Dodger
December 9th, 2007, 22:57
Why Kathoeys (or Ladyboys)?
After spending a considerable amount of time and energy over the past 10 years having relationships with the Ladyboys of Thailand, I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion on the topic. In return for my efforts, IтАЩm hoping to receive some factual feedback related to your own experiences, especially as they relate to the life styles and the day-to-day habits and mannerisms of the Ladyboy(s) in your experience(s). Personal opinions about Ladyboys from those who have not had direct relations with them will have little value to this subject, so I would appreciate it if your feedback is focused and factual. I know thatтАЩs a ridiculous statement to make (here), but it never hurts to ask.
Beside the fact that IтАЩve been having relationships with ladyboys consistently over the past decade, IтАЩve also been doing research on the subject, not only to learn more about them, but in an effort to learn more about myself in the process.
My last three boy friends, including the love-of-my-life who I recently bonded with, all fall within this category. My first long-term relationship was with Boy Special. Over the five years that we were together, I watched him transition from a cute effeminate boy who looked great in a pair of baggy blue jeans and ruffled t-shirt тАУ to a full-fledged women (less the sex change operation) who IтАЩm happy to say, now graces the stage at TiffanyтАЩs. Personally, I would have preferred it if they would have just remained тАЬcute, effeminate boysтАЭ, although, it seemed impossible for any of them to avoid this transition, thus the reason I became interested in learning more about the subject.
First тАУ What are They?
In this post, the terms Ladyboy and Kathoey have the same meaning as these terms are used in Thai society interchangeably. The term Kathoey generally refers to a male-to female transgender person or an effeminate gay male in Thailand. They are also commonly referred to as Ladyboys, or as sao (or phuying) phuu ying praphet song (or, a second kind of women), or phet thee sam (third sex). IтАЩve heard the term used to categorize males who exhibit varying degrees of femininity, ranging anywhere from guys who simply dress like guys, and are closer to the western category of an effeminate gay male, to those who weтАЩve all seen that dress like women. Some decide to undergo feminizing medical procedures such as hormone replacement therapy, breast implants, or genital reassignment surgery, although, regardless of their gender presentation, their sexual orientation is primarily geared towards men who are not considered to be gay. Hmmm, that realization caused me personally to do a considerable amount of self exploration. A topic for a later date (I hope)).
A new ladyboy bar recently opened its doors in Sunee Plaza, which is staffed with a dozen or more stunning ladyboys, although there are very few customers. ItтАЩs my opinion that if the owners had done a similar research they would have opened their doors on Walking Street.
Most of the kathoeyтАЩs that IтАЩve interacted with express their satisfaction in changing only certain parts of the body (most often, the breasts), and most seem very content with having both penises and breast , as long as they are viewed as women, have heterosexual relationships with men and behave as a women. They see no need to transgress the gender boundary to become a тАЬtotalтАЭ woman at all. тАЬWhat we see here is actually the confident acceptance of their unique identity as kathoey. And most are proud to be seen as oneтАЭ. Quote taken from
Wong Ying Wuen, Natioanl University of Singapore, Department of Southeast Asian Studies
Thai Spiritual Beliefs
Kathoeys are often identified at an early age, and are considered in Thai culture to be тАЬborn that way.тАЭ
In the West sex and gender are defined above all in terms of anatomy, males have a penis, and women do not. In contrast, in Thailand (as in many other non-Western societies) maleness seems to be defined in terms of what you do with your anatomy (boy, do I get confused when trying to define тАЬmyselfтАЭ when it comes to this), specifically acting as the inserter in sex. If you donтАЩt conform to the stereotype in this regard you have foregone your claim to maleness, and may be allocated to other gender categories (Independent Researcher and Adjunct Professor, Hollins University, Virginia, USA)
Some interesting ideas about multiple genders are found in ancient Northern Thai creation myths which speak of three genders.
Just as genders are perceived as multiple, so too are they perceived in Thailand as transient. Buddhist teachings on impermanence re-birth across lives, and karmic fate may all serve to encourage a person to act on a desire for gender transition. For if all things are transient (even our souls) then why should gender be immutable within a lifetime, especially when the means to alter it are so clearly available today? Buddhist teachings hold that, until such time as we achieve enlightenment, we are all doomed to re-birth. If we are re-born to a future life, perhaps as someone quite different, why not be re-born in this life.
Buddhist teachings hold that the circumstances in which we live today are the product (karmic consequence) in the way in which we lived our previous lives. IтАЩve talked to many Thais who consider the kathoeyтАЩs condition as being karmic, specifically, the consequence of some sexual misdemeanor in an early life or lives. That she is a kathoey is not ideal, nevertheless, her condition is understandable. In talking to many kathoeyтАЩs, including the ones IтАЩve lived with, they also consider their condition to be karmic. According to a white paper published by the Division of, Development and Diversity, University of Hong Kong in 2002, тАЬBy contrast, to fight against ones condition would incur further bad karma.тАЭ
In a Social Context
Kathoeys usually work in traditionally feminine occupations including the entertainment business, dancers, cabaret shows, and of course, the profession we all seem to be well versed in, prostitution.
The kathoeys are much more visible in Thailand than anywhere else in the world, and most researchers estimate that there are somewhere around 300,000 kathoeys in Thailand..
The lives of kathoeys are not easy. Families (and from first-hand experience) especially fathers, are typically disappointed if a son turns out to be a kathoey. Legal recognition of a kathoey is non-existent in Thailand. Discrimination in employment and lending remains rampant. ItтАЩs also my opinion that many, if not most, grow up suffering from deep-rooted emotional problems due to a sense of abandonment at home and alienation at school in the early years. One researcher stated that thereтАЩs only an average of one kathoey per school, which is consistent with the stories IтАЩve heard from the kathoeys IтАЩve befriended over the years, as well as both Boy Special and Su.
A LadyBoy Named Su
Su, who I guess I can refer to as my little phuu ying praphet song, has lived a life which is not uncommon for a ladyboy. His father openly expressed his disappointment in Su when Su was around 5 or 6 years old, this being the first time the physical and psycological characteristics of a kathoey first exposed themselves. Su knew he was different from the very start and could do very little to change that, and actually, has never mentioned that he wanted to change this even if he had the power to do so.
It took 2 years before Su trusted me enough to begin exposing his soft side to me (OK, you morons, IтАЩm not referring to his ass). I sat back and listened to stories about how his father would just walk past him without a glance as he asked his daughter (SuтАЩs younger sister) to go with him to help carry things back from the market. For most of SuтАЩs life he would only go to the market and interact with other members of society with his mother. Hs stated that his father would rarely talk to him or even look at him. It dawned on me once, that at least based on my experiences, a gay Thai boy would usually shun the opportunity to hold my hand when out in the general public, although a ladyboy would grip my hand firmly and never let it go. With Su, I always wondered if this wasnтАЩt partially due to the alienation between him and his father during his youth.
Being the only kathoey in a school filled with adrenylin charged hetero boys has also left its scar. Kathoeys are commonly abused physically by other school children, and sometimes the teachers as well. For Su, this involved verbal abuse (which he described as if it were a constant daily occurrence) and sometimes physical abuse.. IтАЩve become convinced that the constant verbal abuse at that age has the potential for causing the most harm emotionally over time.
ItтАЩs also not considered uncommon for young kathoeys to get raped, although in Thai law any rape charges filed by a kathoey are classified as aggravated assault charges which carry a much lighter penalty than rape charges. The reason for this of course is that a kathoey, by Thai law, is still considered a male. There have been many attempts, mostly led by the Thai Lesbian Rights Council to get the laws revised to acknowledge the rights of the kathoey with no real progress to date.
Based on my experiences, both past and present, I consider the personality of a ladyboy to be exactly the same as a woman, only amplified or more complex in situations where the ladyboy may have been subject to extreme emotional and/or physical abuse. Su is no different. HeтАЩs moody as hell, has crying spells at the most unpredictable moments, spends hours in front of the mirror before his body reaches a normal temperature, and loves to be payed attention to. HeтАЩs never wrong and will launch heat seeking missiles from his eyes if ever proved wrong. YepтАжsounds like a woman to me. .
Ladyboy Stuff in General
If you ever wondered why so many ladyboys start taking hormones at age 20, this is because they have to sign up for the Thai Military Draft at age 21 and any boy (lady boy) who has breasts is usually considered exempt from military service. Having said that, most of the ladyboyтАЩs IтАЩve interacted with start taking hormones a little earlier in their development for the sole purpose of growing breasts. This also seems to be the time that they start wearing two sets of underpants to compress the bulge produced by their penis. Some actually apply tape to the crotch area to obtain the same effect.
Most kathoeys migrate to places like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket for the opportunity to live in a sub-society with other kathoeys. I used to refer to them as a тАЬpack of wolves..тАЭ Most of you have all witnessed this before. They hang in clusters, share a cloak of secrecy that the CIA, FBI and KGB combined couldnтАЩt crack, and can sometimes be ruthless. I sat on Beach Road once during one of my very first trips to LOS and watched a kathoey pick a drunk farangs wallet slicker than a Hungarian Gypsy, and donтАЩt under estimate their fighting abilities. Many a farang has ended up waking up in an emergency room, or worse after tangling with a band of kathoeys. Researchers also commonly state the fact that kathoeys are, on average, much more creative and diligent than the average person. These characteristics seem to serve them well when working in-and-around the sex industry. I always find it amazing when watching them hatch from their cocoons in the morning appearing as chickens who just hatched from an egg тАУ to the beautiful girls we all see parading around PTY in the evening hours.
As tough, and sometimes ruthless as these kathoeys can be, they all have a very soft center. After interacting with a gay boy for ten minutes, I can pretty much read his whole personality. With a kathoey, it usually takes me at least a few years, if not longer. I can say without any hesitation, that the boy I just married is truly the most wonderful person IтАЩve ever met in my lifetime, and regardless if heтАЩs working in the family rice field wearing a pair of dirty jeans тАУ or dressed up in a sparkly dress and high heeled shoes, I love him just the same.
I know full well that many, if not most gay farangs donтАЩt like kathoeys, although I donтАЩt want this to sway your comments on this topic. My primary motivation for posting this topic is to stimulate conversation, and most importantly, obtain more information about kathoeys through any personal experiences youтАЩd be willing to share.
I think itтАЩs fare to say, that after reading this post, (if anyone could stay awake that long), that you now know probably more than anyone else on the planet about the topic of Kathoeys, due to the fact that the research on this topic is extremely limited and very few researchers (if any) can draw upon the actual experience of having a relationship with one.
So there...consider yourself blessedтАж555
mai pen rai
After spending a considerable amount of time and energy over the past 10 years having relationships with the Ladyboys of Thailand, I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion on the topic. In return for my efforts, IтАЩm hoping to receive some factual feedback related to your own experiences, especially as they relate to the life styles and the day-to-day habits and mannerisms of the Ladyboy(s) in your experience(s). Personal opinions about Ladyboys from those who have not had direct relations with them will have little value to this subject, so I would appreciate it if your feedback is focused and factual. I know thatтАЩs a ridiculous statement to make (here), but it never hurts to ask.
Beside the fact that IтАЩve been having relationships with ladyboys consistently over the past decade, IтАЩve also been doing research on the subject, not only to learn more about them, but in an effort to learn more about myself in the process.
My last three boy friends, including the love-of-my-life who I recently bonded with, all fall within this category. My first long-term relationship was with Boy Special. Over the five years that we were together, I watched him transition from a cute effeminate boy who looked great in a pair of baggy blue jeans and ruffled t-shirt тАУ to a full-fledged women (less the sex change operation) who IтАЩm happy to say, now graces the stage at TiffanyтАЩs. Personally, I would have preferred it if they would have just remained тАЬcute, effeminate boysтАЭ, although, it seemed impossible for any of them to avoid this transition, thus the reason I became interested in learning more about the subject.
First тАУ What are They?
In this post, the terms Ladyboy and Kathoey have the same meaning as these terms are used in Thai society interchangeably. The term Kathoey generally refers to a male-to female transgender person or an effeminate gay male in Thailand. They are also commonly referred to as Ladyboys, or as sao (or phuying) phuu ying praphet song (or, a second kind of women), or phet thee sam (third sex). IтАЩve heard the term used to categorize males who exhibit varying degrees of femininity, ranging anywhere from guys who simply dress like guys, and are closer to the western category of an effeminate gay male, to those who weтАЩve all seen that dress like women. Some decide to undergo feminizing medical procedures such as hormone replacement therapy, breast implants, or genital reassignment surgery, although, regardless of their gender presentation, their sexual orientation is primarily geared towards men who are not considered to be gay. Hmmm, that realization caused me personally to do a considerable amount of self exploration. A topic for a later date (I hope)).
A new ladyboy bar recently opened its doors in Sunee Plaza, which is staffed with a dozen or more stunning ladyboys, although there are very few customers. ItтАЩs my opinion that if the owners had done a similar research they would have opened their doors on Walking Street.
Most of the kathoeyтАЩs that IтАЩve interacted with express their satisfaction in changing only certain parts of the body (most often, the breasts), and most seem very content with having both penises and breast , as long as they are viewed as women, have heterosexual relationships with men and behave as a women. They see no need to transgress the gender boundary to become a тАЬtotalтАЭ woman at all. тАЬWhat we see here is actually the confident acceptance of their unique identity as kathoey. And most are proud to be seen as oneтАЭ. Quote taken from
Wong Ying Wuen, Natioanl University of Singapore, Department of Southeast Asian Studies
Thai Spiritual Beliefs
Kathoeys are often identified at an early age, and are considered in Thai culture to be тАЬborn that way.тАЭ
In the West sex and gender are defined above all in terms of anatomy, males have a penis, and women do not. In contrast, in Thailand (as in many other non-Western societies) maleness seems to be defined in terms of what you do with your anatomy (boy, do I get confused when trying to define тАЬmyselfтАЭ when it comes to this), specifically acting as the inserter in sex. If you donтАЩt conform to the stereotype in this regard you have foregone your claim to maleness, and may be allocated to other gender categories (Independent Researcher and Adjunct Professor, Hollins University, Virginia, USA)
Some interesting ideas about multiple genders are found in ancient Northern Thai creation myths which speak of three genders.
Just as genders are perceived as multiple, so too are they perceived in Thailand as transient. Buddhist teachings on impermanence re-birth across lives, and karmic fate may all serve to encourage a person to act on a desire for gender transition. For if all things are transient (even our souls) then why should gender be immutable within a lifetime, especially when the means to alter it are so clearly available today? Buddhist teachings hold that, until such time as we achieve enlightenment, we are all doomed to re-birth. If we are re-born to a future life, perhaps as someone quite different, why not be re-born in this life.
Buddhist teachings hold that the circumstances in which we live today are the product (karmic consequence) in the way in which we lived our previous lives. IтАЩve talked to many Thais who consider the kathoeyтАЩs condition as being karmic, specifically, the consequence of some sexual misdemeanor in an early life or lives. That she is a kathoey is not ideal, nevertheless, her condition is understandable. In talking to many kathoeyтАЩs, including the ones IтАЩve lived with, they also consider their condition to be karmic. According to a white paper published by the Division of, Development and Diversity, University of Hong Kong in 2002, тАЬBy contrast, to fight against ones condition would incur further bad karma.тАЭ
In a Social Context
Kathoeys usually work in traditionally feminine occupations including the entertainment business, dancers, cabaret shows, and of course, the profession we all seem to be well versed in, prostitution.
The kathoeys are much more visible in Thailand than anywhere else in the world, and most researchers estimate that there are somewhere around 300,000 kathoeys in Thailand..
The lives of kathoeys are not easy. Families (and from first-hand experience) especially fathers, are typically disappointed if a son turns out to be a kathoey. Legal recognition of a kathoey is non-existent in Thailand. Discrimination in employment and lending remains rampant. ItтАЩs also my opinion that many, if not most, grow up suffering from deep-rooted emotional problems due to a sense of abandonment at home and alienation at school in the early years. One researcher stated that thereтАЩs only an average of one kathoey per school, which is consistent with the stories IтАЩve heard from the kathoeys IтАЩve befriended over the years, as well as both Boy Special and Su.
A LadyBoy Named Su
Su, who I guess I can refer to as my little phuu ying praphet song, has lived a life which is not uncommon for a ladyboy. His father openly expressed his disappointment in Su when Su was around 5 or 6 years old, this being the first time the physical and psycological characteristics of a kathoey first exposed themselves. Su knew he was different from the very start and could do very little to change that, and actually, has never mentioned that he wanted to change this even if he had the power to do so.
It took 2 years before Su trusted me enough to begin exposing his soft side to me (OK, you morons, IтАЩm not referring to his ass). I sat back and listened to stories about how his father would just walk past him without a glance as he asked his daughter (SuтАЩs younger sister) to go with him to help carry things back from the market. For most of SuтАЩs life he would only go to the market and interact with other members of society with his mother. Hs stated that his father would rarely talk to him or even look at him. It dawned on me once, that at least based on my experiences, a gay Thai boy would usually shun the opportunity to hold my hand when out in the general public, although a ladyboy would grip my hand firmly and never let it go. With Su, I always wondered if this wasnтАЩt partially due to the alienation between him and his father during his youth.
Being the only kathoey in a school filled with adrenylin charged hetero boys has also left its scar. Kathoeys are commonly abused physically by other school children, and sometimes the teachers as well. For Su, this involved verbal abuse (which he described as if it were a constant daily occurrence) and sometimes physical abuse.. IтАЩve become convinced that the constant verbal abuse at that age has the potential for causing the most harm emotionally over time.
ItтАЩs also not considered uncommon for young kathoeys to get raped, although in Thai law any rape charges filed by a kathoey are classified as aggravated assault charges which carry a much lighter penalty than rape charges. The reason for this of course is that a kathoey, by Thai law, is still considered a male. There have been many attempts, mostly led by the Thai Lesbian Rights Council to get the laws revised to acknowledge the rights of the kathoey with no real progress to date.
Based on my experiences, both past and present, I consider the personality of a ladyboy to be exactly the same as a woman, only amplified or more complex in situations where the ladyboy may have been subject to extreme emotional and/or physical abuse. Su is no different. HeтАЩs moody as hell, has crying spells at the most unpredictable moments, spends hours in front of the mirror before his body reaches a normal temperature, and loves to be payed attention to. HeтАЩs never wrong and will launch heat seeking missiles from his eyes if ever proved wrong. YepтАжsounds like a woman to me. .
Ladyboy Stuff in General
If you ever wondered why so many ladyboys start taking hormones at age 20, this is because they have to sign up for the Thai Military Draft at age 21 and any boy (lady boy) who has breasts is usually considered exempt from military service. Having said that, most of the ladyboyтАЩs IтАЩve interacted with start taking hormones a little earlier in their development for the sole purpose of growing breasts. This also seems to be the time that they start wearing two sets of underpants to compress the bulge produced by their penis. Some actually apply tape to the crotch area to obtain the same effect.
Most kathoeys migrate to places like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket for the opportunity to live in a sub-society with other kathoeys. I used to refer to them as a тАЬpack of wolves..тАЭ Most of you have all witnessed this before. They hang in clusters, share a cloak of secrecy that the CIA, FBI and KGB combined couldnтАЩt crack, and can sometimes be ruthless. I sat on Beach Road once during one of my very first trips to LOS and watched a kathoey pick a drunk farangs wallet slicker than a Hungarian Gypsy, and donтАЩt under estimate their fighting abilities. Many a farang has ended up waking up in an emergency room, or worse after tangling with a band of kathoeys. Researchers also commonly state the fact that kathoeys are, on average, much more creative and diligent than the average person. These characteristics seem to serve them well when working in-and-around the sex industry. I always find it amazing when watching them hatch from their cocoons in the morning appearing as chickens who just hatched from an egg тАУ to the beautiful girls we all see parading around PTY in the evening hours.
As tough, and sometimes ruthless as these kathoeys can be, they all have a very soft center. After interacting with a gay boy for ten minutes, I can pretty much read his whole personality. With a kathoey, it usually takes me at least a few years, if not longer. I can say without any hesitation, that the boy I just married is truly the most wonderful person IтАЩve ever met in my lifetime, and regardless if heтАЩs working in the family rice field wearing a pair of dirty jeans тАУ or dressed up in a sparkly dress and high heeled shoes, I love him just the same.
I know full well that many, if not most gay farangs donтАЩt like kathoeys, although I donтАЩt want this to sway your comments on this topic. My primary motivation for posting this topic is to stimulate conversation, and most importantly, obtain more information about kathoeys through any personal experiences youтАЩd be willing to share.
I think itтАЩs fare to say, that after reading this post, (if anyone could stay awake that long), that you now know probably more than anyone else on the planet about the topic of Kathoeys, due to the fact that the research on this topic is extremely limited and very few researchers (if any) can draw upon the actual experience of having a relationship with one.
So there...consider yourself blessedтАж555
mai pen rai