Constitution Referendum

[Wesley]

Is this a vote for or against the coup or is it a real change in Thai Law and Constitution?

Is this a vote for or against the coop or is it a real change in Thai Law and Constitution?

Do you mean coop, or coup, or coupe or co-op?

Ok, just having fun with you Wes :blackeye:

There was a good spread in the Bangkok Post a week ago comparing the proposed constitution with the '97 charter. I tried to go thru it but after a while I got tired and figured it didn't matter because a) I have no say in the matter and b) even if it passes there will probably be another coup in 5 years and another new constitution.

Boyfriend says he's voting NO. I would guess that means all the people around him are also voting NO.
Not a good sign from the countryside.

[Wesley]

I was caught up in the chicken coop I guess, My typing sucks and always has. Thanks for the spelling bee. I hear Thaskin and this are connected. A vote against the constitution is a vote against the Coup and in favor of Thaskin who I am told is still quite popular in the Villages. lets see what spell check misses this time. too bad the damn think can't read my mind. Oh My, that's another story all its own Imagine being caught up In my mind for a day or two. God I hate it in here myself at times.

Wesley

The new constitution will be approved. Definitely.

The Thai people appear to be very politically passive and are ready to agree to anything to move towards more stability.

Both choices are bad. Yes or No. Reminds me of most US elections!

[Wesley]

Both choices are bad. Yes or No. Reminds me of most US elections!

Well you definitely got that part of it right, damned if you do damned if you don't

Is this a vote for or against the coop or is it a real change in Thai Law and Constitution?


Dear Wes,

Tam has also been given a yellow book regards the new constitution, as well as orders to vote. [what it means, does, the purpose of etc etc. and the reasons why they did what they did ]

His answer is, do you really believe they are interested in what the working class farmer either thinks about it or that their opinions will be listened to!

If its a win for them,[ the junta] they'll be having parades about what great guys they are standing up for the people, if they lose it will be dismissed as an ignorant electorate that doesn't know whats good for it!!

I am a bit of a cynic these days.

It is passing and passing big.
Mainly by the overwhelming support in the South, which is really interesting:

http://202.60.199.51/en/?zone=0

Another point of opinion. I don't know whether this is a fair election or not, but there is no way this was going to be defeated either way. Hows that for cynicism?

BTW, if I was a Thai, I would have voted no because a yes vote is saying the coup government is legitimate.
However, as a farang who just wants stability and has no illusions that Thailand is going to be a real democracy anyway, I am happy the yes vote will win.

My Thai friend says the the government counted the ballots "last week". It was his way of saying no matter, it was/will be approved. Most of the Thai people live in village farms. Most were for Thaskin. Most still support him. My friend feels that if they voted, the new constitution would fail IF the 97 constitution would be the winner with a NO vote. But since the MILITARY would pick which version if a no vote and could amend it anyway they choose....it does not matter. The military is back in power either way.....seems a little bit like Burma,,,still working towards a democratic constitution.

Is this a vote for or against the coop or is it a real change in Thai Law and Constitution?


Tam has also been given a yellow book regards the new constitution, as well as orders to vote. [what it means, does, the purpose of etc etc. and the reasons why they did what they did ]

His answer is, do you really believe they are interested in what the working class farmer either thinks about it or that their opinions will be listened to!

If its a win for them,[ the junta] they'll be having parades about what great guys they are standing up for the people, if they lose it will be dismissed as an ignorant electorate that doesn't know whats good for it!!

I am a bit of a cynic these days.

Supervisor went voting. He assembled all the invited some family members together wend out for some time. Three hours later there came back, voting wasn't a topic a more but they have purchased some equipment the wanted since long time. The price was ridiculously low since the stuff has been purchased ( from a well known supporter of a former politician and present British league football club owner ) before voting.

Supervisor and dad where telling me since the vote was somewhat secret, buying the new equipment was a good deal. I was surprised since I know there opposition to the seller’s opinions but both of them couldn’t resist the deal.

Further informations that the majority of Isaan farmers where against the new constitution didn’t came as a surprise for me. As usually I don’t comment on Thai politics; I found out “due it is specific complexity, only Thai people are able understand all of it” and went perfectly well with this.

In order to celebrate the event I opened two left bottles of beer Lao which we emptied jointly together. Dad’s smiles went all over; he commented “beer from old part of good Siam” and called me khon nam jai. Supervisor was rolling on the floor and laughing. Without saying a word, my political message has been spread.

Maybe I am getting cynical too.

.... I'm only joking, but it does say that:

"Its also says the new charter has many other clauses, like those recognising minority rights, which are more liberal than before."

Erm interesting.

.... I'm only joking, but it does say that:

"Its also says the new charter has many other clauses, like those recognising minority rights, which are more liberal than before."

Erm interesting.


What's the name of the author..................Pinnocchio??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 953456.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6953456.stm)

I know what you mean though KQUILL - time will tell!

[globalwanderer]

round one over....

round 2 in December!

Is voting in Thailand compulsory for all persons 18+....it is compulsory in Australia, Democracy at it's best, we cant even elect 'not to vote!'

Is voting in Thailand compulsory for all persons 18+....it is compulsory in Australia, Democracy at it's best, we cant even elect 'not to vote!'

Like Australia, In Thailand people have to go to the ballots. It’s actually the same as in
Egypt, Albania, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil (for 18-70 y/o) Chile, Costa Rica, Congo, Dominican Republic, Greece, Honduras, Lebanon (males), Libya, Luxembourg, Mexico, Nauru, Austria (presidential elections), Panama, Paraguay (up to 60 y/o), Singapore, Switzerland (Canton Schaffhausen only), and Uruguay.

In Thailand voting is secret. If someone doesn’t like to choose any of the selection, it’s no problem to choose “void” by crossing all or one. I think that’s reasonable and democratic.

Supervisor assured me that the voting went on correctly, without any pressure and he would very surprised about anything different. And there are some who are controlling that every voter did give his vote discretely and the process will be handled correctly. The counting will take place later openly too. I have been at voting centres before and could not report any irregularity. Nevertheless, vote buying isn't uncommon but this cannot really be controlled by the "buyer". On the other hand, Thailand and secrets are two terms which are totally incompatible.

Traditionally the inhabitants of Bangkok and close surroundings (i.e. Nonthaburi, Chonburi) are voting more liberal, while the Isaan is clearly conservative territory and all south of Bangkok is mixed.

Voting in details: The Nation: http://202.60.199.51/en/

[globalwanderer]

if the nation are right not the endorsement the military were hoping for

if the nation are right not the endorsement the military were hoping forLess than 60% certainly isn't a ringing endorsement

[llz]

Less than 60% certainly isn't a ringing endorsement
We are now at 57/41 (invalid : 2) and what is very worrying is the overwhelming 'no' Northeast has given to the Draft (62/36); vote-buying or Toxin nostalgy I do not know, but the country seems once again to be very divided.
Provisional results by region at New Charter results (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/20/headlines/headlines_30045716.php)

[Wesley]

what is the next step if its invalid, back to the polls or a former Charter.

Wesley

Imagine the result without all the state pressure and interference.

Thaksin must be laughing his balls off.

[globalwanderer]

Analysts said investors would also be relieved there had been no major upset, although the smaller-than-expected margin of victory for the "Yes" camp suggested the election would be closely fought, messy -- and dirty.

"This is telling the junta that they are going to have trouble at an election and that could mean all kinds of attempts to influence the result -- and that's worrying," Bangkok-based political analyst Chris Baker said.


CNN

[Hmmm]

The referendum was supposed to unify and restore stability to Thailand. Instead it has statistically demonstrated the huge gulf between those in the Northeast/North and the Central/South.

[Bob]

Imagine the result without all the state pressure and interference.

Oogle, you've got it right.
The Junta and the current government did everything it could to scare the shit out anyone who might want to oppose the new charter - prohibiting campaigns against it, prohibiting the printing or dissemination of materials against the charter, and saying/suggesting that encouraging anyone not to vote was a crime, and saying/suggesting that encouraging anyone to vote "no" might be a crime.

This wasn't a fair election and anyone who has read any of the Thai newspapers for the last month or two would know that.
Yet, it really doesn't matter....I think this is the 10th Constitution since 1932 and the 11th (following the next coup) is probably not too far down the line.

Oh come on. A win is a win. And 57% is pretty good (by US standards at least).
I tired to figure out the differences between this "charter" and the '97 one but it was too much for my non-legal mind to parse. The only thing that stood out was the Senate is supposed to be 100% elected instead of part elected and part appointed (which throws power to the Palace). It seems to be more a "tweaking" of the '97 charter than a wholesale change.
Now comes the elections in Dec. That's where the real action is going to be. This was just a prelude.

BTW, calling this a referendum about the coup is a bit simplistic.
I have been vehemently against the coup but supportive of the new charter as a way to move on and get back to Democracy.
Alas, I have no say in the matter.
I'll just have to stick to choosing a US President and mind my own business..... :blackeye:

Imagine the result without all the state pressure and interference.

Thaksin must be laughing his balls off.

What do you take the Thai people for? Children? Morons?

The vote is secret, and people vote for whom and for what they want to. "Interference" and "pressure" my ass.

lol - you dont watch Thai TV much then.

Criticism of the new constitution was forbidden and the NO campaigners were harrassed and rallies banned etc from start to finish. Some even went to jail. Theres even rumours of YES vote buying (of course totally scurrilous lies) and it was fun watching the huge queues of soldiers ( very cute too ) waiting to cast their votes completely voluntarily.

[globalwanderer]

The government prohibited campaigns against it.
Police confiscated leaflets.

Neither the PM or the Generals would not give a clear answer as to what they would adopt if the Constitution was rejected.

How can it be fair if you don't no what 'NO' will result in.
Therefore a lot of people voted for it not because they agreed with it (and probably without reading and understanding it), but because they saw voting yes as the only way of moving to elections and this being preferable to a constitution amended by the Generals.

And it was not only the Thaksin clique who were arguing against it!

How can this be free and fair

Is voting in Thailand compulsory for all persons 18+....it is compulsory in Australia, Democracy at it's best, we cant even elect 'not to vote!'


Interesting option:

Voters find new way to opt out

With ballots in Sunday's referendum limiting their choice to ''Yes'' or ''No'' on the draft charter, 79 voters pioneered a third option _ they simply returned the ballot paper to poll staff.

Their action, not regarded as a violation of the Referendum Act, stunned polling booth staff who could do nothing. They put the ballots in a new category, marked ''returned''.

''This phenomenon, I think, is very creative. It's a new way to fight against state power,'' said Chaiwat Satha-anand, a political science lecturer at Thammasat University .

They were sending a message to the government and the Council for National Security (CNS) that they needed more options than just accepting or rejecting the constitution, he said.


Mr Chaiwat said the action could be a ''symbolic protest'' in the current political turmoil, in which many people want to express disapproval of the referendum process sponsored by the coup-makers and the military-installed interim government.

''But, this is a clever and interesting non-violent action,'' he said.

Krit Urwongse, Election Commission deputy director responsible for the referendum, admitted the number of ''returned'' ballots was significant and said the EC would hold a meeting soon to discuss the implications.

However, he said, legally the returned ballots were no different than voided ballots.

''I think those voters didn't really know whether they liked or disliked the new draft,'' Mr Krit said. ''Some didn't know what to do with the new ballots because they could not read.''

The referendum ballots were different from those used in past general elections because they had no numbers, only words accepting or rejecting the charter.

So some voters just signed their names to receive the ballots and then returned them to referendum staff, he said.

The government and the CNS reportedly opted for only two choices on the ballot because they feared it would affect the legitimacy of the draft charter if too many people checked ''no-vote'' boxes.

Source: bangkokpost.net/News/21Aug2007_news02.php

Their action, not regarded as a violation of the Referendum Act, stunned polling booth staff who could do nothing.
C'mon now. With no independent observers, or probably no witnesses at all, they could have simply put the ballot aside for the moment, then later, in complete privacy, marked the ballot and slipped it in a ballot box. This is Amazing Thailand, after all...

Their action, not regarded as a violation of the Referendum Act, stunned polling booth staff who could do nothing.
C'mon now. With no independent observers, or probably no witnesses at all, they could have simply put the ballot aside for the moment, then later, in complete privacy, marked the ballot and slipped it in a ballot box. This is Amazing Thailand, after all...

I only can report about what I have noticed by myself or I’ve learned from people I can trust.

All the voting takes place in openly viewed rooms with several people around at any time.

For counting the votes there all wall boards with list, there at least four people are around. One takes the ballot paper from it’s collecting box, makes a mark his counting list, open it, read it, and hand and it over to the next person who is calling the vote to a third person who makes a clearly visible a mark at the wall board. The reader takes the ballot paper to a pile of others close by. If there is no ballot paper left, the counting starts?

The figures must match otherwise the whole procedure starts again. If there is no difference in figures any more, some people sign a form with the results. The head will call ballot centre and report the results. This entire process takes place in public and anybody is allowed to attend.

All ballot papers including a copy of the signed result sheet are to be sealed and handed over to the police.

This is what I have seen with my own eyes in Bangkok, in Nan and in an Udon Thani district.

Thai people are not stupid. They usually know exactly what they do and who to handle certain situations. And there are always a view around who take there responsibilities very seriously.

Cheating starts before. It is as illegal as common (especially in poor Isaan areas), that some people with influence pay family heads sometimes substantial amounts of cash or arranging other favours (i.e. credits, leases) in order to instruct the family head - and therefore of all loyal family members how to vote. The amount “invested” is pending on size and influence.

This usually works perfectly well since Thai people are pretty honest and keep there promises. The now banned TRT was notorious for this kind of practice. And believe me, an extra 1000 TBT in cash is a lot of money to many in Isaan.

A former Thai politician made an extra perversion out of it: He promised (and introduces later) a scheme where central government is paying a lump sum every year to any community “in order to improve the local infrastructure” by themselves. The first amounts where invested to set up mobile phone transmission stations so all villagers where able to communicate by mobile phone. Of course, only the to this politician closely related AIS systems where set up. And soon after the first sales people came and traded cheap mobile phones and subscriptions to AIS services. Of course, prepaid sim-cards or options weren’t available. That's the ways to push people heavily in debts, all the bloomingly related additional business promises fails.

There are plent more, like housing schemes and more where people have been tricked into or the rice pool. But I guess that’s not different to other countries....

This usually works perfectly well since Thai people are pretty honest and keep there promises. The now banned TRT was notorious for this kind of practice.
It's nice to know there is some transparency in the actual voting process, but you have to appreciate the contrast between honesty and ethics. Honest enough to carry out the promises with somewhat unethical (is vote buying illegal in Thailand?) vote-buying.

This usually works perfectly well since Thai people are pretty honest and keep there promises. The now banned TRT was notorious for this kind of practice.
It's nice to know there is some transparency in the actual voting process, but you have to appreciate the contrast between honesty and ethics. Honest enough to carry out the promises with somewhat unethical (is vote buying illegal in Thailand?) vote-buying.

There is some transparency for sure. Just look at the long faces of some junta members. They didn't expect about a 70 - 80 percent "yes" but anything like this recent result.

In Thailand buying votes is absolutely illegal and a criminal offence which will lead to severe punishment to the buyer.

Like gambling, which is also illegal but still popular …

... minus the knee-jerk reactions so beloved of many members, turn to this week's Economist magazine's coverage of the referendum. Warning: the article contains some long words - http://www.economist.com/world/asia/dis ... id=9687312 (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9687312)

For those who have difficulty accessing the site, here's a summary. 58% of the eligible population voted and of those 57% voted in favour of the Constitution. Some of those claiming to vote in favour said they voted "yes" merely to hasten the next phase - the general election - rather than having any belief in the virtues of the Constitution itself. That is, they were voting to end the military dictatorship. Many ex-TRT members have joined a new party, the PPP, whose leader has (surprise, surprise) now been charged over corruption allegations from the distant past. Finally, even in the notoriously unreliable world of Asian economic statistics, which are usually an arm of government propaganda, the Thai economy slowed to 4% growth when the generals took over and hasn't improved. Oh, and the Economist doesn't mince any words about who was behind the coup, describing it as the "royalist-military elite"

... minus the knee-jerk reactions so beloved of many members, turn to this week's Economist magazine's coverage of the referendum. Warning: the article contains some long words - http://www.economist.com/world/asia/dis ... id=9687312 (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9687312)

For those who have difficulty accessing the site, here's a summary. 58% of the eligible population voted and of those 57% voted in favour of the Constitution. Some of those claiming to vote in favour said they voted "yes" merely to hasten the next phase - the general election - rather than having any belief in the virtues of the Constitution itself. That is, they were voting to end the military dictatorship. Many ex-TRT members have joined a new party, the PPP, whose leader has (surprise, surprise) now been charged over corruption allegations from the distant past. Finally, even in the notoriously unreliable world of Asian economic statistics, which are usually an arm of government propaganda, the Thai economy slowed to 4% growth when the generals took over and hasn't improved. Oh, and the Economist doesn't mince any words about who was behind the coup, describing it as the "royalist-military elite"

Well, looks like political parties are usually not established for democracy but for excuses, and blaming the voters for there own faults.

blaming the voters for there own faults.Or possibly even their own faults

... minus the knee-jerk reactions so beloved of many members, turn to this week's Economist magazine's coverage of the referendum. Warning: the article contains some long words - http://www.economist.com/world/asia/dis ... id=9687312 (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9687312)

For those who have difficulty accessing the site, here's a summary. 58% of the eligible population voted and of those 57% voted in favour of the Constitution. Some of those claiming to vote in favour said they voted "yes" merely to hasten the next phase - the general election - rather than having any belief in the virtues of the Constitution itself. That is, they were voting to end the military dictatorship. Many ex-TRT members have joined a new party, the PPP, whose leader has (surprise, surprise) now been charged over corruption allegations from the distant past. Finally, even in the notoriously unreliable world of Asian economic statistics, which are usually an arm of government propaganda, the Thai economy slowed to 4% growth when the generals took over and hasn't improved. Oh, and the Economist doesn't mince any words about who was behind the coup, describing it as the "royalist-military elite"

Bwa ha ha ha Bwaaa ha ha ha, or how ever it goes, The Economist! You mean that sad rag that has supported Bush Blair and Thaksin through out? It used to be a reasonable read, oh, lets say in the late eighties, when I was using it to swot fellow boys buttocks, now it is drivel, the correspondents rude, up their own arse-holes, their silly opinionated biased crap even watered down especially to break into the American market. They mistakenly think (might have something to do with the fact they are a British bog wipe) they are being read by the leaders dealers shakers and makers of the day so are particularly sycophantic........Dear Economist are you still wondering what happened to all those weapons of mass destruction? Bwa ha ha ha ha.

Bwa ha ha ha ha.I see someone has let the children out to play