Pattaya is not what it used to be

[naklua]

Pattaya has been my favourite holiday spot for the past 13 years. Why? Foremost I like the bars, especially the Go Go bars. Also of very much value to me are cheap & good accomodation (rented apartment), mostly excellent & cheap Thai (and sometimes Western) food, ease and low cost of transportation. I am not so much into the beach, more into the nightlife. [This description of my preferences has to be a challange for the usual board trolls...]

Unfortunately the last 5 to 6 years gave me the impression that the boys in Pattaya have become bit by bit less attractive.

In my opinion this quality drift still goes on and thus it has become more and more difficult for me to find bar boys who are handsome to my (!) eyes. Of course beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder, but I think my taste is not too exotic but maybe I can be called demanding (in regard to a boy's looks, not so much to what he is willing to do...). I dont like ladyboys and too feminine looking boys. Much to my regret these types of Thais have become more and more dominant in most of the bars. Some of the forum members might see things differently and I have to admit I did not do any statistics (it's my vacation after all...). Furthermore I have become more and more sophisticated in filtering out the boys who are not up to my "standards". In the (more distant) past I sometimes offed boys who I would never off nowadays. Back then the (to my Western eyes) exotic looks of Thai boys to some extent "blinded" me and kind of distracted me to take a more closer look.

To make a long story short: Nowadays most of the bars in Boystown, Sunee or Day Night area have not a single boy on their payroll who I was tempted to off. There is only a handful of bars that occasionally cater to my tastes. In the more recent past this has especially been true (in this order) for Cartier Boys (of Soi Buakhao), A-Bomb, Happy Boys, Vassa. A little bit more in the past Crazy Dragon was on top of my list but unfortunately they have gone very much downhill for the last 12 to 18 months; also the number of boys working there has decreased significantly. Gentlemen, in Boystown, was also a venue I liked to visit maybe 2+ years ago; back then they were always offering one or two boys who were not ladies in disguise; one of my favourites there went on to Crystal Boys maybe 12 to 18 months ago (this should also be an indication for You that he really wasnt one of the ladyboys) and another one was snapped up by and old but ostensibly very rich Farang maybe 3 years ago - he has still got stunning looks but he does not look too happy when I sometimes see him together with his sugar daddy...

The Americanized Go Go bars in Boystown, i.e. BBB and Splash/Throb, are totally unintersting for me. In BBB it's a mix of Godzillas, boys past their Go-Go-expiration date and disinterested boys looking for stupid Farangs to rip-off. The recent revamp of the bar did not help.
Toy Boys was home to a bunch of cute boys back in the 1990ies. The Taiwanese owner seems to have lost his sense for doing good business (and picking good looking boys is the esential part for the Boys Go Go business) a few years ago.
Moonlight on 2nd road was one of Boystown's highlights back then - sadly it has been history for quite a long time already. Nova Boys (across the road from Dreamboys and a few steps to 2nd road's direction), too, was a nice place to visit. Unfortunately it did not last long. Dreamboys offered a good selection of good looking boys back in the late 1990ies and maybe up to 2001 or 2002. I think it has got something to do with the Thai manager going out of business (some said he died) and leaving the bar to much less tasteful successors.
Many Boys on 2nd road near South Pattaya Road had many very handsome boys until the closed sometime back in 1997 or 1998.
Today the number of boys Go Gos is significantly higher than about 7 or 8 years ago, but the opposite is true for the number of (to my eyes) handsome boys, although the overall number of (lady)boys in the business surely has gone up.

In Sunee Plaza the original Kaos (across the road from the new Don Plaza) was nice to visit, around the same time or a little bit later K-Boys featured handsome guys (not like today's "ladyboys only").

The bottom line is, that during 3 - 4 weeks vacation I am increasingly less able to find 5 - 10 really handsome boys. I dont think that has too much to do with the time of the year, as I normally go on vacation two times a year (mostly Feb/Mar and Aug/Sept) with one time during the high (but not the peak) season and there has been no real difference in the selection of boys.

Thus I am contemplating other places in Thailand under these restrictions: Phuket is more or less out of question; I was there about two years ago and everything was very expensive compared to Pattaya and the selection of boys was also rather limited (Patong). I was in Chiang Mai a few times around the millenium; I have ambivalent memories about this place: A few nice boys, but not really top ones. The cost of accomodation and food was OK in my opinion, but transport was difficult and sometimes rather expensive (still more or less nothing compared to the rip-offs on the roads of Patpong or Chawaeng in Ko Samui). I liked Adam's Apple but have learned that the place closed some time ago. The bars were rather sleepy and not big in numbers; I did not like the beer bars in the night market.
That leaves less touristy spots; I have heard there are bars in Udon Thani and Korat, but I am sure no of the Go Go type. But one has to broaden one's horizon and thus I am open to meet boys in other places.

Suggestions anyone? I am very interested in forum members' experiences (boys-wise...) in off the track places. Furthermore I would like to know if others who think to share my taste in boys see things regarding the "development" of the Pattaya boys very much differently from myself.
As my above post only gives some hints I try to be a little bit more specific regarding my boy-taste: boy next door type, 18 - 22 [this is not a hard limit] years old, no ladyboys, no Godzilla-like hunks or boys with legs like Snooker-table-legs, handsome face (!), no visible fat around the waist - six-pack prefered. Nice personality is a plus, but as long as we can get along together for the night it would be sufficient.

For me as a relative newcomer this was a very interesting post and I am interested in members responses.
Can I make one suggestion? Separate your post into paragraphs, I (and I'm sure others) find it difficult to read large amounts of text which seems all crammed together.

[Jetsam]

I have to agree to most of what you say, I'm in Pattaya 5 days from now and hope to find some good looking real next door guy types (not feminized of pimped hair guys) .
I think the real lookers can be found in the Philippines , but I not go there because It seem to be an ahumm not very safe country.

[llz]

Naklua I think we like more or less the same kind of boys (for example I almost never set a foot in any of the Boyztown bars), and like you I am rather picky in the looks department - I would add that I am very susceptible to the boy's personality, never take a boy who speaks english, never take a tattooed boy, and never take a spiky-haired boy.
Despite all these requirements, I cannot say I noticed any decline in the quality of boys like what you describe - even if I must say that I staid very quiet from 2003 to 2006 because of a too possessive (but how nice) boyfriend .
Being a once or twice a year tourist, I had no problems meeting more pleasing boys than I could deal with, even if I agree with you that some bars have absolutely no guy who would find favour with me.
I think that you have to go to as many places as possible and not stay sticked only in one place ; did you try the bars in Saphan Kwai in Bangkok ? Are you sure that Phuket is so bad (and has some cheap accomodation too) ? Did you take the time to explore what Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai have to offer ? Do you know that the karaoke places, the message shops -and the streets - are generally full of boys like the one we cherish ?

[thaiworthy-old]

For the most part I agree with llz, but what's wrong with offing a boy who speaks English? I would think that's a plus. And spiky hair?

I have been cumming here for a month every year and will be there in march.Ilike my boys cute 18 and the ones that act like boys.Ihave never been to a bar where i could not find a boy i would ravish.I must be to easy to please.

[llz]

For the most part I agree with llz, but what's wrong with offing a boy who speaks English?
There is a chance that boys who don't speak good english are newer to the scene, so probably less spoilt. Moreover, as english and thai are both foreign languages for me, I egoistically prefer practising my thai.

[thaiworthy-old]

For the most part I agree with llz, but what's wrong with offing a boy who speaks English?
There is a chance that boys who don't speak good english are newer to the scene, so probably less spoilt. Moreover, as english and thai are both foreign languages for me, I egoistically prefer practising my thai.

Well, that would explain the behavior of last guy I offed. He spoke enough English. And he was spoiled. Never made that correlation before however, but he was beautiful. I guess I am just a sucker for a pretty face. Pretty hard to find one that fits all the criteria, tho.

BTW, if English is not your native tongue, you sure seem to write it fairly well. Maybe my Thai should be as good as yours. (And maybe my English too!)

[Dodger]

Naklua...

I enjoyed reading your post and have very similar feelings about to "scene" in general.

I've been spending a considerable amount of time with one boy during the past few holidays which is a great contrast from my Butterfly Mania days, although I still frequent the gogo bars in Pattaya with my radar "on." I started noticing the decline you mentioned about 2 or 3 years ago, and frankly, just chalked this up to my perception being skewed as a result of over saturation, although I've gone on to believe it's just a reality of the times.

I remember being able to walk into almost any gogo bar and spot at least one "shining star", but these days I'm lucky to spot one in the whole town. There also seemed to be a broader range of boys coming from Chaing Mai, Chiang Rai, Udorn Thani, etc., although now my guess is that about 95% of the working boys have their roosts back in Isaan. Not meaning there aren't great looking boys from Isaan (especially if my BF is reading this), but there's definitely been a change, and a declining one.

I can tell you that I've always appreciated the opportunities to escape the confines of "The Extreme City" to explore the unspoiled beauty of some of the more rural parts of Thailand. And when I refer to "unspoiled beauty", I'm talking strictly about the boys, as I have no great fondness for flower beds, monuments or mountains when I'm on holiday. If you haven't ventured up to the Northern provinces I can highly recommend it. The boys in Chaing Rai have my vote for being the best looking boys anywhere on the planet, with the exception of my Isaan boyfriend of course who's the most beautiful of all...LOL. Chiang Mai is followed closely be Chian Mai where they breed living angels. You may want to give them both a try.

When you're traveling up North there's two "hot spots" I'll share with you. First, any waterfall that's within a 20 minute motorbike ride from the center of town, especially during the weekends, and secondly, a disco in any one of the larger towns which has at least one university. The town of Uttaradit (North-Central LOS) has a large university and one disco which is attached to one of the nicer hotels (name?). Just walk into the disco alone on a Friday or Saturday night, and you won't be alone for long. The fem types (as well as a few ladyboys) usually hang out in the same corner, and the gay boys seem to be scattered in and amongst the str8 crowd. As you well know, Thai boys (OK, I guess girls too) have that unique ability to read a persons eyes in a flash - and will know exactly what you're looking for.

Those hidden waterfalls are my favorite places for boy searching. I recommend avoiding the major waterfalls which attract the tourists, and head to one of the smaller and more secluded ones. I always find it helpful to just ask someone in the neighboring village, versus relying on those glossy travel brochures. Better yet, ask one of the boys you see wandering around the market for advise. My last trip to one of these little paradises was actually in Isaan down close to the Cambodian border. The town is called Khun Han and the waterfalls are breath taking. My BF took me to the perfect spot right off the bat. There were about 12-14 boys swimming naked right at the base of this one smaller waterfall. I ripped my camera out of its case faster than Wyatt Earp at the OK Corral, and stared clicking the shutter at everything that moved. The boys ages ranged from 10-20 and were obviously all close friends, if not direct family members. There were at least 6 of those "shining stars" I referred to earlier, and one, who simply took my breath away. I can still feel the impression of my BF's elbow in my ribs as I speak. I went back to Khun Han alone several times during that last trip and never had a hard time finding someone to help me carry my camera gear. I'll just leave it at that.

I guess the good news is...the "angels" are still there. They're just not being found as easily.


Mai pen rai

Neither do I believe is anywhere else like it used to be. That is most certainly true with some of the places among my favourite destinations around the globe, as I am sure it is with others here too. I wouldn't dream of arguing with you for a second regarding your statement about Pattaya having changed in the 13 years that you have been visiting. However, strangely enough, apart from the considerable way it has grown in size, I feel that it has hardly changed in many other ways at all.

I know the changes I have experienced here, are far less in comparison to other places that were on my list of favourite places to visit. There are some great things about Pattaya, as well as some fucking awful ones as well, but your comments with regard to finding it hard to find suitable boys that appeal to your taste, really does surprise me.

Is there a possibility that after visiting here for so long, the problem doesn't lye with the boys you seek and the shortage of their availability, but lye with you instead owing to the fact, that you may well have become blase and disenchanted about everything here, including the boys.

Like Ilz, I don't believe there has been a decline in the quality of boys available here and I include boys to suit all tastes. Perhaps you should take a few vacations elsewhere and have a break from the place, if you feel as you do. It seems to have worked for some that I know that felt similar to you do, who by not visiting for a while, found that when they returned, not only was their old zest for the place renewed, but after visiting other places, they appreciated what Pattaya and Thailand had to offer, a lot more than they had previously done.

Nothing is ever going to be like the first time and if tomorrow you were to come across the best looking boy God that you have ever seen, I don't think you will find if you stayed with them for ten years, that there will ever be a fuck you have with them, that is as great and as memorable as the first one. Sorry if that sounds a little crude, http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/smile_blush.gif but although I am sure others will disagree with me, it is something I firmly believe to be true. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/Wink.gif

There may be other good fucks along the way, but none as I have said will in my opinion, ever compare with the first. The boys here are are very similar to crack cocaine, after sampling them for the first time, you are forever chasing the high of that first hit, which no matter how many times you do it afterward, you are never able to even get close to the experience and feeling you got that first time.

Hence the merry go round of the addict syndrome, as the junkie's quest, is to continue trying to seek and obtain once again, something that will always be unobtainable to them. Perhaps you may have become a go go boy junkie. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/eek.gif Only you know whether or not there is a possibility of this being true.

All of the posts in this thread are of interest to me in regard to the similarity of the boys, that all of the posters claim to appeal to them. The tastes for these type of boys are, by a strange coincidence, the same tastes as my own. Who would ever have believed it? http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/biglaugh.gif

As most of the pictures that are normally posted here, are of boys that look in my opinion as though they are deformed, owing to the grotesque muscles which they possess, it would be both interesting as well as a refreshing change, to see some pictures of boys that you guys may well make; especially going by the comments you have made n your posts.

So with that said, it only remains for me to say to you: Come on guys, let's go for it and see what you are capable of coming up with. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/TongueWag.gif


Chok Dee,


G. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/Peace.gif

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

stay permanently sozzled and you never notice anything change..everyone looks good as well. :clown:

The Americanized Go Go bars in Boystown, i.e. BBB and Splash/Throb, are totally unintersting for me. In BBB it's a mix of Godzillas, boys past their Go-Go-expiration date and disinterested boys looking for stupid Farangs to rip-off. The recent revamp of the bar did not help.

AMERICANIZED? Other than Richard at Amor, I don't believe there are *ANY* American owners in Boyztown. I don't really see what is "Americanized" about Throb/Splash!!??

(TR) The Rose :idea:

Pattaya is not what it used to be - Its better!

AMERICANIZED? Other than Richard at Amor, I don't believe there are *ANY* American owners in Boyztown.
(TR) The Rose :idea:

I don't know Richard personally but I've heard or read that he's Canadian, not American. The few times I dined at Amor, he seemed a bit strange, which inclines me to believe that indeed he's Canadian. Notwithstanding, he serves an out-of-this-world seafood souffle, in and of itself worth the visit to Amor - honestly, one of the best entrees I've experienced in Thailand (and I'm very objective, and critical, when it comes to food - less so, when it comes to Thailand's other delights....)

Pattaya is not what it used to be

Nor was it ever.

How very true Rainwalker. It's amazing how people, after lapses of time, develop a memory of what they believed somewhere to have once been like at a time in the past, This memory becomes after a period of time, no more, than just an illusion they have formed in their minds and eventually becomes as you have said, nothing remotely like they believed it to have been like.


George.

I disagree, George, with you and Rainwalker--naklua was not talking about a fantasy or an illusion of the past, he was talking about the type of boys/young men that now seem dominent in most pattaya bars---this topic has come up before on this board and others--whether it is true to the degree he talks about or what I think, may be debated, but it is no illusion that there is a great deal more ladyboy/fem boy types in the bars. Toyboys in years past, used to be populated by quite masculine, handsome lads, same for several other bars, they had a small number of the fem/ladyboy type, but in recent years it has been mainly the fem types in that bar. That's great for those who prefer that type of lad--and certainly Sunee does not have the reputation nor stock of lads that he desires--so many of those bars had a few lads of legal age and masculine type--Krazy used to have the most with Topman having a few, but even those bars have been hard put to find very many--most mamasans I have known for many years will admit that most bars are struggling with finding attractive lads, fem or not. In many of the bars I have visited in recent months with friends who like the cuter/prettier lads, a bit on the soft or fem side, even have complained that while the bars have lots of fem/nellie lads, not necessarily ladyboys, the boys are just not that cute or attractive--bad bodies, bad skin, bad teeth, bad hair, etc.

I also don't think that naklua wanted lads with big, grotesque muscles like some in Crystal Boys, etc, but legal aged, handsome young men with lean, well-built bodies, if they have hair on the legs, it is not a scarey thing as that is what young men have, and they don't wear lipstick and eyeliner, and they don't, while trying to attract customers on stage, prance around or shriek like a young girl. Also, it is nice to have a few lads like this that are not so damn small, even if of legal age--in this day and age with the Thai police not unwilling to make an example of a farang, it is not comfortable walking anywhere with a lad that looks like he is half your size.

Also, the other things about Pattaya that have changed--the police tactics, the traffic, the ripoffs, etc--not illusion, but reality as Pattaya has grown--I certainly realize that those things come with any city that grows with little or no regulation, but it still had made Pattaya not as enjoyable a place to be as it used to be. For some who have just been coming to Pattaya in recent years, easy to say, well, it is much better today, or for those who love the nellies, understandably, you now have a much greater selection from which to choose.

[TrongpaiExpat]

[quote="A Rose By Any Other Name":vn2fvakf]AMERICANIZED? Other than Richard at Amor, I don't believe there are *ANY* American owners in Boyztown.
(TR) The Rose :idea:

I don't know Richard personally but I've heard or read that he's Canadian, not American. The few times I dined at Amor, he seemed a bit strange, which inclines me to believe that indeed he's Canadian. Notwithstanding, he serves an out-of-this-world seafood souffle, in and of itself worth the visit to Amor - honestly, one of the best entrees I've experienced in Thailand (and I'm very objective, and critical, when it comes to food - less so, when it comes to Thailand's other delights....)[/quote:vn2fvakf]

I take it when you Brits say something is "Americanized" it's not a good thing?

If anything Pattaya seem Russianized, Germanized and all those blond blue eyed something Scandinaviaized.

I take it when you Brits say something is "Americanized" it's not a good thing?

Not necessarily TrongpaiExpat, that would depend as to whom the person or the place is, that is the subject of the terminology. I am sure that people realise that there are some American people, as well as Americanised places, that are quite nice. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/whistle.gif

As to how many, I am not quite sure, but I am certain that if you look hard enough, you will find some. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/biglaugh.gif


Choc Dee TrongpaiExpat,



G. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/Peace.gif

[naklua]

Hi llz!
The English speaking issue has not been of much importance to me, as in Pattaya very few boys who I took a interest in did speak anything more than a few very basic words of English. But I agree with you that a good command of English by a Thai boy can ring my alarm bells; ad hoc I can remember one boy in one of the small Chiang Mai bars who spoke near excellent English (for Thai standards at least) and told me he was a university student which I think was not a lie. Also he was a bit on the older side, maybe 25+ (I think he told me his age, but firstly I cannot remember and secondly it maybe was not the truth at all). He was rather eager to join me, but I did not off him, not only because he was not 100% my type (maybe 80%) but also because I thought his good English skills would firstly make him more able to negotiate a higher price and secondly maybe he would be expect more as a near-HiSo-boy.
Although I am not really into tattoos, if a boy of my taste has got one it will not be an obstacle for an off.
Spiky hair is rather common for the more ladyboy-like guys, who are not my cup of tea. Nevertheless if the boy is not on the fem side, spiky hair does also not rule out an off.
Saphan Kwai: Been there, done that. Was very nice back in the mid to late 1990ies, when I first went there. I was lucky enough to visit the near legendary Midnight Cowboy once or twice before it closed for good (owner died). A little bit later Apache boy, owned by a very nice Scotish guy open next to (or even in) the premises of the then defunct Midnight cowboy. The bar was rather seedy but always had a very good selection of extraordinarily handsome and also very nice boys; many of them featured six-packs as the had some sort of mini-gym in the back of the bar next to the toilet. Unfortunately this bar is no more. During the last years Saphan Kwai has become boring to me тАУ only one Go Go bar left, besides this last one only host bars. I am not into host bars as it is difficult to measure the boysтАЩ looks (fully clothed) and the atmosphere of two groups of people (customers vs boys) seated opposite to each other and staring at each other is not what I would call comfortable. Most times the boys look bored (maybe like myself when I go there...) and watch TV тАУ that comes with the тАЮadvantageтАЬ that not at all times all of the boys stare at you...
Phuket: I stayed there once, was not impressed (only one good looking boy in 4 nights and he was a тАЮ100% poochaiтАЬ, but nevertheless very nice).
Chiang Mai: Been there several times; AdamтАЩs Apple was nice, but has been closed for some time now. Maybe I will give it another try in the future.

Chiang Rai? Anything intersting there regarding boys? I would like to learn more about this location.

In Pattaya I went to some of the Karaoke bars and Thai discos in the soi day night area during my last two or three holidays. Like in the host bars, it is difficult for me to judge the fully clothed boys in the very dim lightning; nevertheless last time I offed one very nice boy from Sundance Karaoke (next to the now defunct LekтАЩs Boys).
There has been a new trend around in the Pattaya gay scene for maybe about two years: Thai gay discos with coyote dancing. First (to my knowledge) was Maya in walking street (closed already), later on X-Ray (near Big-C), Body Language (near Sunee Plaza) and some others. Especially Maya featured some very, very hot coyote dancers back in 2006, but the were rather aloof. Of course they drank with customers when offered drinks + money, but most of them (the best looking ones) almost always went back to dancing after a very short time (no, not this kind of short time) sitting with the customer. I heard the rumour that they charged 1000 Baht for the off; this would not have discouraged me but I got the impression that the boys are not too eager to be offed, because the could make more than enough money by just dancing and drinking with the customers and picking up (many times rather generous) tips from the customers.

As a first timer, I recently found BKK & Pattaya to be like paradise.

A good choice of guys, with fine bodies & often clothed in lovely white trunks on stage.

Compared with Europe, all seem very willing to please, spend several hours with the client and in some cases they even convincingly appear delighted to be with the client.

In most of the bars, the supply/demand relationship seemed to be well in favour of the customer.
Some of the bars have such choice, I figure most customers should get what they want.

If it was better several years ago, what have I been missing?

I too stayed in Pattaya for the first time thirteen years ago and never shall I experience- nor expect to experience- the excitement of the first few holidays there. This is why I tend towards the view that it is our jaded perceptions that change, not the reality. I have to admit, however, that there are more ladyboys around today (possibly for sociological reasons) but then there are probably five times the number of gay venues than there were in the 90s.
However, one thing I learned early on was that the cutest guys didn't necessarily provide the best experience for an "off". I often found a stunning guy who was so popular and successful that he was able to restrict himself to going through the motions while others, perhaps not quite as handsome, were more eager to please.
I soon decided that it was best, if possible, to pay more attention to personality, choosing perhaps the guys who weren't in the "Top Three" among the dancers. This is why I preferred the bars where there was interaction and humour among the dancers rather than the Bangkok- style of standing motionless, gloomily staring at the audience, occasionally deigning to shift from one foot to the other.
I also decided that some English, however rudimentary, was a definite plus.

[naklua]

Is there a possibility that after visiting here for so long, the problem doesn't lye with the boys you seek and the shortage of their availability, but lye with you instead owing to the fact, that you may well have become blase and disenchanted about everything here, including the boys.

This insinuation is maybe a little bit too harsh, but as I hinted in my original post, I have become more picky during the last years. Thus there might be two effects at work coming from different angles and myself in the middle: A more picky me and a real shortage of attractive boys.


Perhaps you should take a few vacations elsewhere and have a break from the place, if you feel as you do. It seems to have worked for some that I know that felt similar to you do, who by not visiting for a while, found that when they returned, not only was their old zest for the place renewed, but after visiting other places, they appreciated what Pattaya and Thailand had to offer, a lot more than they had previously done.

No other place comes to my mind offering so much regarding boys as Thailand in general and especially Pattaya does. Maybe I have to clear a misunderstanding: it is not that I want to leave Thailand for good (I am not a expat, just a frequent vacationer) but I kind of miss the old times. Maybe I am seeing things through rose-coloured glasses when looking back in the past, but a few years ago I was repeatedly able to stay for 2 - 3 months in a row and cant remember to have experienced a handsome boy shortage (to such a degree as today). Nowadays I am more busy at work and thus can call myself lucky if I can have a 4-week-vacation. Even so it is much more difficult (and sometimes outright frustrating) to find the "shining stars" (as Dodger put it).


Nothing is ever going to be like the first time

You are so right! My very first holiday in Thailand was like a dream come true.


There may be other good fucks along the way, but none as I have said will in my opinion, ever compare with the first.

For myself I cant agree to this one - my first "bf" was not that good looking, but a (at first, at least) nice personality. Nevertheless I meet numerous boys afterwards who were much more handsome and more satisfactory. But by then I have become spoilt already...


Perhaps you may have become a go go boy junkie.

Sort of...


As most of the pictures that are normally posted here, are of boys that look in my opinion as though they are deformed, owing to the grotesque muscles which they possess, it would be both interesting as well as a refreshing change, to see some pictures of boys that you guys may well make

Many of the boys featured at Island Caprice Video (http://www.icsvideo.com) are up to my taste. Most of the times a handsome lad is teamed up with a rather feminine looking boy, sometimes with an outright ladyboy. Would be nicer to always have a boy-boy-duo, but I think the producer has got a hard time to find that many good looking guys willing to do it in front of the camera...

I certainly agree with those who say the excitement and "newness" of eveything on a first trip or two is not going to be duplicated on later trips, nor, perhaps, are the first sexual experiences--actually, I enjoy the experiences I have now better than of those first ones well over 20 years ago. Back then, I was a rookie and had not really defined my tastes and took pretty much whatever came my way and often let the lad "take the lead", and I spoke no Thai whatsover. Now, over many years, I am very clear on what I am looking for, make clear to the lad, politely and in Thai, what I am looking for in the bar before just offing someone and taking them back to the condo and then act surprised that the lad is not interested in what I am interested in.

I have written of Midnight Cowboy as well and enjoyed that place very much. The early days of A-Bomb and BBB and Toyboys in Pattaya were wonderful places for my kind of lad as well. But, otherwise to think that those who believe that Pattaya hasn't changed are jaded views, then you must have had your head in the sand. And as I have said in a previous post, certainly some of the changes are just a part of a poorly-run and planned growing sex resort trying to be all things to all people, but take a look at all the Chinese tourists, the Eastern European trash that runs thru the city now and the crime and tell me that Pattaya is the same safe city it used to be. Yes, in the old days, whether wearing any jewelry or carrying any amount of money, you could go anywhere at any time of the night and not worry about having a chain ripped from your neck, or being attacked by gangs of youths--even if you did not know friends who has had this happen to them, all you have to do is read any of the local English newspapers, the Pattaya Mail, the Pattaya People, or Pattaya Today.

[naklua]

The Americanized Go Go bars in Boystown, i.e. BBB and Splash/Throb, are totally unintersting for me. In BBB it's a mix of Godzillas, boys past their Go-Go-expiration date and disinterested boys looking for stupid Farangs to rip-off. The recent revamp of the bar did not help.

AMERICANIZED? Other than Richard at Amor, I don't believe there are *ANY* American owners in Boyztown. I don't really see what is "Americanized" about Throb/Splash!!??

(TR) The Rose :idea:

Maybe this term is not the best choice to describe what I wanted to. Westernized, however, would maybe also not be accurate, as the meaning is so broad. What I wanted to say is, that BBB and Throb/Splash are clean to sterile/cold (not only the interior, but also the boys are more aloof, although they are on the less handsome side), lacking the easy-going/un-professional atmosphere of most of the other Thai gogo bars (if other bars feature more pushy mamasans this adds to their un-professionalism; I dont listen to them anyway) and are offering mostly rather husky/hunky guys like most of the U.S. gay porns do (I finally found a connection to the U.S...).

Naklua, I used to enjoy very much spending time in BBB as they often had the kind of lads it seems you and I and some others enjoy, but lately, as you stated in an earlier post, they now have their share of fems/ladyboys (I think that is so as I have said, there is much greater difficulty in finding regular, attractive, non-fem, lads to work the bars) and I think I know what you mean by the "godzilla" types--they have some very large, rather unattractive, musclebound sort of lads, a number of which are well past their "sell by" date. But, BBB was always well-run, clean, and I never had to fear about offing underage boys there.

Crystal Boys, WW West have a few that I think may be to your liking--A-Bomb in past months had some but lately seems to have gone downhill. In Bkk, there are quite a few bars that will have some that meet your likes.

[naklua]

I also don't think that naklua wanted lads with big, grotesque muscles like some in Crystal Boys, etc,

You are perfectly right, these are the boys I referred to as "Godzillas" in my original post...


but legal aged, handsome young men with lean, well-built bodies, if they have hair on the legs, it is not a scarey thing as that is what young men have, and they don't wear lipstick and eyeliner, and they don't, while trying to attract customers on stage, prance around or shriek like a young girl.

As a long as it is not too much hair, it is okay (on the legs only!).
As a matter of fact it is their face that is most important to me. Nice face and not so nice body is quite rare. On the other hand, a well-built body with a so-so or even ugly face has crossed my road many times already.


Also, it is nice to have a few lads like this that are not so damn small, even if of legal age--in this day and age with the Thai police not unwilling to make an example of a farang, it is not comfortable walking anywhere with a lad that looks like he is half your size.

The Thai guys' size is a big plus to me. I like the guys in the range below 1.80m. I dont give too much about other people thinking something bad when I walk with guys who are rather short to Western eyes, as many Thais of legal age are just not as tall as their Western brothers. It is this Western thinking "small = underage". This is a sort of racism, as the boys are small according to Western standards and look younger than they are to (un-trained) Western eyes only. This Western idiocy/supremacy thinking is emphasized by Farangland laws allegedly in place to fight kiddie porn and sexual abuse of children by punishing production, publication or ownership of sexually arousing (this is less than sexually explicit) pictures/videos of persons who look younger than 18 years regardless of their real age. Who is there to be protected by such a law if the person(s) in question is/are of legal age? The rather brain-fucked justification that some people may be encouraged by such pictures to abuse real children is absurd at least.
This is not a hoax: I recently heard of a law planned in Germany to even forbid certain sexual encounters between under-aged persons, if there is some sort of valuable consideration involved, e.g. a boy treating his girl friend to the theater in the hope for something sexual in return afterwards. The overzealous politically correct do-gooders are considering this as child prostitution and call for punishment of the boy (even if the boy in the above example was younger than the girl)...

I have gotten off the track... I wanted simply to make my point, that I am not looking only for boys as tall as the US/European guys.[/i]

I do understand not caring what others might think, but today in Pattaya one cannot be too careful. If you have followed any of the more recent stories in the newspapers some of the farang who have been arrested were reported by neighbors or others who saw them with what they thought to be underage boys--hotels, local Thais have been encouraged to report to the police any suspicions of chld sex tourism, etc--so, while the lad one is with may not be underage, today if you even create the suspicion of being with younger, underage lads, you could invite the visit of the police, especially, if you are staying in a condo where the condo security or neighbors could report a "suspicion" or at a hotel that does not check a boy's ID card. I would agree that it is unlikely, but it has happened a fair number of times, and with the Thai police (ask a few of the other regular posters here if you think the Thai police are above acting unethically or illegally) even if the Thai lad you have is just of legal age, the police may tell him to say he is not, or has a fake/copied ID card and then ask you for some money to excuse the "mistake". There are also undercover/plain clothes police that might see you leaving an area with a smaller lad and follow you and ask for some payment, it won't matter if the lad is of legal age, whom do you think the Thai lad or Thai hotel or condo security is going to agree with or support--the farang or the Thai police?

For some farang who are smaller themselves, the contrast may go unnoticed, but I have friends who are rather tall, and seeing them on the street with a lad of 18 or more often looks rather unusual, and any kind of visit or act that will bring you under the purview of the local police should be avoided. It could be one night or one off that could ruin one's life. Many have posted correctly that for Thais when they say they are 18, they are most often actually 17, legally, but talk of entering their 18th year--the police will not care that you did not understand this.

[Shuee]

with out going too deep in to this, i would say one thing for sure, that nowadays its far more of a 'cum n go' attitude where the service is poor

what you think............................................. .......................>

[naklua]

I do understand not caring what others might think, but today in Pattaya one cannot be too careful. If you have followed any of the more recent stories in the newspapers some of the farang who have been arrested were reported by neighbors or others who saw them with what they thought to be underage boys--hotels, local Thais have been encouraged to report to the police any suspicions of chld sex tourism, etc--so, while the lad one is with may not be underage, today if you even create the suspicion of being with younger, underage lads, you could invite the visit of the police, especially, if you are staying in a condo where the condo security or neighbors could report a "suspicion" or at a hotel that does not check a boy's ID card. I would agree that it is unlikely, but it has happened a fair number of times, and with the Thai police (ask a few of the other regular posters here if you think the Thai police are above acting unethically or illegally) even if the Thai lad you have is just of legal age, the police may tell him to say he is not, or has a fake/copied ID card and then ask you for some money to excuse the "mistake".

If I spent to much time thinking about the possibility of the Royal Thai Police trying to frame me with calling a legal-age boy under-age, I would better avoid Pattaya/Thailand at all. Of course such a scenario is not impossible in Amazing Thailand but in my opinion it is very, very unlikely. Although the Royal Thai Police is on average an unethical, corrupt and heartless bunch, they are also on average not that stupid to try to extort money in such a difficult and rather risky way (risky not meaning that they have to fear any punishment , but risky in the sense that the risk of not being paid is rather high compared to blackmailing somebody who they caught in the company of a real under-age lad).
Furthermore there are so many horror stories on the Royal Thai Police out there, that one should avoid Thailand at all cost if one [i]really fears of becoming victimized by them.


There are also undercover/plain clothes police that might see you leaving an area with a smaller lad and follow you and ask for some payment, it won't matter if the lad is of legal age, whom do you think the Thai lad or Thai hotel or condo security is going to agree with or support--the farang or the Thai police?

I think as far as the undercover did not threaten me with real force (like a robber) and I was absolutely sure that the lad was of legal age, I would not pay. Of course it would not be a nice experience, nevertheless.


For some farang who are smaller themselves, the contrast may go unnoticed, but I have friends who are rather tall, and seeing them on the street with a lad of 18 or more often looks rather unusual, and any kind of visit or act that will bring you under the purview of the local police should be avoided. It could be one night or one off that could ruin one's life. Many have posted correctly that for Thais when they say they are 18, they are most often actually 17, legally, but talk of entering their 18th year--the police will not care that you did not understand this.

The point here is not to trust in the boy's statement about his age but to check the ID yourself. Take a close look at the picture on the ID card, if it is really your guy's face as the boys often share their ID cards (sometimes encouraged or even done by the mamasan). Furthermore the ID card might have been tempered with (I experienced this once, but it was made in a very amateurish manner). The modern ID cards are much more difficult to forge as their security features are more sophisticated than in the past.
If one argued that you can never be 100% sure about the authenticity of the ID card I would have to agree. But checking the ID carefully and also using one's common sense should bring the level of certainty very near to 100%.

While I agree that be caught or entrapped by the police for something you did not do is unlikely, it is not as improbable as some like to think--I do not suggest avoiding Thailand, I suggest being more careful today than ever before. There have been many posters here and on other boards who have discussed problems with the police for things they supposedly did not do. There has also been quite a bit of discussion in 2007 and this board about scams in Sunee involving farang/underage boys/police/fake police?? You think the police care if it is a hassle for them or that they might be afraid--ask kquill and others who have been such victims--even after he exposed and had all the evidence he discussed here, he has mentioned that the police behind his frame are still all right there,, still working as before, even after a top police general or someone like that said Kquill had been set up!

Just in recent months there have been several stories written in local English newspapers of farang with underage boys, even though, they swore they thought the lads were of legal age--in one of the stories, it was neighbors who had reported their suspicions to the police--not only did the police follow and watch this farang, they later then caught him with a 17 old and found tons of pictures on his computer and in albums that he had collected of other lads he had taken.

So, you certainly proceed as you wish, and note again, I did not say that one should become paranoid, but even more careful than before. Even if you think you are innocent and were being blackmailed and are ultimately exonnerated, what happens to your life/job/family with all the press and the notice to your embassy that you have been arrested--now labeled as a sex tourist in all the databanks forever. By the way, you kept calling them the Royal Thai Police, as if somehow calling them by their official name, makes them more noble or that they are not that "stupid" or do not have the time to hassle or blackmail innocent farangs for fear of being moved to an inactive post--hardly--a farang in a trap is a much better payday for them and their immediate superiors than all the money got in stopping motorbike riders without helmets. And while there may well be some intelligent police, there certainly is no IQ test given to police applicants--connections and cash got them their positions.

[Smiles]

" ... I don't know Richard personally but I've heard or read that he's Canadian, not American. The few times I dined at Amor, he seemed a bit strange, which inclines me to believe that indeed he's Canadian. ... "
:cheers: I've been arguing that this is quite true for a long time. But, This Place seems to insist that Canadians are 'dull'.
Glad to read a note intimating a certain strangeness observed among we northerners. Most heartening . . . my old man has been saying the same thing for years.

Cheers ...

[naklua]

By the way, you kept calling them the Royal Thai Police, as if somehow calling them by their official name, makes them more noble or that they are not that "stupid"

If called them by their official name as this is kind of proof to me, that maybe not all is so perfect about the Thai monarchy as long as the corrupt/greedy/brutal/cowardly killing innocents/fraudulent police can still use the term "Royal" without anything of real significance having been done on part of royalty to stop their constant and systematic wrongdoings againt the Thai people and the foreign community & tourists. I have never heard about any real intention of the old elite (I am not referring to Thaksin and his cronies by this term, but to the real old elite) to strip the police of the "Royal" part because of their long history of criminal misconduct.

Naklua, I see what you mean about the ROYAL part of the Thai Police, but they just use it as sort of a shield, it appears. I don't think that even the King, in any real sense, takes on the either the police or the military, they are too much a basis for his power also. A very good Thai friend, a lad that actually got out of the bar work, and made a bit of a life for himself, when I asked one time, many years ago, about what he felt about the King, he answered very quickly, and bluntly in his broken English, "What King do for me??"

That's why, even though it has been clear that the King did not like Thaksin and his cronies, and supported the coup, etc, it has been written about in Thai newspapers (and the Bkk Post, etc) that the strongest area of support for Thaksin and the new party has been in the Issan region, the poorest region of the country. EVen though, it was a clear attempt at vote buying and Thaksin over his tenure at PM ran some very popular programs, which were rife with corruption,unfortunately, in this region. But the people appeared to believe and feel that at last someone cared for them. I have several good Thai friends in the Kon Kaen and Kalasin areas and they all loved Thaksin and voted for the new party. I tried in the past, several times, to talk with them about how corrupt Thaksin was and how much he and his family stole, etc, but they did not care--he had the free water buffalo program, the 30 baht medical program, etc.

[naklua]

Naklua, I see what you mean about the ROYAL part of the Thai Police, but they just use it as sort of a shield, it appears. I don't think that even the King, in any real sense, takes on the either the police or the military, they are too much a basis for his power also.

That's perfectly right, I think. And at the same time that's the problem. How can a "good king" who is allegedly not striving for power build his support on such institutions like the Thai police and the putsch-prone military??? At the same time always talking about his alleged aim of pushing for a better life for the underprivileged part of his people (i.e. the majority). Wasn't somebody holding a speach on double-standards some time ago?


A very good Thai friend, a lad that actually got out of the bar work, and made a bit of a life for himself, when I asked one time, many years ago, about what he felt about the King, he answered very quickly, and bluntly in his broken English, "What King do for me??"

This answer is very uncommon (as I have experienced myself over the years). There is critical thinking involved in the answer and that is not the way most Thai people are educated to think.


That's why, even though it has been clear that the King did not like Thaksin and his cronies, and supported the coup, etc,

Dont talk about this too much in public - it might constitute lese majeste... :bom:

Naklua wrote: Dont talk about this too much in public - it might constitute lese majeste...

Yes, I am very careful about what might be said in public or whom might be listening to any such conversation--however, these same friends in the Issan region seemed, on the phone anyway, very sad for the death of the King's sister.


[/quote]

[krobbie]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about Pattaya ... not what it used to be?

I might as well start posting recipes here since we are getting so far off topic.

Oh and before I forget ... Pattaya not what it used to be? Nothing is what it used to be, least of all ourselves.
Sad as that is, that's the truth of it. Evolve or die (I mean that in a really nice way though). LOL


Cheers
krobbie

{Phuket items moved to a separate thread - jinks}