Isaan diary - Article in the Economist

[kittyboy]

I ran accross this article in the Economist. I thought some of the board members would be interested in reading it.

http://economist.com/daily/diary/displa ... d=10486622 (http://economist.com/daily/diary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10486622)

I ran accross this article in the Economist. I thought some of the board members would be interested in reading it.

http://economist.com/daily/diary/displa ... d=10486622 (http://economist.com/daily/diary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10486622)

It's not of much interest to me Kitty, but I am sure your desired drinking buddy Hommie, would find it so. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/biglaugh.gif

Being serious Kitty, whilst the family in question in the Economist article are by no means unique, families living in the same comfort as them in Issan, as well as sharing the same educational background, would be extremely few and far between.

I have spent many years living in, as well as visiting Issan and I can tell you from my personal experience, that the highlighted family in this article, are very much the exception to the general rule.

I am certain that others here that have any knowledge whatsoever of Issan, as well as how the greater majority of it's inhabitants survive there and the type of homes they live in, will validate what I have said.

However, on a posotive note, it's always been my favourite province in Thailand, as well as the people being my favourite too. You would be hard pressed to find more kind and friendly people, anywhere on our planet.


G.

... as well as the people being my favourite tooAs they should. After all, aren't 100% of the boys in your new bar from Isaan?

... as well as the people being my favourite tooAs they should. After all, aren't 100% of the boys in your new bar from Isaan?

As you have stated on many occasions that you will never visit Pattaya, as to whether or not the boys in my bar are from Issan or not, is something I guess that you will never know for certain, is it? Neither for that matter, is it any business of yours where they are from. I am surprised somewhat, that it is even of any interest to you.

I am sure you will not be pleased Hommie, when I say, that by making remarks such as those above, you are giving more credence to Aunty's words about your obsession and envy of us, than you would perhaps care to. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/whistle.gif

Cheers,


G.

[Bob]

Could you boys perhaps continue your so very very interesting repartee in the PM department? I didn't realize this board acted as a open email service between the two of you.

Thanks for the post, kitty. Interesting article although not exactly the typical Isaan family as noted.

Could you boys perhaps continue your so very very interesting repartee in the PM department? I didn't realize this board acted as a open email service between the two of you.

Bob, with respect, I don't believe for one minute that anyone is holding a gun to your head making you read Hommie's or my posts, so if they upset you as they appear to be doing, you can choose another very simple option in order to prevent this. It is also an alternative, that may also save you what appears to me as some obvious stress on your part.

That other option being of course: Don't read them


G.

That other optopn being of course: Don't read themSurely it's open to Bob to put us both on {Ignore}? That's another option (or optopn)

That's another option (or optopn)

Glad to see you are awake Hommie and spotted the deliberate mistake. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/smile_blush.gif Now edited.


G.

[kittyboy]

Thanks for the post, kitty. Interesting article although not exactly the typical Isaan family as noted.[/quote]
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I suspect that you are correct that some of those mentioned in the article are not "typical" of an Issan family. What I thought was interesting were the comments on the social changes taking place in the area.

The increasing materialism and the errosion of village values, etc... If that is the case then those social changes will impact all the people in the Issan region.

I suspect that having written that some posters will Immediately tell me how that is incorrect that the thais have always been materialistic, etcтАж.. blah blahтАж

That very well could be the case. However, from reading the article there are social changes taking place in the Issan area. That is what I think is intersting about the article not that it does or does not represent the "typical" family living in the area.

I unignored my ignores as a New Year's moritorium and to see if they had said or were saying anything interesting. It was a mistake.

Could you boys perhaps continue your so very very interesting repartee in the PM department? I didn't realize this board acted as a open email service between the two of you.

Bob, with respect, .........., you can choose another very simple option in order to prevent this.....

George, this may be better PM'd, but on the other hand it may save others sending you a similar message. Your sparring partner is already on my "ignore" list (currently a list of one), as I have no interest in wasting my time reading his posts, but I have found some of yours interesting, informed and constructive; with respect, I would prefer to continue to read your posts, but only as long as I can avoid having to scroll through your personal correspondence to do so.

The article itself is worth reading, as some of the observations are interesting, but it is woefully poorly researched for a major international magazine's South-East Asia Correspondent.

The signs in trees he refers to as being an indicator of religious change are commonplace ("repent now", etc), including around Pattaya; all they indicate is that some zealot can write and climb a tree, nothing more.

His maid's father owned "50 rai of rice fields" - hardly typical.

He refers to "Mr Thaksin's new People's Power Party" - hardly accurate (even if arguably true).

He says that the Isaan dialect is not a dialect, but "what they speak is really Lao" - this may be correct according to his friend, the American lecturer at Ubon University, but most Isaan people I know would not agree (nor can they speak Lao!)

It is mainly interesting to see how a little knowledge can lead to some strange conclusions, which are then taken as totally authoritative by many of those reading it.

[mj_87-old]

The article itself is worth reading, as some of the observations are interesting, but it is woefully poorly researched for a major international magazine's South-East Asia Correspondent.

The signs in trees he refers to as being an indicator of religious change are commonplace ("repent now", etc), including around Pattaya; all they indicate is that some zealot can write and climb a tree, nothing more.

His maid's father owned "50 rai of rice fields" - hardly typical.

He refers to "Mr Thaksin's new People's Power Party" - hardly accurate (even if arguably true).

He says that the Isaan dialect is not a dialect, but "what they speak is really Lao" - this may be correct according to his friend, the American lecturer at Ubon University, but most Isaan people I know would not agree (nor can they speak Lao!)

It is mainly interesting to see how a little knowledge can lead to some strange conclusions, which are then taken as totally authoritative by many of those reading it.

Darn Right Gone Fishing тАУ

Those signs in the trees are an indication of a bunch of zealots putting up signs in trees. It could not possibly indicate anything more than a bunch of tree climbers needing something to do.

50 Rai of rice fieldsтАж You are so correctтАж In my reading of the article it was clearly stated that owning 50 Rai of rice fields is the norm.

And the PeopleтАЩs Power Party тАУ Hardly accurate (even if arguably true.). You are so right. It is false but really true.

And as for the dialect of - well of course a university lecturer who lives in the area could not know what he was talking about.

Wikipedia is of course wrong as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phu_Thai_language

I just wish everyone was as well informed as you.

[Bob]

He says that the Isaan dialect is not a dialect, but "what they speak is really Lao" - this may be correct according to his friend, the American lecturer at Ubon University, but most Isaan people I know would not agree (nor can they speak Lao!)


Rather puzzling statement to me as I know that northern Thai can fairly easily converse with Laotians (there are some differences but I've seen an Udon Thai and a separate Chiangmai Thai talk back and forth with people in Luang Prabang). I asked them (my Thai friends) if the language was the same and they told me "not same but similar" (or words to that effect). Being able to read some Thai myself, I noticed that I could somewhat read some of the Lao signs (although there are a few letters/scripts I didn't recognize at all). Then, when touring a sculpture park east of Nong Khai, Thailand, I noticed writing that looked like what I had seen before in Luang Prabang.

The history book says all of this area was populated by the Tai from southern China 1000+ years ago so it's not surprising that the languages/dialects are so similar.

P.S. As an aside, I listened to a lady last night explain the five meanings of a mandarin chinese word which sounds like "ma" (one version with falling tone, rising tone, flat tone, low tone, and high tone - same as in Thai). What struck me is that one of the versions means horse (same in Thai), one means "to come" (same in Thai), one means "dog", etc. (her pronunciations and explanations of the meanings sounded identical to me as to what the Thai texts and audiotapes state). Again, fairly obvious that Mandarin Chinese and Thai stem from the same initial language.

Again, fairly obvious that Mandarin Chinese and Thai stem from the same initial language.Ask a Cantonese speaker to number one to ten and you'll hear many similarities. Thai has some commonality also with Malaysian - the word for language in Thai - phasa - sounds very like the Malay word for language - bahasa - for example

Ask a Cantonese speaker to number one to ten and you'll hear many similarities.


Yat and yee are one and two respectively in Cantonese, Colonel , but most numbers after that are very similar to Thai; which leads me to believe that most Thais talked about one, two and many until the Southern Chinese arrived to trade. Strangely the similarity is greater than between Cantonese and modern Mandarin!

I was in Hong Kong last week and horified at the amount of Mandarin I was hearing. Happily, Cantonese is alive and well in Richmond, and boy do those BCers whinge about it.

mj_87,

I presume you are being sarcastic. As I said to ikarus, there is no need to quote a whole post - and as I also said to him, I have never claimed to be "well informed".

The main point of the article, as the author wrote, was to show " .... signs of global pervasiveness ...." as " it seems .... that some of Bangkok's pundits .... underestimate how much Isaan has changed." I highlighted the points I did to show how poorly researched the article was, as these are all readily verified as incorrect by anyone who takes the time to do so.

He clearly infers that "foreign religions" and the "little signs in Thai" in trees / on lamposts are something new, while they are not - missionaries like the "two bicycling Mormons" have been in Thailand for a very long time, and I can remember seeing similar signs here twenty years ago. If you or he have specifics on Christianity, or any other religion, being more readily practiced in Isaan then I look forward to being corrected.

"50 rai of rice fields ...." the article actually reads "....Peter Vail, the anthropologist that we met yesterday, says that the household is typical ....". I would say that was pretty ".... clearly stated ...."

".... Mr Thaksin's new People's Power Party ....". This is factually incorrect; it is "arguably true" as it is currently the subject of debate in the Thai Courts.

".... the dialect ....". I readily admit to being mistaken here in attributing this to an "American lecturer" while it was actually a point made by " a young lecturer " the author met at the university. Wikipedia is far from being wrong. The specific article you refer to concerns the Phu Thai language which it describes as " .... a dialect of the Isan or Lao language with a few differences .... this language group is increasingly becoming integrated into the mainstream Isan language"; the article itself is graded by Wikipedia as the lowest of 6 grades on a quality scale, being "possibly useful to someone who has no idea what the term meant". Bob's Thai friends echo Wikipedia's "definitive" articles on Isan and the Isan language when they say it is "not same but similar", noting that " .... the language is still sometimes referred to as Lao, either by Thais pejoratively noting the similarities or by older people who may still regard themselves as part of the Lao ethnic group. " Wikipedia is very clear that just because Isan speakers can understand Lao and vice-versa, this does not mean that " .... what they speak is really Lao ...."

Sarcasm really is the lowest form of wit - those who use it should ensure they have done their homework first. :cherry:

- missionaries like the "two bicycling Mormons" have been in Thailand for a very long timeMy favourite missionary position for Mormons is to invite one of them to give me a head job while the other reads appropriate passages from The Book of Morons

For some reason that sends them scampering :idea:

[mj_87-old]

mj_87,

I presume you are being sarcastic. As I said to ikarus, there is no need to quote a whole post - and as I also said to him, I have never claimed to be "well informed".

The main point of the article, as the author wrote, was to show " .... signs of global pervasiveness ...." as " it seems .... that some of Bangkok's pundits .... underestimate how much Isaan has changed." I highlighted the points I did to show how poorly researched the article was, as these are all readily verified as incorrect by anyone who takes the time to do so.

He clearly infers that "foreign religions" and the "little signs in Thai" in trees / on lamposts are something new, while they are not - missionaries like the "two bicycling Mormons" have been in Thailand for a very long time, and I can remember seeing similar signs here twenty years ago. If you or he have specifics on Christianity, or any other religion, being more readily practiced in Isaan then I look forward to being corrected.

"50 rai of rice fields ...." the article actually reads "....Peter Vail, the anthropologist that we met yesterday, says that the household is typical ....". I would say that was pretty ".... clearly stated ...."

".... Mr Thaksin's new People's Power Party ....". This is factually incorrect; it is "arguably true" as it is currently the subject of debate in the Thai Courts.

".... the dialect ....". I readily admit to being mistaken here in attributing this to an "American lecturer" while it was actually a point made by " a young lecturer " the author met at the university. Wikipedia is far from being wrong. The specific article you refer to concerns the Phu Thai language which it describes as " .... a dialect of the Isan or Lao language with a few differences .... this language group is increasingly becoming integrated into the mainstream Isan language"; the article itself is graded by Wikipedia as the lowest of 6 grades on a quality scale, being "possibly useful to someone who has no idea what the term meant". Bob's Thai friends echo Wikipedia's "definitive" articles on Isan and the Isan language when they say it is "not same but similar", noting that " .... the language is still sometimes referred to as Lao, either by Thais pejoratively noting the similarities or by older people who may still regard themselves as part of the Lao ethnic group. " Wikipedia is very clear that just because Isan speakers can understand Lao and vice-versa, this does not mean that " .... what they speak is really Lao ...."

Sarcasm really is the lowest form of wit - those who use it should ensure they have done their homework first. :cherry:


Peter Vail, the anthropologist that we met yesterday, says the household is typical in that the grandparents have several grandchildren living with them while the middle generation is away working in Bangkok. N├▓i and one of her sisters clean homes, while two brothers drive taxis. But another sister, Oi, still lives locally and has set up a business making sports clothing for school pupils and teachers. N├▓iтАЩs mother proudly shows a photo of a teenage grand-daughter who studies engineering at Ubon Ratchathani UniversityтАФthe first family member to advance into higher education.

When N├▓iтАЩs father was younger, he used to farm 50 rai (eight hectares) of rice fields. Now, with his sons off driving cabs in Bangkok, he can only cope with 17 rai, and needs hired help at harvest time.

Gone fishing I think you should also read more carefully - The author say the household is typical in that the grandparents have several grandchildren living with them while the middle generation is away working in Bangkok.

The author does not say that the family is typical with an average farm size in the area is 50 rai, and my reading of the article is that the guy has 17 rai of land which is under the average farm size in the Issan region which appears to be 22.1 as of 2001. http://www.icarrd.org/en/icard_doc_down ... ailand.pdf (http://www.icarrd.org/en/icard_doc_down/national_Thailand.pdf)


As for the signs... are they more common today than they were before? If so one could surmize that there is more proselytizing by foreign religous groups. Are morman missionaries more common today than in previous years?


As for the language - My research dug up the following -- So some consider the Isan dialect to be a diaect of Lao. Who are those some? I don't know. Probably people who work in the field of linguistics. Just a guess.

The main language of the region is Isan, which is similar to Lao. Considered by some to be a dialect of Laotian, but written in the Thai alphabet Isan is among the Chiang Seng and Lao-Phutai languages, which are members of the Tai languages of the Tai-Kadai language family. Central Thai Thai is also spoken, with regional accents, by almost everyone. Khmer (the language of Cambodia) is widely spoken in regions near the Cambodian border (Buriram, Surin, and Sisaket). Most of the population is of Lao origin, but the region's incorporation into the modern Thai state has been largely successful.

I think I will stick with sarcasm.

I think I will stick with sarcasm.The safest bet, in my experience

mj_87,

my final words to you on this and any other subject, as you have replaced Homintern in my ignore list - at least he can read and comprehend the written word and has some original thought (even if I do not always agree with him!):

The author say the household is typical in that the grandparents have several grandchildren living with them while the middle generation is away working in Bangkok. .... The author does not say that the family is typical with an average farm size in the area is 50 rai, and my reading of the article is that the guy has 17 rai of land which is under the average farm size in the Issan region which appears to be 22.1 as of 2001. http://www.icarrd.org/en/icard_doc_down ... ailand.pdf (http://www.icarrd.org/en/icard_doc_down/national_Thailand.pdf) As is abundantly clear from your quote, he does not say where their being "typical" starts and ends - a key ommission in any accurate article. The "average farm size in the area" has nothing to do with the average Isaan family, most of whom do not own farming land, and has as much relevance as the size of the "average" ranch in Texas has to the "average" Texas family; your introduction of the size statistic only goes to show just how un-typical they are - kind of you to emphasise my point.

As for the signs... are they more common today than they were before? I don't know, as I can only go by the I have seen them myself, and know of no accurate survey of them or the bicycling mormons; the article clearly infers they are something new, making no mention of either being seen before at all.

As for the language - My research dug up the following -- So some consider the Isan dialect to be a diaect of Lao. Who are those some? I don't know. Probably people who work in the field of linguistics. Just a guess. Why guess - Wikipedia is "definitive" on this point and I even quoted the article for you, which you have re-quoted - again, very kindly emphasising my point.

This petty bickering can be of little interest to most readers; sarcasm suits you, reasoned argument does not.

[mj_87-old]

He says that the Isaan dialect is not a dialect, but "what they speak is really Lao" - this may be correct according to his friend, the American lecturer at Ubon University, but most Isaan people I know would not agree (nor can they speak Lao!)

Here is your original quote - You clearly state that most Isaan people you know can not speak Lao. I think it is clear that the Thai they speak is a dialect of Lao. Though you seem to have changed your original post to reflect that new understanding of the issue. I wonder why you changed your original posting?


I have to tell you Gone fishing I have a hard time following your arguments.

You clearly stated earlier that the family was not typical because they owned 50 rai of rice fields. And again my favorite --- He refers to "Mr Thaksin's new People's Power Party" - hardly accurate (even if arguably true). Let me paraphrase you -- It is false but really true!

My point in making these postings.. in my opinion, you and others focused on trivial little details in the story that you disagree with and then tell everyone that story just could not have any merit.

Trivial minds focus on trivial things perhaps.

The larger issue of the story is that globalization is changing the regions. In my very humble opinion that might be an interesting topic to discuss.

DELETED

I ran accross this article in the Economist. I thought some of the board members would be interested in reading it.

http://economist.com/daily/diary/displa ... d=10486622 (http://economist.com/daily/diary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10486622)



You would be hard pressed to find more kind and friendly people, anywhere on our planet.


G.


You haven't been to Laos then George?

Actually John, I have been there several times and was in fact there in the past week. I must say that the people there are special too, as well as being very kind. That fact is one you would know more than most.

I hope it is not too long before you able to make another trip and return there again yourself.

Choc Dee,


George. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/Peace.gif

I forgot to say in my reply to you above; that although I didn't post in your thread upon your return, I would like you to know that I too am pleased to see you posting again. You have been missed by many, as I am sure you would have seen by the many posts in that thread regarding your illness.

Well JB, let me assure you that no one has missed you more than me. Admittedly my reasons for this may be a little different to the others here, in as much as my pleasure in seeing you posting again, is because things have been relatively quiet here on the Forum during your enforced absence, so it's good to once more have my old adversary and sparring partner back with me. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/boxing.gif

Thought I had better set the record straight as far as this goes, after all, like me, I am sure you wouldn't want people being under the misapprehension that just because you have been ill, we have managed to repair some bridges and actually like each other now. I can see your reaction to that, something like this http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/eek.gif and hear you saying: Buddha perish the
thought. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/biglaugh.gif

Whilst your above reply to my post was extremely mild in comparison to those you have made in the past, although you still have a lot to contend with on the road ahead to what will hopefully be your full recovery, it does give positive signs that you are heading in the right direction and on the mend.

I am sure we will be able to gauge how you are doing in the coming months by your future replies to me. I mean that in as much as; the more abusive they become, the better we will know that you are getting. For the first time I can ever remember saying so, I am very much look forward to this abuse. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/Wink.gif


Choc Dee JB and Welcome Back. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/biggthumpup.gif


George. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/Peace.gif