appetite took over and he wanted sex 3,4 5 times a day He decided to move to LOS permanent and arranged for his

apartment to be sold

He was now worth 6 million baht with no job and no roof over his head. In less than 2 years half of that had gone.

Then he got sick. He moved out of his sea view condo and over two years downsized 4 times to his present room,

which has no cooking facilities, no aircon, no where to sit except the bed and no TV.

Sex for him is the only reason living He has been offered an air ticket and to live with his brother, but rejects it.

I dont understand it but it does help me understand some of the people I see in Sunee and the beach

[thaiworthy-old]

This is a very sad story. How could it have come to all this? Was there no foresight in mind at all? Didn't he ever hear the classic story of the grasshopper and the ant? This Aesop fable was even made into a cartoon I had watched as a child. I don't want to take a scolding tone, because there have to be more details than just what we know already. We live our whole lives preparing for something. And as we get older the preparation for "something" gets more and more obvious. Every pain in the arm now and then, lines on the face that weren't there before-- are all reminders to prepare.

The brother is in a tight spot. I don't know what I would do. But I do know what's going to happen if something doesn't happen to help his brother. He will be another Pattaya statistic among those who jump from tall balconies. I hate to say that. It sounds so cruel. But we need to think about the reality of the situation.

Sex is not the only thing to live for. Unless he can be convinced of that absolutely, then there is little hope.

I do know what I'd do-- I'd probably try persistently to convince him to leave. What else can you do?

Joe M,
I thank you for that insight, it has taken you a long time to write that, and l for 1 have taken some info from it!

Cheers

Whatever you do in Pattaya, how much money you have or make; if you aren't a kind of cold hearted cheap b*st*rd......you'll end up under the poverty line before you know it.

As soon as close 'friends' start talking about: my papa (pointing in your direction) and that you have a "very jai dee", than it will cost you!!

If you're able to keep your brains in place and if you're willing to accept that you're a "kee niow", than you might survive and then you really don't need a THB 65,000!

[bing]

That was a neat posting. I really am old guy but no plans to retire. I often wonder how much it would cost to just stay in Pattaya for the long haul. I do my 2 plus weeks in Thailand most every year, and I really don't like to count the cost till I have made it safely back home. I know the exchange rate has dipped low, but I plan to spend a bit more next trip. I hear about renting a condo if one is planning on staying for a longer period of time, but I do tend to be a bit messy and stack stuff on chairs at home. Then one day it bothers me and I spend half an hour cleaning up all the mess. I am basically clean and never leave a dirty dish in the sink. If I eat at 5:00 p.m. the kitchen is spic and span by 5:30. So I am a bit conflicted about staying in a condo. Would hate to be messy and gross out a Thai friend.
Ah, I have no idea what I'm chatting about.. Must be the heineken talking.. he he Again, did enjoy the detailed account of expenses.

[francois]

That was a neat posting. I hear about renting a condo if one is planning on staying for a longer period of time, but I do tend to be a bit messy and stack stuff on chairs at home. Then one day it bothers me and I spend half an hour cleaning up all the mess. I am basically clean and never leave a dirty dish in the sink. If I eat at 5:00 p.m. the kitchen is spic and span by 5:30. So I am a bit conflicted about staying in a condo. Would hate to be messy and gross out a Thai friend.
..

Joe M; I recommend you rent a condo if you are spending a month in Thailand. My experience is that the condo is far superior to a hotel, unless you are at a pricey hotel with all the amenities.

Francois

Would hate to be messy and gross out a Thai friend.That's what servants are for!

[andrewcraig]

That was a neat posting. I really am old guy but no plans to retire. I often wonder how much it would cost to just stay in Pattaya for the long haul. I do my 2 plus weeks in Thailand most every year, and I really don't like to count the cost till I have made it safely back home. I know the exchange rate has dipped low, but I plan to spend a bit more next trip. I hear about renting a condo if one is planning on staying for a longer period of time, but I do tend to be a bit messy and stack stuff on chairs at home. Then one day it bothers me and I spend half an hour cleaning up all the mess. I am basically clean and never leave a dirty dish in the sink. If I eat at 5:00 p.m. the kitchen is spic and span by 5:30. So I am a bit conflicted about staying in a condo. Would hate to be messy and gross out a Thai friend.
Ah, I have no idea what I'm chatting about.. Must be the heineken talking.. he he Again, did enjoy the detailed account of expenses.

When I stay now I rent a condo and get a cleaning lady in twice a week. If you are wondering what it would be like in a condo ,rent one next trip as an experiment. Most people staying long term feel the money is wasted on hotels, and the saving on having breakfast in your room and cooking now and again plus the extra space, well worth while.
It is also a chance to move out of the Boyztown/Sunee area by considering Chateau Dale, View Talay or there are many others in Jomtien.
make this next trip an experiment. I am sure you will be pleased you did. And ask questions here

[lonelywombat]

T

An expat with a condo same floor as mine is slightly better off, his private pension is 62,000bpm

He lives off mainly fruit and 4 times a week goes to White Knight or similar, he budgets 1000 for his visits and pigs out

on everything in sight . He also does not off from bars but waits for the boys going home. As fruit is fairly cheap

and he has a lot of it, the boys seem to accept the low tip plus a bellyfull of fruit

Just received an email from the guy above who asked was it him I was referring to. If so a few minor corrections

He budgets 1000 baht per week for his visits to White Knight He does live mainly on fruit, takes home thai food from street stalls and has a toaster in his room. Not much else. He said he would not survive if it was not for the buffet every second night.

However his main complaint is his 62000bpm pension is now below 45000bpm and he has had to look at everything he spends. Unhappily the next thing to go might be his health insurance. Cigarettes was the first to go, then visits to boy bars.
He says he now nurses one drink for most of the night in a small Sunee bar,which I doubt. He still has his boys but does not off from the bars

He claims he is better off than an expat friend who is on a pension that is not indexed

He finished his email saying at least I own my condo and it is a long way off the ground

I am not worried about the financially side but a lot of Pattaya seems so like the old men in the park opposite my home, they have nothing left in life, no challenges,no interests,nothing to look forward to except a lonely bed.And flinging themselves off the balcony?

I found this thread interesting, but wonder why retired expats cannot live for less than 65,000 per month.

I am in my 40's and know MANY farangs working here in Bangkok earning much less and they are living quite comfortably, including travels, entertainment, etc. I have been here for 6 years already.

Granted, medical costs usually do not play a major factor.

[paulg]

I found this thread interesting, but wonder why retired expats cannot live for less than 65,000 per month.

I am in my 40's and know MANY farangs working here in Bangkok earning much less and they are living quite comfortably, including travels, entertainment, etc. I have been here for 6 years already.

Granted, medical costs usually do not play a major factor.

I have several friends teaching english in Bangkok for many years ,they worked long days usually 7-9AM and then again 6-9PM and all day saturday and sunday. They were getting 200 baht an hour and averaged about 35000b per month. They survived living in rooms 12 foot x 9 foot with a bathroom the size of a telephone box. They ate only at the street stalls, drank Thai beer and later on mainly Thai whisky, never offed a boy from the bars but did well away from the Silom area in swimming pools and on the net .Now they have their own clients during the day, their income has doubled and they have almost dropped the hated weekend work . They can afford an occasional weekend in Pattaya to lounge around on the beach and drink in Sunee, but not to fly home for a visit. Medical insurance is a big part of their budget.

Maybe it is expats who cannot live on less than 65000 in Pattaya where every boy expects to be paid for his favours.
If you own your own condo no matter how small, then you are in a better situation from those who have to rent.

If you own your own condo no matter how small, then you are in a better situation from those who have to rent.Really? My impression is that if you own your own condo the maintenance costs and levies alone are 5000+ a month for the smallest size that you can buy, whereas you can (still) get rooms for that sort of money (as you say, away from the Silom area). As well, you're forgoing the interest you could be earning on the money you've spent on your condo

[lonelywombat]

If you own your own condo no matter how small, then you are in a better situation from those who have to rent.Really? My impression is that if you own your own condo the maintenance costs and levies alone are 5000+ a month for the smallest size that you can buy, whereas you can (still) get rooms for that sort of money (as you say, away from the Silom area). As well, you're forgoing the interest you could be earning on the money you've spent on your condo

I pay 14000 per annum maintenance for a one bedroom in Pattaya [2 studios combined] 60000 pa seems very steep
What size condo are you talking about
I bought a studio condo planning to live there when I retired. I find they are too small for comfort even though the original studio is about 3 times the size of the rooms available for 5000baht pm

[lonelywombat]

duplicated

I have several friends teaching english in Bangkok for many years ,they worked long days usually 7-9AM and then again 6-9PM and all day saturday and sunday. They were getting 200 baht an hour and averaged about 35000b per month. They survived living in rooms 12 foot x 9 foot with a bathroom the size of a telephone box. They ate only at the street stalls, drank Thai beer and later on mainly Thai whisky, never offed a boy from the bars but did well away from the Silom area in swimming pools and on the net .Now they have their own clients during the day, their income has doubled and they have almost dropped the hated weekend work . They can afford an occasional weekend in Pattaya to lounge around on the beach and drink in Sunee, but not to fly home for a visit. Medical insurance is a big part of their budget.

Maybe it is expats who cannot live on less than 65000 in Pattaya where every boy expects to be paid for his favours.
If you own your own condo no matter how small, then you are in a better situation from those who have to rent.

I guess that my perceptions are based mostly on colleagues who work at regular schools and universities as opposed to language schools, as well as on professional teachers (those who have been in the teaching profession for more than 5 years).

I personally rent a one bedroom condo with a full western kitchen on the river in BKK. I cook most of my own meals -- western and Thai, as it is not only my hobby, but I also find it relaxing. I never drink alcohol at home, finding no need for it, but I do have a few social drinks a month out with friends. In addition to Thai medical insurance from work, I pay for additional basic medical insurance which costs me about 8000 baht/year and allows me to choose my own hospital. Grant you, I do not leave BKK often but manage to do so several times a year. Purchasing the "services" of others is also a rare occurance for me (some months not at all, other months 2x/week), so this does vary considerably. I fly home every 2-3 years to visit family and friends.

I do this all on one job, which is well below the 65,000 threshold indicated here. Admittedly, I do hold down a second weekend job for a few hours on a Saturday, but that money is not part of my normal monthly budget. I try to funnel that into retirement savings or extravagant and unnecessary purchases like art work, more computer technology, etc.

I am not worried about the financially side but a lot of Pattaya seems so like the old men in the park opposite my home, they have nothing left in life, no challenges,no interests,nothing to look forward to except a lonely bed.And flinging themselves off the balcony?


Hi,

This is when you have hit the poverty line!

The food allowance for juvenile offenders is apparently 58 baht per day, according to this story on the rice crisis - http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/04 ... 070167.php (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/04/05/national/national_30070167.php)

There is a farang who has been living in Bangkok for a long time and lives with his casual partner (who does not work) on less than ├а┬╕┬┐ 30000 per month.
He rents his apartment which is pleasant and well located near public transportation. He has documented his annual expenditures many times and has even written about the issue for foreign newspapers.
I must say he lives well and enjoys his life. I cannot imagine that he has ever been bored.
He speaks Thai and I would guess that the majority of his close friends are Thai but certainly he doesn't exclude other farang.
I can say with certainty that he does not patronize professionals for sex but he hardly needs to since he always has some very attractive people around him with whom he is intimate and who are simply his good friends.
Also, I have never known him to hang around the bars that cater to tourists which are overpriced and more suitable for the desperate who have no other options.
I think most reasonable people would be rather envious of his lifestyle even were they to spend two or three times as much per annum.

...farang...lives with his casual partner (who does not work) on less than ├а┬╕┬┐ 30000 per month.
He rents his apartment which is pleasant and well located near public transportation.
I must say he lives well and enjoys his life. ... I think most reasonable people would be rather envious of his lifestyle even were they to spend two or three times as much per annum.

I think anyone would be envious, but it all depends what you mean by living well and a pleasant apartment. Take out the rent, whatever that may be in Bangkok, medical insurance for 2, visa runs (unless he has some way of getting around the regulations?), minimum maintenance/replacement costs for TV, telephones, etc, glasses/dental treatment, etc and for two people this really must be survival level. I, too, know those surviving on a similar amount in Pattaya and it really is not living well and not something I would recommend to anyone.

If the only people you are thinking about are doing "visa runs" and living in Pattaya, then you don't have a very good base on which to form your conclusions.

The person I have referred to has written for retirement journals in foreign countries and for investment firms in the West who advise retired people. Further he has lived in Thailand for many decades and speaks the language. I have known him for years. When I say he lives well, I mean exactly that. (Maybe you're from a Royal Family and have exceptional standards and expectations as many of the "queens" do on this board.) He certainly lives better than the average, middle-class retired person in places like England and America. Much, much better!

I guess this is probably more relevant to teachers new to Thailand and retirees without a lot of money. I was watching the news from home and there was a piece on poverty and people living in some pretty decrepit conditions. It made me chuckle because some of the places I have seen employed Westerners living in here in Thailand are worse! It kind of makes me wonder how teachers earning some of the really low salaries survive. There are some real rat holes out there being inhabited by some. Sad. http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/StickMar ... eLater.htm (http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/StickMarkII/BangkokADecadeLater.htm)

If the only people you are thinking about are doing "visa runs" and living in Pattaya, then you don't have a very good base on which to form your conclusions.

The person I have referred to has written for retirement journals in foreign countries and for investment firms in the West who advise retired people. Further he has lived in Thailand for many decades and speaks the language. I have known him for years. When I say he lives well, I mean exactly that. (Maybe you're from a Royal Family and have exceptional standards and expectations as many of the "queens" do on this board.) He certainly lives better than the average, middle-class retired person in places like England and America. Much, much better!

My point concerning "visa runs" was simply that if he (together with his partner) is living on "less than 30,000 baht per month", then he is unlikely to qualify for a retirement visa and this will be an additional expense, particularly now that the long-term visa regulations are being more rigidly enforced.

Whether he lives in Pattaya or Bangkok is largely irrelevant as far as basic living costs (food, rent, electricity, water, telephone, transport, medical costs, etc) are concerned as they are either comparable or Bangkok is more expensive.

Equally irrelevant is that he has "lived in Thailand for many decades and speaks the language"; this will obviously give him a good knowledge of where to go and how much to pay, but it will have little or no effect on his basic living costs or other essential expenses, such as medical insurance, hospital treatment, outpatient treatment, clothing, etc., or on major consumable items such as TV, computer, telephone, cooking equipment, fridge, bed linen, etc.

Similarly, I do not see why your being able to "say with certainty that he does not patronize professionals for sex .... hang around the bars that cater to tourists which are overpriced and more suitable for the desperate who have no other options" is evidently so important to you/him in the context of advising others on living costs. Like him, and many others here, I too am in a long term relationship and so do not "patronize professionals for sex"; neither do I "hang around the bars that cater to tourists (etc)", but that is a personal choice, not a financial one, and nothing to do with those bars being "more suitable for the desperate who have no other options" (which is a totally separate issue). Enjoying a cold beer with friends outside the local mini-mart may well be as enjoyable to some as one in one of "the bars that cater to tourists which are overpriced" is to others, but it is nice to have the choice - someone who is on "less than 30,000 baht per month" simply does not have those "other options".

I do not disbelieve you/him at all when you say that "he lives well and enjoys his life. I cannot imagine that he has ever been bored"; he is fortunate to be happy with the lifestyle he has and to be living within his means - that alone would rightly make many others "envious", but of him rather than of his lifestyle.

I know skilled Burmese migrant workers working in factories in Mabthaphut who are earning 120 - 150 baht per day (3,600 - 4,500 baht per month) who not only enjoy their life and live in reasonably pleasant accomodation (which they pay for!), but who are able to save money; would I recommend this budget to a farang thinking of living here - no.

I simply do not think it is either fair or reasonable to advise anyone considering living here that "less than 30,000 baht per month" will give two people a lifestyle that is one "most reasonable people would be rather envious of .... even were they to spend two or three times as much per annum" and that it is "better than the average, middle-class retired person in places like England and America. Much, much better!". If this is the serious advice given in "retirement journals in foreign countries" and by "investment firms in the West who advise retired people" then those giving it are totally irresponsible and it shows just what advice from such journals and investment firms is worth.

It is not a question of whether one is "from a Royal Family and have exceptional standards and expectations as many of the "queens" do on this board"; it is not a question of whether you enjoy living the simple life in Pattaya or Bangkok or if you prefer "professionals for sex" and "bars that cater to tourists"; the thread was about living costs here, which are quantifiable, not about whether someone "enjoys his life .... living on a little".

"less than 30,000 baht per month" will not, under any circumstances, give anyone (let alone any two!) the financial means to live "better than the average, middle-class retired person in places like England and America. Much, much better!". Do the maths.

[Aunty]

30,000 baht a month is probably about what most retired Farang will get from welfare (social security, age pensions etc) in their home countries when they have no other form of retirement income or savings. And there are an awful lot of old people living like that.

Given that the costs of living in Thailand are generally less than those of the developed world, 30,000 baht a month I would have thought would be sufficient to live perfectly comfortably in Thailand. Or at least it should be.

30,000 baht a month is probably about what most retired Farang will get from welfare (social security, age pensions etc) in their home countries when they have no other form of retirement income or savings. And there are an awful lot of old people living like that.

Given that the costs of living in Thailand are generally less than those of the developed world, 30,000 baht a month I would have thought would be sufficient to live perfectly comfortably in Thailand. Or at least it should be.

Hi Aunty, with respect, whilst I agree with you that 30,000 baht may well be enough to live on here in Thailand, I wouldn't consider it to be enough to live on, "perfectly comfortably." Personally, I know that I would not be able to live anywhere near as comfortably as I am fortunate enough to be able to do, on such an amount. Even in Thailand, having to get by on a thousand baht a day, would I believe, limit your options greatly as to where you could go and what you could do. That certainly applies here in Pattaya, anyway.

However, having said that, if you live somewhere else in Thailand, with the exception of Bangkok and Phuket of course, like Nong Khai as I did for six years, it would, from my own experience of that time, be very possible to do. There were times when I lived there, that I didn't even spend 30,000 baht a month. However, that is something I have never got close to accomplishing again, since moving back down to Pattaya. I wonder if there are others here that have been in similar circumstances to me, that would agree with what I have said.


Choc Dee Aunty,


George.

Given that the costs of living in Thailand are generally less than those of the developed world, 30,000 baht a month I would have thought would be sufficient to live perfectly comfortably in Thailand. Or at least it should be.

If you think so, why not try it for a few months - leaving any medical insurance, etc, behind, and including your visa trips (as you will not have enough for a retirement visa) and all your expenses!

While the cost of living is certainly cheaper than, for example, the UK, this is ignoring many of the basic requirements of living / surviving which are free / subsidised there for retired people, either to all or on financial grounds. These include medical care (NHS), subsidised dental/optical treatment, home medical checks (district nurse), transport (bus passes), mobile libraries, social clubs, food (meals on wheels), heating allowances, OAP fares/tickets, even housing.

It is very easy to say that Thais can do it for a lot less (and Burmese for even less than that!), but that is not considering family support in time of need / illness, 30 baht / entitled medical treatment, shared accomodation, etc. It all depends what you call "perfectly comfortably".

I agree 100% with what George said above. I have lived in Isaan (briefly), and also in a number of countries (for a considerable time), where not only could I live on well under 30,000 baht a month but where it would have been extremely difficult to spend anywhere near that amount as there was simply nothing there on which to spend the money - including food! There is a vast difference between living well on under 30,000 a month and living on well under 30,000 a month!

For Brown Sugar to say that he "lives well" on under 30,000 baht a month in Bangkok and to add that "He certainly lives better than the average, middle-class retired person in places like England and America. Much, much better!" is dangerously misleading to anyone thinking of coming here who may be naive enough not to look at a few basic figures.

The only difference a little personal embellishment (such as 6 years on the beat becoming a "lifetime vocation in the police" and "I raise a lot of money throughout the year for Rotary. We are talking about several million Baht.", or a semi-literate then in his early thirties becoming "the head of a major government civil service department") makes is generally to their own egos, but this sort of post, which is given as serious advice, deserves to be challenged - as, in my view, do those which say that there is a 50% chance my partner is a yaa-baa addict or a 30%+ chance he has HIV/Aids, just because he is gay and Thai.

[lonelywombat]

30,000 baht a month is probably about what most retired Farang will get from welfare (social security, age pensions etc) in their home countries when they have no other form of retirement income or savings. And there are an awful lot of old people living like that.

Given that the costs of living in Thailand are generally less than those of the developed world, 30,000 baht a month I would have thought would be sufficient to live perfectly comfortably in Thailand. Or at least it should be.

Have you ever been to LOS and how long did you stay. We know now what you would have thought but is it based on experience or even being here as a tourist or an expat just for a week or two as a trial

If I gave up everything to leave home and set up in a dingy room 4 metres square room , took a huge drop in standard of living, lived off street stalls, waived access to health insurance and gave up rent boys, maybe I could live on 30000bpm

But why in the hell would I give up everything to do so. Why do all these people living monastic lives in LOS, leave home.

If they left home broke to live in "paradise" what did they expect. Maybe the septics who have had a 30%drop in exchange rates have reason to complain. but not so Aussies or Kiwis.

[Marsilius]

"Maybe the septics who have had a 30%drop in exchange rates have reason to complain. but not so Aussies or Kiwis." - lonelywombat, above.

What a wonderful Freudian slip!

"Maybe the septics who have had a 30%drop in exchange rates have reason to complain. but not so Aussies or Kiwis." - lonelywombat, above. What a wonderful Freudian slip!Possibly. "septics" is short for "septic tank", rhyming slang = "yank".

[Aunty]

Sigh, how tedious.

The title of this thread is what is the poverty line for Farang in Pattaya? Not what is the minimum amount Farang need to live, in Pattaya (or Thailand), in a manner they would wish to. That is clearly a very different thing, and if one wants to live in Thailand according to Western norms and not Thai ones, 30,000 baht a month is not going to be anywhere enough. That I thought was bleeding obvious! Even the Thai set it at a minimum of 66,000 Baht a month which is set for the retirement visa.

Of course when it comes to money what you want and what you need are two very different things. You may want 80,000, 90,000, 120,000+ baht a month, to whore your way around Thailand each week but what you need to live above the poverty line is 30,000 baht a month. Given that many Thai families monthly income is well below 30,000 Baht, what are you saying? That most Thai are living in poverty, starving, homeless? Bullshit. Many Thai would consider themselves solid middle class on 30,000 Baht a month.

It's more likely that many of you silly old tarts are just too damn special to even fathom living on 30,000 baht a month. My God, you might have to fore go your back waxing and happy ending massages!

Sigh, how tedious. ..... what you need to live above the poverty line is 30,000 baht a month. Given that many Thai families monthly income is well below 30,000 Baht, what are you saying? That most Thai are living in poverty, starving, homeless? Bullshit. Many Thai would consider themselves solid middle class on 30,000 Baht a month.

Tedious indeed!

what are you saying?

1. If you think so, why not try it for a few months - leaving any medical insurance, etc, behind, and including your visa trips (as you will not have enough for a retirement visa) and all your expenses!

2. It is very easy to say that Thais can do it for a lot less (and Burmese for even less than that!), but that is not considering family support in time of need / illness, 30 baht / entitled medical treatment, shared accomodation, etc. It all depends what you call "perfectly comfortably".

Is that clear enough for you?

[lonelywombat]

I suppose Traveller Jim can give the answer.

I have had several PM asking what is the cost of health insurance for

1 an expat living in LOS regardless of age

2 an expat living in LOS younger than me [like everybody]

3 visitors for 2 to 4 weeks from overseas of any age

if you are visiting LOS and are over 70 which is cut off for most FF travellers cover , what is the alternative

[TrongpaiExpat]

if you are visiting LOS and are over 70 which is cut off for most FF programs, what is the alternative

65 for BUPA. I understand that they don't drop you at 65 if you have been with them since?? I have been with them since I was 52, 55 now, I'll let you know in 10 years if they drop me. The price went up every year.

www.bupathailand.com/ (http://www.bupathailand.com/)

I suppose Traveller Jim can give the answer. The Pattaya Ex-Pats' site is treasure trove of information - I'm surprised more people don't reference it here. This is their health care page - http://www.pattayaexpatsclub.com/healthcare.htm - but spending time going through their various pages is well worthwhile for anyone settling in Thailand (not just Pattaya)

[lonelywombat]

if you are visiting LOS and are over 70 which is cut off for most FF programs, what is the alternative

65 for BUPA. I understand that they don't drop you at 65 if you have been with them since?? I have been with them since I was 52, 55 now, I'll let you know in 10 years if they drop me. The price went up every year.

www.bupathailand.com/ (http://www.bupathailand.com/)

Thanks if I am around in 10 years i will await with bated breath. You have been a wonderful area of support

Thanks for caring