Check ID - A CAUTIONARY TALE - November 2007

Check ID - A CAUTIONARY TALE - November 2007

Case 1 - In a bar in Sunee plaza, I observed a man have a boy come off stage and sit with him. He asked the boy for his ID and then asked an older farang there how to determine if the boy was legal. The older man pulled out a pocket light and showed the other man that the ID was a fake. The photo was a cut out of the boy which had been slid between the laminated plastic around a copy of some other boyтАЩs ID and was clearly a fake. He sent the boy back to the stage.

Case 2 - Met a boy in a Sunee bar who showed me an ID which had birth year 2531 so appeared OK. After a second look in better light, it was not certain that the photo in the ID was the boyтАЩs own, probably because the photo was from years ago when the ID was issued when at age 15. Next night went back to the bar to try and verify this. Asked the mamasan if he was for sure 18 - she said yes. Asked the boy to show me the ID again and he gave me one with a cut out photo of him slipped between the laminate of a copy of an ID, not the same as he showed me before. Pointed this out to mamasan who to my astonishment pulled another ID for the boy out of her purse, this one not a copy, which was a legitimate ID with the boyтАЩs actual photo. Why did she keep the real ID and leave a copy with the boy? So he would not lose the real ID or so she could loan it to other boys?

Case 3 - sitting in a bar beside a farang and two boys in Sunee. I asked the boys their age and they said they were 18 and 19. The older looking boy said he was 18, born тАЬtwo five three firstтАЭ i.e. 2531 which made him at least 18. The younger looking one said he was 19. A week later I saw the three of them again and the older looking boy let it slip that his birthday was next month. I jokingly asked the younger looking тАЬ19 year oldтАЭ of the two boys for his ID тАЬso I could know what a real ID looked likeтАЭ. His birth year was 2531 so he was at least 18 and probably 19 as he claimed. I then casually asked if I could see the older looking boyтАЩs ID, the one whose birthday was next month. His ID showed a birth year of 2532, so he was 17 years old and would not be 18 until December, a month away. THE FARANG NEARLY HAD A HEART ATTACK!

Question - the IDтАЩs seem to now show birth year in both BE and Western year, i.e. 2531 and 1988. DidnтАЩt they previously only show the BE year? Somebody posted a picture of one this year but I cannot find it.

[Sen Yai]

Question - the IDтАЩs seem to now show birth year in both BE and Western year, i.e. 2531 and 1988. DidnтАЩt they previously only show the BE year? Somebody posted a picture of one this year but I cannot find it.

Yes, Thai ID's used to show only the Buddhist Era date, but now show the date according to the Gregorian calendar too.

We can thank Bob for posting a copy of a current Thai ID card in a thread earlier this year called "I.D. Cards" - check this link below, and also scroll up in that thread to see Smile's link to further info. in the archive.

www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/i-d-cards-t12392.html#117277 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/i-d-cards-t12392.html#117277)

But also note that Thai's traditionally refer to their age as their current year of living. So when they are born, they are in their first year, or already have the age 'one'. So when a boy says he is '18' he means this is his 18th year, but westerns would count this as 17 until he has reached his 18th birthday! Lots of confusion - TIT!

Sen Yai,

Thank you so much for the reply - that's what I was looking for.

kcurterif

So when a boy says he is '18' he means this is his 18th year, but westerns would count this as 17 until he has reached his 18th birthday! Lots of confusion - TIT!

So in view of Sen Yai's explanation above, which without being a smart arse I was well aware of, as I am sure any of the ex pats are that have lived here for any considerable amount of time, here is an honest question, requiring a very honest answer.

If on going into a go go bar and really fancying a boy and I mean, fancying the fuck out of him big time, if you found out he was in his 18Th year, instead of actually being 18, would it stop you from "offing" him?

I am not interested in any of you holier than thou members here, who would have us believe that cocks don't melt in your mouths. Instead as I said above, I require a really honest answer from you, or please don't bother posting. What would be the point? Well let's see who has got the balls to tell the truth and who wants to spread their normal bullshit. From some of the posters here that I have seen walk out of bars with very questionable "18" year olds, I am particularly looking forward to their replies. That is of course, if they make any after this last comment of mine. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/whistle.gif

Don't worry guys, I would never stoop to such a level as naming and shaming you, I would always keep it a secret between the two of us; or should I say the three of us. http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/GeorgeThai/Wink.gif


G.

[alipatt-old]

I would like to be able to say 100% that I would resist the temptation, but as the situation has not yet come up for me and will probably happen in January I hope that I will be able to answer the same in February. Age of consent 16 here but I have never been attracted to anyone of that age.

If on going into a go go bar and really fancying a boy and I mean, fancying the fuck out of him big time, if you found out he was in his 18Th year, instead of actually being 18, would it stop you from "offing" him?In the good old days (Bangkok: 1988) questions of age never arose. You went to a host bar (there was only one go-go bar - Barbeiry) and you took your pick. Questions of age never arose, and frankly I never thought about it. My assumption was that if the boy was working as a host, someone else had already done "the necessary" - whatever that might have been. The whole two-tier age of consent has only come in over the last ten (?) years. The Thai age has always been 15; however the law was changed to say that where prostitution is involved (itself illegal) then the age of consent is 18. The kicker is that same-sex activities are deemed to be prostitution, therefore the age of consent is 18. I don't recall seeing any prosecutions for teenage same-sex activities between Thais - you can assume the law was changed to placate the international do-gooders

George

To answer your question - no matter how strong the attraction, overwhelming though it might be, if he was underage I would walk away. The reason is the catastrophic consequences of 20 years in jail, no matter how remote the chances of it actually happening, a nightmare of living hell that nothing could be worth.

kcurterif

I would like to be able to say 100% that I would resist the temptation, but as the situation has not yet come up for me and will probably happen in January I hope that I will be able to answer the same in February. Age of consent 16 here but I have never been attracted to anyone of that age.

Whilst you have never been attracted to that age before, it doesn't mean that you never will be. However, I have friends that have no interests in boys of that age either and are only interested in going with other men. So while I do not know your age, along with the age group that you are attracted to, the fact that you have never been interested before, makes the chances that not only will you not be tempted, but you will not be interested either.



If on going into a go go bar and really fancying a boy and I mean, fancying the fuck out of him big time, if you found out he was in his 18Th year, instead of actually being 18, would it stop you from "offing" him?In the good old days (Bangkok: 1988) questions of age never arose. You went to a host bar (there was only one go-go bar - Barbeiry) and you took your pick. Questions of age never arose, and frankly I never thought about it. My assumption was that if the boy was working as a host, someone else had already done "the necessary" - whatever that might have been. The whole two-tier age of consent has only come in over the last ten (?) years. The Thai age has always been 15; however the law was changed to say that where prostitution is involved (itself illegal) then the age of consent is 18. The kicker is that same-sex activities are deemed to be prostitution, therefore the age of consent is 18. I don't recall seeing any prosecutions for teenage same-sex activities between Thais - you can assume the law was changed to placate the international do-gooders

I totally agree with everything that you have said in your post Hommie, especially with being spot on in my opinion with regard to the laws being changed to placate the international do-gooders.


George

To answer your question - no matter how strong the attraction, overwhelming though it might be, if he was underage I would walk away. The reason is the catastrophic consequences of 20 years in jail, no matter how remote the chances of it actually happening, a nightmare of living hell that nothing could be worth.

kcurterif

I have never ever heard of anyone being prosecuted in Thailand for having sex with a 17 year old boy, nor do I believe there ever will be. That said I understand totally what you have said above and respect your reasons for saying so.

My thanks to you all for your honesty in your replies and answering the question only, as opposed to making any judgements on anyone else. It is a refreshing change here. Quite how long this will last though, before we have someone telling us what we should and should not do, is another matter. I guess we will have to wait and see. I will also be interested to see, if others that contribute to this thread, do so by being as honest as your three postys above.




G.

[kittyboy]

On one of my trips to Thailand - late 90's I think - I was staying at the Flamingo hotel. I had arrived the previous day after a flight from San Francisco. It was a 20+ hour flight and the time difference I think is about 10 hours. I had had a couple of beer but could not sleep and was up late after the bars had closed. I was sitting on a bench near the hotel in front of a pool place that was still open and a young thai guy came up and wanted me to take him back to my hotel. He indicated that he needed the money for rent etc... I want not really intersted but he gave me a wai and a very pleading look. I figured what the hell... might as well have sex and give him 1000 baht. We went back to the Flamingo - the desk clerk was either asleep or was not paying attention because we went right up to my room. We had sex and then fell asleep. He spent the night and had sex again in the morning. When I got a good look at him after the morning session I realized that he was a bit young looking! Yikes... It scared the hell out of me. I was afraid that he was under age. I hussled him out the door on the quick smart.

I did not check his ID and he probably was of legal age but it made me realize I had to be very careful. I don't really like younger guys anyway - late 20's early 30's is more my style - but I had a vision of me on the front page of the Pattaya Mail in one of those classic photos of the farang sitting at a police table with the purported victim - with their eyes carefully cropped out of the photo - pointing an accusing finger at me. Yikes.... again... No thanks. I will stick to the older guys.

[catawampuscat]

I was in a go go bar the other nite, just outside Sunee Plaza proper and it had been a while since my last visit.
I was amused at the youthfulness of many of the boys and asked one the eternal question about his age.
He said he was 17 and I thought it would be a couple of years before that statement was truthful.
We chatted a bit more. He kept to the 17 story and I suppose if one was drunk
enough they might believe him and just think he was tiny and short.

They let you know about a short time room availability but unless one throws caution to the wind, the world
of young boys is full of problems, dangers, and is a fool's game unless one cannot control themselves and
accepts the possibilities of prison and shame.

I think it best not to name the go go bar as it would give the authorities a heads up and it would be a shame
if it disappeared.. Some think of it as the prep school for some of Sunee's most popular go go bars..
Hopefully, the politically correct police will not start throwing the pedo labels, as one would not be straight if they went
to a girl bar or into lady-boys if they ventured into Minou LB Bar. :cat:

Not that finding underage boys can't happen in other parts of Pattaya and/or Bangkok as well, but it does seem to happen with great regularity in Sunee--I guess it is not the gentrified Cafe Sunee some try to potray it as.

Met a boy in the old Star Boys about eight years ago. He looked youngish so asked for his ID which he produced. I could not check the name he gave me as the card was an old style one all in Thai script. However, the Thai year worked out he was eighteen and the photo looked genuine and was a passable likeness and the card appeared not to have been tampered with.

After offing him numerous times over about two years we lost contact. Met him by chance last year and we resumed where we left off. He had a new ID which showed that he was now 22 years old. Shock, horror, that meant he was barely 15 when I first offed him - which I found hard to believe as in spite of his young looking face, he was certainly well-built and was hung like a horse (even at 15 years old)!

When I asked him about it he told me the old mamasan at the bar eight years ago kept a number of cards and selected one for 'under-age' boys on which the age was 'legal' and the photo looked reasonably like the boy - this was then loaned to the boy for 300 baht of his 'tip' each time he was offed.

I still have some uncomfortable and skin-crawling visions of what might have happened if anyone in authority had checked his age at the time!

The lesson behind this is that an ID card can look genuine and untampered with but may not necessarily belong to the boy in question. Very close scrutiny is required if at all in doubt of a boy's age. And, even after all that, there is still a chance that you can unknowingly be duped into taking someone under-age. Caveat Emptor applies even in such transactions ! :geek:

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"I have never ever heard of anyone being prosecuted in Thailand for having sex with a 17 year old boy"

but plenty have been blackmailed for having sex with a 17 year old. In fact it's one of the worst scams operating and pops up every now and then in Sunnee Plaza. You have been warned.

Homintern is correct ( unusual)..this is driven by interfering western busy bodies and foreign police forces who don't give a stuff about Asian kids busting their guts in slave factories but screech constantly about sex. Hommy's countrymen are amongst the worst offenders ( their police I mean).

[thaiguest]

The fearfullness of many of the gay farangs posting on this topic shows just how successful western anti-gay sentiment has entered thailand. The fact is there is no natural, psychological, physiological or any otherogical difference between a 17 year old and an 18 year old. Levels of maturity vary from individual to individual meaning that one can meet a vey immature 22 year old and a very mature, streetwise 17 year old. For fuck's sake 100 years ago in the west most working class girls were married at 16 as they are today in the east.
As has been already been stated here ALL sex for money is illegal in Thailand no matter what age group is involved. All go-go bars, straight and gay are open under police suffrance and can be closed next year by the new government without a single new piece of legislation being passed. So 'takers off' in the holier- than -thou, strictly over 18 camp, are not so holy after all. They are breaking the law as they would NOT be doing in many European countries if they had sex with a 16 year old.
I have 4 questions;
1) Why is the term paedophila usually bandied about as a gay only condition?
2) Why is it used to describe sex with males who may be under the 'legal' age but are NOT children?
3) Why is 80% of paedophilia in Thailand never even mentioned? ie. sex by straight males with little girls, housed mostly in Thai controlled 'chicken houses'?
4) Why are so many posters on this forum complicit in all this?

The fearfullness of many of the gay farangs posting on this topic shows just how successful western anti-gay sentiment has entered thailand. The fact is there is no natural, psychological, physiological or any otherogical difference between a 17 year old and an 18 year old. Levels of maturity vary from individual to individual meaning that one can meet a vey immature 22 year old and a very mature, streetwise 17 year old. For fuck's sake 100 years ago in the west most working class girls were married at 16 as they are today in the east.
As has been already been stated here ALL sex for money is illegal in Thailand no matter what age group is involved. All go-go bars, straight and gay are open under police suffrance and can be closed next year by the new government without a single new piece of legislation being passed. So 'takers off' in the holier- than -thou, strictly over 18 camp, are not so holy after all. They are breaking the law as they would NOT be doing in many European countries if they had sex with a 16 year old.
I have 4 questions;
1) Why is the term paedophila usually bandied about as a gay only condition?
2) Why is it used to describe sex with males who may be under the 'legal' age but are NOT children?
3) Why is 80% of paedophilia in Thailand never even mentioned? ie. sex by straight males with little girls, housed mostly in Thai controlled 'chicken houses'?
4) Why are so many posters on this forum complicit in all this?

4 answers:
1) By who? Read any Thai and most English papers and you will find there are at least as many if not more references to straight paedophiles (particularly Thai) than gay.
2) Because,legally, they are children even if you do not agree with the definition.
3) It is, but mainly in the Thai papers; farangs being arrested is apparently of more interest to farangs (hence its predominance in farang papers)
4) By complicit, do you mean participating in? That was not my impression.

The fact is .... that a line has to be drawn somewhere. The difference between a 17 and an 18 year old may be one minute or one year - or even two years if it is a "Thai" 17 years and a legal 18 years. The difference for you, as a customer, may mean a lot more.

OK what I have understood is that thai is thai and that explain a lot but still I have problems to understand why so many obviously underaged boys are on the scene also in the go gos and bars mentioned as "seriously" in this forum. Is it correct if I say this is "only a crime" for the thai police if the initial interest are coming from abroad?

Is it correct if I say this is "only a crime" for the thai police if the initial interest are coming from abroad?The Thai police being an enterprising bunch, always on the look out for new ways of increasing their income, very early on realised that they and the do-gooders had a new common interest - nicking foreigners for under-age sex. The do-gooders prefer that the foreigners are named, shamed and deported; the Thai police prefer that the foreigners pay up. B200K is the going rate for "clearing up" most offences involving foreigners and the police in Thailand; for the Thais who get into trouble with the police it's only B40K as that's the daily limit on cash withdrawals via an ATM. The police have sufficient nous to realise that an occasional hand over to the do-gooders by the Thai police of some particularly multiple offender (one already known to foreign police) is an encouragement to their own, low-level activities

[thaiguest]

Many posters on this forum and elsewhere are complicit by their active and inactive support for the rampant notion that paedophilia is largely a gay condition. Its well documented that many African American slaves rooted for the Confederates in the civil war. Gay people should be concerned with justice and fair play for all, including themselves. When I arrived in Pattaya the street kids were already there and if they sit in or close to a bar I happen to drink in what can I do about it? They're Thai kids- I'm only a guest. I would love to help them but If I tried I'd have string of falangs shouting 'paedo' at me.
If there are more references to staight paedophiles in the press (and I don't agree that there are) it might have to do with the fact that 80-90 % of people are staight.
Of course a line must be drawn somewhere regarding the protection of minors. However children are children and 17 year olds are NOT children no matter what any legal system says. Legality and morality do not always coincide. The Iranian authorities were legally entitled to hang the two young gay boys but does that make it right?
I don't agree that the systematic abuse of young girls by Thais, other asians and some falangs is ofen reported in the press here. It's an underground practice that operates by invitation and word of mouth. I have that on the authority of Thai people that I trust.

[Dick]

I well remember a few years ago being besotted with a lithe very handsomme 'boy god' who was the friend of the current boy I was offing. Fantastic eyes, humungous smile... perfect speciman of everything Thai. Couldn't keep my eyes off him. He was amongst the other guys from the same bar that hung around together. He was part of the 'gang'. When we went somewhere as a group - beach, bar, restaurant, entertainment, he was there... great company, great eye candy. I didn't for one minute suspect... blinded I supose by the beauty and assumption that they were all much alike (in age) since all the others in the gang were 'mature', as was his demeanour. The boy I had been offing remarked I see you have eyes for my friend... it is OK if you want to take him. And I had tried so hard to make my 'looking' so very discreet. So I took the boy god for dinner (with permission) one evening, thank you very much. Over dinner I complimented him on the gold chain he was wearing around his neck. Yes he said, my parents bought it for my 15th birthday - in fact it is my birthday again next week. I thought I knew what was coming next. Oh I said. How old will you be next week? 17 he said. Gulp! <Choke on drink> I said why you not tell me your age before?
He replied: You did not ask me!

I'll leave you to work out the moral of the story!

I'll leave you to work out the moral of the story!That's easy - don't ask, don't tell

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"The fact is .... that a line has to be drawn somewhere."..why ? Can't really see the point in this particularly as the age of consent can vary so much..from Italy at 14 (!!!) to 21 in some countries.

This is driven by the west and it's obsession with sex..or the domination of sex and the using of it as a control over people for political reasons.

No-one would question protecting children from abuse..real children..those who are pre-pubescent. But it's a fine line when you begin to rigidly enforce laws that defile everyone involved including the so-called "victims". Thus you get a case like today (look for yourself on the net) where a 13 year old US boy at a Canadian ballet school is charged with "abusing" 9 and 11 year old boys. These younger ones will surely be more damaged from the legal process more than from any bit of harmless experimenting that went on.

Apart from the word "pedophilia" now being used out of it's legal meaning by the gutter trash media ( who love sex scandals and would wither away without them)..no-one in the West seems to bother getting upset that some 9 year old kid is bonded in legal slavery in India for $1 a day (18 hours work / 7 days a week) to bring them their pair of ludicrously over-priced Nike's. !! :pukeright:

end of sermon

are the bars open yet ? :reindeer:

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"Its well documented that many African American slaves rooted for the Confederates in the civil war. "

ROOTING means something else in Aussie vernacular.

then again, maybe they were rooting Confederates and visa versa !! :cyclopsani:
*********************
what was that terrible joke The Colonel used to tell Dame Sanitree at her parties ??..called her a slut behind her back but used to tell her to her face she was like a wombat..poor old dear never got it.."why wombat" she'd say.."wombats eat roots and leaves" was the reply !

"The fact is .... that a line has to be drawn somewhere."..why ? Can't really see the point in this .....

The point is that if there is no line and it is legal (if not moral) to sleep with "children" of any age, then there will always be some who will take advantage of that. I know of one openly gay farang who sleeps with a six year old Thai boy at weekends, and has done so for a couple of years. He claims they only share a bed, no more, and they both prefer it to sleeping alone (in his five bedroomed house). I have no reason to doubt him, but is it legal ... should it be legal ... should it be legal if there was more involved ...?

Unless a line is drawn somewhere you are simply advocating and approving the unlimited sexual abuse of children of any age. That's the point.

Unless a line is drawn somewhere you are simply advocating and approving {...} {Enter obsession of your choice}. Logically that argument carries no weight in almost any circumstance. I draw the line at not going to Pattaya. What is it that I am advocating and approving? Personal morality is always situational; the law is in many circumstances what happens to be the fashionable morality of the day, and absolute. There are some cases - murder, say, or theft - where there is a consensus across most cultures and through most periods in history where we can talk about an irreducible common morality, but those are the exception. I'm sure that many Forum members are opposed to child or/and slave labour, but both are common in mainland China - and no Western government addresses such issues which affect far, far more people than than the odd, sick person who finds the prepubsecent more sexually interesting than an older person. Selective amnesia is also fairly prevalent among Forum members who have forgotten that until comparatively recently, in most countries, their own sexual behaviour with a person of any age was illegal

Selective amnesia is also fairly prevalent among Forum members who have forgotten that until comparatively recently, in most countries, their own sexual behavior with a person of any age was illegal.

Well said, I couldn't agree more especially in good ole United Kingdom where once homosexual activity was legal we all would have gone to jail having a relationship with a guy under 21, then 18 and now 16!
It should also be noted that births from girls under the legal age of consent is on the rise in U.K. and nobody goes ballistic about prosecuting the father who many times is above the legal age......................

In rereading this thread, I must compliment Homintern, Lunchtime O'Booze, thaiquest and sanook for their observations.
Since so many here express comments that reflect ideas that originate in Western (Christian era) cultures, and from laymen with little knowledge of human sexuality, I offer the following, from a professional Asian:

> Pedophilia from the Chinese Perspective
>
> Emil M. L. Ng, M.D., Department of Psychiatry, University of Hong Kong,
> Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam Road, Hong Kong, People's Republic of China
>
> In traditional Chinese medicine, there has never been a mental disease akin
> to, or called, pedophilia or homosexuality or most of the so-called sexual
> variations for that matter. Depiction of "child romance" in ancient or
> modern Chinese literature is not difficult to find. It includes passages on
> joyous heterosexual or homosexual activities by children as young as
> 12-13-years-old with one another or with adults. Children are usually
> described as natural sexual beings and erotic stimulation and sex play is
> viewed as beneficial to their healthy development (Chen, 2000).
>
> In China, the current minimum legal age for sexual intercourse is 18 for
> both sexes. For marriage, it is 22 for males and 20 for females (Ruan &
> Lau, 1997). But in ancient China, when population control was not a
> concern, the age was much lower. In a large part of Chinese history, the
> minimum marriage age suggested by the government ranged between 12 and 16,
> and it was not legally binding, especially in the wealthy class or some
> minority ethnic groups. Until the first half of the last century, there was
> still the practice of child bridegrooms in, but not restricted to, the
> Hubei region of China (Lou, 1970). A male child of any age, even before
> birth, could by parental arrangement get an adult woman as a wife. The
> purpose could be to consolidate family status and relationships or simply
> to have someone to help take care of the child. After marriage, the couple
> slept in one bed like all other husbands and wives. No one would pay
> concern to what type of sexual relationship they might have and when. In
> the normal course of events, they would begin with the sex play that they
> were capable of and wanted, until one day, when the child was old enough to
> desire and do it, they had coitus. After the son grew older, he usually
> took a second wife closer to his age, but he would continue to keep, love,
> and respect the first wife.
>
> Schmidt challenged vehemently the capacity of children to give valid
> consent to sexual activity with adults. Despite his sound arguments, to the
> Chinese, who are particularly conscious of the importance and priority of
> social (and hence, adult) values, to single out for discussion the child
> consent issue in pedophilic activities is blatantly irrelevant and
> hypocritical. Even in Western culture, where individual human rights are
> strongly emphasized, how often do the adults try to ascertain valid consent
> from their children before getting them to do most things? Have the adults
> sought valid consent from their children before baptizing them soon after
> birth? Or, when their children express by words or action that they do not
> want to eat, sleep, play games with adults, or go to school at certain
> times, do the adults not use reward, threat, punishment, persuasion,
> luring, seduction, deception, or any other workable means to manipulate
> them back to the "right track"? Have the adults ever explored and studied
> the "trauma" that may be caused by forcing all those "good" things on to
> their children without their valid consent? There are certain occasions
> when the adults do respect the children's wishes and ask for their consent,
> but only when the choices given to them are within the adult acceptable
> range.
>
> Hence, the seemingly righteous and humanitarian debate on child
> self-determination and consent in sex is just another game adults play to
> impose their own values on children. For most of the everyday adult
> assigned children activities on which the adults hold no discrepant values,
> debates on child consent are taken as irrelevant and best to be forgotten
> for parental conveniences. Yet, for child sexual activity, the debate is
> raised only because not all adults hold the same value judgment. Despite
> what the debaters on each side may say, it does not follow that any of them
> are actually more concerned with children welfare and rights than the
> others. Both sides are only fishing out and exploiting the children's
> rights issue to support their own preconceptions or needs on child
> sexuality.
>
> My commentary is not meant to discourage debates on children's sexual
> rights. Such debates will continue to give insight to the kind of sexual
> politics adults can play and elucidate the true meaning of children's
> sexual rights and their capability to give consent. People just have to be
> reminded that the debates by themselves will not alleviate any moral
> discomfort they might have on child autonomy, no matter which side they
> take on pedophilia.

[dave_tf-old]

The only complicity I've seen in this forum is the detailed mentioning of particular bars which cater to 'those people'. Is it possible that in attempts to steer customers away from certain areas of town and certain bars within that area that those posting such specific information are providing a 'how-to' lesson for those drawn to that? If the goal of such posts is to help stop that trade, wouldn't the poster rather see the travelling 'that kind' stumble around in ignorance? Maybe ask the tourist police for directions?

In my (admittedly) limited experience in Pattaya, the only obviously underage boy I've seen in 'the scene' was bouncing a ball against the wall three doors down from the old Throb/Splash in Boyztown. When his bounce went awry, I picked it up and tossed it back to him. Who belonged there?

[Alaan]

With reference to the original post about caution regarding ids, even when you have seemed to take the necessary precautions in offing a legal aged boy, the net has many gaps. One I came across in my early visits to Thailand was when a 'farang' visited a well regarded Pattayaland Bar, took off a boy who said he was 18.. confirmed by the waiter and with an id card which stated the holder of the card was indeed 18.

Back to the hotel they went, the receptionist who happened to be ladyboy/Katoey was presented with the card... spoke with the boy in an unassuming way [which he later found out was in Issan/Lao dialect... the farang not understanding what was said at the time]... and the receptionist told him the card was correct and the boy was of age. The next morning the boy left to collect his id card, the receptionist called up to see if all was ok..and the boy left the hotel....seemingly all quite in order.

The 'farang' did not take the boy again, but did visit his bar a couple of nights later.. he saw the same boy..signalled for him to come over.. the boy sat, got a drink and tip and went back to dancing. Another farang customer sitting next to the 'farang' noticed he had not taken off the boy.. and spoke to him.. saying he was a nice looking boy but it was wise not to have taken him off as the other farang knew the boy was only 17.

The first 'farang' called the boy over again, he asked him why he had 'mislead' him previously.. the boys reply was.. on the age thing.. he was 17 but in his 18th year so he considered that to say he was 18 was acceptable.. yes the card was fake[but not obvious to the farang].. .. but the receptionist did actually know the boy as he used to be 'in the trade' and the conversation he had with the boy in Isaan/Lao he had said simply to the boy.. "hello A.. how are you.. I see you have a card which states you are 18 but i know you are only 17... so it will be the usual arrangement".... which was...... when the boy picked up his 'id' the following morning Bt300 of his Bt1500 tip went to the receptionist to keep quiet... the boy said it happens all the time and this is the way things are here.. end of explanation!

Had he not re-visited the bar and had the other farang not spoken to him...the farang would have been 'none the wiser'. So difficult to get passed such complicity even when you think you have done everything you could............ a boy who basically lies, the staff of a reputable Pattayaland Bar who[either knowing or not] lie, a receptionist in a seemingly strict hotel who lies.

.. he was 17 but in his 18th year so he considered that to say he was 18 was acceptable.. But that is so common with Thais of all ages. Ask how old they are and most Thai will answer "N" meaning "I'm in my Nth year", whereas Westerners would say "N-1" or "I'm in my Nth year"

Logically that argument carries no weight in almost any circumstance. I draw the line at not going to Pattaya. What is it that I am advocating and approving?

I did not realise that English was your second language; by drawing the line at "not going to Pattaya" you are "advocating and approving" "going to Pattaya". End of free English lesson.

... by drawing the line at "not going to Pattaya" you are "advocating and approving" "going to Pattaya". End of free English lesson.I've always said it must be something in the Pattaya water that rots the mind of the ex-pat community

[catawampuscat]

We all drink the same bottled water as in BKK but homi does have a valid point.

The flotsom and jetsam of the world seem to end up in Pattaya/Jomtien. It is a crazy
town, filled with energy and good times and lots of extreme personalities and some
rather tame and sedate.
Barflies are probably the same anywhere in the world of expats and should be avoided at all
costs as most are out to chew your ear and then leave you with the bin. Watch out for the
generous sort that offer to treat you to an expensive meal and then when he presents his platinum
credit card, the waiter says no credit card accepted here.
Damn, and he doesn't have any cash but will pay you back tomorrow etc. etc.

I do tend to return to this topic and the sight of one flim flam man working his shuffle this weekend
brings it all back up again.. sort of like regurgitation!
I will give this a rest and hopefully the latest
sucker will read this and think twice about his new best friend and his money!! :cat:

Watch out for the generous sort that offer to treat you to an expensive meal and then when he presents his platinum credit card, the waiter says no credit card accepted here.Was that you? So sorry