The current season?

[anakot]

Has the effect of the enforcement of the 49% foreign ownership rule resulted in a downturn in the tourist industry in Pattaya/Jomtien? I suppose current local owners (not within the 49% deemed) who wish to sell are restricted in whom they can sell to.

Where for example will you find thousands of Thais with enough cash to buy in Ocean Tower (or whatever it is going to be called).

Or is the downturn if it is a downturn to do with the climate developing under the current unelected regime

By way of interest here are some photos of a random day last week at Talay Jomtien Empty pretty much. All the local masseurs and merchants complaining MUCH more than usual.


Is this current season going to be a flop?

Anakot

because of the credit crunch in the USA, there is a fallout all over the world, the UK has started already, albeit not as much as the US I think. However, the days of easy money are over, and I suspect a lot of easy money is funding a lot of property in the world, in this case, Thailand. Even though people have got money, they tend to borrow money to fund a house. The banks have tightened up now and "easy money" is basically out of the window. Thailand will be affected by this I bet.

You don't really have to buy into a condo to visit Thailand.

I'll be in other parts of the world (N.America / East Asia) this Yuletide. I didn't include Thailand in my plans this year as when I booked my trip the political situation was looking unstable. Maybe things will clear up after the elections but I'm not betting.

[allieb]

The tourist industry is dying out in Thailand because of bad publicity in the west of the current government policy of Falang unfriendly. They want our money but they don't really want us.

I am not talking about the Thai people in general who are very falang friendly but the rulers and ruling class. The Thai people will suffer with the downturn in tourists as more and more say well fuck you I will go where I and my money am more welcome. Sad but true.

[adman5000]

I planned my visit in January this year so I can go after the election. Hopefully things will be ok. I try to ignore the government stuff and media and just enjoy the people which I always find easy to do in Thailand.

Can anyone comment on how the season is in BKK? Do the bars have many customers outside the weekend? Any new bars? Any new recommendations? I will try to sample as many massage places and bars as I can and provide some reports when I return.

[bkkguy]

The tourist industry is dying out in Thailand

older western gay sex tourist numbers may be declining but I don't think you will find much general evidence to support for your statement

bkkguy

while it may not be literally "dying out", i certainly do think it is on the decline--do you trust the tourist numbers of the Thai govt? Also, thailand has some increased numbers of chinese, eastern european/russian tourists that often are part of those cheapie tours that inflate numbers of people coming in but really little financial boost to the thai economy,

the thai govt does seem to foolishly create policies that discourage farang and farang investment--many more companies are investing in india, vietnam, china, etc now.

Also, as someone said, the hotel assoc raising the rates so they, too, can attract the high end customers as if that's all they need to do, charge more. they call themselves a beach resort, but do not have any beaches in pattaya that most would feel comfortable swimming in--where do you think all the waste products from all the hotels/condos, etc gin towon go--and out jomtien way, with all the view talays and the other condos and new ocean tower--there are sufficient waste treatment facilities for all that? there are not sufficient waste treatment facilities for what they have now.

if you have thai friends who have almost any kind of business, you will hear them complain--it is not only the old gay sex tourist business that is suffering!

Don't you also think that as the world opens up, and ease of travel to countries previously difficult to get to, or previously with a very limited tourist infrastructure, many people are just trying other destinations now. I don't think it means they have turned their backs on Thailand. People just like to try new places as they become accessible.

I really don't think Thai government policy has an adverse effect on the majority of tourists. I never before heard anyone saying they wouldn't go to Thailand due to political instability. I also don't see much negative publicity in Europe about any so-called anti-farang policies - we should remember that for the majority of tourists the Thai Govt issues FREE 30 day visas on arrival! Investment/residence visas/work permits issues facing other farangs, are entirely separate areas and irrelevant to the tourist who flies in for a few weeks holiday.

I have just returned from another trip to Thailand and I really didn't see/feel a massive drop in tourist numbers - even the hotels I stayed in were very busy. I also have to say the week I spent going to Jomtien Beach didn't particularly feel empty.

Economically the current Thai govt must be doing something right, political/electoral issues aside:

Exports, the main driver of the Thai economy, jumped 27.9 percent to a record 14.5 billion dollars.

see: http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx ... 89969.html (http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/11/30/afx4389969.html)

Funny how things can look different from different parts of the world.
Maybe Scandinavians are different, but there have never been more people from this part of the world visiting Thailand. All flights are almost sold out during the high season, both scheduled and charter flights. Finnair have to increase into 2 flights a day during this season. Tour agencies who normally only make fly/hotel (charter) during the high season, have to make agreement with the hotels for the low season too, or else the rooms will be sold to others.

I was in Thailand October 24-November 12
I know it is just before the high season, but in Bangkok it was almost impossible to get the hotels I wanted. Silom Soi 2 and 4 as funny and busy as ever. Pattaya oh well, I have only been there one time in the real high season many years ago, but now always in May or October, same, same. Not so much business in Boiztown and Sunee, but the same as last time. Although the pedestrian street and Beach road were full of farangs. My hotel almost full.
Koh Samet same, more quiet in weekdays, busy in weekends. Chiang Mai, could not see any differ.

I doubt "normal" tourist care about how easy it is for farangs to run business because of the government and the law. They look at the friendlines of the people, if there is unrest (maybe) and how much value you get for your money. For Scandinavians Thailand is still a bargain compared to Europe and Canary Islands. In fact I think the exchange rate, from Danish Kroner, has never been better in the last 10 years.

Just my opinion.

I ask my Thai friend in Pattaya busy or not. Looks busy for him ! :clown:

Soon i let him flight to Phuket ! But he has problem i love him to much. Hummmmmmmm yes his problem ! :bigsmurf:

they call themselves a beach resort, but do not have any beaches in pattaya that most would feel comfortable swimming in--where do you think all the waste products from all the hotels/condos, etc gin towon go--and out jomtien way, with all the view talays and the other condos and new ocean tower--there are sufficient waste treatment facilities for all that? there are not sufficient waste treatment facilities for what they have now.


I know the new buildings, but to be honest, Pattaya had the same problems 10 years ago. So maybe people have been there and don't want to go back. This is a problem for Pattaya but not a problem for the tourist industri in Thailand generally. BTW I have not seen Pattaya/Jomtien branded as a tourist destination or beach resort, from where I live, at least in the last 6-8 years.

[Shuee]

well done anakot, looks like you got many posters in good mood that day, as i try to raise this subject, but you did better than i;

www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/where-s-the-farlangs-t13359.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/where-s-the-farlangs-t13359.html)

maybe los is lucky that due to the cheap internal local flights that the chinese etc are visiting in their mass as usual, or los would be even quieter

But but but.........The tourism authority told us visitor numbers are up yet again! Maybe they just stay in their looms having sanook more instead of poisoning themselves in the sea.

"as the effect of the enforcement of the 49% foreign ownership rule resulted in a downturn in the tourist industry in Pattaya/Jomtien? I suppose current local owners (not within the 49% deemed) who wish to sell are restricted in whom they can sell to." anakot

Well no as Pattaya and Thai tourism is growing and fast ( google TAT) and the 49% rule has been in force for decades. - OK it used be 52%.

The difference is that the often used but illegal, method of buying through a company is no longer popular and there has been a slowing in sales and lowering of the prices of land, houses and condos to foreigners. Renting seems more popular now.I don't see any strong link between this situation and the tourist market



"Where for example will you find thousands of Thais with enough cash to buy in Ocean Tower (or whatever it is going to be called).

As www.ocean1tower.com (http://www.ocean1tower.com) has only 650 condominiums, of the finest quality in the land, and is attractive to the International Market as well as Thais this is hardly a problem.



"Or is the downturn if it is a downturn to do with the climate developing under the current unelected regime"

Why do you think that there may be a downturn? A few photos of vacant chairs? Tourist figures are on the rise though the sources are changing. US tourists worldwide are declining due to the weak dollar. The Japanese are very sensitive to insurgency. Russians and ex USSR citizens, Finns, Koreans and rich Chinese are growth areas though not many gays in sight.



"By way of interest here are some photos of a random day last week at Talay Jomtien Empty pretty much. All the local masseurs and merchants complaining MUCH more than usual. Is this current season going to be a flop?" Anakot

The photos of vacant seats are not what I see on an average day at the moment and my condo overlooks Dongtan gay beach.

Masseurs and vendors - when did they ever complain of too much business?

What I do experience?

This week I saw over 200 at the PGF beach party, Boyz Boyz Boyz packed solid for the Mr PGF gala and over 400 at last nights fabulous street party. Wait for the figures - I forecast record amounts collected for the PGF Charities.

I had difficulty in finding rooms for relatives for January, several choice hotels were fully booked and I just managed to get a cancellation at Cabbages and Condoms.

There are more gay establishments than ever in Thailand and the numbers and quality are growing. Bars, Saunas, Massage Houses, Hotels, Guest Houses, Restaurants, Cafes, Discotheques, Karaokes, Gyms, Coffee Houses. The overall market is much the same outside of the southern provinces.

I am sorry to disagree so strongly but there is a danger of negative views becoming a perceived fact and ending up a self fulfilling prophecy. Thailand is a great place for a holiday and double or treble that for gay tourists

[anakot]

Thanks for all your replies which I have found very informative.

I live nearby and regularly visit Thailand sometimes 6 or more times a year and have been doing so for yonks so I know the scene(s) well and I am not an alarmist.

Yes I know the 49/51% thing has been around for years along with the company thing but the decision to more strictly enforce them is only recent. And we know this is one of the ways that Thailand works - lots of rules but quixotic enforcement regimes. Doesn't put me off. I've been looking for a little pad for a bit now and will keep looking.

I thought buying through a company was now strictly a no no, although existing ones are being left alone

Thanks for the link to OT1. The building will be an imposing and lofty structure with 611 apartments! But still you gotta sell more than 300 to Thais. Have you seen all the empty apartments in various buildings around set aside for Thais! And now there's going to be a few hundred more.

I also saw the magnificent turn out for the PGF beach party. What a wonderful event and seems to contradict my feelings. Well here's hoping.

Anakot

[thrillbill]

Yes, tourism may be "up" here in Pattaya with the "smiling" "cordial' "worldly" Russians. But... for many foreigners, especially the North Americans, a cost of a flight has gone up around $500 since a couple years ago...and if you are from the US, the dollar is worth a lot less. :idea:

[thaiworthy-old]

Yes, tourism may be "up" here in Pattaya with the "smiling" "cordial' "worldly" Russians. But... for many foreigners, especially the North Americans, a cost of a flight has gone up around $500 since a couple years ago...and if you are from the US, the dollar is worth a lot less. :idea:

I'm not sure I understand the end of this statement. If I live in the US, earn US dollars, and pay for my plane ticket with the same US dollars, how can I have lost anything due to the dollar's devaluation? I thought you only lose if you exchange dollars for another currency. Are there some foreign airlines that are raising their prices because of the dollar to operate in the US?

Fortunately, my next few trips are free thanks to frequent flyer miles. I pay my bills with credit cards that earn them and they rack up fast. Northwest has a great deal twice a year, in the fall and spring when you can buy tickets for nearly half-price in some markets. It's called Cash and Miles. For example, I can buy a ticket to BKK from IAH (Houston) for around $1400 normally, but with Cash and Miles you give up 20,000 miles and get the same ticket for about $750. These prices have risen only slightly over the past few years, but I think the reason has been more from rising fuel costs than anything else.

Hmmmmmmm........interesting thought that tourist numbers down....I used to visit 3-4 times a year, now I struggle to find the motivation to visit once a year. Maybe the whole thing is getting a little jaded (or I am!)
It used to be fun to visit BKK, now it's more of a task, avoiding the touts, avoiding the rip off's, the noise, traffic and ever increasing prices seems to have me putting my trips on hold.
Of course, I WILL go back, just not in such a damn hurry anymore!

[dab69]

after March 1 the price of airtickets go way down
(~$750 no miles cattle class)
or have been jacked way up
before then- "high season".

I too use NWA (from MLI),
a horrendous journey both ways,
but where else would I go-
I have been forever *spoiled*

[thaiworthy-old]

after March 1 the price of airtickets go way down
(~$750 no miles cattle class)
or have been jacked way up
before then- "high season".

I too use NWA (from MLI),
a horrendous journey both ways,
but where else would I go-
I have been forever *spoiled*

You have to play their game, especially when FFM are concerned. Delta appears to have a partnership with NW to go the same route. Unless your origin is Atlanta, you will be flying on NW. But whether you book with NW or Delta, it is still a horrendous journey, agreed. Continental used to do this too, but as of May they will not be partnering with NW for that leg from Narita, so I found Delta.

Worse is taking one airline to get to a gateway city, then moving your luggage cross-terminal to take another carrier, like I did one year with Eva, for example. Eva is great from then on, but getting to the gateway city that way is an even greater challenge. Also, if you purchase a cheap restricted ticket to get to the gateway city and the carrier that takes you trans-Pacific cancels or changes your flight, you are screwed for the cost of the trip to the gateway city. This not the way to travel. Take one carrier all the way or you're asking for trouble.

At least with NW, you move gate to gate, rather than terminal to terminal, and your luggage moves with you. If a schedule changes on one leg, they can accommodate you for all the legs; otherwise you're on your own.

[blazer]

I take NWA from MSP - BKK. Just returned last month total price $1031. Same price as it was 22 years ago when I first started checking prices. Some ups and downs in prices but relatively stable unless you have to travel last minute.

Just one stop, Narita, makes the trip a whole lot easier.

[francois]

[quote="blazer"]I take NWA from MSP - BKK. Just returned last month total price $1031. Same price as it was 22 years ago when I first started checking prices. Some ups and downs in prices but relatively stable unless you have to travel last minute.



Not quite! The price for a coach class flight may have changed little but a upgradeable ticket from coach to business class, using frequent flyer miles, has double or tripled in the past couple of years.
These tickets are $2500 to $3000 when they used to be 1000 to $1200. For those spoiled by traveling business class this increase is a heavy burden.

[atri1666]

Upgrades are shit - only full awards are value for money. Upgrade for return costs me 130000 miles and full award 120000 miles in business or 180000 in first.

I use to fly NWA from Pit thru Detroit but the cost of upgradeable tickets drove me to try Eva and I have flown Eva out of EWR for the last couple years. Evergreen Delux is good value at half the price of NWA. Checking prices this year (mid feb) Eva evergreen delux is 1699 and since CO and Eva codeshare I can fly out of PIt thru EWR for that price. I am thinking of trying the Thai air non stop out of JFK tho this trip as it is only a few dollars more than Eva. Anyone fly out of JFK?

[firecat69]

I have and the flight in Premium Economy is the best flight I ever had to BKK

I am always diffident when it comes to comparing the number of farang visitors on the Pattaya gay scene nowadays with that of the past. When I first visited in 1995, there were only seven or eight go-go bars, nearly all of them in the Boyztown area. They seemed, then, to be vibrant. However, I also remember being the only customer in a short-lived bar in Second Road (Good Boys?). Today, gay falangs are spread out across a much wider area with a vast number of bars to choose from. This means that attempts to judge overall numbers by how many customers are in a particular bar are misleading. At the same time, I would agree that perhaps the popularity of go-go bars is on the wane.

[francois]

I am thinking of trying the Thai air non stop out of JFK tho this trip as it is only a few dollars more than Eva. Anyone fly out of JFK?

The flight from JFK in premium economy is far better than coach class and is a good compromise between coach and business class and at a reasonable cost.
For some unknown reason I was upgraded to business on the return flight which was even better. With Thai Air be sure to check your account on their website to insure you were credited with miles for your flights. They seem to "forget" to do this.

[dab69]

Today, gay falangs are spread out across a much wider area with a vast number of bars to choose from. This means that attempts to judge overall numbers by how many customers are in a particular bar are misleading. At the same time, I would agree that perhaps the popularity of go-go bars is on the wane.
The nature of go go bar customers seems one maybe two drinks per bar and move on or take an off, making it more difficult to judge actual success of business climate.

Remembering my first trip 1997 when hotel waiter would not acknowledge any bars from other than boystown area no matter what I had read in "The Men of Thailand". discovered Sunee area couple visits later.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Remembering my first trip 1997 when hotel waiter would not acknowledge any bars from other than boystown area no matter what I had read in "The Men of Thailand". discovered Sunee area couple visits later.

What year did gay bars come to Sunee? I seem to recall visits to Pattaya in 94 and 95 and there was nothing in Sunee. I did not visit Pattaya again until 2000 or so and by then after reading about Sunee on the old GayPattaya board, I found Sunee.

What year did gay bars come to Sunee?


1997.


G.