Yaba - and the Boys You Love

[Dodger]

YabaтАж(crazy medicine)
If you donтАЩt think youтАЩre being affected by Yaba, youтАЩre missing the boat. If the information IтАЩve been gathering is correct, thereтАЩs a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba and youтАЩre probably not aware of it.

According to the experts (if there are any on the subject), Yaba was originally manufactured by the Nazis to help keep their troops awake for days, Yaba has become increasingly popular in the Far East amongst claims that the drug is now bigger than heroin in Thailand. According to other reports IтАЩve read, Yaba usage in Thailand has increased 1000% over the past 3 years to become the KingdomтАЩs #1 problem effecting society.

Yaba is a derivative of synthetic amphetamines such as speed and can be manufactured far more quickly and easily than traditional forms of amphetamine.
There doesnтАЩt seem to be a consistent description of ingredients and effects, although, most reports state that the drug is mostly methamphetamine, running 80% pure with much of the cut being castoff from heroin production

The drug usually comes in pill form (often red/orange, sometimes green) and with its potent mix of visuals and intense highs, with the producing areas straddling the borders of Thailand, Burma and LaosтАжthe infamous Golden Triangle.. The side effects include an intense hallucinogenic effect and can keep users awake for days on end, although some users have reported that the only visuals come as a result of sleep deprivation after binge sessions. If you ever questioned how the boys can stay up literally all night, and sometimes several nights in a row playing cards games, Yaba could very well be the stimulus.

Yaba is highly addiction, and regular use of the drug has been linked to lung and kidney disorders, hallucinations and paranoia. A frequent hallucination is 'speed bugs' or crank bugs' where users believe that bugs are crawling under their skin and go loopy trying to get them out. In Thailand, the number of students entering rehab to deal with Yaba addiction has risen by nearly 1,000% in the past two years (source: Observer 17.10.99). Those coming off the drug are also susceptible to severe depression and suicidal urges.

According to my bf Su, who is a recovering Yaba addict, the most common pills being sold in Pattaya are the red colored ones, and they sell between 200тАУ300 baht per pill. He also said that thereтАЩs as many boys selling Yaba as there are using it on the streets, and itтАЩs as easy to buy as a pack of cigarettes. Considering the sheer volume of Yaba flowing down to places like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket, it appears (IMO) to be nearly impossible for the bar owners to deal with it effectively. Evan if a bar owner institutes strict policies against their staff using it, many of the managers and mamasans, who in turn would be needed to enforce the policies, are users themselves.

Su was arrested twice within a 60 day period for failing the тАЬpee testтАЭ, and was still permitted to return to his workplace. Some of you may remember that huge police raid in Sunee Plaza back in the September, 2007 timeframe, where the BIB hauled off dozens of working boys from several of the most popular bars along Soi Sunee. Well, my little honey was one of them. He never returned to work after that incident, although itтАЩs not because the bar wouldnтАЩt have allowed him to return, as conversely, they offered him his job as waiter back the same day he was released from the monkey house. It was because he simply had enough. At least thatтАЩs what IтАЩm hoping for.

It wasnтАЩt until after SuтАЩs first month of recovery from Yaba that the real truth started to surface regarding his addiction. When I first dragged him out from behind the bars of the Pattaya Police Station, he told me that he had only been using Yaba for about 6 months, and that his usage was limited to once or twice per week. Minimizing is just one of the colorful characteristics of a drug addictтАжrationalizing, intellectualizing, and just flat out denial, being a few of the others. After spending his first 30 days of recovery back living on the farm with the family (and yours truly)тАжseveral sessions with the village monkтАжseveral lectures by the family eldersтАжand a normal balance of food and sleep for that period, the truth finally started seeping out.

He dropped his first hit of Yaba during his first month on the working scene in Pattaya and continued using it at increased frequencies since that point. So the 6 months that he first stated тАУ was actually 3 years. He went on to describe the effects of the drug, as well as the severe depression that inevitably follows. The more I learned about the тАЬeffectsтАЭ of this deadly drug, the more fearful I became. So many things started to fall into place, which, before his disclosure to me, had me totally baffled, e.g., his rollercoaster mood swings, crying spells, money lies, etc., all became crystal clear to me. Hell, before I just chalked this stuff up to the fact that he was a ladyboy (tongue in cheek) The fearful part for me is not knowing for sure if he can make to road to recovery. According to all my reading on the subject, someone put a number out there of 70% of those addicts who will, after a short attempt at recovery, return to use it again, and I have no reason to doubt that assumption.

If there is a support system for the young Yaba addicts in Thailand, than itтАЩs somewhere hidden well beyond my capacity to discover. Since my bfтАЩs problem first surfaced, IтАЩve done everything from questioning medical staff at both; the Pattaya General Hospital, and Bumrungrad Hospital in Bangkok, the Pattaya Police Chief, several Thai university professors, and most importantly, the addicts themselves, and my conclusion isтАжthere is absolutely no support system in sight.

Most Thais believe that almost any problem in life can be dealt with through the family and the local temple. Believe me, IтАЩm not cutting the Buddhist monks short on their talents for understanding deep and complex human problems, but there needs to be more. If Yaba addiction is ranked as the # 1 problem effecting the youth in the Kingdom, then whereтАЩs the solution? WhatтАЩs even more puzzling, where are the attempts for a solution. The # 1 problem facing the society in the entire Kingdom, and you canтАЩt even find a brochure on the subject. When these young people get released from the hospital emergency room following a suicide attempt due to Yaba addiction, theyтАЩre lucky if the doctor even tells them not to use it any more. ThereтАЩs no written literature to give them to help close the knowledge gap тАУ no support hot lines тАУ no AA or NA Group interactions тАУ no nothing. ItтАЩs literally - out-the-door. The same lack of social responsibility exists within in the legal systemтАжthatтАЩs if you can even call this corrupt and chaotic cartoon тАЬa system.тАЭ

Su has now been recovering for 2 ┬╜ months. Fortunately, he has a strong family support system, which includes a mother and two grandmothers who can take turns holding onto his ears, a large loving family, a small group of village monks who understand the situation, and, last but not least, that Playstation2 game I gave him to keep him busy at night. With a little luck, the passing hand of Buddha and a good tail wind, he just may make it. As much as it pains me (in oh so many ways), I won't be hanging my hat at the condo in Pattaya on a full-time basis as I have consistently for the past 9 years, and will instead, be traveling between Su's village near Si Saket and a few other places we plan to visit. We'll visit PTY several times I'm sure, although will have to change our life style patterns considerably. We both have great friends in PTY who we'll want to see, although, as Su as addmited, many of those past friends, unfortunantly, will have to be off the list.

If Su has a compulsion to stay up all night getting rushes - I'll be right there entangled with him and give him all the rushes he wants...LOL.

Mai pen rai

[catawampuscat]

yaabaa acts as an appetite suppressant and serious yaabaa users are usually quite skinny and eat very little. If your Thai friend
is painfully thin and getting thinner, one reason could be yaabaa.
Staying awake all nite is another sign as is crashing/sleeping afterward.

I have been told that one can easily buy a urine testing kit and find out very quickly if your friend is being honest with you.
Drug addiction is a nightmare for most and not one I am willing to get involved with, at least knowingly.
Alcohol abuse, heavy cigarette smoking, compulsive gambling are just some more of the vices that entrap boys living the high life of the bright lites of Sunee
Plaza and Pattaya/Jomtien..
The easy money makes it all possible and is part of the dark side of the scene most of us enjoy so much. :cat:

If you donтАЩt think youтАЩre being affected by Yaba, youтАЩre missing the boat. If the information IтАЩve been gathering is correct, thereтАЩs a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba and youтАЩre probably not aware of it.And this "statistic" comes from ... where, exactly?

You don't really need a urine test, just have a look at the colour of his piss.

As long as they don't use it while working, unless you are too. But I thnk it probably isn't so good for the erection department.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

and rather liked it !!..which is probably why it's so dangerous.

I don't think it was just the Nazis who popped pep pills..aren't they supposed to have created psychiatry and Prozac according to Tom Cruise

You don't really need a urine test, just have a look at the colour of his piss.

What colour would that be, for us uninitiated?

Well in my experience deeply murky yellow/gold and a bit thicker than normal but not syrupy.

Well in my experience deeply murky yellow/gold and a bit thicker than normal but not syrupy.

I have no experience of yaa-baa, or yaa-baa users (at least as far as I am aware), but this is a very poor indicator of whether someone is using yaa-baa - many over the counter drugs have this effect on urine, such as lipitor.

[Dodger]

Homi,

Regarding the 70% statistic: This is based on a compilation of information I've gathered on the topic which included public information which can easily be found on the Thai internet, direct discussions I had with several doctors and members of the illustrious Thai police crew, all of which are in the mainstream of the flow of the victims of Yaba, and a hand full of addicts as well. According to top ranking police in PTY, well over 70% of all those incarcerated in PTY jails are for crimes, including homicide, which are directly linked to Yaba usage. According to the statistics being thrown out there, and first hand information from those who deal with this problem directly on a daily basis, there is an estimated 2,000,000 Yaba addicts in Thailand, most of which are under the age of 35, with the most concentrated effected areas being those where young people cluster to work in the sex industry.

When I asked Su about the number of yaba users in Pattaya alone, his answer was easy to remember...he said just about everybody. In an attempt to understand this a bit more quantitatively, I ask him how many boys in his old bar were addicts and he responded by saying that there were 4 or 5 boys who never used Yaba. He had to take a minute counting these guys using his finger tips. Note that he worked in the largest and most popular bar in Sunee Plaza which has over 60 boys on its staff. Based on everything I've learned, 70% may even be a conservation estimate for a "hot bed" like PTY.

Diao maa

You can not determine yaba usage by the color of a persons urine.

Many pharmacies in PTY sell small Yaya detection kits which function identical to those the police use during their raids.

[Sen Yai]

..... there is an estimated 2,000 Yaba addicts in Thailand, most of which are under the age of 35, with the most concentrated effected areas being those where young people cluster to work in the sex industry.

When I asked Su about the number of yaba users in Pattaya alone, his answer was easy to remember...he said just about everybody.

So, only 2,00 addicts in the whole country and yet 'just about everybody' in the whole of Pattaya is a user http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/SenYai/Emoticons/wacko.gif

I think you need to find some more reliable statistics before drawing any conclusions here.

[Dodger]

Sen Yai...

Thanks for catching the error.

Quote:


So, only 2,00 addicts in the whole country

I intended to say 2,000,000. I'll correct this.

[dab69]

You don't really need a urine test, just have a look at the colour of his piss.
.

I am not often invited to watch them piss


long ago meth was considered a study aid.
it's really brain rot.

[Sen Yai]

I intended to say 2,000,000. I'll correct this.

Actually I was more surprised by your assertion that virtually the entire population of Shitsville is on yaba!

When Su said 'just about everybody' don't you think he meant just about every go-go boy in Sunee?

According to top ranking police in PTY, well over 70% of all those incarcerated in PTY jails are for crimes, including homicide, which are directly linked to Yaba usage. Ah yes, Pattaya. Frankly, I wouldn't expect anything else. However extrapolating from Pattaya to real life so "there's a 70% chance your boyfriend is using Yaba" is somewhat of a stretch. Could we get an assurance from George that 70% of the boys in his bar don't use Yaba, do you think?

[dab69]

this concerns us how

george doesn't owe us any explanation of anything

If the information IтАЩve been gathering is correct, thereтАЩs a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba and youтАЩre probably not aware of it.

According to top ranking police in PTY, well over 70% of all those incarcerated in PTY jails are for crimes, including homicide, which are directly linked to yaba usage

When I asked Su .... he said just about everybody

Based on everything I've learned 70% may even be a conservation (sic) estimate for a hot bed like PTY

Dodger,

even if the statistics you have are correct, such as 70% of crimes in Pattaya being directly linked to yaba usage, they do not support your conclusions - unless, that is, you are saying that there is a 70% probability that our Thai boyfriends are incarcerated in Thai jails!!

If you are correct, why is the overall percentage of those tested in police "raids", which you would expect to target the most likely users, relatively low - nearer 7% than 70?

While not wanting to cast doubt on Su's objectivity as to whether "just about everybody" , especially the "managers and mamsans" uses ya-ba, I cannot help thinking that it looks as if you are using his addiction as the excuse for all his (and your) problems - "money lies, mood swings, crying spells", etc and assuming that all will be fine once he recovers. His "minimizing, rationalizing, intellectualizing and just flat out denial" seems to have rubbed off on you. Anyone who has been caught speeding, jumping a red light, fiddling their taxes, etc, will claim similarly that "just about everybody" does it - that is an excuse, not a statistic.

I doubt if anyone would deny that ya-ba is a very real problem in Thailand, but it is difficult to believe that it is as widespread as you claim; sadly, it is more likely that your "little honey" has convinced you that his ya-ba addiction is the norm, which it is not.

this concerns us how. george doesn't owe us any explanation of anythingOh come now - as the Forum's Resident Pimp he owes a duty of care to possible customers of his bar

[Dodger]

Gone Fishing,

I appreciate your feedback, although the more I read your response the more convinced I became that you're drawing some conclusions that may be swaying you.

The information I gained from Su was taken with a grain of salt considering his situation. As I stated in my opening remarks, characteristics like rationalizing and defocusing are just part of the addicts mind-set, and for this reason, I did not draw any conclusions based on his input in-and-by-itself.

I also believe in facts - versus hear-say, and for that reason, dedicated many hours to learning more about the Yaba problem in Thailand by reading reports published by independent researchers, as well as one-on-one discussions with the authorities I mentioned earlier. If you feel that the problem, the way that I've explained it, is exaggerated, then that's your opinion, although not one that would be shared by anyone who has to deal with this problem routinely like the hospitals, schools, police, and last but not least, the families and loved ones who get dragged into this.

As far as your remarks regarding me and Su, and all of our problems going away once he recovers, you couldn't be farther off base. It's not me that I'm concerned about to begin with - it's him, thus the reason I've taken the initiative to learn more about this problem.

I appreciate your feedback, although the more I read your response the more convinced I became that you're drawing some conclusions that may be swaying you.Thank god that's not true of you, Dodger :cyclopsani:

[Dodger]

55555...

I have to hand it to you Homi, that was a good one.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

since under Mr Thaksin all the drug pushers were ( accidently ) shot. :scratch:

[colmx]

Hi Dodger
With the greatest of respect i think your 70% figure is way off the mark...

Perhaps I'm reading your original post wrong, but are you suggesting that 70% of the boys working in bars are yaba addicts?

With a price of 250-300B per tablet these days (up from 50-100 before the Drug "wars") I don't think there are many Thai boys who can afford to be addicts

Also have you not seen the amount of fat boys working in the bars these days?

I had a Bf who was a yaba addict before, looking back at it now it was easy to see his addiction, mood swings, Wide eyes, veiny features, hot and clod flashes, frequent visits to toilet cubicles with friends etc.

However since him I have only come across one boy on Yaba, that was on this my last trip, as soon as BF realised he was high - he dispatched him from our company.

From my experience and research they say there are 250,000 yaba addicts in Thailand, that would out the figure at around 3-5% of the general population....

I think HIV is the far greater danger than Yaba addiction...

[dab69]

this concerns us how. george doesn't owe us any explanation of anythingOh come now - as the Forum's Resident Pimp he owes a duty of care to possible customers of his bar

because some long winded no life net loser says so- i dont think so

[zinzone]

Congratulations to Dodger for this posting; whatever any disagreement re statistics it is always beneficial to be reminded that in Thailand as elsewhere in the world there is a drug problem, and helpful to know the signs and symptoms.
Well done again!

... in Thailand as elsewhere in the world there is a drug problem ... Only if you believe drugs are a "problem". My double pink gins (taken intravenously) are of course not a problem because alcohol is a legal drug in many parts of the world

[Alaan]

....................................It is interesting that despite the amount of boys using yaba and/or some other kind of drugs...... and the amount of interaction the members here have with them on a daily basis [either through one-nighters or boyfriends] I am amazed at how rarely it comes up in posts on this and the other gay thailand forums.

I'm not sure if this is because many of the members, especially the older members, are unable to recognise the signs of a drug user and live in blissful ignorance, or if many of us who are actually aware of the widespread use of yaba/drugs simply just don't want to think too much about it or admit and confront or discuss its usage...... preferring just to accept and live with it as part of the 'darker side' of Pattaya where we have our fun.

I have no knowledge of drug user numbers or yaba addict statistics...I have only my own experience of boys I have known or boys who have the knowledge and have been prepared to discuss it with me over the years..... but although I would be very wary of accepting figures of 70% for yaba ADDICTS as opposed to users including occasional usage, I'm fairly sure that the use of yaba/drugs/stimulants is definitely much more widespread than many visitors and expats are probably aware of.

I hope that it is not straying too far from the main topic of Yaba addiction, to mention other drug and stimulant usage as I tell of the experiences of my very first visits to Pattaya 7-8 years ago when I knew at that time [yaba didn't seem as prominent then] that the bar i used to visit in Pattayaland 1 had 10 out of the 20 boys working there smoking Ganja on a daily basis. One of the two friends I knew from this bar who told me this, also told me he smoked a joint everyday before work.

He said 'how do you think I can smile so nicely, dancing in my underwear and then having to be nice to, in some cases, obnoxious customers [i say customers and not farangs, as many boys have told me that Thai and Asian customers can be just as obnoxious as some farangs] fondling me and having to kiss them even though i don't like it and still have to appear happy' he said it was the ONLY way he and many others could do the job.

So it seems that in many cases drugs go hand in hand with this type of industry. I think it would be a shock to many if they actually realised that even the most unlikeliest type of boy can be a user, and from my experience there seems to be a far greater percentage of occasional users as opposed to those actually addicted.

Gone Fishing's comments probably reflect most members experiences in that he reckons that he has had no experiences with yaba users/addicts...but he does have the good sense to add the caveat 'at least as far as he is aware' and it is this caveat I fear is the reason that most members probably do not realise just how widespread drug usage actually is in Pattaya.....lack of awareness or knowledge.

The unfortunate thing about drug usage, especially addictive... is that it can turn a previously nice respectable boy to the petty crime of theft, even from someone he knows and likes, even his friends... how many members have boyfriends and boys who 'lose their mobiles'... many boys have told me over the years of their so-called friends stealing phones and money from them.

I personally have no problem with non-addictive light drugs such as Ganja used in the privacy of their own room... in no way do i put up with any of the boys i am with having Ganja on their person or using it in my company if I am aware of it... and hate and loathe Yaba and the heavy addictive drugs like heroin and cocaine....these are the drugs which cause so much crime [petty and serious] as well as, if anyone who has known an addict will know, destroying lives.

Anyway, I'm no expert, and these are just my comments on drug use, in my experience and as I have come across it.

So, basically we should focus on slightly fat boys with huge erections and almost closed eyelits.
Shouldn't be too hard and if the yaabaa users find out, that their "fatter" colleagues are more favorite, they'll start to eat more and more, and than there's no money left for yaabaa. (I think I start to believe myself!!)

[Dodger]

Alaan,

Your comments helped me understand an error (maybe several) that I made in the original posting:

Quaote:


I would be very wary of accepting figures of 70% for yaba ADDICTS as opposed to users including occasional usage,

I should have been using the term "users" versus"addicts" which has really skewed the facts.

In an effort to help clarify:

Based on everything I've been able to learn on the subject, it is estimated that 70% of the boys (and girls) who live and work in places like Sunee Plaza - Boyz Town - Patpong, etc. are Yaba users. The percentage of those who have actually become addicted to Yaba and use it on a daily basis would be a smaller portion of this percentage. According to my conversations with the police, as well as officials of the Court in Pattaya, the figure of 70% pops up again when describing the number of persons behind bars who have committed a crime which is somehow connected to Yaba; Either the distribution of Yaba, use of Yaba, possession of Yaba, theft for purposes of getting Yaba to feed an addiction, or, at an escalating rate - homicide. Thailand has also imposed a shoot-to-kill policy up near the Triangle for any person found with more than 5 pills on their possession for these very reasons.

Just for the record, I've smoked Ganja myself on several occasions, and if I got off my ass now and searched my apartment I'm sure I'd find a few Acapulco Gold roaches somewhere. I grew up in a big city in the 60's and 70's and played a bass guitar in a rock band for 12 years to earn a living. With the exception of heroin, I've probably trying everything out there, although steered clear of the heavy (addictive) stuff after watching many of my friends disintegrate. I'm only saying this to let you know that my knowledge of drugs is fairly broad and I'm not one of those people who freaks out when they hear about someone getting high.

It's my opinion that the vast majority of farangs visiting, or living in places like Pattaya, Bangkok, Phuket, especially in-or-around the core of the sex industry, are ignorant of their surroundings when it comes to this. I've sat back and watched drug (Yaba) deals going down sometimes within 10 feet of where a farang is sitting without him being having the slightest notion of what's going on.

Another major disadvantage that we farangs have, is the fact that we don't understand the Thais language. They can be sitting right in front of you at a gogo bar or karaoke making plans to score a few hits of Yaba for later on in the night, and for all you'd know, they were talking about the weather.

The trafficking of Yaba is the # 1 problem facing the Kingdom right now, and due to the fact that Yaba is so inexpensive to manufacture, making paupers wealthy almost over night, the problem can only get worse. The police have arrested Thais as young as nine years old who have Yaba either on their possession or in their blood, some of which are fed the drug for illicit purposes. The boys working in our beloved Pattaya are probably in the worst position, because the drug is literally all over the sois, and just as tempting as a hit of good hashish was to me back when I first started growing pubic hairs.

I apologize for misrepresenting the facts with some of the percentages I threw out there, but unfortunately, the fact still remains, that this problem is continuing to escalate...and there's no solution in sight.

Dodger,

I am not trying to make light of the problem, and I agree that it is serious and escalating, but I simply cannot accept your broad brush statement that "there's a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba and you're probably not aware of it" Even though you have now amended this to include "users" (and I think there is a big difference between a user and someone who tries a drug once), and to be based on those working in Sunee/Boyztown/Patpong, etc, I have yet to see any evidence to support your figure of 70%.

When I said I had no experience of ya-ba users / addicts (as far as I am aware) I was being specific to ya-ba; that does not mean that I "lack awareness or knowledge" of those using other drugs / substances / solvents, etc which can have equally if not more serious permanent effects long after a glue-sniffer, for example, has given up the habit.

Like you, "I also believe in facts" and the only verifiable fact that gives a clear indication of the numbers involved, including both addicts and a proportion of occasional users, is the number of those testing positive in the very public and high profile police raids, which could be expected to be on the high side as they are targeted at those most likely to be involved. This number is nowhere near 70% - as I said before, it is nearer to 7. I ask again, if you are correct, why?

I have only spent a few minutes, rather than hours, looking up some statistics on ya-ba use in Thailand, and found some surprising "facts".

USA Today (2003):

... an amphetamine use rate of just under 5% and an addiction rate of a little less than half a percent ... (as a percentage of the Thai population)

Mahidol University - Youth Risk Behaviour Survey (2005):

37.8% one time use ........ 4.6% heavy use

Asia and Pacific Amphetamine Type Stimulants Information Centre (APAIC) (2007) (UN Office on Drugs and Crime):

... the trend in abuse has been reported as on the decline since 2003

... number of admissions of amphetamine users to drug abuse treatment programmes: 29,063 (from a total of 38,679 drug users)

... Methamphetamine related arrests: 2004: 68,774 2005: 35,966 2006: 50,123

... Methamphetamine pill seizures: 2004: 31.000,000 2005: 15,781,346 2006: 13,820,000

... 772 public and private voluntary drug treatment centres nationwide report directly to the Office of the Narcotics Control Board ... 689 hospitals / centres (608 run by the government and 81 by NGOs)

... Thanyarak Hospital, now formally the Thanyarak Institute for Drug Abuse, is the drug treatment focal pont ... in South East Asia (I actually took a Thai friend there for treatment 14 years ago)

[Bob]

While I also don't agree that the national average for kids (let's say 16 to 24) even approaches 70%, I can understand that a given bar or two might have 70% of the boys using it. There's peer pressure, having it easily available makes it easier to use, etc.

On the other hand, I also don't believe that moderate/heavy use of yaba is limited to less than 10% of the same age group. It's just too prevalent on the street corners, the universities, etc. (at least according to Thai friends of mine). I don't have a clue where USA Today or the others got their data (probably from the Thai government or TAT...hahaha).

Bob,

Mahidol University's Youth Risk Behaviour Survey, made in 2005, covers everything from child abuse, rape, violent crime, drug use and practicing homosexuality to the wearing of helmets and seatbelts. It's data was independently sourced and it is strongly endorsed by the UN. Its figures of 37.8% one time / occasional use and 4.6% heavy use in the risk group would seem to still be reasonably accurate and consistent with data from APAIC.

APAIC's figures are independent from those of the Thai government, and occasionally at variance with official Thai figures, particularly where the "war on drugs" is concerned. Where this occurs they explain why, and they give a comprehensive list of sources.

I have not put any links, as the simplest internet search brings them up, as well as details of the many voluntary and compulsory drug treatment / re-habilitation programmes. Although I have been to Thanyarak, to take a Thai friend for treatment and to visit him while he was there, it was some 14 years ago and I was unaware of how much they had progressed; as some of the local undercover drugs squad who I knew were well aware of Thanyarak then, as they should have been, I am more than surprised that some of those who should know, such as the local police chief and the hospitals, are unaware of it now.

[Dodger]

Gone Fishing,

Can you please give us some links to the rehab programs in LOS that you mentioned. This would be very helpful, as I failed to locate any when I was last in country.

Also, if the stats you posted were related to Thailand, they are wrong, as they show a noticeable decrease in meth usage - and unfortunately, the trend in the Kingdom is going in the other direction at a rate of about 1000% in the past 3 years.

Unfortunately, I'm back in the U.S. and can't navigate to the same research sources that I was able to find while in LOS, although, the straight facts (fuck the stats) are there in plain sight for any of you guys who presently in LOS.

[Dodger]

If anyone is interested in learning more about the FACTS surrounding the Yaba epidemic in Thailand, I recommend reading the link I've attached just under this one section of the article below. This was published by TIME.

In country after country throughout Asia, meth use skyrocketed during the '90s. And with the crash of the region's high-flying economies, the drug's use has surged again as battered, tired populations try to work through their hangovers with even more mad medicine. If you used the drug to push yourself to work harder when the region was on its way up, you then used it to alleviate the boredom of unemployment when the region was on its way down. It has now become a continent-wide crisis, one that is creating millions of addicts and threatening to cripple societies barely on the mend from an economic cataclysm and still wrestling with huge numbers of addicts hooked on more traditional drugs like heroin. The numbers reveal a region with an increasingly lethal need for speed: in Japan, between 1995 and 1999, the amount of methamphetamine seized, a pretty good indicator of usage patterns, increased from 85 kg to nearly 2,000 kg�about 65 million hits. The story is the same in South Korea, where there are now more than 7,000 meth-related arrests annually, up from just 479 in 1992. In Indonesia, 218 kg of shabu were seized in 1999, up from just 3 kg two years earlier. The amount of ice confiscated in China doubled in 1999 and then doubled again last year to 20.9 tons. In Taiwan, speed now accounts for 85% of all drugs seized; in Cambodia, police seized 35,000 amphetamine tablets last year, up from 22,000 in 1999. And in Thailand, the government estimates that an astounding 800 million yaba tablets were imported and consumed last year�enough for every man, woman and child in the country to smoke a dozen each. A U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration agent who has worked in Asia for many years warns: "The opium war may be nothing compared to the Asian meth war."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,100581,00.html

[francois]

I asked my Thai bf how many boys in the go-go bars used yaba. His reply was all of them in Soi Sunnee!

[Dodger]

Here's another interesting link with more FACTS.

http://www.moaa.org/TodaysOfficer/Military/yaba_1.asp

The spread of yaba has been one of the fastest-growing drug epidemics the world has ever seen. Since 1998, the Thai government has reported a tenfold increase in yaba consumption. All sectors of Thai society have been affected. Truck drivers, rich businesspeople, and even Buddhist monks have become yaba addicts. One Bangkok research center estimated yaba abuse costs Thailand more than $2 billion per year in lost productivity. (Thai religious experts estimate 10 percent of the country's Buddhist monks are addicted to drugs.)

[Dodger]

And yet another interesting link from the Asian TIMES:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/EA17Ae02.html

The softly-softly approach with the prickly Myanmese generals appears to be at odds with the latest Thai intelligence reports predicting a flood of methamphetamine pills swamping the Thai market this year. While Thaksin stresses the importance of friendly diplomatic relations with Yangon, up to a billion yaba ("crazy medicine", as the Thais refer to speed) tablets from the UWSA-controlled drug laboratories inside Myanmar's Shan are expected to be smuggled across the border this year. Thailand already has an estimated 250,000 addicts and is now facing an epidemic of yaba addiction.

[Dodger]

Francois,

Thanks for your input.

Quote

I asked my Thai bf how many boys in the go-go bars used yaba. His reply was all of them in Soi Sunnee!

I've spoken to 7 or 8 of the working boys who are daily Yaba users (addicts) in Sunee and they all come up with the same statement, although, according to my bf, there are a few boys in each gogo bar who avoid using it.

[Dodger]

Gee...see what 10 minutes of surfing will give you:

Link: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/EE07Ae02.html

The government's anti-drug crusade arose out of the disturbing reputation Thailand has gained - in a population of 62 million people - as many as one in 17, or 5.9 percent, of Thais aged 15 years and above are hooked on yaba. This Southeast Asian country, according to United Nations figures, is the world's largest user of methamphetamines.

Dodger,

Can you please give us some links to the rehab programs in LOS that you mentioned. This would be very helpful, as I failed to locate any when I was last in country.

I do not want to stop you from trying yourself, but most of the steps that will have to be taken for a voluntary programe will have to be seen to be initiated by Su, not you; the policy at Thanyarak 14 years ago,understandably, was that as places for re-habilitation were in short supply only those who genuinely wanted to be treated were. The first hurdle, for example, was that it was not possible to "book" places in advance, but that they were given on a strictly first come-first served basis, irrespective of whether you were "hi-so" or an Isan peasant, rich or poor; the queue outside, which we joined early the night before, was probably the most cosmopolitan cross-section of Thai society I have ever seen in one place! You can try writing (Thanyarak Hospital, 504/1 Viphavadi Rangsit Road, Thanyaburi District, Bankok) but do not expect the same attention you would get as a paying customer at the Betty Ford Clinic.

There are two basic programmes: Fast Model, inpatient treatment, 3 weeks +, based on the US "TC" model, and Fresh Model for outpatients, visiting 3 x per week.

Check www.animai.moph.go.tv/6thglbal/field6.php for basic information.

Also, if the stats you posted were related to Thailand, they are wrong, as they show a noticeable decrease in meth usage

What they actually show is the number of methamphetamine-related arrests and pill seizures, not meth usage, which could be as much a reflection on the Thai Police as on any increase or decrease in the amount of meth usage.

They are, however, unarguably facts. APAIC has an extensive website (start with www.apaic.org/trends/thailandnew), and I prefer to get my "facts" from organisations of that type than from the likes of Time, Newsweek and the Asian Times. I think we will just have to agree to differ on this.

I accept that you may be frustrated, but if you want help from anyone it may be more politic not just to tell them that "they are wrong"!

Unfortunately, I'm back in the U.S. and can't navigate to the same research sources that I was able to find while in LOS

Try Google - I think you will get a similar service.

I've spoken to 7 or 8 of the working boys who are daily Yaba users (addicts) in Sunee and they all come up with the same statement (... all of them in Soi Sunnee)

Of course they do, and it is totally meaningless; as I said before, concerning Su, this is simply excusing their addiction on the basis that as everybody is doing it, it is the norm and thus more acceptable - if you accept this in any way, particularly to him, then you are only reinforcing his denial. Far from helping him with sympathy, kindness and night-time cuddles, you are displaying weakness which he, as an addict rather than as your wedded partner, will exploit.

I am not minimizing the problem, which is considerable, nor am I running down your efforts and your motivation, but I think you are sensationalizing the problem and at the same time giving him (and you) an excuse for a way out. The ball is very much in his court, not yours, but it is up to you whether you just hold his hand while he lets it go by, or you drag him over to it so that at least he gets the chance to take a swing. I am far from an expert in this area (for that you will need to go to Thanyarak yourself), but I have "been in your shoes" on more than one occasion. Kisses and cuddles doesn't work - vicious but fair just might.

[Dodger]

Gone Fishing,

Thank you for the information, although a lot has changed in the last 14 years since your experience with that rehab center, and what I'm really interested in is the name and/or location of a rehab center that deals with recovering yaba addicts, not a reference to a place that provided some kind of service 14 years ago before yaba evan made it's way to Thailand. If your interested in doing some serious research for a serious reason - then by all means continue sending me your recommendations. But I'm not interested in, or the least bit entertained by your obvious attempts to turn this thread into some kind of "I'm Right - You're Wrong Ass Grabbing Contest." If that's what floats your boat, go find another bathtub to play in.

My motivation for posting this topic was to stimulate intelligent conversation about a major problem facing the youth of Thailand, not to debate about statistics. You also seem bent on trying to connect this post (controversial as it became) into a stage where my BF's rehabilitation is at the center focus (your focus anyway), and that is not the intent of this post. Your perceived notions about my hand-holding and cuddling my bf through his rehabilitation, and the statement you made about me and him just looking for a way out, is not only absurd, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic. I'm sure all the members here were submersed in all that "tuff love" stuff several decades ago. Again, your advise is seriously outdated.

You surfed the internet like a madman to find some statistics that would contradict points I was making in this post, and when you couldn't find any, you decided to throw some stats on your thread which would give our readers the perception that the yaba problem we're addressing (or trying to address) is declining, when in reality, the problem has been escalating at such a furious pace, it has become, without question, the # 1 problem facing the Kingdom. Now, if that's not sensationalizing, I don't know what is.

So do me a favor, and either find some way to offer some intelligent feedback on this topic...or go fishing.

[Bob]

Gone Fishing: I understand you're just reporting the facts as reported; however, I still don't believe their data based on conversations I've had with Thais that I trust. Having talked to bar boys I have known and basing most of what I've heard from comments from two university (non-bar) guys in Udon Thani and Chiangmai, they paint a much worse picture (not that 5.9% is anything that's good).

[dave_tf-old]

I tend not to trust statistics gathered by policing organizations and NGO's. Both have substantial interest in inflating numbers. NGO's may use statisitics gathered from government agencies (including Police) and extrapolate associations in populations that are simply incorrect. One could say that the rise in pills seized in the country meant mor efficient police work and extrapolate that the drug was becoming harder to find, rather than easier, and more expensive, rather than cheaper. It's only those dealing with the problem on a local level that have any understanding of the problem in their community that makes any real difference. If that community is limited to ONE, then there is little margin of error.

So I applaud Dodger's commitment to the health of his community of one.

I'm another not unfamilar with drug culture and not a nervous nellie about soft drug use. However, I live in a rural area of the US that is undergoing its own plague of methamphetemine use and am alarmed at the addictive qualities of this class of drugs.

I don't have any 'he said, she said' relevant information to share, but I have had some experience with a community of ONE who was addicted to cheap heroin about 10 or 12 years back. He was also using some kind of 'upper' on occasions to couteract the lethargy-making properties of his main drug. May have been Yaya, maybe another. I didn't know anything about Yaba back then.

I was as helpless as a kitten in trying to get help back then, so I also appreciate the call for current info on drug rehab available in the Kingdom. I even considered going to the police for help, but didn't know (given the reputation of the police) whether that would do more harm than good.

My friend eventually went to prison where he was to serve two years as a first offender. My assistance got him out before his full term was served--an action which I still don't know was wise.

He was arrested again a couple of years later and I believe served a mandantory term. Last I saw him, he was clean. I've told part of that story on a previous incarnation of this forum and won't repeat it here.

I have to say that, given the horror stories I've heard about Thai prisons, he came out in better shape than he went in in both cases, which I'm sure says more about life on the mean streets of Bangkok than is does praising the prisons.

His long term prognosis is iffy if my intuition is correct, but that's the case with most of these guys.

The only other thing I can add is to remind the reader that drug use is a subset of any population--that drug addiction is a subset of that--and that life-long chronic drug addiction is a subest of that. If there were 10 Billion pills on the streets, not everyone would even choose to use.

What's scary about this drug is the psychoactive component and the unpredictability of behavior in the user. If you don't love him, its best to leave him alone.

What's scary about this drug is the psychoactive component and the unpredictability of behavior in the userWas Heath Ledger a user?

[Hmmm]

Here is the Mahidol study from the Journal of Adolescent Health referred to by GF:

Summary:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15737779&dopt=AbstractPlus)
Full text:
http://www.ra2.mahidol.ac.th/rar/Resear ... survey.pdf (http://www.ra2.mahidol.ac.th/rar/Research_new/2005/03march/Youth_risk_behavior_survey.pdf)

Bob,

remember that that percentage is of the overall Thai population, so it actually means some 3,500,000 people, and proportions would be far higher for those in the 15-30 group, particularly if they are in a fringe group, such as bar workers. The Mahidol University study from 2005 I quoted put one time / occasional use in their target age group at 37.8%, and this would probably be higher amongst bar-boys than amongst the students on whom their study was based. I would have thought a good guide would have been the numbers testing positive in the police raids, although there are still a lot of variables there, but my point on this has been dodged each time I raised it.

Hmmm,

thanks for the link and for taking the time to look at the study; it makes some interesting points.

Dodger,

I am genuinely disappointed by your comments.

.. a lot has changed in the last 14 years since your experience with that rehab center, and what I'm really interested in is the name and/or location of a rehab center that deals with recovering yaba addicts, not a reference to a place that provided some kind of service 14 years ago before yaba evan made it's way to Thailand.

As I explained very clearly when I first mentioned Thanyarak, APAIC (the Asia & Pacific Amphetamine Type Stimulants Information Centre, of the UN Office on Drugs & Crime) cite it now as "the drug treatment focal point for South East Asia". You previously asked me for details of "the rehab programs in LOS", and that is exactly what I gave you, complete with a brief summary of their ya-ba rehabilitation programmes, which are now their primary focus, and a website with more information. As you dismiss it as "... a place that provided some kind of service 14 years ago ... etc" I can only assume you have been too busy reading magazine articles to check this.

If your interested in doing some serious research for a serious reason - then by all means continue sending me your recommendations.

I sent you the "recommendations" when you asked for them, as you were unable to find them yourself; rest assured I will not waste my time doing so again.

But I'm not interested in, or the least bit entertained by your obvious attempts to turn this thread into some kind of "I'm Right - You're Wrong Ass Grabbing Contest." If that's what floats your boat, go find another bathtub to play in.

My posting here, and presumably others, is not intended solely to interest or entertain you. When you are the owner / moderator of this board, you will be in a position to tell those who disagree with your unsupported "facts" to leave; fortunately, you are not.


My motivation for posting this topic was to stimulate intelligent conversation about a major problem facing the youth of Thailand, not to debate about statistics.

You introduced statistics in the first line of your post, when you said that "If the information I've been gathering is correct there's a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba". I disagreed strongly with this statement, and expained why. You went on to say that "Based on everything I've learned 70% may even be a conservation estimate in a 'hot bed' like PTY" - soon after you had to "apologize for misrepresenting the facts with some of the percentages I threw out there". Without authenticated statistics, "facts" are just opinons.

You also seem bent on trying to connect this post (controversial as it became) into a stage where my BF's rehabilitation is at the center focus (your focus anyway), and that is not the intent of this post.

The majority of your initial post concerned your BF's addiction and problems of rehabilitation. My posts, if you read them, made only a passing reference to Su, concerning his objectivity (as a ya-ba addict) as a source of reliable information, until you asked me for details of rehabilitation programmes.

Your perceived notions about my hand-holding and cuddling my bf through his rehabilitation, and the statement you made about me and him just looking for a way out, is not only absurd, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic.

Holding his hand was a metaphor, such as the ball being in his court in the same line; the "cuddles" refer to your statement in your opening post that "I'll be right there entangled with him and give him all the rushes he wants". I never mentioned his looking for a way out - I was referring specifically to you.

I'm sure all the members here were submersed in all that "tuff love" stuff several decades ago. Again, your advise is seriously outdated.

Which is why, in the last line of that post I wrote "I am far from an expert in this area (for that you will need to go to Thanyarak yourself).

You surfed the internet like a madman to find some statistics that would contradict points I was making in this post, and when you couldn't find any, you decided to throw some stats on your thread which would give our readers the perception that the yaba problem we're addressing (or trying to address) is declining, when in reality, the problem has been escalating at such a furious pace, it has become, without question, the # 1 problem facing the Kingdom.

I only wish my internet connection speed made it possible to surf the internet "like a madman", but finding facts and statistics to contradict you took very little time. I have repeatedly made the point that I am not making light of or minimizing the problem, and stated "I agree that it is serious and escalating"; my figures actually put the number of users at considerably higher than yours. Whether or not it is the # 1 problem facing the Kingdom is, actually, debatable; some would say that forming an effective government that could deal with ya-ba addiction was a greater problem.

So do me a favor, and either find some way to offer some intelligent feedback on this topic...or go fishing.

I had thought that by giving you the exact detailed information you asked for and need to help Su, which had been "well beyond (your) capacity to discover" despite "questioning medical staff ... the Pattaya Police Chief, several Thai university professors and ... the addicts themselves" , I was doing you a favour. Clearly I was wrong, and your priorities are elsewhere.

[Dodger]

Gone Fishing,

I guess it was your "metaphor" involving Su that started to irritate me. If the meaning (and intent) behind your statements (and metaphors) were really intended to be focused and objective, as your last clarification seems to suggest, then I apologize for coming at you like that.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but my bf and I were married during his very early recovery period following a 3 year addiction to yaba, which, admittedly, is something most sane people would never even consider. If you were to categorize me as someone who definately has a screw loose, I would be the last one to argue with you, but please don't think for a minute that I'm looking for a way out.

All I did was try to get him centered in a support system where at least he'd have a chance, knowing full well that a large percentage (I'll avoid using a number) of those who attempt to recover fall dead in their tracks. As insane as I know this sounds to you and everyone else, I did it for two reasons: 1) I'm an optomist, and believe that anythings possible, and 2) I love him too much to turn my back on him.

Next week will mark 90 days of Su living without yaba flowing through his blood, but it hasn't been all down hill. His family deserves much of the credit for dealing with his eractioc mood swings and bouts of depression on a daily basis, although, most of the credit goes to him. This also marks the longest period in 3 years that he's been able to resist the ultra-powerful magnet of Pattaya, which, in my opinion, is the root cause of why so many fail in their attempts at recovery. I'm aware of the fact that this can all change tomorrow, as I've watched too many of my friends back in the Windy City relapse time-and-time again, but as far as this one moment in time goes, all's well.


mai pen rai

hi,

I just got a call at 5 in the morning from Thailand. I have a friend, a 45 year old woman, who is taking care of a boy, yes he is legal age, no he is not boyspecial or anything like that. Anyway she called me and said, that she is sure that he is taking drugs, yabaa, and that he started stealing to support his addiction. He is working in her restaurant.

I am quite sure she is going to send him on his way any time soon if I cant come up with at least a hint of a solution, after reading through the postings there is not a lot of hope really. She does care for him though, because she knows his story which is hell and back and back I suppose...

Dodger, have you found something that can be done in terms of therapy or places people can be sent to, if they have people that support them? I think he is determined to let go of that shit, but thats just not enough and friends do the rest. Please PM me.

Is there anybody out there who has some sort of success story to hold on too?

MaX

[Dodger]

murxi,

I'll PM you regarding more on this topic, although will share a few things with you here.

Success in these situations can only be measured in small amounts as the process of recovery is a long and risky road.

Su is in his fourth month of recovery and doing better than I could have hoped for, although, learning as I go, don't think he would have much of a chance without his family support system. I was told by a doctor at the Banglamong Hospital BKK that the only true support system for a Thai, especially those coming from a life of poverty, is the family and the local temple. After hearing this my first reaction was one of disappointment, although after observing Su's recovery, I'm not so sure about other more structured (professional) recovery programs as being capable of reaping any better results.

I'm finding that the spiritual aspects of the Buddhist faith which connect most of these families to life itself can be very strong medicine, at least that seems to be the case in Su's situation. Another real advantage he has is a very loving and determined mother who has been willing to be there at his side through this whole mess.

If the boy you're referring to has a family to go back to - that would be my first suggestion, although the family would have to know the truth about his addiction, which I imagine is the first major milestone.

I'll PM you soon to discuss some more.

mai pen rai

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

sending the lad off to the monks who specialise in getting these boys of the yaba habit. Don't know how they do it but when they come back after a few months they look absolutely wonderful.

I know one lad who has been 3 times..and that's the problem..he has slipped back into taking the pills once he is around town and old company.

Lets be clear..yaba isn't really that bad..it's a mild form of speed..the problem is that you do have a good time on it and become psychologically dependant much like cocaine users do and the come-down isn't so good. Plus-it's a bloody cheap drug in Thailand.

In the west-it's just plain old speed old hippies (like me) used to take but stopped as I couldn't handle the come-downs. And yes-I've had yaba twice and I liked it but just a little too much to try a third time.

In the west-it's been replaced by ICE..a far worse drug than yaba that really is sending users totally bonkers.

[Dodger]

Lunchtime...

Quote:


In the west-it's been replaced by ICE..a far worse drug than yaba that really is sending users totally bonkers.

Unfortunately, Ice has already made its way to LOS and is now the "drug of choice" on the sois, although it costs five times as much as yaba which limits its circulation.

And for the record: Yaba and those little "White Cross" speeders we used to pop back in the seventies are two different animals, with yaba being ranked as one of the most addictive drugs on the planet. It ranks right up there with heroin.

[Aunty]

I know one lad who has been 3 times..and that's the problem..he has slipped back into taking the pills once he is around town and old company.

Relapse is a sad part of recovery! What is it that you old alchies say, Lunchtime, it's only when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired that you finally quit?

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

not the 70's !..I wouldn't have been so crass as to be still taking drugs by the 70's for chris sakes !..I even met Timothy Leary and wore flowers in my hair ! and what on earth are "little white cross speeders" ??..you youngster are impossible.

at least my supplies came directly from my psychiatrist boyfriend and were called purple hearts and did us no harm..well OK he ended up as a patient in his own clinic. Actually I would dispute that even heroin is that addictive-in it's purest form..not that I've ever had it.

Yes ice is certainly a frightful drug and I once watched a woman deck 3 London policeman trying to put her in paddy wagon which was very entertaining but she looked quite terrifying and I believe the brain goes into meltdown.

I suppose it all depends on what strength the yaba pills are and knowing me the person could have given me and old aspirin and I would had some sort of flashback and thought I was back in Haight Ashbury.

But as you can see..none of this has affected me in the slightest.

dodger,
well, there is no family to rely on.
I know his mother she is addicted to alcohol big time, he actually hates her for that. she does not even have a proper id card or any other papers any more one of his motivations to leave this vicious circle was to take here in and take care for her, that would be a very long way anyway. There is not even electricity where she lives... no more details.
as for buddhism he was a temple boy for two years and has very bad memories about it.
There were a few little steps towards being able to support himself without using street knowledge. That seems lost now, once again...

ok, dont even know why I wrote this, maybe just to make sure that there is no way out of this?
better be no more public posts about that

pen rai
MaX

murxi,

I have no wish to start a fruitless debate again, but I can assure that there are a number of support systems available in Thailand for those who want to use them. Thanyarak is the best known and would be the best place to contact for advice; I have posted details of this previously in this thread, as well as details of their programmes.

Unless he genuinely wants to stop, rest assured that he will find some way of avoiding formal treatment and ensuring that none is available.

Even Thanyarak rate their success rate as no better than 20 - 25%, but that is considerably better than temples 5 - 15%, or families (1 - 5%).