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Dodger
December 3rd, 2007, 08:20
Hi you maniacs,

I just returned from Adventure # 18 and havenтАЩt been plugged in to the forum for the past two months. I can see that the name change game is still popular, although after scanning a few of the posts can see that the faces havenтАЩt changed at all.

In summary, my holiday wasтАжwell, how do I put thisтАжinteresting to say the least. I lodged at my normal roust at Chateau Dale, spent the first few weeks cruising the gogoтАЩs, ate my meals at pretty much the same restaurants, then, reunited with my boyfriend from my last holiday and ended up getting married. Well, that pretty much sums it up.

Before I blabber about the boring marriage stuff, let e give you my perspective on the scene in our beloved town of Pattaya. I never get too caught up with trivial things like bars changing names, police raids, restaurants going out of business, etc., because this is what Pattaya is all about. This place, unique to any other piece of real estate on the planet, survives by remaining in a constant state of flux at all times.

Some of the more noticeable changes that occurred during this holiday included the sale of the Clubbing Enterprise, which frankly, seemed like a good idea to me. Their Jungle Boy Club wasnтАЩt drawing any business, which may have resulted from the fact that you couldnтАЩt see any boys in the place with those bamboo walls obstructing any possible view. The hotel, which IтАЩve been told has great rooms, is better suited for a Boyztown location, possibly where that Thai/English Language Studio is located on Soi 1 with Throb, Splash and BoysBoysBoysтАж.huh!!! Eric, the X-manager of the Clubbing Restaurant, arranged some sort of partnership with SammyтАЩs (Sunee Plaza), and now serves his scrumptious food at an outdoor buffet in front of Sammys. The only thing IтАЩll really miss about these 3 Clubbing businesses is their parties. They had 3 great Grand Opening parties, one for each of these businesses, which of course, would end up being closed before the pig could be removed from the barbeque pit..

Kaos still seems to be the most popular gogo in the Plaza, although all the others were bustling with business every time I cruised by. The French have formed a well defined strategy for managing an evolving monopoly of gogoтАЩs in the Sunee Plaza area. This group of French entrepreneurs now control Kaos, Sundance, Look Bar (formerly Y2K), and the new Minue Ladyboy Bar, and the way theyтАЩve balanced these businesses is pure genius.; They moved all the ladyboys, most of which were just being a pain in the ass in their present locations, to the new Minue Bar. Then they loaded Kaos and Sundance with a mixture of boy boys, a few fem types, and even a few down right ugly dudes, and there you have it.

I spent my first few weeks in Adventure Land just cruising the gogo and bar scenes trying to find another shining star to share some romance with. As some of you may recall from my past ramblings, I had broken up with a boy who I was planning on marrying back in April 2006, and still at odds with him when I returned to LOS this trip.

Finally, one night as I was strolling down Soi Sunee I heard his voice calling my name. I hesitated momentarily before turning around as I had this deep feeling inside that the moment I saw him again meant the whole world was going to change around me тАУ and change it did. No hugs or kisses like our previous reunions. He just stood about 10 yards away from me and asked me in a sheepish voice, how I was doing. Prior to me returning to LOS this time I had received news that he (who IтАЩll refer to as Su) had been arrested for using Yabaa. I received this information about 2 months after returning from my last holiday, which meant there were two more months to go before my next return. The fact that he was caught using Yabaa, in-and-by-itself, was not the thing that blew my mind, it was the fact that he was supposed to be attending a beauty school up near his home in Si Saket which I was paying for. When he found out that I had been informed about his incarceration, and the fact that he was in Pattaya not Si Saket, he didnтАЩt even bother phoning me again. He knew that the gig was up and he didnтАЩt have a leg to stand on.

As a result of his arrest, he lost his job as a waiter at a popular bar, lost face with his friends, most of which were trying to get him to stay away from Yabaa, he lost me, and most the most impacting consequence of all, he lost the support of his family. Needless to say, he was really down in the dumps as he stood in the shadows confronting me for the first time since this incident.

During our brief conversation, I told him that I wasnтАЩt angry about him copping out the beauty school, nor was I angry about his being caught doing Yabaa, as these are the types of mistakes that people make in life. I told him that I was disappointed in him, especially the fact that he had deceived me. I kept this conversation very short and told him that I would like to see him again, although it would not be the same as in the past. I told him that I didnтАЩt want anyone staying with me in the condo full-time, nor did I feel it was a good idea for us to be seeing each other on a steady basis. I donтАЩt remember what his actual response was, but it was subdued and with teary eyes.

I walked away with a lump in my throat and an empty feeling in my stomach. For 2 ┬╜ years I have loved this guy to the point that I was going to bond with him for life, only to watch him walk away from me after having lost everything.

For the next two weeks I hung around with old friends in familiar places, and for the most part, was bored as hell. By then, I had heard the whole story about what happened to Su, from his friends. Of course they were all minimizing what happened telling me things like, he only came back to PTY for a few days and all he talked about was the Beauty School he was attending, he is not a Yabaa boy, he only do a few times with his friendsтАжhe loves you too muchтАжblahтАжblahтАжblah.. I even had two of his best friends, guys who IтАЩve known for several years now, visit me at the condo one afternoon in an effort to reunite the two of us. The bottom line was that Su had received an offer to work back on the gogo scene again, although turned it down тАУ not wanting to ruin his chances with getting back with me again. This story was confirmed by everyone who knew him.

I wanted to see him again, but didnтАЩt want to play any games. By games, I mean my games. I was either going to have to accept his wrongdoings and get back together with him again, or not. I was committed not to use these things against him and play the manipulating game, which would only damage our relationship more.

After seeing each other a few times it was apparent that we were going to end up being together all of the time. Yabaa or nor Yabaa, I wanted to be with him and he wanted to be with me. He agreed to return to see his family for a few days to face the problem he had with his parents head-on. I also wrote a letter to his parents, which Mim (NS Travel) translated to Thai script for me. In this letter I spoke honestly and clearly about my feeling for Su, the challenge we both faced, especially considering the recent problems, and the fact that I planned on supporting him through these difficult times, as long as he is willing to do the work.

Su returned to PTY a few days later and seemed like a new person. His smile was beaming from ear-to-ear. He said his parents and family members were willing to support him, and even took him on two trips to visit the village monk. Note that the Thais version of AA or NA is a little different than in the West. There are no 12 step recovery programs in Thailand, nor are there any books and information on the subject of drug or alcohol recovery, so these situations are commonly handled between the family and the local temple

The next few weeks were possibly the best days of my life. A year ago Su had had enough with the working scene and wanted to transition back to a semi-normal life with his family. This occurred at the same time that I was having my fill of the butterfly scene and wanted to find someone I could begin planning a future with. His hopping on a bus to party with his friends in PTY again, and then getting caught in a police raid with Yabaa in his urine, dislodged everything for both of us.

One afternoon we were just sitting on the sofa talking. He was going on-and-on about how terrible he felt about the mistakes he made, and right in the middle of one of his sentences, I interrupted him and asked him if he would marry me. His first reaction was a look of total shock. This was followed by a stream of tears flowing down his face as he mumbled the wordsтАжyes, I would like to do with you very much. IтАЩll leave out the really mushy part after that, but it consumed the remainder of the afternoon.

We invited his parents down to PTY to visit for a few days and chose this time to blow-their-minds with our plans. Like most Thais, they didnтАЩt say much at first, they just seemed to consume our words without showing any real expression. IтАЩd hate to be playing a game of Texas Holdem with this bunch.. We discussed our plans for both the short term and the long term, and of course wanted their blessings. On the evening of the third and final night of their visit, they informed Su that they were happy for both of us and would be willing to take us to the village monk where weтАЩd have to receive his acknowledgement and blessing as well. Note that Su and I had already visited this monk a year ago to not only receive his blessing, but to also receive his recommendation for the actual date of the ceremony. I remember posting a topic on this forum about 2 years ago which touched on the subject of Buddhism and astrology, and some wizard bursted into the thread saying that there was absolutely no connection between Buddhism and astrology. Well Mr. Wizard, if youтАЩre reading this now, stand assured that you are flat ass wrong. If youтАЩre going to bond with your Thai mate in a Buddhist ceremony, the date of the ceremony is decided by considering the birth dates of both parties, the paths that each persons star(s) is on during a given period, and most importantly, the relationship between the astrological star movements (paths) as they relate to each other. Also, for those who may not be aware, Buddhist monks do not marry people, they simply bless and acknowledge the merit of the two people who are binding. This is not a legal ceremony either, although, considered in Thai culture too be extremely important, and even more significant than having a piece of paper signed at a court house. When two people (gay or str8) participate in one of these ceremonies with the entire family, and in some cases, the entire village present, itтАЩs taken very seriously by all.

One week later Su and I were on the bus rambling toward our destiny. By the way, those who want to visit the Isaan region should really consider the VIP bus line which operates out of a small station on Sukhumvit Road in Central Pattaya. The VIP bus is ultra modern with fully reclining seats for comfortable sleeping, flat screen TVтАЩs where they show full length movies, fully air conditioned, etc. The cost for a trip from PTY to Ubon is 627 bt. Su and I caught the 8:30 PM departure, enjoyed a movie and a little snack and went to sleep. We woke up 6 hours later in Ubon. The total trip is 9 hours. They also have those seats where the center armrest folds up so you can stroke your boyfriends cock under the blanket with easeтАжnot that I would do that mind youтАжit was just a thought.

OKтАжback to my story.

SuтАЩs family lives in a remote village in the southern most section of Si Saket, with the nearest town of any size being Kantharalak which is 9 kms away. Like most Thai families, they live in a very collaborative arrangement where each family supports the well being of the other families by sharing food and other necessities, as well as contributing to the primary social structure of the village. Su has a large family with 3 grandparents, about 10 uncles and aunts, dozens of nieces and nephews, and a host of other small children who form an extended family. Believe me, it took me many trips to this visit to figure out who-was-who, as Su doesnтАЩt understand the English terms for aunt, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc., and relies on describing his relations like this: тАЬ That lady over there is the second daughter of the sister of my fathers motherтАЭ, Yeh, right! I just give them all silly little nicknames that I keep to myself.

SuтАЩs family village is really considered prosperous when comparing it to other villages IтАЩve seen in Isaan. Thanks to the diligent planning of one of the grandfathers many years ago, each family member now owns about 60 rai of land which is used mostly for farming rice and a few other green looking things. Most of the family member homes are large and well maintained with plenty of live stock roaming around. You think a place like this would be boringтАжnot a chance. Su has somewhere between 60-70 family members all of which seem to stay busy all day either working in the rice fields or family gardens, fixing some old jalopy of a farm tractor, giving the kids haircuts, keeping the dogs from killing the chickens, keeping the chickens from eating the asparagus in the garden, keeping the water buffalos out of the middle of the road, or just being involved in their most favorite pastime which is preparing and eating food. The village, being literally cut out of the jungle, is lush with trees of all kinds. Each family memberтАЩs house is surrounded by coconut palms, banana trees and various other fruit bearing trees.

Of course with Su and I being there, this stirred up a little more commotion in the village, as the kids wanted to see a real farang up and close, and the old timers wanted a reason to sit on a tree stump and look at something different for a while. In all seriousness, it was great fun for all.

Su and I stayed in his village for one week, with most of our time being somehow connected to our upcoming bonding ceremony. His parents took us up to the village wat twice in the early days for the purpose of receiving a blessing from the monks. I guess with all the problems Su and I have had leading up to this marriage, they figured weтАЩd need all the blessings we could get. We spent a consider amount of time just walking to each family members house to spend time chatting. Of course by chatting I mean Su and his relatives talking and me just sitting there with this stupid look on my face. Each family presented Su and I with a bowl of fresh fruit and/or vegetables from their garden. I spent most of my time during these meetings playing with the kids and the animals that I seemed to be able to communicate with on the same levelтАж55555

The actual ceremony took place in two stages. Believe me, I didnтАЩt have any idea how this thing worked and just had to go with the flow. The first part was a fairly long session with the monks at the wat. MoтАЩs mother and father were the only other people involved in this phase of the ceremony, and they carried gifts for the 4 monks in the ceremony which included four envelopes, each containing 500 baht which I had given them the night before. Su and I were situated in a kneeling position on a straw mat which had been placed directly in front of the small stage where the monks were sitting. After receiving our offerings, which of course involves a lot of walking across the floor on your knees and waiing, the monks were then served food. This really blew my mind. Here I was, after trekking all the way up to some jungle on the most important day of my life, watching 4 monks eating rice as if we were not eve in the room. Just joking, as I was familiar with this past of the ceremony ahead of time, but itтАЩs still a little weird.

Just as the monks were finishing their meals, I could hear a drum beating outside of the wat. The beats were very slow and produced a low bass sound. Maybe it was the intense heat inside the temple, or maybe the intoxicated feeling I was getting from all the burning incense, but for a split second I imagined King Kong bursting out of the jungle and swiping my wife up with his huge black hand. The really strange thing was that the very split second that the last monk was finished eating the drum beats stopped. Now, tell me how they do thatтАжclose circuit TV, or what?

The longest part of this session included the head monk asking Su a lot of questions. Several times Su would look over at me and smile, which, by the way, created a slight sense of paranoia considering the fact that maybe they were just going to kill meтАжjoking again!!! I have no idea what anyone was saying, although for some reason, I had this very comfortable feeling inside. The head monk looked over at me several times and seemed to covey a very warm feeling. After that part was over, the monks started chanting. After spending the last 10 years reading and learning as much as I could about Buddhism I should have understood what they were doing next, but I hadnтАЩt the foggiest clue. They were either chanting sutras or mantras. In either case, this lasted for about another 20 minutes.

After the chanting was over and wais exchanged, Su and I were handed a bowl of water which had been blessed by the monks. Admittedly, at this point things started to get a little emotional, as Su turned to face me, reached out and took my right hand, placed it over the water bowl and started dripping water over my fingers. I noticed that his eyes were beginning to tear up and wondered if his knees were killing him as bad as mine were killing me. He then hand me the bowl of water and motioned for me to do the same to his hand. ThatтАЩs when I just about lost it. I took his hand in my hand and made the mistake of looking up into his eyes again. This time he had tears streaming down and dripping off his chin, which resulted in a similar reaction from your truly.

After completing another series of wais to the monks, Su and I were led out of the temple by his parents. Again we were handed the bowl and instructed to drip the remaining water on the exposed roots of this strange looking tree which stood at the rear of the temple. Phase one of the ceremony was now complete and no broken bones yet.

I remember asking Su as we walked down the hill to his fatherтАЩs pickup truckтАжтАЭare we married nowтАЭ. He just gave me one of thoseтАж- you are being stupid again but I donтАЩt want you to know thatтАЩs what IтАЩm thinking тАУ type of smiles, and said, no, we will be married after the ceremony with the family this afternoon. I felt like kicking him in his ass. Here I am, a guy who was raised on the bustling west side of Chicago, being as humble and polite through this whole thing as I can possibly be, and itтАЩs just a given that I would understand all the phases involved with this Buddhist ritualтАжgive me a break. Anyway, I just smiled and said something brilliant likeтАжI knew that.

It was now 12:00 noon, and Su and his mother and several aunts starting preparing for what would be nothing short of a grand feast, while yours truly crashed for a three hour power nap.

The men in the family constructed a large camp fire right in front of SuтАЩs home, which besides the light provided by the full moon, would be the only light at the party. Su and I were married on Loi Krathrong Day (24 Nov) which made the event even more special for us and his family members. The weather was absolutely picture perfect with a slight cool nip in the wind and a beautiful full moon watching over us. The food that was placed on the bamboo deck connected to the front of Sus house could have graced the cover of a Thai cook book. They had prepared everything from grilled sea bass and barbequed chicken to fresh prawns served with a chili sauce, hoi cheng (fresh water clams), and a large assortment of fresh fruit.

There were somewhere between 60-70 family members present, which included SuтАЩs entire family, with the exception of a few of his fathers relatives who live in Chiang Mai and couldnтАЩt attend on such short notice. The elders in the family took their turns sitting next to be and just trying to be friendly in general. The kids, whose ages range anywhere from 2 to 15, kept crawling on top of me for a chance to be in one of the pictures that Su was taking.

Immediately following this feast was the part I almost forgot aboutтАжthe string tying ceremony. This, by the way, is the time where the couple who is bonding actually becomes married in the familyтАЩs eyes. Su led me over to the campfire where they had placed a large colorful straw mat and motioned for me to sit next to him. After we were both seated, his family members, one-by-one, beginning with the elders, starting tying white strings around our wrists. When they were tying the string to SuтАЩs wrist, I would hold his forearm, and vice versa when it was my turn to receive the string. The person doing the tying would sit directly in from of either Su or I, say a short prayer, tie the string, and then wai each of us when they were completed.

This session lasted almost an hour as every single family member, including the children, participated in this ritual. The last two people to tie the strings were SuтАЩs parents who I almost forgot about with everything going on. This was to be another part of the ceremony that got a little emotional. I held SuтАЩs arm as his mother sat in front of him and they both started crying simultaneously. It was just beautiful. To think, just a month earlier his mother wouldnтАЩt even answer his phone calls. I was happy for everybody at this point. By the time his mother got situated in front of me Su was actually laughing as he wiped away his tears тАУ pointing at my eyes which had already started to tear up.

HeyтАжIтАЩve got a tip for any of you guys who visit the Isaan region. Tie a bunch of white strings around your wrists. Seriously, the minute a Thai person spots these on your wrist you become golden in their eyes. ItтАЩs customary to wear the strings for 3 days and 3 nights after such a ceremony, and I can tell you that everywhere I went, regardless if it was in the village, or down in the town, the Thais immediately acknowledged the fact that I had been blessed and had received merit. The elderly lady who I buy my morning coffee and sweet roll from actually charged me less than sheтАЩs charged me in the past. I guess that means that the old witch has been over charging every time and felt guilty doing it when I was adorned with those white strings.. It kind of makes you wonder.

If you can read through some of my attempt to be humorous, you will understand just how important and significant this whole thing was for me. It was an experience of a lifetime, and with a little luck and a good tail wind, it just may last a lifetime.

Su and I spent a few more days with the family and then returned for our last visit to the condo Pattaya.. During our last week together we only went out on the town one night, and that was his opportunity to share the news with all his friends in Sunee Plaza. He tugged me from bar to bar showing off his strings as if they were a 2 caret diamond. His friends always reacted by letting out with one of those loud screeching sounds they make, followed by a rapid-fire series of questions. Su informed his friends, as I did my farang friends, that neither of us will be returning to Pattaya other than for short visits in the future. We spent the remainder of that last week together doing exactly what newly weds are supposed to be doingтАжfightingтАжno, just joking again.

SuтАЩs grandmother gave him a 10 rai piece of property which sits right next to his parents home which is where we plan to build a house in about 2 years time. For the next few holidays, he and I will lodge at the one-and-only hotel in Kantharalak where we can see the family, chase the dogs, feed the chickens, move the water buffalos and entertain the children.

WellтАжthatтАЩs that.

Mai pen rai

Smiles
December 3rd, 2007, 08:55
Another gigantic and effort-engorged Thailand opus from the crowned queen of Stuff-Like-That. If only a few more of the single-sentence wonders (myself included, lately) here could practice same same once in awhile.

Dodger, as usual you inspire me to give it up one of these weeks when the Honeymoon Effect has worn off, football's on TV, and I can find the energy to tap away at a keyboard for a few hours. We come from pretty well opposite directions on how our eyes are coloured by this crazy land and these exquisite hair-pulling people . . . . but, there are stories aplenty to share with this Board. And you do it better, and more openly, than just about anyone.

Thanks for that & cheers . . .

fedssocr
December 3rd, 2007, 09:10
congratulations!

December 3rd, 2007, 09:14
but, there are stories aplenty to share with this Board. And you do it better, and more openly, than just about anyone.

I couldn't agree with you more Smiles. Thanks Dodger for a great report which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I would like to take this opportunity of wishing you both all the very best for the future.

Choc Dee,


George.

December 3rd, 2007, 09:34
Wonderful! Absolutely fabulous! Bravo.

As we say here - more power to your elbow sir!

December 3rd, 2007, 10:02
Thank you so much for sharing
This is what is so nice about this board
Good luck to you both

adman5000
December 3rd, 2007, 10:38
Thanks Dodger for another superbly written lesson. I say lesson because your writing style always provides a nugget or two to learn from along with great humor about the people, experiences and places you encounter. It always makes me appreciate the Thai things I enjoy(and don't enjoy).

Your reports have always been a joy to read and the time you take to write them is appreciated. I think you should find someone to write the screenplay as it would make one helluva movie enjoyed by both Thai and Farang!

Best of luck to the future for you both.

Bob
December 3rd, 2007, 10:41
Way to go (I think, I hope!), Dodger.

Understand a little about the wrist/string thingie. Once, while visiting the family village northeast of Chiangrain, my bf, his nephew (about 4 at the time), and I visited the local temple and the old monk tied strings on all of our wrists while providing a few chanting words. Not the "you're hitched" kind of strings, just somewhat the "best wishes" kind. But several of the local populace did seem to pay a little extra notice to us after seeing the strings. And I was holy for about a nano second...hehe.

In the overall scheme of life, your story gave me the impression that this all happened rather quickly; regardless, best wishes to you and the beloved.

December 3rd, 2007, 11:48
Fantastic! Beautifully told.

No know knows where this union my lead, but I wish you a long and happy journey.

Talk about making memories!

Aunty
December 3rd, 2007, 12:14
Thanks for a great post, Dodger, and congratulations on your marriage. And best wishes to you and Su for a long and happy life together.

May the blessings of Doris be upon you both. :cheers:

TrongpaiExpat
December 3rd, 2007, 12:30
Very nice story, well written and it made me a little sniffy/misty--BF asked if I was getting a cold.

Now, if it goes to shit (I hope not) you still had one hell of an experience.

krobbie
December 3rd, 2007, 15:26
Dodger, I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of your missives before ... what a great chapter.

I too was a little sniffly at the right moments. I guess that's the mark of a good story teller.
I needed to read something happy tonight. I feel quite fulfilled now.

Much happiness to you an bf (we'll call him Su shall we?).

Chok dee,
Krobbie :cheers:

December 3rd, 2007, 15:41
I wish you many years of happiness together.

A delightful story very nicely told. Anyone manage to read this with dry eyes?

December 3rd, 2007, 23:04
Now that I have wiped the excess water from my eyes. Lovely story. The best of luck for now and the many years to come.

dab69
December 3rd, 2007, 23:37
"Trip Report"

Best wishes to you both and years of happiness.

December 4th, 2007, 00:26
Thank you. How blessed you are.

December 4th, 2007, 01:23
Hi Dodger:
If you will excuse the phrase, "What a trip!" Your willingness to share your story, "warts, bumps, bruises and all" is so encouraging. I want to personally thank you for reminding me of not only why I continue to visit this blog regularly in the hope that I may read gems like this, but why I look forward to being in LOS. As you and "Su" continue to grow together, may your lives be blessed with all that is good. Congratulations.
All the best,
Jason

December 4th, 2007, 01:39
Thank you dear Dodger for taking the time to tell your story.

Like all the other mushy romantics on here I was rather emotional reading your words. I really hope it will work out for you both.

Cheers!

jinks
December 4th, 2007, 01:40
If you guys REALLY like nice stories :clown:

I have several old ones saved from the pattayagay board. It closed in September 2003.

Inc...

1 from Doger = Pattaya in 1999.
4 from Smiles = Motor Bikes ; On the Buses etc etc :bounce:

They are on my Blog herein. Link at the bottom of this post. :cheers:

Khor tose
December 4th, 2007, 01:57
Dodger, what a great story. Best of Luck now and forever, and thank you for sharing this. You made my whole day.

December 4th, 2007, 02:44
Congratulations. Wish you both a wonderful future together. Always nice to hear the positive life has to offer. Too often we get much negative so thanks for sharing.

December 4th, 2007, 10:17
Anyone that goes ahead with a life changing expierence like this knowing there are problems ahead has my repect. I do not think I could do this knowing of the Ya-ba and the lies of the past. Hopefully they are in the past. I find it intersting how land rich some family members are but seem very poor to our standards. Several of my friends have done what you are doing and they are always given plots of land as gifts. If I remember right 1 rai = 2 1/2 acres so that is a very generous gift. Best of luck to you.

December 4th, 2007, 10:35
Congratulations!!! Choke Dee Mak Mak I hope both of you will be very happy. Thank you for sharing your story. It was wonderful.

December 4th, 2007, 10:36
And they lived happily ever after.... :king: :queen:

Cheers dude. :cheers:

PS. Make a heckuva movie. Suggest you write it up and shop it out to Hollywood, or Bangkokwood. It would make a lot better movie than some of the crappy gay ones I've seen lately.

TrongpaiExpat
December 4th, 2007, 10:54
PS. Make a heckuva movie. Suggest you write it up and shop it out to Hollywood, or Bangkokwood. It would make a lot better movie than some of the crappy gay ones I've seen lately.

To make it as a Thai movie you need to add more action. Dodger would have to get in no less than 4 shoot-em-ups, at least one car chase and someone has to have a dramatic death. See Bangkok Love Story for the template.

December 4th, 2007, 14:03
sorry, luvthai---one rai equals .3954 acres, less than one half of an acre

sorry to rain on the parade as everyone is jumping on the bandwagon tearing up at this looney story--if you recall the last debacle with dodger when he ran off with this lad's best friend on the night before they were to "wed"--that's commitment for you and since then, this lad's involvement with drugs, lying more, etc==and that's just what is known--what secrets/lies might not be known--now that the lad has nothing, he suddenly loves dodger too much--sure sounds like the basis for a stable, successful long term relationship--the "screeches" that his friends all make--that is the bars of Sunee, the ones he describes that have all the underage, fem, nellie, ladyboy types who do the "screeching"--true young men do not cackle or screech like a woman and they love the melodrama--yes, certainly, to each his own, but this is clearly on a path to disaster and to pretend otherwise is to encourage others to go down the same path--now smiles' relationship, as described on the board, sounds like something to be admired.

Dodger
December 4th, 2007, 17:26
I'd like to thank all you guys (and Lady's) for your nice comments...sincerely.

Based on sound facts related to relationships between gay farangs and Thai boys, there's clearly a 90% probability that my relationship with Su will fail miserably. But also understanding that there's a 100% probability that I'll be dead within the next 50 years, the odds don't look quite so bad.

I spoke with Su on the phone yesterday and he says we're still the talk-of-the-town in his village. I'm not sure if they're just overcome with the joy of the occasion, or still laughing their asses off because the farang from Chicago thought that cows were water buffalo's. In any case, he seemed pleased.

Thanks again...

Vic

dave_tf-old
December 4th, 2007, 18:01
I must admit I teared up a time or two. The fact that my tears were for the poor boys back in Pattaya henceforth deprived of your company and largesse shouldn't diminish their genuineness.

We've always agreed on one thing...that we genuinely like these guys...at least the ones we like...with all their charms and warts. I shall stick with the liking and wish for you both to grow to deserve each other. If that's not a proverb, it should be.

December 4th, 2007, 21:28
This has been fascinating (and I include the cold water poured by a previous poster). I am left with a host of questions and do not wish to seem intrusive but, as I understand it, a formal relationship like this leads to the farang undertaking long-term financial responsibilities both for the partner and his family.
Does Dodger feel able to comment more fully on this?

yaraboy
December 5th, 2007, 00:12
May I be so rude as to inquire about the age difference ?

December 5th, 2007, 00:15
the cold water poured on by a previous poster (me) is a dose of cold water reality. the last thing the board should do is encourage or sentimentalize such a situation.

kenc wrote: There's only one way this story can possibly end....
And they lived happily ever after....

based on what--the previous sterling behavior by both parties??

oh yes, there will be an expectation that the farang will help financially--it doesn't matter how much land and farming the extended family may have or do--the farang will be expected to be the patron--if the family was that well off the lad wouldn't have been working in a go-go bar in the first place. At first, the expectations may be subtle or not so subtle--if the assistance is not provided, that will add one more burden or stress to the relationship--wouldn't have all the intelligent signs said, go slowly, see what happens with this lad and his family and if he goes back to school, stays off drugs, stops lying, will the family expect unreasonable assistance, etc--instead of jumping in to commit to a "wedding", which doesn't really have any legal standing anyway in thailand, but will have set up another, much larger set of expectations from both the lad and the family. So, sorry, i do not get all weepy over someone making a horrible decision that he acknowledges himself has a 90% chance of failing.

Bob
December 5th, 2007, 03:13
the last thing the board should do is encourage or sentimentalize such a situation.


I think you miss the point. You can play Grinch with your life but what's the point of playing Grinch with Dodger's? Dodger took the colorful plunge and had the guts to tell us about it. What's left but to wish him and the beloved the best of wishes?
I don't believe he titled the thread "Here's my story and, now that you know more about it than I do, please butt into my business and tell me how you, the all-seeing and omniscient one, think I fucked up!"

December 5th, 2007, 05:16
one posts on such a board and thinks he will only receive comments telling him or anyone, when it's obviously not true, such things like the only possible outcome to such a story is they lived happily ever after?? yes, let's sugercoat it and bury our heads in the sand--that'll make it all come true! gosh, there were well over 20 weepy congratulations and sentiments, not based in reality, sent Dodger's way--if one, hard, cold look at reality is such a downer, then dodger's in more trouble than i thought!

Dodger
December 5th, 2007, 05:24
Nelson,

Yes, I'll be providing him with financial support, which in turn, will also contribute to making life easier for his family in the future. Due to the problems Su and I have had in the past, as well as considering the dynamics involved with a farang/Thai relationship in general, I decided to take a very conservative approach. This approach, and my rationale for taking this approach, was described very sincerely in a letter which was presented to Su's family prior to our marriage. The money that I'll be providing Su each month for the next year is exactly half of what I've been providing him this past year. There will also be no financial contribution made to his parents, which is customary in Thailand, until one year from to date. With the exception of the money I gave Su's parents to cover the expenses of the party, a 2,000 baht offering for the monks who performed the ceremony, and 2,000 baht I handed Su's father the day we departed for driving us all over the place, there were no additional funds provided. Su and his parents were fully aware of this, and more importantly, the reason why I was taking this approach, before any commitments were made regarding our marriage.

Based on the knowledge I've gained by both observing other farangs in their attempts at cultivating these relationships, and my own personal experiences, I've taken an approach which is probably the complete opposite from what most people would consider reasonable (or, sane). I decided to marry him first and build trust second. Before you start jerking the hair out of your head, let me explain my rationale:

When you bond with a Thai boy you are also bonding with his family. I've elaborated on this point in many discussions both on this forum and back in the PG days and some agreed and some did not. The point that I'm going to try to make is absolutely critical in the relationship in my opinion. To a Thai boy (or girl) there is nothing more important in life than contributing to the well being of their parents and siblings, which becomes even more pronounced in families who are impoverished. The majority of working boys that we all interface with in LOS fall directly into this category. When a farang does get to the point that he's going to bond with his Thai mate, few-and-far-between as they are, they have to accept the fact that their role within the family will be that of a sponsor. Meaning the person who helps them out financially. In the West, when two people get married they stand together and form circle, and around them in this evolving circle are his family members. In Thai culture, when a farang and Thai bond, the farang simply enters an existing circle with the Thai parents being positioned in the center. It's my opinion that the dynamics involved in what I just tried to describe can not be changed or altered. The only exception would be a situation where the Thai partner in a relationship doesn't have a family.

As far as building trust with a Thai boy goes, good luck, because they are all liars. Not some of them, all of them. There isn't one farang, and I don't care where he comes from, how long he's been in the relationship, or how brilliant he thinks he is, that's not being lied to. So if you're going to hang around in a relationship trying to build trust before you take the plunge to get married, you'd better have a case of 100 Pipers and a stack of good books, because you're in for a long wait. In my opinion, the lying will stop only when the reasons for lying dissipate. The lies they're telling are almost always connected to money, coupled with the fact that most of their farang counterparts are liars themselves and just in it for a good blowjob before they get back in their spacecrafts and return to Neptune. Again, just my opinion, but I believe that the lying will dissipate over time when, and if, the Thai boy makes the decision to bond with you.

To summarize all that blabber: I told Su and his parents that I wouldn't be making a financial donation for the marriage, nor would I be providing any financial support, other than the nominal monthly support I provide now, until trust is developed between us. I told them the reasons why the cultivating of this trust was not possible at this time, and the fact that I felt a minimum of one year following the marriage would be needed. Believe it or not, and Sammy I'm sure that you'll prefer not believing it, Su and his parents agreed to these terms, and more importantly, understood my reasoning very clearly.


Yaraboy,

Your question was lot lot easier: I'm 50 and he's 21.

mai pen rai

December 5th, 2007, 08:10
...--true young men do not cackle or screech like a woman ....

"True young men"? I think you mean Gay-for-Pay :toothy4:

Dodger -re: your last post, I couldn't have explained it better myself.

It actually takes just a little bit of generosity to make the lives of poor Thai farmers just a little better. So when mom asks you for $300 to plant the rice crop remember you'll be saving her a) the expense of having to borrow the money from the local (Chinese) loan shark at 30%+ interest and b) helping to break the cycle of harvest/repay loan/borrow again for next year.

December 5th, 2007, 08:29
It still amazes me after 10 years in Thailand how some falang still don't get it.
I have read in this thread how many profess to know how the Thai mind works
and the pitfalls ahead. Yet, possibly out of touch with reality, they still connect
with a young man, to support, knowing, they lie with accomplished regularity
and only want the MONEY !
Romantic imbeciles what? Well, I confess I have been there. At least I have
learned from it. Has anyone else ?

December 5th, 2007, 09:13
I think you miss the point. You can play Grinch with your life but what's the point of playing Grinch with Dodger's? Dodger took the colorful plunge and had the guts to tell us about it. What's left but to wish him and the beloved the best of wishes?
I don't believe he titled the thread "Here's my story and, now that you know more about it than I do, please butt into my business and tell me how you, the all-seeing and omniscient one, think I fucked up!"I'ved lived long enough and seen too many relationships (my own and others) ever to pass judgment on someone else's essay at happiness, no matter what rose-coloured spectacles I think they may be wearing. Good luck to Dodger

December 5th, 2007, 09:23
kenc, might it be possible that when mother asks for $300 to help with the farming, it could actually be a story, or God forbid, a lie?! Perhaps it's to pay back a gambling debt or money borrowed for a variety of other things and now the farang patron will be expected to pay. If Dodger wants to see what's what, he will not give in to any such requests for help with the farming.

adman5000
December 5th, 2007, 09:28
Dodger -
Thanks so much for sharing your rationale (and answering the question about the age difference since I am near the same age as you). My personal experiences correlate with your comments regarding the family connections. In fact, I cut to the chase and offered direct support to the family with basic things they needed from the beginning. So I always saw what my money was going towards as they would proudly show me on my next visit. As a result, I have ended up having a close friendship with my friend's mother who really runs the family. This has created some interesting situations as my friend talked about EVERYTHING with her. Even nearly a year after her son and I broke things off, she called me when her son was critically injured. I helped or he would have died. The family still keeps in contact, but they understand everything is over even if all the pigs die in a flood.

My perspective was different than many forum readers here. I decided from day one to help the families. I knew I would hear stories but I also knew they were desperate. Some might think my good heart was being taken advantage of or that I was stupid to be giving, but I wanted to do what I did and I could afford to do it. What many people would spend on a new toy for themselves, I spent on helping someone who needed it. Even after things were over, I had no regrets. I don't live day to day, they do. I learned from the situations as well.

My next two relationships have been different in that there have not been families involved. (One was raised by his Grandfather who later died as did my friend, the other lost both his parents at an early age.) It is different in that I have not been asked for financial help but if I offer it, it is going directly to help my friend, not an extended family. I don't buy gold chains, cell phones, or the like. I do take him a nice pair of jeans or help out when his noodle-cart business is slow.

I wished you luck because you are a bigger risk taker than I could be. But everyone is different and enjoys living their life in different ways. For me, if drugs are involved, things are over, period. I admire you for taking the chance.
When I read stories like yours or Smile's postings, I try to learn something from it, so please keep them coming.

December 5th, 2007, 11:10
Hi Dodger,

Probably this will go down like a lead balloon with some of the romantics amongst us.

Sounds like your story is out of a Mills and Boon romance or DJ Simon Bates's tear jerkers off Radio 1 in the UK.

It appears from your post, and the way, after seeing him, all of a sudden everything became boring/mundane in Pattaya or you were wandering around aimlessly etc. that you always, [after the initial threat of not getting back together], had every intention of returning to him anyway, regardless of the Yaa Baa or not.

Once you saw him, your heart melted and you had not got over him anyway.

His distance of 10 yards from you to say Hello, was probably to make sure he was out of reach, if you were to take a swing at the little lying swine!

The parents will be delighted, as the Isaarn region are known for being very patient in awaiting rewards, and your threats, which have failed hopelessly, after seeing him, will fade and subside and your kind nature will return when they need assistance.

The falling out is commonplace when they do something wrong, and their families get annoyed with them, just like it is in the West.

It is short lived also, just as it is in the West, and it boils down to, he is my son no matter what he has done.

They also pray or prey on the chance of you getting back together and [helping them in the future,] which they have more chance of, than their kids becoming Rich and famous or Nuclear scientists and doing it themselves.

The pals coming around to see you, is commonplace to tell you what a nice guy he is, and he only took drugs once at a Party, but it just so happens the Police were doing their job that particular night and only by the grace of God, did they [ his friends] get clean away, as they had money in their pocket to pay the BIB or the cops decided they had got enough.[ victims and money!]

The joke about the chickens, buffalo's, vegetables is funny and well received and, at 50, I may just imagine you could possibly tire with these pursuits, after a while when the novelty wears off. I have, for sure.

I have found Dodger, that a lot of Western people residing or spending their time in Isaarn are elderly,poor, both or doing business up here and are forced to reside here. You don't seem to fall in to any of those categories.

An interesting point form another poster, is about the families receiving money, allegedly to help them financially with food, schools fees,but is really to pay off gambling debts.

That is very common in this region of Isaarn, as after the rice harvests have taken place, the next common activity is gambling on Cock Fighting, cards, dominoes etc. Now maybe, some posters know, where the kids learn it from.

I hope all goes well for you in the future, but, as you know, long distance relationships can be very difficult to sustain when you are not on the spot to immediately correct mistakes and wrongdoings.

I have got the T shirt and it is no criticism in any way of your carefully well written and humorous story.

Never mind, if it doesn't work, at least you tried, if it does, it gives hope to others.

dave_tf-old
December 5th, 2007, 11:28
I'm simply happy to have a new way to divide humanity into two camps: Those that would tie a string on themselves for instant cheap artificial karma (with discounts at noodle vendors), and those who wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. That's handier than "Gay and Straight".

December 6th, 2007, 00:29
As far as building trust with a Thai boy goes, good luck, because they are all liars. Not some of them, all of them. There isn't one farang, and I don't care where he comes from, how long he's been in the relationship, or how brilliant he thinks he is, that's not being lied to.

Dodger,

an interesting and honest read.

I was going to wish you luck, as it seems you will both need it, but after reading the above I have changed my mind as I think your "relationship" is doomed to fail and that is what I honestly feel you, at least, deserve. Without trust your relationship is no stronger than the strings you had around your wrists; you clearly do not trust him now, nor does it appear that you are ever likely to, so the most you are ever likely to achieve is a "marriage" of convenience - convenient for you, to satisfy your lust (you can hardly, in all seriousness, call what you have described "love") and convenient for him in that any financial support is better than none.

I have posted elsewhere (LTR thread) about my views / experience of the difference between LTRs (Long Term Relationships) and LDRs (Long Distance Relationships), so there is little need to repeat it here.

To say so strongly that all Thai boys (presumably bar boys / ex-bar boys) are liars, without exception, is actually more than a little sad coming from someone who has just "married" one. My own experience, after a number of years of living here and a working life spent around the world working with a number of nationalities (europeans, arabs and asians) is that there are good and bad in every race, creed, religion and profession - although I do admit that the proportions do sometimes vary considerably! I have had a monogamous, live-in relationship with a Thai ex-bar boy for a number of years and I trust him implicitly - if I did not, how could I expect him to trust me? Our house, land, cars motorbikes, etc are all held jointly and our bank accounts (including my offshore accounts) are also in joint names. I am sure that you, and probably most if not all of the readers here, will consider this foolhardy at best and just plain stupid at least, but we all have to make decisions based on our own experience and judgement and to live with those decisions.

One point on which I will agree with you 100%, however, is that "....most of their farang counterparts are liars themselves and just in it for a good blowjob ...." - I could not have put it better myself!

Finally, I hope I will be proved wrong about you and Su, and it will all work out for the best - we can only wait for the next chapter from kquill's Mills and Boon!!

dave_tf-old
December 6th, 2007, 03:14
Perhaps Dodger should not have robbed himself of the wisdom of internet strangers by failing to ask advice and permission before popping the question.

What we have is a statement of fact and a report on a journey followed by best wishes. What one thinks of this choice or what one foresees as its outcome is irrelevant and rendered moot in the face of the fact that the deed is done.

The board has no obligation to use this news to 'educate' readers. Any reader who would base a large life-decision on anonymous and often frivolous opinion on LTR's with Thai has only to ask or read other threads and be bombarded with collective wisdom, both pro- and con.

Dodger, who is hardly a newbie, certainly has no obligation to post-date his commitment. He is known to many of 'us' in person and to most of the rest of 'us' from many thoughtful and revealing posts. As a unique poster, he's shared a bit of his life here with us again. To assume the right to comment on his choices is personal arrogance and to question replies of well-wishes as perpetuating a 'myth' is even more arrogant.

Homi (bless his heart) spoke my thoughts more succinctly than I can manage. Had I been there, I would have wanted to throw rice...maybe a bit harder than absolutely necessary, but don't fault sincere best-wishes for arriving too late or coming from innocent bystanders.

Sen Yai
December 6th, 2007, 04:23
dave_tf, I just wanted to say that I find it hard to agree with almost anything you say in the above post - this being a public message board an' all :blackeye:

Did Dodger rob himself of collective board wisdom? Up to you! Many come here for that very purpose, others don't.

A statement of fact followed by best wishes - Ok, it probably is based on fact, we have no reason to doubt....

What one feels or thinks is irrelevant - No! This is a message board. Expressing what one feels or thinks is one of the primary purposes of the forum.

The board has no obligation to educate - No, no obligation but every opportunity.

Opinions can be found on other threads - Yes, but we can express opinions specific to this story here.

Dodger... hardly a newbie... a unique poster - Many of the oldest hands have things to learn from others here... and we are all unique! Well, apart from the hydras....

Assuming the right to comment is personal arrogance? - No! This is a public message board. The 'right' to comment is implicit in membership.

To question the replies of well-wishers is more so? - Freedom of speech rules here (doesn't it?)

Homi, bless his heart - No! Bugger him! :bom:

...spoke my thoughts succinctly - Yes, mine too, I would not pass judgment, but rational comment should be expected here. However, I have not lived nearly as long as Homi :cyclopsani:

.. throw rice harder than necessary? - I would have gently scattered petals.. :flower:

Good luck to Dodger and Su.

Bob
December 6th, 2007, 05:06
The evolution/de-evolution of this thread is a very good example of why many of us do not post much at all about our relationships with Thais.

Some of us are friends (real, in-person, friends and "internet" friends we've associated with for years and have grown to know their thoughts and occasional wisdom). It's difficult to really share online with those friends when in the midst of others who view the forum as some form of muay thai match or as an occasion to flex freedom-of-speech rights.

Me? I come here for the information that leaks out occasionally and, I suppose, to psychologically stay connected with both some friends and interesting people and my connections with Thailand. I don't come here for advice (other than mundane information about hotels or whatever) anymore than I consult the astrologers or Dear Abby about what to do with my life.

Anyway, back to the initial thread. Nice story, Dodger (but I've become accustomed to those from you). And, although you don't need it from me, I still gratuitously toss garlands and best wishes to you and the beloved.

December 6th, 2007, 05:40
My reaction is a bit different than many of those expressed.

And that is to say, to myself at least, "good for you, Dodger, and enjoy the moment." I prefer the myopia of not worrying so much about what might happen 'way down the road, as long as today is sunny and warm. If tomorrow is cold and rainy, I hope to enough of my wits to figure out how to manage the situation.

Dodger
December 6th, 2007, 06:39
I think itтАЩs a good time to tell everyone again how much I appreciate your responses on this thread, regardless of the nature of your response.

I enjoy speaking honestly and openly when sharing my experiences on this board and know that not everyone is going to agree with me. The thing I enjoy the most about our forum is the fact that I can speak honestly and openly about my personal experiences without the fear of getting censored or deleted.

I have never, in all the years that IтАЩve participated on this forum, tried to defend my position relative to something that IтАЩve posted, nor will I begin doing that now. Every single member here has the right to do exactly what IтАЩve done, and thatтАЩs speak your mind openly, regardless of what your opinion is. I donтАЩt post topics like this to gain recognition or receive an award from anyone. IтАЩm simply enjoying the privilege of speaking freely, and I encourage everyone else to so the same.

I remember writing about an experience I had with a Thai Boy back in 1999 and some of the negative comments I received when I posted it, both directly on the forum, and a few ugly personal messages. Ironically, thatтАЩs one of the stories that Jinks decided to hold on to and put in his blog. I read the story again myself yesterday when I learned that Jinks had saved it and it rekindled some wonderful memories, although the negative feedback I received back then has somehow been lost in the wind.

Mai pen rai.

December 6th, 2007, 20:26
What we have is a statement of fact ..... To assume the right to comment on his choices is personal arrogance and to question replies of well-wishes as perpetuating a 'myth' is even more arrogant.

What absolute drivel!

1. Dodger clearly does not need you to defend him or to justify his posting - to do so as you have is not only unnecessary but really is arrogant.

2. Anyone who posts on the forum that all Thai boys are liars deserves to be pilloried for it just as does someone who says that they are all angels. How you can consider this a statement of fact loses me ....

Dodger, good luck - I think you'll need it!

PeterUK
December 6th, 2007, 22:46
What absolute drivel!



Yes, I thought dave_tf's comments made the Thai lese-majestie law look tolerant. Of course any opinion or course of action published here is subject to criticism. What a bore the board would be otherwise.

December 7th, 2007, 00:07
there have been some great comments posted here in this thread--if someone does not want a post subject to scrutiny or criticism, then they should not be posting here.

catawampuscat
December 7th, 2007, 00:24
I think Dodger's report reaches most of us because it is honest.. We get the good and bad and the sane
and the mad. Marriages with lady-boys must be an adventure and constantly changing, especially if hormones
are being used. (I have no idea if this is the case with Dodger's lady-boy).

At least one knows that they aren't straight and are gay. There are some beauties in Sunee Plaza at Minou's LB Bar.
I recently had a drink with some friends at Violet Bar and the thought of certain persons passing by and seeing us
in Violet Bar would have been amusing. Even more amusing would be being seen patronizing Minou LB Bar or
even weirder would be Cats Bar in Day-Night. Well, I could claim Cats was my bar but that wouldn't help.

To each his own and I hope my comments are not taken as criticism of anyone's choice of playmate. The only men I really
find weird are the bi-sexuals. How do they ever make up their minds on whether to see a boy or a girl or a lady-boy and one
would have to make this choice over and over in a fun town like Pattaya/Jomtien.. It is all about the good times and let the goodtimes roll, with whoever rocks your world.... :cat:

dave_tf-old
December 7th, 2007, 00:44
The statement of fact I was referring to was that the wedding had taken place. If you think it's OK to pontificate on what was essentially a wedding announcement for the benefit of a dithering reader or a man who's already made his decision, then by all means continue. Dodger certainly doesn't need my defense any more than he needs anybody's belated councel. People posting best wishes don't need to have their motivations questioned either, but free-speak away. My distaste can't block your fingers from your keyboard.

December 7th, 2007, 05:54
dave tf: i agreed with sen yai in his reponse to one of your earlier posts and must say that much of what he said applies here--you make little sense.

you see that very detailed post of Dodger's as "essentially a wedding announcement"? Had his post been just a "wedding annoucement", it most likely would have just invoked a few congrats and been quickly forgotten, but he included a variety of other details that practically begged comment--and as Sen Yai told you, posted them on a board such as this--he is not a rookie to this board and he understands how it works. From additional posts he made in this thread, he appears, to his credit, to have a full understanding that others may post both positive and negative comments. So, you are absolutely correct, he does not need you to defend him and he is free to consider or totally ignore anyone else's comments.

TrongpaiExpat
December 7th, 2007, 12:36
Marriages with lady-boys must be an adventure and constantly changing, especially if hormones
are being used. (I have no idea if this is the case with Dodger's lady-boy).


Lady-boy? Did I miss something, I don't see where he refers to his beloved as a lady-boy?

dave_tf-old
December 7th, 2007, 13:33
Certainly it wasn't a simple wedding announcement or simply a wedding announcement, but it was a wedding announcement nonetheless. It was, as you said, followed by a few congrats...from people with a similar disposition upon reading it...those without a point to make, at least.

I have a difference of opinion on whether or not 'just a wedding announcement' would have been followed solely by a few congrats and quickly forgotten. The 'controversial' statements made by Dodger didn't really come until his 'rationale' post. By that time he (and we) had already been taken to task for 1. marrying and 2. wishing them well, as if the mere mention of it and the followup congrats were intended to mislead the general readership into following their hearts against the advice of "wiser souls".

I will continue to find it rude whether or not anybody else does. My only regret is adding to the rudeness with this detour. For that I apologize to Dodger, but to none else.

Aunty
December 7th, 2007, 16:25
By that time he (and we) had already been taken to task for 1. marrying and 2. wishing them well...............


To not offer ones congratulations to a recently married couple (regardless of ones views of the marriage) shows nothing other than a gross lack of class and social grace on behalf of that individual. God even Beryl's tilted at that one in here. Some of you old bitches need to take a step back and have a long hard look at yourselves. You reek of low-class trash.

Dodger
December 7th, 2007, 16:52
Sammy,

As you already know, I'm a true believer in freedom of speech, and I would like to take this opportunity to exercise that freedom.

Regardless of how you choose to frame this post, i.e., a wedding announcement, a trip report, or whatever, your first response to this post was just flat-out rude in anybodies book. Here's how it started:

Sammy Quote


sorry to rain on the parade as everyone is jumping on the bandwagon tearing up at this looney story

Don't blame me here, but by your own words you are clearly not a very mature or intelligent person. When someone gets married, regardless if you agree with the basis for their marriage or not, it's not polite (the opposite of rude in this context) to refer to their decision, or the way in which they communicated their decision, as being "loony."

I'm sure that a high percentage of the responders to this post saw all the "red flags" in my relationship, although chose to keep their responses positive understanding that the wedding had already taken place, as DaveTF has emphasized.

One sure way that you can determine if something you said was rude or not, is to simply ask the person that you were talking to (or about) if they were offended by your words. Understanding that you're not asking me this question right now, I'll go ahead and answer it anyway. I was offended.

There are about 30 members who have entered comments into this post, many of which I'm sure don't agree with the path I'm heading down, but they worded their responses in a way which simply allowed them to voice their opinions - without being offensive. Do you get the point I'm (we're) trying to make, or is it beyond your present capability?

alipatt-old
December 7th, 2007, 23:32
Add me to the list of those that wish you well.

thaiworthy-old
December 8th, 2007, 00:17
Marriages with lady-boys must be an adventure and constantly changing, especially if hormones
are being used. (I have no idea if this is the case with Dodger's lady-boy).


Lady-boy? Did I miss something, I don't see where he refers to his beloved as a lady-boy?

Cat, we may be in lockstep and it is mysterious if not suspicious, but I too, was wondering how you knew Su was a lady-boy. Not that it's so terribly relevant, but I am curious.

kittyboy
December 8th, 2007, 00:45
Dodger - I don't know you (or anyone else on this board) but congrats on your marriage. You are a braver man than myself in matters of the heart.

As for the negative opinions of others, my shipmate from the navy had a saying.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink.

I tend to keep that in mind when others tell me their opinions of my actions.

I also try to keep in mind when I have an opinion about something...I have plenty of opinions but when applied to other people or situations... they probably all stink.


Good luck.

Mark

December 8th, 2007, 01:01
Sorry, Aunty, that those who do not wish to sugarcoat the situation by offering insincere congratulations to a wedding are considered low class trash. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking weddings, but why anyone gay gets caught up in that straight notion that they somehow must be тАЬmarriedтАЭ to make a commitment to one another is a bit silly, but it has to do with someone posting a тАЬwedding announcementтАЭ in which they also discuss that the betrothed has been a consistent liar, arrested for ya ba, etc, etcтАФdetails I am sure are included in most standard тАЬwedding announcementsтАЭ , and of course, on a board such as this, one should just ignore that and be considered trash for commenting on the reality of the situation. Just because some want to bury their heads in the sand, does not mean we all must!

Also, Dodger, I very much disagree with your statement that:

тАЬOne sure way that you can determine if something you said was rude or not, is to simply ask the person that you were talking to (or about) if they were offended by your words.тАЭ

You make a post that includes the dirty, little details and then indicate later that you give it 99% chance for failure, but then later claim, "I was offended" because others may say you are making a foolish mistake--or, perhaps, I did not sugarcoat my disagreement enough. I guess in an earlier post I gave you too much credit that not being a rookie of this board, you knew what you were getting into when you posted such a message--from reading and posting on this board, I certainly had not gathered to expect only blind agreement with anyone's post--as you can see, others here have disagreed with what I posted, and have done so with calling names, "trash", asshole", etc. Am I offended or surprised, of course not--I know that this board is like, funny, the poster who used the old cliche, about assholes and opinions, seemed to be giving his on my post, so I guess he falls into the same category as I do.

The reality of the situation may actually be that you are too sensitive or too unrealistic to expect that everyone is going to clap you on the back and say, тАЬCongrats or great moveтАЭ when you, yourself, have provided all the sordid details that makes it clear you did not make the right move. Perhaps Sen Yai or Kquill said it better than I did, but if the truth hurts, then for that I do not apologize nor believe I was rude.

December 8th, 2007, 01:49
.... but why anyone gay gets caught up in that straight notion that they somehow must be тАЬmarriedтАЭ to make a commitment to one another is a bit silly....

It is not strictly "on topic", but you should remember that this "marriage" is no more binding than a handshake (possibly less so) and has little connection with the commitment of a recognised marriage or civil partnership; whether gay or straight, marriage / civil partnership is not only about commitment but also often concerns fiscal and financial responsibility, so it is hardly "a bit silly" to many people.

Merely an opinion ....

Wesley
December 8th, 2007, 03:43
Doger,

I wish you all the best in your new and most fascinating adventure in life. I hope happiness and peace will follow you and your new found Love as long as you both shall live.

Wesley

December 8th, 2007, 04:08
.... but why anyone gay gets caught up in that straight notion that they somehow must be тАЬmarriedтАЭ to make a commitment to one another is a bit silly....

It is not strictly "on topic", but you should remember that this "marriage" is no more binding than a handshake (possibly less so) and has little connection with the commitment of a recognised marriage or civil partnership; whether gay or straight, marriage / civil partnership is not only about commitment but also often concerns fiscal and financial responsibility, so it is hardly "a bit silly" to many people.

Merely an opinion ....

Regards to the civil partnership

I agree with your point on this that it regards fiscal and financial aspects.

I went and checked this in West Yorkshire regards Tam, when I was diagnosed with the Throat problem that I had.

I explained at the Registrars office my reasons for wanting to enter into a civil partnership and it certainly, for me, was not to go and announce to anyone that I was married.

He explained that was one of the main purposes of a civil partnership, to avoid family disputes over wealth distribution.

It was to ensure the distribution of wealth and assets to Tam and my two sons, because as you know, He would not have a leg to stand on, in a UK court if the worst occurred.

Anyway, I did not proceed as there were varying obstacles placed before me as Tam was a Thai national and it wasn't a strictly western civil partnership,including letters from Embassies and various other things.

It would have been easier to go and do this in Vietnam.

I found, and it is only in my case that affected my circumstances, so I am not recommending this course of action, unless you wish to do it knowing the consequences, was to place certain properties and monies directly in Tam's name.

Other properties and monies I have kept in my name.

I know full well the implications of the actions I have taken. This is not for everyone and should not be done as a test of proof of love or loyalty.

I also did it in the cold light of day and did not make this commitment after a dozen singha beers in the night establishments of Pattaya.

dave_tf-old
December 8th, 2007, 04:09
so now you think the congratulations not only serve to undermine the doctrine you believe the board should be preaching to the reader, but are also insincere? How dare you?

Whether absolute cynic or pie-eyed romantic, we are capable of expressing sincere best wishes to a friend, even if that friendship is one post old.

December 8th, 2007, 04:13
so now you think the congratulations not only serve to undermine the doctrine you believe the board should be preaching to the reader, but are also insincere? How dare you?

Whether absolute cynic or pie-eyed romantic, we are capable of expressing sincere best wishes to a friend, even if that friendship is one post old.

dave-tf,

Sorry,I don't understand the post if it is following on from mine?

I think our posts have crossed over somewhere here?

December 8th, 2007, 05:04
you are correct, mr quill, dave-tf meant that post for me--he misunderstood in his haste to condemn again anyone who might not unconditionally congratulate Dodger--the "insincere congrats" i was referring to in my earlier post would have been mine had i offered them when i thought differently.

dave_tf-old
December 8th, 2007, 05:19
SammyJ is correct on that one point, KQuill...our posts did cross and mine had nothing to do with yours.

December 8th, 2007, 10:57
Well so far, by my count, we have 31 posters getting out their handkerchiefs to wipe their eyes, throwing rice and wishing the new couple well.
:hb: :mar: :hb: :hello1: :headbang: :hello1:

And we only have 4 old crummudgeons farting in the chapel. :bur2:

December 8th, 2007, 14:14
sorry that any of us "crummudgeons" (actually spelled curmudgeons) didn't weep with the others. When Dodger states that there is a 90% chance the relationship will fail miserably--that is something to cry about--instead let's offer congrats and put in the minds of any other silly person that such actions are the way to go! kenc, if all the other posters jumped off the bridge, would you? Probably, as it would seem to be the thing to do, regardless of the peril and reality.

krobbie
December 8th, 2007, 14:16
Well so far, by my count, we have 31 posters getting out their handkerchiefs to wipe their eyes, throwing rice and wishing the new couple well.
:hb: :mar: :hb: :hello1: :headbang: :hello1:

And we only have 4 old crummudgeons farting in the chapel. :bur2:

Talk about "Cut to the chase". Beautifully said.

I realise that everone's opinions cannot be the same and indeed should not. But let's face it, nobody said you should "clap him on the back and say well done" but is "chok dee" too bitter for the grumblebums to manage? IMHO.

CHOK DEE! Dodger.

December 8th, 2007, 16:09
But let's face it, nobody said you should "clap him on the back and say well done" but is "chok dee" too bitter for the grumblebums to manage? IMHO.

CHOK DEE! Dodger.

Well krobbie, going by a few of the posts here, I guess it is. Having lived in Issan for six years, I have to agree with Kevin, that Dodger will tire of the buffaloes and other animal life sooner rather than later. However, as long as he doesn't tire of Su, or Su of him, they have as much chance of their relationship succeeding as any other one of us here.

As far as I am concerned, it is better to have tried and failed, than never to have tried at all. So on that note, Chok Dee once again from me Dodger.


George.

dave_tf-old
December 8th, 2007, 17:49
OK, sammyJ. You've made your point...several times now...and your words have not been erased by the enemies of free speech. I'm sure any "silly person" reading this thread has recieved the benefit of your educational posts. Even though 30 (?) other people have done their damnedest to undermine your lesson, you must trust in the completeness of your wisdom and let it drop.

As for Dodger? I would just write him off as having failed in his discipleship to your way of thinking. As they say in TL, "Up to you."

We'll continue to differ on the definition of 'arrogant' and 'rude', but after all, Thailand is my primary holiday destination, so I'm quite used to culture shock.

Dodger
December 8th, 2007, 19:36
George,

You raised an excellent point, one in which Su and I discussed many times during the past few months.

George Quote


Well krobbie, going by a few of the posts here, I guess it is. Having lived in Issan for six years, I have to agree with Kevin, that Dodger will tire of the buffaloes and other animal life sooner rather than later. However, as long as he doesn't tire of Su, or Su of him, they have as much chance of their relationship succeeding as any other one of us here.

With the exception of this last holiday, where my travels outside of Pattaya were limited to the one trip I took to Si Saket, I have always spent a considerable amount of time traveling when in LOS, as this is my #1 hobby. Su, also has a desire to do the same, although in his 21 years, has not gone anywhere with the exception of Pattaya and a few places he's gone with me on these little side-adventures. Having said that, we plan to take one or two of these side-trips around LOS each holiday, including a visit to Pattaya each month to see our friends and to spend a few nights bopping around at the discos.

If I'm able to take early retirement, which is still a long way off in the future, I plan to purchase a condo near the ocean somewhere as our home-away-from-home. We've talked about places Hua Hin or Krabi, but who knows, I'm sure a lot will have changed by then.

Having out modest abode in amongst the family members in Si Saket will serve as a great center point for our travels, as well as our connection point to the family, although, as you have stated, would become too boring on a full time basis.

Plans for next April-May include a trip to Koh Samui for our official honeymoon, a trip to Chiang Mai to visit some of his fathers family members, and a few side trips down to Pattaya to party our asses off. I have a feeling that the time we spend back on the ranch in Si Saket will be a relaxing break.

I would appreciate any feedback on your experiences living in Isaan.


mai pen rai

Beachlover
February 3rd, 2008, 07:47
wow, congratulations on your marrage!

It was such a sweet rollercoaster of a journey. It must've been an even bigger rollercoaster for the boy... being seperated from his family, then being accepted back in.

I do wonder though, how long this will be a long distance relationship... ie. how long until you move in permanently with him?

Beachlover
February 3rd, 2008, 07:54
He just gave me one of thoseтАж- you are being stupid again but I donтАЩt want you to know thatтАЩs what IтАЩm thinking тАУ type of smiles

lol cute