Piss Christ

Remember 1989?

How many Christians were offended by Andres SerranoтАЩs Piss Christ photographs?

or Chris OfiliтАЩs dung- and pornography-encrusted Holy Virgin Mary?

I dont remember seeing any reprints or cartoons in the Islamic Press at the time.

I know I was deeply offended - and I am a Muslim

Perhaps the majority of us Muslims have a better sense of values than you Christians when it comes to mocking anothers set of values

Now if you want these images reproduced I will be happy to oblige - only in the name of Freedom of Speech of course

By the way, I am not the only Muslim contributor on this forum - there a quite a few of us - I just happen to be more open about my faith

Should I be banned - is this forum only available to gay WASPS?

What about the Jews? Are they welcome as members here? Or Taoists? Hindus?
etc etc etc....

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Remember 1989?

How many Christians were offended by Andres SerranoтАЩs Piss Christ photographs?

or Chris OfiliтАЩs dung- and pornography-encrusted Holy Virgin Mary?

I dont remember seeing any reprints or cartoons in the Islamic Press at the time.

No, probably because they didnтАЩt have room for it with all the anti-Semitic cartoons they were printing.

To suggest, as you do, that the Islamic press have the high moral ground in the matter is just laughable



By the way, I am not the only Muslim contributor on this forum - there a quite a few of us - I just happen to be more open about my faith


I was not aware of that Uncle Fungus. Have you any ideas on how the site could be made more welcoming to those of the Muslim faith?

The one that jumps to mind first is of course that the constant adverts for gay pornography that you get on the homepage should be discontinued immediately as pornography is forbidden by pretty much all main strands of Islam, but after that I am a bit unsure. Perhaps all references to gogo bars should be bamnned from the message boards, or perhaps only those with photographs.

Have any other members got any ideas?

Paid for Piss Christ and Robert Mapplethorpe et al

Yes, UF - please re-post them here - but don't get depressed if no one starts to riot.

The images you refer to in your post certainly were meant by their creators to incite strong feelings, but I recall no violence resulting from them. Instead the religious right managed to get congress to rape the budget of the National Endowment for the Arts.

If the Islamic community felt that the Danish newspaper sought to intentionally cause insult, the way to hurt it would have been to stop buying the paper, boycotting its advertisers etc. - what the rioters managed to do was to reinforce the negative stereotypes of the Islamic community, and bring sympathy to the fourth estate and it's rights. They also managed to make sure that everyone in the world would go scurrying to see the offending images.

I always find it amusing when a Christian group sends out announcements to boycott a book, movie or play. The people behind the the medium in question could not buy better publicity as everyone rushes to "see for themselves" what the controversy is - putting money in the pockets of publishers, producers etc.

I come out of this experience a bit wiser - before the brouhaha, I had no idea that there was a prohibition on images of the prophet. Perhaps the Danish newspaper editors were also unaware, although that is unlikely.

All that said, if you want to re-post pictures of the images you mentioned above the I, as a Catholic (another group that can hardly be called "gay-friendly") won't say a word in protest. Despite some popular belief, Catholics don't worship statues or images (graven or otherwise)
but rather allow the portrayal of exemplary men and women throughout the history of our faith to act as inspiration to lives of holiness.

Speaking of Catholics - the whole pedo-priest thing has certainly shaded perception of the religion throughout the world - but like you say about those within Islam who perpetrate acts against the faith, in the name of the faith - those priests are not the norm for all priests - or for the church. That said - I will also note that the pedo-priest scandals came about thanks to complicity of varying degrees on many levels - so, like it or not, all Catholics must take responsibility to insure that this sort of thing stops happening. Likewise, all members of Islam, if they are truly offended by the actions of a few of their own, should feel it their sacred responsibility to prevent a minority to define the majority.


I am sorry if you have experienced offense at the words of some in this forum - but take a moment to recognize your own complicity in the matter. You seem to be inviting controversy - and thereby insult - by keeping these themes alive. And if you haven't noticed - there are always those who will gladly proffer all the insult you can eat.

I had been wondering if Piss Christ would raise his soggy head in this discussion - but I honestly did not think it would be you who brought it up - and not as tit-for-tat revenge on Christians.

I hope that Silom's posting of the cartoons about the rioting were not ad hominem attacks on you personally - I do not recall them or the rest of his post that well. If they were, well he has left the forum...and if not, I implore you, and all reading, to let this go.

Like the dinner table, perhaps politics and religion are not good topics for the *Gay Thailand* forums.

peace,
-r

..... I know I was deeply offended - and I am a Muslim

Perhaps the majority of us Muslims have a better sense of values than you Christians when it comes to mocking anothers set of values

By the way, I am not the only Muslim contributor on this forum - there a quite a few of us - I just happen to be more open about my faith

Should I be banned - is this forum only available to gay WASPS?

What about the Jews? Are they welcome as members here? Or Taoists? Hindus?
etc etc etc....

I think the majority of westerners are born into a Christian faith they have very little interest in. There is still the celebration of Easter and Christmas, but for the vast majority these are seen as days off work and comparitevly few attend religious events or go to church on a regular basis. So, what I am saying is that the production of Piss Christ may have seemed in bad taste to many westerners but probably did not cause the offence that Muslims felt at the production of the Danish cartoons. Westerners lack of interest in religion also probably goes some way to explaining our general lack of understanding at the outrage expressed by Muslims.

I have posted on this forum a comment that 'these were only cartoons' and that is it really worth the many deaths that have since ensued in protests and the subsequent violence. As a non believer I can stilll be sympathetic to those who have faith of any kind, however, it is or must be a two way street. The west, to a greater extent, allows freedom of speech and the right to express opinions which some may find obscene, as long as the intention is not to cause racial hatred or incite violence. The cartoons may be seen to be a bad judgement call but if we are to support people's freedom to say or do as they wish then we have to accept that sometimes things will be said, filmed or printed that we do not believe in, that we may dislike and that may cause some offence.

I do not know of your persoanl experience on this board but I do not think about anyones ethnicity or religion when I am posting a message or a reply to a message. I think of this board as a place to freely express my opinions on topics raised and as an informative database for events, gay venues and other related information. I do not understand your questioning of whether Muslims, Jews, Hindu's etc are welcome here and personally I find it offensive that you question whether the posters here are racially or religiously exclusive, however, you have the right to question the posters motives and the running of the board, which goes back to my original point about freedom to say and do as you wish.

Should I be banned - is this forum only available to gay WASPS?
It should be perfectly clear by now that I'm an agnostic and I regard anyone who believes that he can both belong to a mainstream religion and screw (Thai) boys to be be a complete hypocrite. I do remember piss-christ and thought it was in poor taste. Nevertheless freedom of speech has nothing whatsoever to do with good taste or whether someone will be offended. The usual test is the statement attributed to Voltaire - "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Most people may say that's their belief also, but usually practice its opposite - "I disapprove of what you say, and I will deny to the death your right to say it". That seems to be the practice of all the major religions (including state-sponsored Buddhism) and most politicians

If you don't accept Voltaire's view all well and good, but please don't be a cry-baby and suggest you should be banned from here because you don't belong to us privileged few :bounce: