Prostitution - a philosophical point of view

Paying for sex has lost its stigma, esp. in the gay community. In many ways, the increasing acceptability of prostitution here in Thailand reflects our sacrifice of morality and equality on the altar of capitalist ethics. Sex has been resolutely commodified, and it is hard to argue against anything if you are making money, since the making of money has become an acceptable moral justification in itself.

The sudden increase in men paying for sex is reflected in, and in many ways facilitated by, our wider public culture. It's as if those who buy and sell sex are the best at it - as if sex was nothing to do with intimacy, emotion, or a physical connection between people. What defines good sex is that money has changed hands.

Two examples:

1. A man who claims to have slept with 1,000 male prostitutes says things like: "What I hate with men generally is the intimacy".

2. Another man said this week: "I think sex on a first date is fine as long as you get a receipt".

Now, do you agree with these statements? If you are paying for sex, what is your moral justification?

Professor

[allieb]

All sex costs money in one way or another and often the most expensive or unsatisfactory sex is free sex. Better to take exactly what you want off the shelf and pay the price tag.

All sex costs money in one way or another and often the most expensive or unsatisfactory sex is free sex. Better to take exactly what you want off the shelf and pay the price tag.

Do you want to imply that your assertion - "all sex costs money" - also applies to a lifelong partnership? In what way?

How do you justify your attitude to take "what you want off the shelf and pay the price tag" under a moral analysis? I do not evaluate you personally, I am just curious to get a valid moral justification for your approach.

Prof.

[PinkSilom]

'If you are paying for sex, what is your moral justification?'

Your question falls at the first hurdle, because you presume that moral justification is required. Clearly, philosophy is not one of your specialised subjects professor.

[Aunty]

'If you are paying for sex, what is your moral justification?'

Your question falls at the first hurdle, because you presume that moral justification is required. Clearly, philosophy is not one of your specialised subjects professor.

LMAO! :cheers:

'If you are paying for sex, what is your moral justification?'

Your question falls at the first hurdle, because you presume that moral justification is required. Clearly, philosophy is not one of your specialised subjects professor.

You seem to have flunked philosophy in school, dear PinkSilom:

Please deal with the definition of "morality":

"concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct;
ethical motive: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong"

(source: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)

We are talking here about an ethical issue which is unquestionably approachable via standard concepts of morality. For further reading material which you might find illustrative, just send me a private message.

Would you now mind to answer the question posed rather than playing the clown?

That paying for sex is loosing its stigma depends on where you are. When in Thailand, I enjoy paying for sex - not just the act, but as wx40afp calls it - the "hunting". Yet, it has never occured to me to pay for sex in my home country - because it is less acceptable. I'm no historian, but my understanding is that prostitution has historically been acceptable in Thailand for a long long time. In Thailand, people of all ages - and from all walks of life pay for it. You suggest that morality is being sacrificed, but surely morality is not a constant. Ideas of what is right and wrong vary according to time and place. Afterall, I was brought up to believe all homosexuality is evil. I guess your idea of moral sex is that it exists within a relationship? I'm no Philospher - but this seems a very Christian/Hetrosexual perspective. For me at least, (and I think I am fairly typical in this) sex lost its intimacy long before I ever paid a prostitute. Random encounters, no strings meets, one night stands all make up a large part of the broader "gay scene". I actually do think good sex does have very little do with intimacy. The best sex I've had, has rarely been with long term partners.

I think you underestimate the importance of making money. Its not about moral justification, its a basic human need. I have a good friend in BKK who sells his ass to support his family. My family would be out on the streets long before I came close to selling my ass. I consider him to be a much better person then me.

[jinks]

(source: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)



Hi Prof, A REAL TROLL would quote this off the top of ones head.

[PinkSilom]

'Would you now mind to answer the question ...'

The verb 'mind' is followed by gerund not infinitive. Clearly, English is not one of your specialised subjects professor. However, I now understand how President George W. Bush received a bachelor's degree from Yale University. I doubt either of you would have managed a hallowed third from a British university. May I suggest the intellectual level here on the Sawatdee Forum is stretching you too far. Perhaps you would be more comfortable just looking at the naked men on Ting & Tong.

If you are paying for sex, what is your moral justification?"moral justification? Oh dear, we are on a hoity-toity plane. If we're talking morality, perhaps we should ask Our Resident Bodhisattva George who thinks he can be a devout Buddhist and a promiscuous homosexual at the same time. Since I think of sex as purely for pleasure, the analogy is like buying a ticket to go on the hurdy-gurdy at the fairground. For sex, I buy the time of a boy (or two). Same, same. Arguably I'm not buying sex, or for his time - I'm paying for him to go away afterwards.

I can, of course, also go and play on the swings in the local park for free. So, analogously, I can pop down to Silom Complex and find some office worker in the lavatories who prefers a non-Thai because he then doesn't have to work out all the social nuances of going with a fellow Thai - and chances are he won't want money either

'Would you now mind to answer the question ...'

The verb 'mind' is followed by gerund not infinitive. Clearly, English is not one of your specialised subjects professor. However, I now understand how President George W. Bush received a bachelor's degree from Yale University. I doubt either of you would have managed a hallowed third from a British university. May I suggest the intellectual level here on the Sawatdee Forum is stretching you too far. Perhaps you would be more comfortable just looking at the naked men on Ting & Tong.

I have never suggested that English is my mother tongue. It is not. But thanks for your considerate proof-reading anyway.

Regarding the issue of my original posting, you seem to have nothing to contribute, PinkSilom, which is actually fine with me. I am just a little concerned about your blatant inability to behave like a civilized human being towards others. I had some students who thought they were funny when they kept making silly jokes at other people┬┤s expense. Those were the ones who ultimately failed in the exams, and in real life as well. Hope you can manage to escape the same fate.

Arguably I'm not buying sex, or for his time - I'm paying for him to go away afterwardsCome now, dear. Surely you don't need to pay anyone to leave your company. You have more trouble getting people to stick around, don't you?Hence the word "arguably". Whether people stick around, or (worse) like me, is something I'm simply not concerned about. They can make their choices, I'll make mine - Miss Smelly to {Ignore}

I had some students who thought they were funny when they kept making silly jokes at other people┬┤s expense. Those were the ones who ultimately failed in the exams, and in real life as wellFortunately I got a First while making endlessly silly jokes at other people's expense. I'm intrigued, however. How (and indeed why) did our Professor maintain contact with these individuals, to the extent that he can assert that they failed "in real life as well"? For most university teachers, contact with most students ends when they leave. Or is our Professor perhaps Dr Sillery who seemed to know where all of his students ended up in later life? And then there's the use of the phrase "real" life. Is university life somehow "unreal"? If so, in what sense? Is our Professor tainted by this, so that his own grasp of reality is somewhat tenuous? Then, I wonder, to what extent and by whose standards did they fail? Did they, perhaps, end up hopeless alcoholics or wife-beaters, or even ... living as down-and-out ex-pats in Jomtien?

That paying for sex is loosing its stigma depends on where you are. When in Thailand, I enjoy paying for sex - not just the act, but as wx40afp calls it - the "hunting". Yet, it has never occured to me to pay for sex in my home country - because it is less acceptable. I'm no historian, but my understanding is that prostitution has historically been acceptable in Thailand for a long long time. In Thailand, people of all ages - and from all walks of life pay for it. You suggest that morality is being sacrificed, but surely morality is not a constant. Ideas of what is right and wrong vary according to time and place. Afterall, I was brought up to believe all homosexuality is evil. I guess your idea of moral sex is that it exists within a relationship? I'm no Philospher - but this seems a very Christian/Hetrosexual perspective. For me at least, (and I think I am fairly typical in this) sex lost its intimacy long before I ever paid a prostitute. Random encounters, no strings meets, one night stands all make up a large part of the broader "gay scene". I actually do think good sex does have very little do with intimacy. The best sex I've had, has rarely been with long term partners.

I think you underestimate the importance of making money. Its not about moral justification, its a basic human need. I have a good friend in BKK who sells his ass to support his family. My family would be out on the streets long before I came close to selling my ass. I consider him to be a much better person then me.

Dear pepperami:

Thank you for your interesting and sincere response.

You have raised some arguable points which I would like to refer to:

1. You say you enjoy paying for sex, basically because of the "hunting" which is involved (when you are in Thailand).

I am curious: Is there really something what you can call a "hunt" when you go and take home a male prostitute (aka money boy) for sex? As far as I know, almost all male prostitutes in Thailand will be happy to exchange their body (and time) for money for almost all potential customers. Right? So, where is the element here in Thailand which would constitute a "hunt"? Whether you go to a beer bar, a go-go bar, whether you pick up a freelancer in the city or elsewhere - in most cases, the prostitute will be eager to "sign the contract", right? Thus, there seems to be no "hunting" necessary at all, at least in the scenario which I have just described. To me, a "hunt" would include an element of uncertainty which you do not find in all the commercial sex venues in Thailand.

Please accept the following comparison: In South Africa, there used to be certain game farms where you could hunt lions, among other animals. The lions were all tame, and just released from their hut when the gun-toting customer was ready for the so called "hunt". This outrageous performance was called "canned hunt" and made sure that the hunter got the "trophy" he had paid for in advance. Now, isn┬┤t the "canned hunt" comparable - in a figurative sense - with your "hunt" of male prostitutes in Thailand?

2. You are right, morality as a concept cannot be seen as a "constant", it has changed over the centuries. However, the question remains, how is the common practise to pay money in exchange for sexual activity to be morally assessed today? We have to keep in mind the following: what are the implications for society in general if prostitution is so readily available almost at each corner in this beautiful country, Thailand?

3. You assume that my moral views are based on the Christian/Heterosexual perspective. Let me ask you this: Do you think that "moral sex" - as you put it - can only exist in a heterosexual relationship? I don┬┤t think so!

4. I am glad that you have also mentioned the term "Christianity" - does moral behavior in general depend on your faith? What do you think?

5. May I ask you another question: Have you ever felt real love for a human being? If so, did sex lost its intimacy with your loved one at one point of time? If the answer is "yes", let me assert that there might have been no real love in this case on your side.

6. Sure, I realize why prostitutes in Thailand sell their body. The moral question has to be answered by the customer in the first place!

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I am looking forward to your response!

Prof.

[Aunty]

DAMN!!!!! The secret is out!

[Wesley]

In a Judaic-Christian moral context your thoughts would be worthy of reelection but since most of us have decided to both pay for sex reject the morality of doing so in the Christian ethical standards of the West or of the more fundamental contest of the Islam state, it seems no one here obviously gives a shit if it is wrong they have done and will do it again thus opening up a whole new world of value systems contrary to the ones we were taught. That make me a part of the opposition to moral standards in general and those who purport to know what is right or wrong in this remains relevant and up to ones own conscience; the Killing LMTU bf rejects all learned or proposed values even put on life its self.


Wesley

[allieb]

All sex costs money in one way or another and often the most expensive or unsatisfactory sex is free sex. Better to take exactly what you want off the shelf and pay the price tag.

Do you want to imply that your assertion - "all sex costs money" - also applies to a lifelong partnership? In what way?

How do you justify your attitude to take "what you want off the shelf and pay the price tag" under a moral analysis? I do not evaluate you personally, I am just curious to get a valid moral justification for your approach.

Prof.

In a nut shell a quick fuck with a money boy costs money. An allnighter costs more . A long term relationship costs an awful lot of money and especially in Thailand where these money boys once having hooked a weak hearted farang start the take to the cleaners mode.

A marriage is also costly once stuck with a partner one or the other is paying out for the rest of their life or the life of the partnership.

My point being that if it's just plain old sex you want without all the trimmings then take it of the shelf. The only connection between love and sex in my opinion is that I love to have sex.

There are also people I love, for example my partner who I have lived with for 20 years. I would do anything for him but sex is now almost off the menu we are buth bored with each others bodies. If the truth was know that would probably apply to almost all long term partnerships. I know our partnetship will last many more years because its not based on sex

[alipatt-old]

naked men on Ting & Tong.????

am I missing out on something

... don┬┤t you think that society (not you as an individual!) should morally denounce prostitution?What right has a society to "morally" denounce anything? That is a hangover from the notion of established religion, where the State upheld and enforced the moral values of the Church. Is abortion immoral? Adultery? Those are value propositions, and the State has no role in enforcing values. Its role is protecting rights (such as property rights and the right of the weak not to be oppressed by the strong) or the free market in ideas. Some would argue that prostitution is always about oppression of the weak by the strong; that's a doubtful proposition. Beyond that the State has no role, therefore discussions about the State and morality are irrelevant

For those who can't be bothered with our patronizing Professor, but are interested in the subject, it is well-argued at http://www.assassinationscience.com/pros.html

[andrewcraig]

That paying for sex is loosing its stigma depends on where you are. When in Thailand, I enjoy paying for sex - not just the act, but as wx40afp calls it - the "hunting".

1. You say you enjoy paying for sex, basically because of the "hunting" which is involved (when you are in Thailand).

I am curious: Is there really something what you can call a "hunt" when you go and take home a male prostitute (aka money boy) for sex? As far as I know, almost all male prostitutes in Thailand will be happy to exchange their body (and time) for money for almost all potential customers. Right? So, where is the element here in Thailand which would constitute a "hunt"? Whether you go to a beer bar, a go-go bar, whether you pick up a freelancer in the city or elsewhere - in most cases, the prostitute will be eager to "sign the contract", right? Thus, there seems to be no "hunting" necessary at all, at least in the scenario which I have just described. To me, a "hunt" would include an element of uncertainty which you do not find in all the commercial sex venues in Thailand.

Please accept the following comparison: In South Africa, there used to be certain game farms where you could hunt lions, among other animals. The lions were all tame, and just released from their hut when the gun-toting customer was ready for the so called "hunt". This outrageous performance was called "canned hunt" and made sure that the hunter got the "trophy" he had paid for in advance. Now, isn┬┤t the "canned hunt" comparable - in a figurative sense - with your "hunt" of male prostitutes in Thailand?

Prof.

Only a week ago I used the word hunting on this forum. I had never ever seen it used before

it was used on the thread do you take waiters off

http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/fo ... 12397.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/how-many-go-out-with-waiters-i-wonder-t12397.html)

peperrami quotes wx40atp "paying for sex is hunting" , that is not what I said

I stated I prefer to be the hunter and not [wait] around to be hunted. I do not include going to go go bars as hunting. bars are only when you have been unsuccessful or are tired of the chase.

Nor do I class as part of a hunt going up to a freelancer and asking "how much you come back my room?"

The meeting of the eyes, the furtive glances to see if they are still looking, the brief touch or smile at someone you have never met are part of the hunt. It become more challenging as you get very bloody old, but if you stop looking[hunting] it drops off, or you head back to a gogo bar it Pattaya

The professors claim that a hunt has a degree of uncertainity [and challenge] is what I was referring to.

[Aunty]

For those who can't be bothered with our patronizing Professor

Well, well, well. It looks like someone has finally broken homintern's previous apparent-monopoly on patronization! Of course, the king of the barb isn't quite as good about being on the receiving end. I can see the old goat's grey old index finger hovering near the ignore key already...

What??? Beryl flouncing out the door in her huff, never!

I think you need to consider the position of the provider, and how they view sex. If for the provider тАУ they consider sex to be a deeply personal activity, deeply entwined with intimacy, emotion and a physical connection (I gather from your first post these are the qualities you consider of тАЬgoodтАЭ sex тАУ then for them to sell their body, they are giving something very precious up. If on the other hand, one considers sex to be тАЬjust sexтАЭ тАУ then the provider isnтАЩt giving up so much after all.

Now, for me personally (and I think I am a fairly typical homo) тАУ the majority of sexual encounters I have are devoid of intimacy or emotion. If IтАЩm drunk тАУ I even become flexible on whether or not there is a physical connection!

Earlier, I mentioned Christianity тАУ for whom sex is not something banded about casually. I suggest it would be harder for a devout Christian to prostitute themselves out тАУ then for someone like me тАУ who has no guilt or baggage about getting around. So the question is, where would Thai culture sit on this scale? The few money boys I know as friends, rather then as their customer тАУ really donтАЩt seem bothered about their line of work. They really do seem to view it as simply going to do a job.

Hey Perfesser!
You're really in the wrong place if you think you're going to convince anyone here that prostitution is morally wrong.
No matter how well reasoned you think your arguments are you'll not find many buyers in this market.

You sound like those Wise Men of Old who used impeccable logic and flawless reasoning to "prove" such things like "the Sun revolves around the Earth", "Heavy objects fall faster than Light objects" and "the function of the Brain is to produce Snot".

There's nothing wrong with rubbing peter to pay Paul..... :cheers:

Don't tell me - boygeenyus has yet another identity :idea:

[jinks]

Don't tell me - boygeenyus has yet another identity :idea:

Yes for about 10 minutes, I was making coffee.

I'll only be away for 5 minutes at a time in future.

BG is apparently so full of bile and bitterness that he can't just walk away. Apparently he really doesn't have a life. sad

[Wesley]

BG put into his character, would you like to be unplugged after all that work. And of course he deserved it but, he had invested himself in hundreds of snips and posts only for Jinks to come along and simply unplug his connection,that in in itself must be frustrating and I know Jinks enjoys every waking minute around the coffee pot!

:cheers:

Wesley

Think of the time and trouble BG put into his characterNow that raises some interesting questions. How many of those who post here have made up a character in whom they have invested time and trouble ie. the poster is not a real person, but a made up one? To put it another way, is Wesley really the same as the person who writes as Wesley? Is The Colonel really me? The answer to the latter question is often stated - no. The Colonel/homintern is the amalgam of a number of out of work soap opera writers, scattered around the world, one of who is always "on duty" to make contributions. Even Hedda in her later rants came (grudgingly) to accept this fact ("I believe a number of people share The Colonel's password and write as him"). My niece Aunty, one of life's more useless twats, stumbled on the truth and wrote one day "You can't believe a single word he says". But is it true of boygeenyus? Did he invest time and trouble in a character, or is boygeenyus simply who he is - WYSIWYG

[Wesley]

Think of the time and trouble BG put into his characterNow that raises some interesting questions. How many of those who post here have made up a character in whom they have invested time and trouble ie. the poster is not a real person, but a made up one? To put it another way, is Wesley really the same as the person who writes as Wesley? Is The Colonel really me? The answer to the latter question is often stated - no. The Colonel/homintern is the amalgam of a number of out of work soap opera writers, scattered around the world, one of who is always "on duty" to make contributions. Even Hedda in her later rants came (grudgingly) to accept this fact ("I believe a number of people share The Colonel's password and write as him"). My niece Aunty, one of life's more useless twats, stumbled on the truth and wrote one day "You can't believe a single word he says". But is it true of boygeenyus? Did he invest time and trouble in a character, or is boygeenyus simply who he is - WYSIWYG

I am the Wes who PG Geezer and Jinks know, A number of others I met but don't know what their Pen name was. I am a much smaller version of him now having lost 40 pounds and my double chin.I remember well the Colonel, I generally tried to stay out of his way. Jinks I know PG I know Smiles I know from emails. You have changed your writing style if you are the Colonel.

But I have learned to use the spelling cow as well.

Wesley

You have changed your writing style if you are the Colonel.I'm the current Colonel on duty but my duties end shortly and I will hand over to someone in another time zone - perhaps his style will be more to your liking :drunken: