Fighting for justice

Guys,

You mentioned a man who was cleared by the supreme court after Fair trials abroad took his case up in 2001.

Mine started in October 2000


FTA are still helping me.


I am still waiting for them to assist me, [ The thai courts] even though the Police have apologized!

Andrew-drummond.com

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Keep us posted ..

Naturally I've heard every bit of scurrillous gossip about you kquill but usually forget most of it after a long lunch.....

Keep us posted if you want.....

I've pretty much forgotten about it all too... until Mr. Kevin brings it all up again!

And I'll bet a lot of the new posters haven't a CLUE what anyone's talking about.

[Wesley]

Naturally I've heard every bit of scurrillous gossip about you kquill but usually forget most of it after a long lunch.....

Keep us posted if you want.....

I've pretty much forgotten about it all too... until Mr. Kevin brings it all up again!

And I'll bet a lot of the new posters haven't a CLUE what anyone's talking about.

you are right I have no idea what is going on kenc,

Wesley

DELETED

DELETED

Naturally I've heard every bit of scurrillous gossip about you kquill but usually forget most of it after a long lunch.

And of course I've heard numerous tales of Mr Drummund who sounds very interesting. But is there anything on his site regarding you..? I couldn't find it if there was.

Keep us posted if you want..I do have a great interest in the legal matters..far more innocent people fall foul of the law than the average person ever imagines.

Lunchtime,

Read the fighting for justice article and then you will catch the drift! [ There's photos as well!] and Embassy letters, just in case anyone thinks I am telling porkie pies!

Kevin, I have admired your restraint in not saying more about the personal crisis you faced which ended up with prison time in Thailand. I'm sure it is a big eye-opener for those who arrived on the gay Pattaya scene after it all quieted down to read about it now.

kquill
You should write a book about it - and would make a great movie.

[travelerjim]

Kevin, I have admired your restraint in not saying more about the personal crisis you faced which ended up with prison time in Thailand. I'm sure it is a big eye-opener for those who arrived on the gay Pattaya scene after it all quieted down to read about it now.

Kevin,

More power to you....
and peace of mind finally will be yours when this tragic life's
episode and trial is settled by the courts.

I am proud of your fine efforts to help the needy and poor in Thailand...

You deserve justice and justice will be yours!

Wowpow has posted a photo on gaytingtong forum which I shall share with you here...

Keep Fighting Kevin - Justice will be Yours!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/travelerjim/KeepfightingKevin.jpg .

http://www.gaytingtong.com/topic1653-135.html

Thanks again Kevin - for sharing your multitude experiences, observations
and information on this forum...it is much appreciated and welcomed!

TravelerJim

[Wesley]

Stunned is he only word I an come up with , not sure I will ever go to [business name deleted under threat of legal action from involved party-Elephantspike] again though

Guys,


Don't know who did wrong by me, but I did not make a mistake in that department!

Guys,

You mentioned a man who was cleared by the supreme court after Fair trials abroad took his case up in 2001.

Mine started in October 2000


FTA are still helping me.


I am still waiting for them to assist me, [ The thai courts] even though the Police have apologized!

Andrew-drummond.com


You do the right thing Kevin! But I have the feeling that we fighting against wind mills. The question for me is: "Can we find Justice in Thailand?"

Let's say some one win a criminal case in the Federal Thai court. The Prosecution lost the case and face! So they went to appeal and lost. And last not least the appeal again and went to the supreme court. And they lost again.

I honestly ask my selves, has the Prosecution the right to appeal? Thailand today 10 Years trial time. For the apology we can't buy anything. 10 years life time and may sleepless nights.

What a Thai citizen do in this case, with no money? Accept the charges and sit in Jail? Can he find justice? NO WAY!!!

[Aunty]

Wow, well my hat goes off to you Kevin! There's certainly a book in there alright, even if the final chapters may still have yet to be written. What amazes me about Thailand when you read stories like these don't they understand that in the eyes of the West, such appalling 'justice' and 'policing' makes them a laughing stock of the whole world? Don't they get that? Stories like that makes Thailand lose face on the world stage. You think that would seep through, wouldn't you???!!!

The other thing I have never understood when it comes to the criminal mind is how do these people (con-artists, fraudsters, corrupt police etc) find each other, and what is the glue that holds them together so tightly and for so long? Surely there must be more to that than just money?

Wow, well my hat goes off to you Kevin! There's certainly a book in there alright, even if the final chapters may still have yet to be written. What amazes me about Thailand when you read stories like these don't they understand that in the eyes of the West, such appalling 'justice' and 'policing' makes them a laughing stock of the whole world? Don't they get that? Stories like that makes Thailand lose face on the world stage. You think that would seep through, wouldn't you???!!!

The other thing I have never understood when it comes to the criminal mind is how do these people (con-artists, fraudsters, corrupt police etc) find each other, and what is the glue that holds them together so tightly and for so long? Surely there must be more to that than just money?


Aunty,

I wish I knew!

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

I await with baited breath for the next move.

Wow, well my hat goes off to you Kevin! There's certainly a book in there alright, even if the final chapters may still have yet to be written. What amazes me about Thailand when you read stories like these don't they understand that in the eyes of the West, such appalling 'justice' and 'policing' makes them a laughing stock of the whole world? Don't they get that? Stories like that makes Thailand lose face on the world stage. You think that would seep through, wouldn't you???!!!

The other thing I have never understood when it comes to the criminal mind is how do these people (con-artists, fraudsters, corrupt police etc) find each other, and what is the glue that holds them together so tightly and for so long? Surely there must be more to that than just money?


It is very easy "Aunty!" One crow not picking in the eye from another crow!!! In some countries as you may know, wearing some uniform is like a license to be a criminal! I personally don't know anymore should I cry or take the guns out!!

Wow, well my hat goes off to you Kevin! There's certainly a book in there alright, even if the final chapters may still have yet to be written. What amazes me about Thailand when you read stories like these don't they understand that in the eyes of the West, such appalling 'justice' and 'policing' makes them a laughing stock of the whole world? Don't they get that? Stories like that makes Thailand lose face on the world stage. You think that would seep through, wouldn't you???!!!

The other thing I have never understood when it comes to the criminal mind is how do these people (con-artists, fraudsters, corrupt police etc) find each other, and what is the glue that holds them together so tightly and for so long? Surely there must be more to that than just money?


It is very easy "Aunty!" One craw not picking in the eye from another craw!!! In some countries as you may know, wearing some uniform is like a license to be a criminal! I personally don't know anymore should I cry or take the guns out!!


Aunty,

Krazydragon actually came and lived with me for a while, during this saga! as it was a bad time for me, I also had soldiers sleeping in the living room with live ammuntion!

Life in Thailand can be very cheap!

What he means in his post is the same as my lawyers told me, "Crows don't pick the eyes out of other Crows!"

Such cases provide compelling evidence against capital punishment; mistakes and miscarraiges of justice occur in both capital and non-capital cases, and not just in Thailand. Impoverished labourers from Isaan don't have the economic means to hire the best legal support to fight injustice. As in the US, it is the poor not the wealthy, who end up on Death Row.

i.e. re: my being against capital punishment poll and your comments.

However, apparently, according to statistics, countries that have the death penalty in place, people are less likely to commit a serious crime, due to the fact that they will have to face "it" if they are caught. Mind you, statistics statistics statistics, do you think that is the case in the US!

Good luck Kevin, and keep your wits about you. I am a great believer in the truth eventually coming out however long it takes.

BTW; I lived in Pattaya when the first 'mishap' happen during the fire, I never used the place again as it left a very bad taste in the mouth...........

deleted with aplogies

[PinkSilom]

'I assume Sanook is the business owner of Sanook sauna'

The poster Sanook is not the owner of the sauna.

[Up2U]

Deleted.

[Brad the Impala]

Oh dear Kevin, is it really wise to bring all this up again, I appreciate that you want justice and all, but what were you doing with all those cigarettes??

And it still grates to read that you have never had anything to do with drugs, at least it does to someone who has seen you freely and regularly inhaling from a large spliff while on an island a couple of hours east of Pattaya. Koh Samet was it? Of course this was before you got fully into bed with the sharks, although they were already helping themselves to the liquor from Cruz 101. The warning signs were there, but you blundered past them.

[Wesley]

I have read and re-read the posts and obviously there is something missing in the story that would influence the out come of an appeal. Since I tend tonot do very well with such politics, a general observation would be kind. I am not sure how he (Kevin)was involved in a a drug case or how Ludstrum who I had always thought to be a friend, was caught up in all this. Since, I am not there maybe you can PM me the links to the rest of the story.


Wesley

deleted

[kodiak]

Fore sure i will never again donate any monies to such charities run or promoted by said [Mr Name Deleted. Do you suppose The London Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1153648.ece) would be so courtious?-Elephantspike] i had previously donated anonymously quite a few baht over the years

If Kevin gets involved in another establishment in Pattaya i will be there in support for sure...!!

I wonder how much longer before this topic gets zapped! :ufo:

[Wesley]

Its close, they deleted my part where I identified what group Mr Mr L is associated with and anyone who has been there already knows this since he is such a huge part of the entertainment. If not deleted it will be locked especially if they locked the innocent one about Billy. This goes to the heart of Pattaya I for one would love to know what the links are that would shed more light on the issues with out having to wait for Kev's book to make it to the neighborhood book store. If so, a short PM would be nice where if you like I will happily give you my personal email account.

Wes

I wonder how much longer before this topic gets zapped! :ufo:


Keeping you interested Kenc!

I have read and re-read the posts and obviously there is something missing in the story that would influence the out come of an appeal. Since I tend tonot do very well with such politics, a general observation would be kind. I am not sure how he (Kevin)was involved in a a drug case or how Ludstrum who I had always thought to be a friend, was caught up in all this. Since, I am not there maybe you can PM me the links to the rest of the story.
Rainwalker posted this link on the first page of this thread: www.andrew-drummond.com/my-work/news/ (http://www.andrew-drummond.com/my-work/news/)

There are several related links at the bottom of that web page.

[elephantspike]

Its close, they deleted my part where I identified what group Mr Mr L is associated with and anyone who has been there already knows this since he is such a huge part of the entertainment. If not deleted it will be locked especially if they locked the innocent one about Billy. This goes to the heart of Pattaya I for one would love to know what the links are that would shed more light on the issues with out having to wait for Kev's book to make it to the neighborhood book store. If so, a short PM would be nice where if you like I will happily give you my personal email account.

Wes

There is something you need to know about me. I'm not from Nottingham (nor Pattaya).

[Marsilius]

It's interesting to see how many people had never heard these details before. There is, without any question, a lot of dirt to be uncovered among the Pattaya ex-pat community.

As a result, I, too, have avoided one particular establishment (which I won't name, but is the same one that has been deleted elsewhere in this thread) for many years.

There is, equally, an impressively orchestrated and usually very effective PR campaign to make certain highly dubious characters look positively saintly.

[Though at least the compilers of the PG Weekly Report these days make it clear that it is, in the main, simply reproducing advertising flyers (about which we can all be naturally sceptical) rather than reporting uncritical puff pieces as fact. (Whenever I used to read one of the old-style pieces about the owner of said un-said establishment, it would remind me of the film critic Louella Parsons who, in any review of a movie featuring her employer's mistress, the actress Marion Davies, would always insert a line to the effect that "Marion was never lovelier"!)]

Thanks for allowing this to be shared with us kquill.

Its certainly given me a lot to think about regarding my own future plans.

DELETED

[PinkSilom]

'It's interesting to see how many people had never heard these details before. There is, without any question, a lot of dirt to be uncovered among the Pattaya ex-pat community. As a result, I, too, have avoided one particular establishment...' 13.09.07

'I was treated so rudely then by the staff (shifted out of my seat for a "Johnny Walker Black Label" customer, buying a drink for a boy who then shot off mid-drink to sit with another customer) that, having complained to no avail to the management, I vowed never to darken their doors again!' 31.05.2007

A tad inconsistent!

[Marsilius]

Not at all.

I have CONSISTENTLY boycotted the place since 1993 (a) having experienced the very poor service then, (b) reinforced by what I thereafter learned about the murkiness referred to earlier on in this posting.

[globalwanderer]

'It's interesting to see how many people had never heard these details before. There is, without any question, a lot of dirt to be uncovered among the Pattaya ex-pat community. As a result, I, too, have avoided one particular establishment...' 13.09.07

'I was treated so rudely then by the staff (shifted out of my seat for a "Johnny Walker Black Label" customer, buying a drink for a boy who then shot off mid-drink to sit with another customer) that, having complained to no avail to the management, I vowed never to darken their doors again!' 31.05.2007

A tad inconsistent!

Pink Silom, if you are going to quote, don't quote out of context to try and make a cheap point..... Marsilius actually wrote

I haven't visited [name of bar deleted-elephantspuike] on principle since 1993. I was treated so rudely then by the staff (shifted out of my seat for a "Johnny Walker Black Label" customer, buying a drink for a boy who then shot off mid-drink to sit with another customer) that, having complained to no avail to the management, I vowed never to darken their doors again!

[PinkSilom]

The date is completely irrelevant to the inconsistency. However, Marsilius has now made it clear that his decision to avoid the bar was NOT 'as a result' of the 'dirt', as he'd previously stated. The 'dirt' just reinforced his decision not to frequent the bar. As a gentleman, I accept his explanation.

[globalwanderer]

The date is completely irrelevant to the inconsistency. However, Marsilius has now made it clear that his decision to avoid the bar was NOT 'as a result' of the 'dirt', as he'd previously stated. The 'dirt' just reinforced his decision not to frequent the bar. As a gentleman, I accept his explanation.

if the date is irrelevant why did you exclude it!!!!!

[Wesley]

There is something you need to know about me. I'm not from Nottingham (nor Pattaya).[/quote]

I am fully aware where you live, I used "they" so as to not point blame to any particular person if it were locked or deleted. I realize without thinking I used a bar name but it seemed useless to exclude the bar name since everyone knows what group he is associated with if they have spent any time in pattaya at all, nevertheless, technically you were quite justified to delete the portion where I mistakenly used the group he is associated with. The sentences accosted with the original beginning post makes it clear who is involved and as such what group they are with. Smiles has alluded to your Bostonian heritage often. I am fully aware you are an American and a professional waiter and you remain on dial up although you could afford to get broad band but for the sake of knowing how things down load you forgo your convenience to understand more clearly what the those in Pattaya go through when working with the forum.

[Smiles]

" ... I am fully aware where you live, I used "they" so as to not point blame to any particular person if it were locked or deleted. I realize without thinking I used a bar name but it seemed useless to exclude the bar name since everyone knows what group he is associated with if they have spent any time in pattaya at all, nevertheless, technically you were quite justified to delete the portion where I mistakenly used the group he is associated with. The sentences accosted with the original beginning post makes it clear who is involved and as such what group they are with. Smiles has alluded to your Bostonian heritage often. I am fully aware you are an American and a professional waiter and you remain on dial up although you could afford to get broad band but for the sake of knowing how things down load you forgo your convenience to understand more clearly what the those in Pattaya go through when working with the forum ... "
Wes at his most lucid.
But forget about reading his works if under any foreign influence, of any kind.

Cheers ... (I think :cyclops: ) ...

[PinkSilom]

'if the date is irrelevant why did you exclude it?'

The poster used the date to highlight how long he had been boycotting the bar. The duration of the boycott did not alter the reason for the instigation of the boycott. Thus, it served no purpose to include the date.

I had forgotten about the episode in the saga of gay pattaya but having again read the various accounts it is evident that one would have a difficult time sorting all this out. Lots of accusations by lots of people. My question is were Mr. L and Mr. M ever investigated by the authorities surrounding the death of the young man who made a will leaving his assets to Mr. M's Thai boyfriend weeks before he died. What was determined to be the cause of the fire? How is it that Mr. L and Mr. M would take part in witnessing such a will? What kind of ethical behavior is this? If none of the rest of the story can be put in perspective this incident alone would lead me to believe that these two are not what they claim to be. Amazing how they had problems back in the UK, were involved in a dubious Will, and involved with serious disputes with business partners. They either had serious misfortune or maybe guilty as some claim. My feeling is that where there is smoke there is fire. These two witness a Will where some naive 28 year old leaves his assets to another guy's Thai boyfriend and then he dies weeks later in a fire confined to one room of the hotel. Oh Please! Can we assume they bought off the boys in brown on this investigation?

Kevin, please do write a book. You can use a nom de plum and even my name if you want. I don't give a rats ass. Maybe this could be touted as a fictional story but of course it isn't fiction, is it?

Out of curiosity is this web site hosted in Thailand? If not what is the problem posting names clearly shown in the local newspapers? Just a question which might help to enlighten us a little as to why the cat and mouse games.

[Wesley]

But forget about reading his works if under any foreign influence, of any kind.

Cheers ... (I think :cyclops: ) ...

yes Lord it was 11 AM and I had just got up after taking more than my usual allowance of sleeping pills. I slept quite good however it may have actually helped my post, in as much as I didn't have to think in order to post. Hopefully by Monday after one of those dreadful colonoscopies I will no longer need a pill to sleep. As of now I tend to have a hard time getting to sleep. It must be no doubt, reading the forum just before bed. If something like that can happen to Kev, God help those that are planning to move there.

Obviously, I like some others have decided where my business will go from now on, even if I have to go to Sunee Plaza to find a boy.

Wesley[/quote]

[Bob]

I didn't have to think in order to post


But it would be a good practice even if the notion is new to some.

(Comment meant with some humor although there did appear to be some self-immolation there, Wes)

[Wesley]

I didn't have to think in order to post


But it would be a good practice even if the notion is new to some.

(Comment meant with some humor although there did appear to be some self-immolation there, Wes)

:Self-immolation is suicide by immolation, notably as an extreme form of protest." The more I protest he less good it does, be sure not to let anyone find out anything personal about you. It will certainly come to rest in a post some way or another. So, yes Bob. Guess you are right. I guess we could not be more off topic however well meant all of this is. I do enjoy a good laugh at myself it keeps me human.

....having again read the various accounts it is evident that one would have a difficult time sorting all this out. Lots of accusations by lots of people......

Yup, that's how I feel. And apparently the Thai courts also, as they seem to have settled it in typical Thai fashion - with no decision on who was right or wrong and everyone being sent home to scowl at each other across the Soi.

Everyone that is except for Drummond and the Bangkok Post who were forced to Eat Crow and retract everything.

When I first came to Pattaya in '03 I knew absolutely nothing about all this but was clued in pretty quickly. Several expats made disparaging comments and dropped hints and scurrilous rumors, first about one of the parties then about the other. It became evident that people were taking sides and expected me to - even as I'm only a sometime visitor!

In the West we are very driven by wanting "Justice" above all else. Someone is Right, someone is Wrong. Guilty or Not Guilty, Good or Bad, up or Down, Black or White. We want to know Who Done It and have them get their commuppance.
The Thais seem to be more interested in "Harmony".

I decided long ago to take the "Harmony" route on this controversy.

[Wesley]

Harmony sounds good, I guess you will live longer if you don't take anything personal or seek justice, having met Mr L and now having read Mr K's posts now for some time it is obvious who in my opinion cares the most about ones self. Maybe it is a Christian heritage and not Buddhist but, putting the needs of others first is a golden rule I tend not to ignore. Often times the path of least resistance make men and rivers crooked. I submit that Kevin has eat enough Crow to bring harmony. I would think like one poster rather than writing a book I would call every TV and newspaper in the world including the ACLU for a good Human rights lawyer. I in fact I know one who is a lawyer for the UN who is a good Friend of mine and is on the board of Freedom House. He is an international lawyer and I would imagine he could present a good case in a Thai court. Anyone can easily see his Civil rights have been violated in this matter.

Wesley

[krobbie]

I think the delightful Mr kquill has left this soi until the dust settles.

If I were he, I would be quite pleased with the debate though. But then I'm just shallow and kquill seems not to be.

Cheers
K.

[elephantspike]

Out of curiosity is this web site hosted in Thailand? If not what is the problem posting names clearly shown in the local newspapers? Just a question which might help to enlighten us a little as to why the cat and mouse games.

No it is not. It is hosted in the U.S.A. I am 100% owner, administrator and webmaster here, and I am an American citizen currently residing in The United States. That is why this thread has not disappeared entirely.

One of the involved parties has been in contact with me regarding this thread, though, and to be fair to him, I am not allowing direct references to him or his businesses here.

He is registered as a member here, and has some legal cases pending which prevent him from commenting on this thread, so it really isn't fair to him to let people mention his name here when he is prevented from responding.

Out of curiosity is this web site hosted in Thailand? If not what is the problem posting names clearly shown in the local newspapers? Just a question which might help to enlighten us a little as to why the cat and mouse games.

No it is not. It is hosted in the U.S.A. I am 100% owner, administrator and webmaster here, and I am an American citizen currently residing in The United States. That is why this thread has not disappeared entirely.

One of the involved parties has been in contact with me regarding this thread, though, and to be fair to him, I am not allowing direct references to him or his businesses here.

He is registered as a member here, and has some legal cases pending which prevent him from commenting on this thread, so it really isn't fair to him to let people mention his name here when he is prevented from responding.


Agreed Spike,

It has gone on long enough!

I initially was trying to point out I have had enough also after seven years and Cancer.][ it upsets me seeing cases arrive far later and get cleared in the Courts,, never mind, they have got to sort it eventually!]


You are the owner and moderator,

Please fell free to move it, delete it or whatever you feel is correct in your judgement!


Anyway, Everybody, Thank you for listening.

I had a conversation with the dear departed Ian McKnight (Le Cafe Royale) many moons ago about possibly making a small investment in one of the gay businesses in Boyztown as a silent partner and which business would be a suitable candidate. He warned me never to have any business dealings with the then proprietors of the hotel across the Soi! He did not give me any firm reason for such advice, just that it was not a sound financial idea, but from reading the Andrew Drummond piece and the links therein I now know why and it seems that the advice was very appropriate.

[thaiguest]

Re KQuill and gay mafia.
I for one am very glad KQuill has"dragged it all up again" as Kenc calls it. I think he has a duty to the MacDonald family and to decency itself to keep informing newcomers such as my self as to the 'justice' situation as it stands now. I hope current updates including present location and mugshops of the 2 scots scumbags are kept before the public to put others on their guard. (Apologies to all decent Scots). KQuill is probably not a complete Mother Teresa though he has done a lot of charity work by all accounts but he certainly lay down with satan's henchmen for a while. Lucky man to come out of it.

[Marsilius]

Regular and recent "mug shots" are to be found on www.pgreport.com (http://www.pgreport.com)

Can Kquill leave Thailand yet? Or is he still prohibited?

I for one am very glad KQuill has"dragged it all up again" as Kenc calls it. I think he has a duty to the MacDonald family and to decency itself to keep informing newcomers such as my self as to the 'justice' situation as it stands now. I hope current updates including present location and mugshops of the 2 scots scumbags are kept before the public to put others on their guard. (Apologies to all decent Scots). KQuill is probably not a complete Mother Teresa though he has done a lot of charity work by all accounts but he certainly lay down with satan's henchmen for a while. Lucky man to come out of it).

Well said, keep it going Kevin you have the support of a lot of guys who would like to see justice done even if it's for only the MacDonald family. Remember you are the lucky one who got tainted as you are still alive and well. The guy who died in the 'fire' was a really nice guy who fell in with the wrong ilk...
BTW He most certainly wasn't idiotic enough to write a will leaving everything to someoneelse's boy friend....might stand up in Thailand, but would have been quickly disputed and thrown out of any court in the West.

I don't think that Andrew D has let it go either, digging deep is his trade, and in this case the bigger the shovel the better.

Thanks Spike, for the clarification. Guess it would be most foolish to host a web site in Thailand with their rather pathetic system of justice.

The sad thing about this whole affair is that justice will never be done. The ineptness (or corruptness) of the boys in brown in properly investigating the death, the will, etc. has doomed that part of the episode. I hope someday when the legal proceedings apparently still in process (only in Thailand) are finished we will get to hear from the individual who is reading this thread but declines comment. Should make for interesting reading. Somehow I don't believe that will ever happen as there will never be "complete" closure on any of the matters related to this. Sorry Kevin, but like someone said at least you are alive.

I for one gave up on the gogo bar at the hotel long ago due to the pushy help. I always felt I was being hustled the minute I walked in.

As a final note, there is absolutely no reason for a farang to invest in these types of businesses (go go bars). Investment therein is frought with potential problems. First off the main thrust of the business is prostitution which is illegal in Thailand. I often wonder just what percentage of the operating expenses go to pay off everyone who needs to be paid off. It must be a nightmare and the return can't be that much in the run of the mill bar. Too many factors on which the owner has little control. Even my former boyfriend, a freelancer, said farangs were stupid to invest in such places. Too much money and too little return as can be seen by the number of bars that have opened, changed hands, or closed over the years.

...One of the involved parties has been in contact with me regarding this thread, though, and to be fair to him, I am not allowing direct references to him or his businesses here.

He is registered as a member here, and has some legal cases pending which prevent him from commenting on this thread, so it really isn't fair to him to let people mention his name here when he is prevented from responding.

I would like to gently point out we have heard only one side of the story here.

I would also like to gently point out that Sawatee Forum is not really the proper place to adjuidcate this dispute.

I have no stake in this dispute. Honest.

[Wesley]

I remember well when i was there for a long period, I was made aware that there were hard feelings between some bar owners and Mr L. The guide I hired was a waiter of the group whom Mr. L shared in ownership. I was told that if he were seen in certain bars in the area it would affect his job at the place of Mr L. So there were bars I was encouraged not to go in and never to off a guy from them, and taking my advise from a local I dis as I was told

obviously this thing goes much deeper than just jealous business owners of which I thought it was all about at the time. there are deep and hard feelings among many local expats of that particular soi.

Wesley

[elephantspike]

...One of the involved parties has been in contact with me regarding this thread, though, and to be fair to him, I am not allowing direct references to him or his businesses here.

He is registered as a member here, and has some legal cases pending which prevent him from commenting on this thread, so it really isn't fair to him to let people mention his name here when he is prevented from responding.

I would like to gently point out we have heard only one side of the story here.

I would also like to gently point out that Sawatee Forum is not really the proper place to adjuidcate this dispute.

I have no stake in this dispute. Honest.

Indeed. In fact the un-named party is urgently concerned that some evidence should be presented in this thread that does seem to indicate that he won a few libel cases against Andrew Drummond in a Thai court in Pattaya.

I will not present this "evidence" here, as it mentions the un-namaed party's name.

If an un-named party is writing his/her concern to the Board owner, could that person supply links that states this position? The links from different sources, seems to paint a terrible story of having justice through bribery. I have no idea if true or not. But as I drive around Thailand I have had to bribe (pay a non receipted fee) for infractions that I did not feel I committed. This concept seems rampant in Thailand. So true or not, stories that say this is how the un-named source won court cases rather than on merit seems plausible, does it not?

That being said, it does not provide proof at all that in this case, bribes were the reason for the verdicts in libel suits. Criminal and civil judgements differ in most countries. Look at O.J. Simpson in the US. Today I read also that Thaskin was seeking a 2 billion baht judgement against a publisher even though the courts have implied the same charge as the publisher.

Thailand has a different sense of libel than the West. It seems to me that it is sometimes used to keep people quite. Maybe rightfully so as anyone can make a damaging statement that can ruin someones future, true or not.

To my view, at this oint it is a dispute between 2 parties. Since I was not involvd and have enjoyed entertainment businesses throughout Pattaya "Boystown" I just think it is too bad these things happened. Further I think that the parties involved must work it out with the courts. Does Thailand have a jury system? Or do the judges alone decide guilt and innocence?

[Wesley]

Deleted

[Marsilius]

"I am convinced if this thread continues worse things than have already happened will happen" - quote from Wesley, above.

You mean that even more people will burn to death, families not see their expected inheritances, and people find themselves facing unanticipated, expensive and interminable criminal charges?

Is someone threatening all of this and worse?

[elephantspike]

Look, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of why Iain MacDonald's death was ruled an accident.

He was cooking breakfast one morning, and as he was cutting his cantaloupe, he slipped with the knife and cut off one of his fingers, He went on to slip with the knife nine more times while he was preparing his fruit. All of his digits were now gone. Upset, he decided to make himself a Bloody Mary.

Luckily, there happened to be an opened bottle of vodka nearby, so Iain took it in his bloody stumps and tried to pour it into a highball glass. Unfortunately, though, he missed, and ended-up dumping the vodka all over his head. Distraught, he attempted to light a cigarette, and was thus consumed by flames.

Perfectly plausible, I think, no?

[Jim Lumsden-old]

This last few days I have watched with more than a Little interest how much I have been discussed vaguely on this forum.
The same old accusations and innuendo's with reference to L the BBB and some less than flattering descriptions.
These coming from the quarters I have had to contend with on many occasions since the conception of these free for all forums.
I usually stay out of the fray but after much thought and consideration to the New Owners of The Ambiance Group I feel a few words are necessary.

My defense of the accusations you have been presented with will not be shown on this forum. That has already been dealt with by two Criminal Courts in Pattaya and Bangkok's Civil Court in legal actions I raised against certain individuals and one of Thailand's leading Newspapers. Each case was presided over by different judges and on most occasions 3 Judges were present as is usual in Thailand.
After a legal battle of 4 years I won in every case with the evidence I presented. Resulting in criminal convictions and substantial damages award by the Civil Court.
The Newspaper accepted defeat and were ordered to print public apologies which they did.
Some of you may choose to think the Thai Judicial System was corrupt and paid off. You would be wrong to think this and the judges involved would be less than pleased were they to be accused of such an act.

I acted on my grievances through the correct and proper channels and I won fair and square. I did this privately and quietly without Public Fanfare.
I did not and never have solicited Public Sympathy as my only means of defense. And as usual I will continue with my life privately and quietly with the full knowledge of all of the events and knowing I won fair and honestly. And should the need arise at anytime do the same again without fear.

Believe of me what you like but please do remember that there are New Owners of The Ambiance Group to consider and they deserved a fair chance to make a success of that Business.
Jim Lumsden

( Look, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of why Iain MacDonald's death was ruled an accident).

More plausible than the original explanation Elephantspike..........

BTW....Not that it means anything, but how many fit young 28 year old make wills unless being in uniform or maybe being advised/lulled into doing so by a third party outside of the family, who might well benefit from any unfortunate mishap!

[elephantspike]

Wow.

Amazing Thailand.

By the way, did I mention the name Iain MacDonald?

He is not a non, I honestly and officially can confirm that. Better 1000 guilty suspects not in Jail as 1 non guilty suspect in jail.

Shortly after I opened the Crazy Pub 18Th March 1995 exactly 1 month later (17Th April 2006)the problems start in my place after some one from Pattayaland showed up. One day later the browns ride the crowded Crazy and arrested nearly 30 staff members. 28Th December 1995 some one try to shoot me with the shot gun on Suhkumvit Road during I drove on my motorcycle. 25Th January 1996 some one try that again from a driving Pick Up Car with a Rifle Gun. Accidental 9Th April 1996 I found a Plastic Bag under my seat from my motorcycle with few hundreds Yaa Baa Tablets. I throw them away and went back to my house. 30 minutes later some Brown Commando showed up and inspected my motorcycle, searched my house and found nothing. The Investigations after all this happened, the result was nothing!!!!

I am not a non, but may a diabolic Priest!!!


:diabloanifire:

[elephantspike]

( Look, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of why Iain MacDonald's death was ruled an accident).

More plausible than the original explanation Elephantspike..........

BTW....Not that it means anything, but how many fit young 28 year old make wills unless being in uniform or maybe being advised/lulled into doing so by a third party outside of the family, who might well benefit from any unfortunate mishap!

Bite your tongue. Lots of folks have wills made out at 28. I had a will at 12. I left everything to the guy that had the gun to my head.

[Hmmm]

The Sawatdee Gay Thailand court - Pattaya division - is in session.

I see that all the interested parties are present.

The court is already in possession of depositions from a number of the parties that are in the pubic domain.

Gentlemen, state your case.

There will be a poll to decide the result.

The Sawatdee Gay Thailand court - Pattaya division - is in session.

I see that all the interested parties are present.

The court is already in possession of depositions from a number of the parties that are in the pubic domain.

Gentlemen, state your case.

There will be a poll to decide the result.

A pointless exercise as from previous posts it appears the Kangaroo Court has decided and the lynching party is ready to go.

Can Kquill leave Thailand yet? Or is he still prohibited?


Dear Pattayamale,

They have allowed me to return to the UK and other destinations on a number of occasions as I was cleared by the appeal court.

However, as is usual in these cases the public prosecutor takes it to the Supreme and you must await them which, in total, is just short of seven years, since this began.

I'll post no further on the matter.

I, from the start, was pointing out that seven years plus Cancer in the meantime, is a hell of a wait, when cases arriving in the Courts much later have been cleared.

This post only occurred following another person posting on a thread regards a man getting his sentence quashed after six years after Fair trials abroad took up the case, as they have with me.

[Smiles]

Seems to me there are only two items that we all know for sure happened as a bottom line: (1) Mr Quill was finally found (in a Thai Court) to have been framed of the charges against him. And he was acquitted. (2) Mr Lumsden was finally found (in a Thai Court) to have been libeled, and he received damages against an individual (Mr Drummond) and a newspaper (I've forgotten which).

All else is speculation and opinion ... mostly unknowledgeable, and often biased according to one's feelings regarding the specific parties. Personally I am not a fan of closing (much less deleting) threads. But in the case of this long one, I think it might not be a bad idea.

Cheers ...

[Marsilius]

On the contrary, I think that, for most people, more light is being shed on these issues than ever before thanks to this thread.

[globalwanderer]

Kevin

hope the Supreme Court confirms the appeal court soon

I'll second that Kevin, lets hope you hear something soon.

We can all speculate about what happened and who was responsible, and I should think that you probably know who was involved in your case but are unable to prove or publicly speak out about it. One never knows, what goes around comes around, so who can tell what truths might leak out in the future!

Again, no one deserves being set up like you were and I wish you all the best for the future.

Can either of the major players in this dispute who are posting here please post what is your understanding of the facts about the story also posted here describing a man having his fingers cut off and burned to death inside his hotel room?

Can either of the major players in this dispute who are posting here please post what is your understanding of the facts about the story also posted here describing a man having his fingers cut off and burned to death inside his hotel room?

Sigh.... It is not clear that the man's fingers were cut off. Look, when a body is burned badly in a fire fingers and toes are often the first things to get crispy and go.

Doesn't anyone here recognize tabloid journalism when they see it? And just what the heck does any of this have to do with Kevin Quill???
For all we know he could have been set up by some bar boy he fired.

[krobbie]

Can either of the major players in this dispute who are posting here please post what is your understanding of the facts about the story also posted here describing a man having his fingers cut off and burned to death inside his hotel room?

Sigh.... It is not clear that the man's fingers were cut off. Look, when a body is burned badly in a fire fingers and toes are often the first things to get crispy and go.

Doesn't anyone here recognize tabloid journalism when they see it? And just what the heck does any of this have to do with Kevin Quill???
For all we know he could have been set up by some bar boy he fired.

Kenc, you could be right. Kquill could well have been set up by some bar boy he hired ...but I doubt it. What would he gain??

I have been doing some digging on my own and have come up with an article. I think this might clarify how the poor man's fingers came to "magically melt" from his body. It appears the fingers were not just cut off but "hacked" off. That's a quote. And here is the Pattaya Primer for beginners.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... 86343/pg_1 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20031005/ai_n12586343/pg_1)

I am sure this answers some questions aboooot certain things.

K.

...Kenc, you could be right. Kquill could well have been set up by some bar boy he hired ...but I doubt it. What would he gain??....

Revenge. What, you think all Thais are a bunch of nice Bhuddists?


... I think this might clarify how the poor man's fingers came to "magically melt" from his body. It appears the fingers were not just cut off but "hacked" off. That's a quote. ...

Excuse me, a "quote" from who? Who exactly said the fingers were "hacked" off? No attribution. Doesn't anyone get it yet?

AGAIN what the FCUK does all this have to do with Kevin Quill???
This is nothing but Guilt by inference.

"Gee, look at all the naughty things L. has been accused of! Dont you think he could have framed Quill also? After all, Where there's Smoke there's Fire, dontcha know."

We'll give 'im a fair trial, then we'll hang 'im!

Sorry to belabor the point, but has anyone asked themselves what possible reason would there have been to cut off Mr. MacDonald's fingers?

To force him to sign the will? Then how did he sign it with no fingers? Why was the document not spattered with blood?

To torture him? For what reason? Is someone a nasty vicious Queen into S & M?

Maybe so no one would be able to identify the body?
Brilliant. I can hear the conversation now:
Officer Dullard: "We have a body in room 47 that we can't identify. Who was checked into room 47?"
Clerk: "That would be Mr. Macdonald from Scotland, Sir."
Officer Dullard: "Well heck, he's got no fingers so we can't be sure if it's really him. Better send for Sherlock Holmes!"

Maybe the hit men were just too stupid to know there are such things as dental records. And maybe the Gay Mafia Queen of Pattaya hires the Three Stooges to do his dirty work.

Or maybe, using Occam's Razor, the body was simply in such a state after being burned that fingerprints could not be used for identification. And perhaps the story sounds better, more juicy, more exciting, saying the fingers were "hacked off" than merely stating that they were missing.

DELETED

[Marsilius]

"I find this whole post a shocking and complete eye-opener. I was aware of about 5% of this story": quote from John Botting, above.

Exactly the point I was also making above!

[elephantspike]

Okay, closed by popular demand.