Westerners' love affair with Thailand - the end?

It would be easy to merely explain it away as being due to the low season and rainy season blues, but I am not so sure. There are indications of growing disenchantment, even resentment, amongst many of the farangs who make up the Thailand Fan Club. Tourist numbers, amongst Westerners that is, are down. Farang owned businesses whose primary customers are Westerners may be experiencing a downturn. Fewer Westerners seem interested in buying property in Thailand and more and more are posting negative thoughts on discussion forums. More and more people warn of the dangers of buying property and investing heavily in Thailand. Some local webmasters have even mentioned to me of dipping traffic levels, although that is a seasonal thing - it happens every year. Has the tide turned? And no, I donтАЩt think the international market turmoil caused by all of this sub-prime loan debacle has anything to do with it. What do you think? Have you become disenchanted?

[Wesley]

More than ever I am enchanted with Thailand and Pattya in particular, I get in to Bkk fairly often but have little time for a decent time in Pattaya. The best time in my life, that I can remember, was in Pattaya and I will never forget it as long as I live . Disenchanted never...

Wesley

More than ever I am enchanted with Thailand and Pattya in particular, I get in to Bkk fairly often but have little time for a decent time in Pattaya. The best time in my life, that I can remember, was in Pattaya and I will never forget it as long as I live . Disenchanted never...

Wesley
Do you live in Thailand? If not, are you going to move here?
I think Stickman is mostly talking about expats here.

More than ever I am enchanted with Thailand and Pattya in particularDon't you live in Molvania or somewhere like that? I'm not surprised Pattaya is so attractive for you - http://www.molvania.com.au/molvania/

I decided to skip my usual August trip to Bangkok this year and whenever I do this London gets torrential rain, so I will have to resume for everyone else's sake. My Christmas travel is set and includes a little business, skiing in North America and hogmanay in Hong Kong with my nomadic friends many of whom are returning to the East (Bangkok and Hong Kong) next week. I have no immediate plans to swing by Thailand at all and am receiving complaints from Khun X, Khun Y as well as Khun Y not.

I've not gone off the place completely, but I can no longer contemplate a capital investment there, though I think I am likely to spend a significant part of my retirement in LOS when "they" let me have my pension. I think my disillusion is conditioned mostly by instability and the home ownership/visa policies.

I decided to skip my usual August trip to Bangkok this year and whenever I do this London gets torrential rain, so I will have to resume for everyone else's sakeYes, please don't be so selfish, 555 :compress:

I work in Singapore. Thailand is being seen here more and more as unfriendly to foreigners.

I agree with what you said. But I think as long as you are just a tourist and don't have plans to live or work in thailand you (or your dollars) are still most welcome in thailand. Given the current restrictions on visa and ownership one can say that thailand is not longer a welcomming land and has lost a little of the LOS.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

saying this : " And no, I donтАЩt think the international market turmoil caused by all of this sub-prime loan debacle has anything to do with it. "

just wait until it really happens dear. You ain't seen nothing yet.

I agree that Thailand is not nearly as Farang friendly as before the coup, but the silly old men that are responsible for the coup and its policies are all very old and short for this world. I suspect that when the younger generation takes real control Taksin style thinking will win the day. Note that developers in the know are still spending money like drunken sailors on condo development, and planning to sell them to Farangs. Patience is my recommendation, everything will correct its self within a couple of years.

I met my partner in Bali on a return trip from Thailand in 2005 and the only time i have been back since then is when we both stayed for 2 months there last year. i don't know when i will be back but i remain enchanted and occasionally visit the websites to see what's going on. I did once consider investing but the rentals are so reasonable it doesn't seem worthwhile.

[adman5000]

I find the PEOPLE to be as friendly and welcoming as ever. But I have definitely noticed a growing impatience with the political situation and decisions.

In terms of foreign ownership, I agree that given the reasonability of rentals, I would never risk buying there anyway. I have been asked to do so my some Thai friends but I politely declined. But I would not plan on spending more than half my time there, so that is also driven by my situation and desire for flexibility.

I decided to skip my usual August trip to Bangkok this year and whenever I do this London gets rain.

I seem to remember London being wet and cold more or less all year. Floods are an obvious novelty, perhaps a good enough reason to stay at home.
I can't speak for expats in Phutty Yahh, but as a regular tourist, and one who prefers South East Asia to Northern Euro-land for extended summer hols, nothing seems to have changed about Thailand. I did notice that a few old friends were a bit disgruntled when I arrive looking over the top "preppy", but I had to immediately rush off for lunch with Uncle Ziggy, who has been almost completely Americanised, to a point that I am not sure anymore whether I should be calling him aunty Ziggy.
It hardly means the beginning of a peasant revolt. No, its business as usual as far as I could work out.

[Marsilius]

I think the distinction here lies, as someone pointed out, between residents and visitors.

As a regular visitor, I will go on being a tourist for the unique things that Thailand offers - even though for the past few years (going right back to that "social order" campaign of Mr T's government) the official line has been increasingly unwelcoming. But, as a result of that very same changed atmosphere, I would certainly not now invest in Thai property for retirement, which was a definite plan a few years ago. Even if the old atmosphere were to be restored, the way in which it was previously so easily destroyed would give me little confidence in the future.

I imagine that farang residents - who, just a few years ago, must have looked forward to years of both economic prosperity and fun times, must now, at least occasionally, be rather concerned about the prospects for both.

DELETED

[Marsilius]

By the way, if you thought Molvania (above) looked a little less than enticing as a holiday destination, you might try out a vacation in the south-east Asian hotspot Phaic Tan.

The guide book in question shows it's a lot like Thailand, with a suspiciously similar looking royal family and photographs of the gay scene that resembles surprisingly closely that in Bangkok...

http://www.jetlagtravel.com/phaic_tan

Whatever anyone says Thailand or certainly Pattaya is deadly quiet. This is the slowest I have seen it in 4.5 years of living here full time. I was at a party a couple of weeks ago and a business friend of mine who has recently relocated from Pattaya to Hua Hin said HH was dead also.

The Thais really only tolerate us farang for our money, otherwise they would be quite happy being isolated in their xenophobic little world.

I am sure there a few reasons for this, political unrest, terrorism down south, Tsunamis, Tescos, police raids in Pattaya, rainy season, bird flue. But I think you are wrong on the last, you could be just feeling in some small way what older people feel across the world feel, unwanted. Maybe Thailand is changing maybe not, besides there is nothing quite as xenophobic as the Chinese in Asia, except notably in China itself.

Note that developers in the know are still spending money like drunken sailors on condo development, and planning to sell them to Farangs.

This is not quite right. They only plan to sell 49% to non-Thai. This 49% will pay a much higher percentage of the maintenance charges but be allocated the less desirable properties.

Of course those with Thai partners can put everything in their name or you can set up a company whose basis is now under real threat. The market for the farang emptor
needs more than a caveat. Perhaps a medical certificate.

One has to wonder whether those no longer considering buying will cause an upward pressure on rents. Of course you will be able to rent the more desirable 51%.

[Wesley]

More than ever I am enchanted with Thailand and Pattya in particularDon't you live in Molvania or somewhere like that? I'm not surprised Pattaya is so attractive for you - http://www.molvania.com.au/molvania/

I have no idea where this place is you refer to, I am about two and one half hours flight from Thailand. By the time I go around China it takes 4 but its not too far away to visit often If I like. So, if you were talking about you guys that live there I would think it would be more than unwelcome. I tire of porn if I get a steady diet of it. I assume the boy bars would be the same if I lived there.

You keep on badgering the King like in one post you won't have to worry about your time there.

Wes

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Sailing the Syphollos Straits
THE MEDITERRANEANтАЩS FORGOTTEN JEWEL

From the oil-drenched capital of Port Halitosis to the swinging bars and nightclubs of Klamydea (birthplace of the edible condom), this magical region attracts young, sexually-liberated travellers from all over the world.
(then again..this could really be describing Pattaya)


http://www.molvania.com.au/molvania/upcoming.html

I am sure there a few reasons for this, political unrest, terrorism down south, Tsunamis, Tescos, police raids in Pattaya, rainy season, bird flue.
One factor that no-one has so far mentioned is the increasing lawlessness and rise in crimes against the person. Regular visitors routinely read the on-line Thai English-language national and regional (Pattaya Mail) newspapers and read the Thailand blogs. There have been several murders of tourists over the last few years which have been well-publicized here in the UK and a recent TV programme on tourism in SE Asia specifically mentioned these and a general increase in crime as reasons for the drop in tourist numbers from the UK and the EC to Thailand.

I know a couple of previously regular gay visitors to Thailand who have opted for holidays in other parts of the area. Cambodia and Laos seem popular as does the Kerala region of S. India for this very reason. Allied to this is a general sense of unwelcome changes (as one put it to me, Pattaya is now one big never-ending building site and is no longer the eccentric but fun place it used to be).

A steep rise in the cost of general tourism/sight-seeing, hotels, wining and dining and nighttime entertainment in Thailand is also having an effect. Tourism businesses of all kinds have adopted a policy of fleecing their customers for as much money as they can extract and this is killing the goose which lays their golden egg.

Sailing the Syphollos Straits
THE MEDITERRANEANтАЩS FORGOTTEN JEWEL

From the oil-drenched capital of Port Halitosis to the swinging bars and nightclubs of Klamydea (birthplace of the edible condom), this magical region attracts young, sexually-liberated travellers from all over the world.
(then again..this could really be describing Pattaya)

This morning's news is that in the similar next door penninsular/island state the locals have invoked a bizarre fire purification ritual - 60 dead so far.

[Wesley]

More than ever I am enchanted with Thailand and Pattya in particularDon't you live in Molvania or somewhere like that? I'm not surprised Pattaya is so attractive for you - http://www.molvania.com.au/molvania/

Where in the hell do you find this stuff , you must be really bored to find all this stuff on the Internet. To find a country that does not even exist seems impossible but you managed to do it. You have a rancid sense of humor although it can be fun at time.

Wesley

Westerners have had a love affair with Thailand since the 1500's. And Thailand has been open to "foriegners" since even before that. That being said they do seem to have their ups and downs in tolerance levels. And they are very good at not letting the foriegners take over. Personally I think a lot of anti-Thaksin sentiment has been due to his Chinese backround. And his underhanded sale of "Thai Satellites" to Chinese dominated Singapore didn't help his image any.

There have been silly laws on the books for decades in Thailand restricting business and real estate ownership, restricting immigration and visa visits etc. In the past there was quite a laissez-faire (or lazy-fare?) attitude towards enforcement so there were scads of farang jumping thru loopholes. Nowadays the order has come down from on-high that the good times are over and the laws will be strictly enforced. It stands to reason that a lot of "marginal visitors" and riff-raff are bailing out as a result.

From my view the most unfortunate thing about the Coup was the death of "constitutionalism" in Thailand. After 1992 it looked like the endless cycle of military takeovers was over. I guess its not. Thailand really is just a "Bananna Republic without the banannas".

[jolyjacktar]

Here here John B, i cant agree with you more. I think the Thais would like nothing better than to clear the drunken loud mouthed and over money ed Tourists out of the country, but until they find another way of easy money they will just have to put up with us.

Theres a rush coming in October. Cheap flights have almost vanished and some days no flights available from UK.

Theres a rush coming in October. Cheap flights have almost vanished and some days no flights available from UK.And there's a very simple reason for that - Australian (and closet Australian aka. Nw Zlnd) punters returning via SE Asia from the Rugby World Cup

Theres a rush coming in October. Cheap flights have almost vanished and some days no flights available from UK.And there's a very simple reason for that - Australian (and closet Australian aka. Nw Zlnd) punters returning via SE Asia from the Rugby World Cup

Hmm yes good point. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would sit on an aeroplane for that long just to watch a rugby match in Nice, lets hope france wins that one, they will be in droves, a lot are coming back to Hong-Kong full stop. Not quite Phutty Yah Ha is it? Lets hope South Africa or New-Zealand win, give it a nice exotic touch.

Looks like builders rubble they are lying on, or Brighton "beach" UK.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1281/1254237428_cc0a48b606.jpg

HISTORY of Molvania

Although Slavic tribes probably occupied what is now Molvania in the 5th century, the first recorded reference to the country came in AD721 when the Prince of Molvanskia, Nikod I, declared himself lord of an empire taking in not only his own country, but Prussia, Germany and much of Scandinavia. It was an ambitious claim from a ruler who had just turned 12 years old and his expansionist reign lasted barely a few weeks.
The Middle Ages saw Molvania invaded by numerous armies, including the Goths, Tatars, Turks, Huns, Balts, Lombards and even a surprisingly militant band of Spanish nuns, before MolvaniaтАЩs first king and patron saint Fyodor I, set about unifying his country by killing off as many of its citizens as he could. Those not murdered or imprisoned were forced into teaching. The empire converted to Christianity with the arrival of the missionary St Parthag in AD863 but reverted to paganism as soon as he left the following year. During the Dark Ages Molvania enjoyed a short period as a Muslim country, but the KoranтАЩs strict teachings against drinking, violence and extra-marital sex never caught on with the local population. Molvania experienced a brief flowering of Renaissance culture, with some historians putting the actual period down to about three weeks towards the end of 1503. But there is certainly evidence of a renewed interest in art and culture beyond this time and during the 1520s one of EuropeтАЩs most enlightened universities was built in the countryтАЩs north at Motensparg, which offered courses in ancient Greek and Latin as well as wrestling scholarships. In 1541 a peasant army attempted to turn on the landowners but the uprising was suppressed and the leader Gyidor Dvokic burned alive on a red-hot iron spike, giving rise to the modern Molvanian witticism тАШeich zdern clakka yastenhach!тАЩ (literally тАШmy rectum feels as if a great heat is being appliedтАЩ). During this time the country consisted of numerous semi-independent principalities and city-states preoccupied with internal quarrels. In 1570 an attempt was made to bring these separate regions together but no-one could agree on a place to hold the meeting and the country was eventually plunged into the Twenty Years War, a conflict that actually ran for only six months. The 17th century saw Molvania divided into various fiefdoms, each under the control of a despotic ruler who would ruthlessly crush the slightest sign of unrest; this was considered one of the countryтАЩs most enlightened periods.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

pebbly beach yes but what fun it was in the past ..(before the poofs discovered it)..

I spent too many long weekends in Brighton at the best gay bars in the world..until gay became in.

And the restaurant run by Gerald Campion ,the actor who played Billy Bunter..where the wonderful actor Patrick Macnee ( The Avengers) would always give a cheery wave from his favorite table..

I was once mistaken for a pop star ( Pat Boone) by a 19 year old youth..what a fab place it was then..sadly overrun by boring queens now..just like Pattaya

terrible place to wake up with a hangover though..that beach, or under the pier.

[Aunty]

Oh and Lunchtime, what were the parties like that HRH used to throw at the Pavillion? Were they really as good as they were claimed to be?

pebbly beach yes but what fun it was in the past ..(before the poofs discovered it)..
.

Yes I also got the impression it was a has been, even during the hey day of its resurrection in the late 90's. Sad, sad places English sea-side towns. Quintessentially English. The pier, well what can one say, I am chortling as I remember, yes I suppose you can still have a gay old time on it or under it, the world is your periwinkle and all that.
Gibraltar anyone?

... English sea-side towns. Quintessentially English.Funny, that

[Aunty]

pebbly beach yes but what fun it was in the past ..(before the poofs discovered it)..
.

Yes I also got the impression it was a has been, even during the hey day of its resurrection in the late 90's. Sad, sad places English sea-side towns. Quintessentially English. The pier, well what can one say, I am chortling as I remember, yes I suppose you can still have a gay old time on it or under it, the world is your periwinkle and all that.
Gibraltar anyone?

I quite like, Bournemouth, and St Ives for a visit. Funnily enough it was in Brighton in the 80's that I first discovered something that has since turned into a life long collecting passion for me! But you are right. I wouldn't want to live there. I imagine Brighton is now a town full of gays like "Jeremy and Ian", who eat quiche and drink chardonnay, collect glass, are hip and with it and have little gold earrings, get dressed up in their leathers to go to very cool parties with their gay friends on Saturday night where there aren't any women at all! So there!

Real beaches are sandy, and go for miles.

[Aunty]

Anyway to try and get this thread back on topic, I see that Thailand is currently undertaking a major international advertising campaign to try and bring tourists' back to Thailand, so it looks like the current exceptionally quite off season is effecting more than just the gay market and/or Pattaya. I wonder if numbers from other Asian markets especially China and Japan are down as well, or whether the current slump is just effecting tourists from Falangastan?

Has anyone noticed whether hotel/bar/off-fees and other prices have come down yet to match the lessened demand?

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

yes I have always had fun in Bournemouth...especially on that beautiful beach which is partly nude ( or was) and before the general public realized that lurkers like moi were hovering.

I was once the flavor of the weekend there when I seemed to be the only new trade in town..one lad picked me up and then his boyfriend insisted on having me the next night..the same thing happened the following weekend with a different couple.

Gay clubs in large provincial UK towns were always fun..full of naive cuties just waiting for lechers to swoop in.

As for HRH's parties at the Pavilion.legend had it they were OTT !..but commoners like me had to just watch from the streets and allow the invited to rattle their jewelery at us upon arrival.

Mind you-I was once invited to the famous Robin Maugham's house in Brighton for a party only to discover I was apparently a birthday present for Sir Laurence Olivier..but he had a terrible stand-up fight with his lover Danny Kaye which put the mockers on that episode. I can't remember where I ended up but they gave me the train fare back to London.

[Dboy]

Has anyone noticed whether hotel/bar/off-fees and other prices have come down yet to match the lessened demand?

Hehe, would not surprise me if they RAISE prices in this case.

I think the Thai's are mainly perplexed by us more than anything else, and they have conflicted opinions of us. Lot of reasons for that. And you really can't blame them for wanting to protect their culture and heritage. If I were them, and knowing what I know about the West, I would be MUCH harsher on policies than they are. For instance, I would not allow foreign missionaries in the country. Buddhists are very tolerant, which I appreciate, but missionaries are nothing more than cultural terrorists whos job is to destroy native culture and replace it with western monotheism...that's just one example. The reason we like Thailand is because it's *different*, but Westerners just can't help it but to take over charming foreign countries and make them into an image of Western values/society, or if that fails, drop bombs on them until they submit. The Thai's are much more open to foreign influence than they should be (in my opinion). It's for that reason that I tend to forgive their idiosyncrasies.

In case anyone is offended by my opinion on missionaries, I can offer PROOF right here in Thailand. Do some research into the Hill Tribes (Chiang Rai) and look at what the end result of christian missionary work is up there. You end up with people who will not ever be able to assimilate into Thailand, nor with their original homeland (Burma). So their only real option is to immigrate to the US or elsewhere. In the end, this will completely destroy hill tribe culture. Yes I am aware of the issues with the Thai govt and the hill tribes, but that is not a foreign influence.

Dboy