Re: Long term relationships

mauRICE,
I really liked your comments in your first response to this post and I agree overall with your perspective, although, I have a different opinion regarding the LOVE FACTOR

I don't think LOVE is alien to the Thai culture, just expressed and communicated in a different manner than we're accustomed in the West. The Thai's internalize a lot more of their emotional feelings which sometimes leads to frustration and misguided thoughts in a Thai/farang relationship.

During my early visits to LOS I was always surprised at boy specials response when I presented him with a gift. He rarely, if ever, looked up at me and said "thank you." This always left me a bit bewildered. Sometimes he would set the gift on the side and open it later. That really threw me a curve. I knew he liked the gift. I knew he had to appreciate receiving it, but where were those magic words "Thank You" that I've been so accustomed to hearing? I've now come to understand that he was thanking me, I just wasn't hearing him. I'm not trying to get deeeeeep here, it's just that I didn't understand "The Thai Way," and I think the same holds true in the LOVE arena.

Many of the seasoned working Thai boys know about the farang culture and our sensitivities regarding the "I Love You" statement, and know it well. They've learned (from us) the significance of that one simple statement and use it in many cases as a manipulative tool. All things considered, I guess I prefer having boy special really love me...even if I have to say the words to myself...he loves me...he loves me...he loves me...LOL

I think it was Pete that made a point that we (farangs) must be willing to change the way we think if we expect to have a successful LTR with our Thai boy lover, and I agree with his statement. The more I learn, over time, about the Thai culture, the easier things seem to become. Not always easier to digest...but just easier.

By-the-way, I always end my e-mail messages to Boy Special with "Phom Ruk Koon"...as it's his job to learn more about me as well.

[mauRICE-old]

It is interesting how the lack of understanding of "Thainess" is often used as an excuse or reason for the failure of a Thai-farang relationship. Second, quite a few seem to think that there's a difference between the way Thais and Westerners define love and honesty.

I believe romantic, passionate love is alive and well in Thailand of 2004. Look beyond Pattaya and Patpong and you will see the big picture. However, Thais, at least the ones that we have acess to, tend to apply a different a standard of love towards farang. I think we are agreed that most farang are not looking for heady, passionate love anyway but something that is more akin to affection and kindness, something to cure the loneliness, not unlike the avuncular affection that a doting nephew showers upon his generous uncle.

My question is: is the farang getting even that after all the effort, time, money and emotion he has invested? From what I've seen, no. The Thai may respond initially but after the familiarity sets in, he takes advantage of the situation, knowing that the farang has become emotionally dependent on him. He wants more money, more this, more that, throws tantrums if he doesn't get what he wants and in some cases, physically abuses the farang. Why doesn't the farang walk away you say? Because the emotions that the farang has for his boy are REAL. He is in LOVE. If he can't feel love, then what is he supposed to feel? Tell me. What I find most pitiable is that some farang feel that they deserve no better after a while. They are trapped.

Now, are the Thai's actions towards the farang acceptable by Thai standards? A big NO. I have contemporaries as well as older Thai friends who have "chooks" (male mistresses) and "kiks" (more polite way of saying "chook", the closest I can think of is lover with some money involved). The "chooks" and "kiks" practically crawl in the presence of their patrons. And they are GORGEOUS. Without wanting to sound uncharitable, they are nothing like the rejects that we get. And they say farang are accorded a high status in Thailand, hah!

How much do you think the Thai patrons give their toyboys? 4 to 5k, max. No gifts, no assistance to the family, no overseas trips. This is is a pittance compared to what the average farang spends on his boyfriend. Moreover, Thai patrons treat their chooks like servants, literally. This is the reality of Thai culture.

Why does the Thai do this? Because he CAN. He is playing on his home turf here. The culture, the language and the laws are built to protect him and to exclude the farang. He KNOWS that the farang has no recourse. Even his fellow farang are against him. When was the last time you saw a Thai side with a farang against another Thai? A farang complains, he is "jai ron", he doesn't give, he is not "jai dee", he is careful with his money, he is "kee neow", blah, blah, blah. They've got a one liner for everything. Sometimes I feel that foreigners are tolerated purely to compensate for the injustices they face from the upper crust; taking the cue from their oppressors, they perceive our generosity as a weakness to be further exploited. Hence, our place of honour at the bottom of the parasitic food chain.

When I talk about the lack of honesty, I'm not referring to an overrated face saving measure to cover a faux pas, which, incidentally, only seems to apply to foreigners. Have you seen the way wealthier Thais tell off their minions? How come no one tells them not to scream and shout because they will lose face as a result?

I'm really lamenting the intentional cheating, lying and duplicity that go on. The scams that are played on farang, sometimes planned years in advance before they are brought to fruition, with the knowledge and tacit support of all those around. The packaging is so good that you don't even realise that you're getting a raw deal. In this regard, I have found little difference between bar boys and those oh-so-coveted university students. At least, with the bar boys you know where you stand. These will be for another post and I can tell ya stories, believe me.

I feel so strongly about this because I think it is wrong to take advantage of an older person who asks for so little and gives so much. Where is the deference for older people that they love to trumpet; where is the respect?

is as addictive as cigarettes, alcohol or any other paradise or poison you can think of.

It's "mature" men discovering the fountain of youth again, right there in the Gulf of Thailand, only to find themselves close to drowning in water that's far too deep and dangerous for an old man to stay afloat.

Broken hearts and broken hips are quite often afflictions which go together when you get old with a young lover.

Come on in, the water's fine.

[mauRICE-old]

The initial post in this thread asked for opinions and experiences as to what makes a Thai-farang relationship work and what doesn't. I believe I have presented my views adequately. I have also responded to further questions with amplications and qualifications. I think on the whole we've had a fair and almost civilised discussion here. How it ultimately became about me personally and my mother's idea of romance I don't know.

What is the point of asking questions when one can't handle answers that don't affirm, what seems to me, a decided and increasingly desperate perspective? Don't waste time then; be the "good heart" farang who rescues 100 broken hearts (there's a movie in there somewhere). As we know, there's a severe shortage of gay farang in Thailand.

Hypocrisy is an interesting word. You'll learn a lot about it in the Land of Smiles.

Indeed, your posts on this subject remind one of the biblical search for 10 good men to save our wicked city from destruction. Well, no one, including Maurice, if I read him right, has suggested that there aren't 10 good thai-farang relationships here, or maybe dozens more, or that yours is not one of them; but the success stories here do tend to be more the exception than rule.

In a world where divorce rates among young attractive hetero couples deeply in love still exceeds 50%, is it so surprising that the mismatch you find in thai-farang couples wouldn't produce a much higher failure rate ? Add to that the fickle element of having two male testosterone levels in a gay pairing, and you have a relationship with a shelf life less than Raisin Bran. Most young thai men who share that view pack a small bag for the weekend and enjoy the ride while it lasts. And most farangs, no matter how deep their protests of love and commitment, quickly develop an appetite for more from the cookie jar.

There's nothing doomy or gloomy or cynical about it. It's just life and hormones, not good intentions, that usually triumph and no one should feel insulted by that.

In every poster who posts here, there are Asians in their own country. Why is it that they are not able to find a LTR with an Asian half their age where they already live? Why must they fly thousands of miles from where they are to find True Love?

Is it because being in public with someone half your age in Thailand is 'tolerated' whereas in your own country people may openly accost you? Is it because it is too expensive to have this type of relationship in your country? Is it because the Asians in your country are a little more savvey as to what type of guy they can attract? Are they still after the older farang or, if they have a job that pays them some money, do they all of a sudden seem to have an attraction for the younger ones?

I remember when I was at Jomtien a couple of years back. There was the most beautiful white guy on the beach that I have ever seen. Possibly from Australia. All the beautiful boys on the beach were throwing themselves at him. He unfortunately was with his own sugar daddy and was off limits. But these boys would have stood in line to be his boyfriend and I'm sure would not have a problem spending money their 'boyfriend' from another country on him.

Another thing I hear here all the time is how open so many are that are in a LTR to so readily accept the fact that they cheat on each other whenever the fancy hits. I have a feeling if you brought your 'boy special' back to your own country, this practice would cease at once on your end. Would you still let 'boy special' fool around with young good looking guys he meets in the bars and you are left alone with nobody showing any interest in you?

Just some questions to ponder.

I've desisted from posting to this thread because this board is concerned with things Thai and what I have to say refers to people from Hong Kong. I think much of what is posted above is generalization based on personal experience. I would be the last person to say that anecdotal evidence has no value but it has to be recognized that it has contexts. Generalizability may be limited to those contexts and be only heuristics. There are always exceptions to heuristics.

I have been in the same relationship now for 24 years. Here in London my partner mixes with a group of Hong Kong Chinese all with partners between 10 and 20 years older than them. Both the Chinese and non-Chinese spend significant amounts of their time in both locales. This group all profess to prefer older partners. Most of the Chinese are educated to at least degree standard and have developed professional careers. None of them were assisted in their careers by their partners. The longest relationship is over 30 years and the shortest more than 10.

I have to say that I don't see the exploitation and abuse that some refer to above. Most of the Chinese are now in their high earning phase and their older partners are living in properties owned by people that previously lived in their apartments. Should we call them rent-codgers?

So what can be generalized. Probably not very much except this. When there was an Asian society that was economically strong it supported a very sound education system with the strong support of the Asian population. Some gay young men who preferred older foreign partners formed long term relationships. They now find themselves in partnerships where they are the economically stronger partner and these relationships are persisting.

A tendency to assert that "all such and such are only after this or that and cannot be trusted" is at least unhelpful and could be viewed as racist stereotyping. One member of the foreign side of this gang is of Norman stock with a title going back to Agincourt. It was he who taught me that "an organization that makes selections and judgments based on anything other than ability harms itself".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/lubbkis/ptysig87.jpg

[mauRICE-old]

I do acknowledge that a minority of these relationships work but I have become convinced over the years that the odds are not any better in Thailand.

I agree with Thumpurr. The reason why farang think it's cool doing what they do here is not because it is accepted in Thai society but because they are out of the social loop and nobody knows them.

Asian guys who study and travel abroad know that the choice is a lot wider overseas. These days, one can travel to Singapore or Hong Kong to find cute farang guys, if that is one's preference. One of the many attractions of going to Thailand for me personally is the possibility of hooking up with a lonely, culturally awestruck backpacker. American boys are the best. They tend to believe anything you say, provided you package it well. No, that's not really fair. They WANT to believe that the person behind the smiles is genuine. I once met a Californian surfer boy in Narathiwat, of all places (great surfing there, btw). He was gorgeous - what do they feed them in California? It was easy: I did the demure Asian thing, threw a few cultural truisms at him (he lapped it up) and pretended that I did not speak much English. I had him for three days! Then there was the guy from North Carolina, with that stupid-sounding but sexy drawl and good ol' fashioned Christian values (I consider him a personal triumph). These Southern boys are blessed, and I don't mean in the religious sense here.

The problem is not money. The problem, inter alia, is the desperate clinging on to Orientalist notions of Thainess by some farang. In the farang's gaze, the Thai guy is weak, not too smart and deserves to be protected. The perception of the Thai as "victim" is further compunded by the fact that he is usually small built, soft spoken and surrounded by a kind of poverty quite alien to the farang. So when the Thai guy does something that would be construed as dishonest or immature anywhere else, it is rationalised as a cultural misunderstanding or even a necessity because the Thai guy can't possibly be savvy enough to have intentionally done what he did. When once in a long while an Asian comes along and suggests that you call a spade a spade, he becomes the bad guy or worse, is accused of not being Asian enough. Smell the coffee folks, it will soon be 2005.

But I digress. I could change my tune and make a fortune off these lonely farangs. There are well-educated and successful Asian professionals who purposely seek out older farang. Why? To get rich a lot quicker! Why slog when you can have that condo (including one in Sydney - that is so fashionable these days), sports car and six-star vacations before you turn 30. Plus, it's quite easy to have your own toyboy (or several) on the side at the farang's expense and the farang will be none the wiser.

Nah. I'm contented and grateful for what I have. My cup is full.

The destruction of most relationships, gay or straight, happens because of the expectation of sexual monogamy. We arenтАЩt programmed for it. Even these тАШlifetime marriagesтАЩ that we hear trumpeted are rarely fully monogamous. Uncomfortable though it is for us to think about it, even though mum and dad may have been together for ever, even though, maybe, they have had no other physical sexual partner, do you honestly believe that dad only ever thought of mum when he jerked off in the shower, or that mum only thought of dad when she was leaning against the washing machine?

Hetero marriages are held together by a glue other than sex. The children, the mortgage, social pressures, and after the first flush of passion (which lasts, what, a year at most?) sex becomes simply a routine тАУ hopefully a pleasant one, like the first cup of coffee and cigarette in the morning, but a routine none the less. The same with gay relationships тАУ the white hot passion doesnтАЩt last тАУ there has to be something more durable - the love, the deep affection, the warmth, the friendship тАУ yes, that can last, but the gut churning sexual electricity? Get real! (They say that you know the fires of passion are depleted when you both feel comfortable farting loudly in bed!)

When I first used to visit Teerak, five years ago, we were both fired up before we had got into the taxi from the airport. We were half undressed before the hotel room door closed behind us and we stayed in a state of sexual tension for days. Now we meet, go for a coffee together, exchange gossip, maybe go to the cinema before we even think about sex. When it happens it is more an expression of loving affection and oneness than of white hot passion тАУ it is wonderful, in some ways it is the best, but it isnтАЩt the same dynamic as rampant sexuality.

But, I still need that rampancy at times. So Teerak and I agree тАУ when we are together we are totally 100% together, but when we are apart we can, if we want, have a sexual fling. So occasionally if I meet up with a guy who is my sexual fantasy of the day I go for it. Now I live in Thailand I still only see Teerak at weekends, high days, holy days and holidays, so there are often five days of the week when I either sort myself out or go on the razzle. Teerak and I never talk about our other exploits тАУ I donтАЩt even know for sure if he has them тАУ but we agree that we will never use other sexual liaisons against each other or boast of them or even talk about them.

We trust each other, we talk daily by telephone or private internet chat room, we share our ups and downs of the day and we both know that if either of us needs a friend in times of sadness or stress тАШWeтАЩll come runningтАЩ.

To me that is a real relationship, it has a chance to last even when one of us (it will be me, for sure) is too old to be able to find it let alone get it up. I rarely refer to him as тАШmy boyfriendтАЩ because that has connotations of all the silly тАШone week standsтАЩ of my youth. I call him тАШTeerakтАЩ because that Thai word sums up what he is to me. More than an object of sexual desire, more than just another friend, more than I ever imagined or hoped for.

Now the naysayers and gloom mercchants and cynics can chide me for my rose tinted spectacles, my naivity, my lack of cultural awarenes, my impending destruction, but, do you know what my dears? I just don't give a damn!

[Smiles]

Guys, this has been a great thread with lengthy, well-thought-out, and quality posts coming in from all angles of what amounts to a pretty fundamental topic on this Board.

It has been a pleasure to read ... all of it. Thanks to Pete1969 for starting it.

Pete,

Please let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly:

You've known your BF for 10 months. He doesn't want to work in the sex industry anymore and has agreed to your terms, which include, you providing him with a monthly financial allowance, you pay for his, and his two sisters education, you pay for renovation of his families home. You then will provide him with some land and a home and throw in some rubber trees and cows for his parents. And in return, he promises to make himself totally available to you when you come to town. Is that what I'm hearing?

Noooooowwwwww I understand, and yes, I totally agree with your earlier statements, there are certainly thousands of long-term relationships like yours going on in LOS.

The best of luck to the two of you.

I disagree with your analysis Hmmm - much as I appreciated what you said. In fact I think Thais have a far more healthy attitude than you credit with them with. I know many young Thais (guys and girls), young professionals, students, bar boys, and apart from the most traditional of them they see 'sex' and 'love' as two different things.

Yes, sex with love attached is special to them, but sex, - lust if you like - is seen as 'sanuk', or an itch to be scratched, whereas 'love' is something serious; a hope to be fulfilled. They find it easy to distinguish the difference; it's us uptight, retentive, Hollywood influenced, sons and daughters of the Judeo-Christian ethic who get screwed up by it and are often incapable of telling the difference.

and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. (Time: Dark side of the moon)

...seriously though, for me the fastest way to end a relationship is for one party to start working at maintaining it. Whatever your state in any dimension, Serendip will provide.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/lubbkis/ptysig87.jpg

Dodger

I have been in this relationship for five years, through ups and downs, good and bad and I know I am absolutely committed to him and he to me. Over five years you get to know that sort of thing!

You are modelling your concept of a perfect relationship on the heterosexual model - but we are talking gay relationships here, and gay relationships fail when people try to live them as a straight one, and think that the only difference between a gay and straight relationship is in who does what and with which and to whom - and far too many gay people make themselves miserable because of failure to accept the real differences.

The key to love, I believe, is 'honesty, trust, respect' and security in how we feel.

There are no kids to maintain absolute monogamy for, no possibility of accidental pregnancy, no priests or rabbis telling us what is right or wrong, just two free spirits who love each other, are realistic and have enough trust not to worry about bourgeoise concepts of total exclusivity in our pleasures.

It works, believe me - and it is the most important thing in my life, and his. That is our security.It is not in knowing that we have exclusive access to each others rude bits.

By the way, Dodger, he has imposed some rules on me - the main one being that I don't have sex with anyone else I really care about - and that includes (and is honoured by me) the two lovely friends of mine that you have met!!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm asserted


I agree that Thais have less hangups about sex than those who labour under a J-C religious upbringing

Either you don't live in Thailand or you don't read the newspapers (or both)

We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Might I suggest that this 'gap' is precisely the reason that many of us so much enjoy our time in Thailand and our interaction with the guys we typically meet? I don't think many of us are looking for alleged 'equals'. It may be that those who are intent on replicating western models (whether motivated by our own emotional makeup or by closed-mindedness) are the ones most likely to suffer disappointment.

Long reading on this board and its predecessors has led me to believe that those who delight in the differences (cultural, language, age, experience, oppurtunity) and are willing to enter into the exchange are the ones most likely to find that special someone.

Might I further suggest that upon entering 'thier' turf, thier world, many of these differences are lessened. We may be 'hip to the scene' on our own block, but when we walk out the door of our condo in Thailand or through the arrival gates at BKK we give up some sense of cool. To me, there are only two major categories of farang...those who find joy in the role-change and those who want to drag all thier baggage with them.

Each of us are who we are. Each of us sociable enough to leave the house will find another worthy to be called 'companion'. But it seems to me that those willing to travel or relocate thousands of miles without leaving most of thier shit at home have greatly lessened thier chances for finding a like-minded friend and lover.

posted in this thread. People who think that romantic, sexual and monogamous lust can last a lifetime are just fooling themselves. The human body isn't programmed that way and efforts to achieve it make most people frustrated and resentful...and eventually alone.

I love my new car, and I won't let anyone drive it except me, but I don't think that puts me and the car in any kind of meaningful relationship. The same principle applies to people. Jealousy is not a sign of affection; it's the mark of insecurity and selfishness. So, if you or your bf gets bent out of shape or hyper when there's talk about an "open" relationship, it's probably because someone's afraid you'll dent the shiny car and ruin an illusion that never existed.

In my experience, the only long term relationships that survive between young thais and old farangs are those which last long enough to get beyond sex and the possessive jealousy that comes with it, and evolve into a more mature and largely non-sexual companionship. I think that's what happens in most straight and gay marriages too. The sexual infatuation always fades and the couple either learn to love and care for each other on another level, or they divorce.

The long-term success stories are couples who live together 24/7, but manage to give each other enough room and privacy to satisfy their libido in and outside the home, while still maintaining that special bond between them.How best to do that is a matter of matching chemistry between two people and no one solution fits all.

In my experience, it's the guys who insist on "total fidelity" who doom their own chance for long-term companionship and happiness, because they inevitably have to resort to fantasies and lies to keep that illusion alive. Old farangs do it because they need to feel "loved and not used." Young Thais do it to preserve their turf, and keep the goose laying golden eggs at home.In most cases,however, once either or both guys start down the road to deception to keep the romantic illusions alive, they end up destroying the trust which any long term partnerships needs to survive. People who think they can keep the honeymoon alive forever, would do well to marry the tooth fairy.

You know Colonel, I am well aware that Hedda no longer plays with you, and you feel you need a new foil or target in order to feel as if you are deriving any pleasure from this Board. It won't be me who takes up swords with you merely for your amusement.



If in your advanced years you cannot grasp simple concepts presented plainly, you are either willfully ignorant (which means stupid in one with so much experience as yourself) or hopelessly senile. Either way, I would place myself in a no-win situation to verbally spar with you.



I have seen you reduce a number of good and interesting threads to banality with your back and forth repeated insults and endless carping with other posters. With this one exception, you will not get me to engage your childish fancy.



If you cannot fathom that over the last 30 years that some thousands of Thai/farang relationships have probably lasted for some significant period, that a person could reasonably say that a year is a lifetime in relationship cycles where most are lucky to last three months especially when they are trying merely to establish a starting point for a definition of long-term, and that when one states he has HEARD persuasive arguments on a topic that it does not mean that he necessarily supports them (heck, there were several posts on this thread alone that I found persuasive but in the end did not agree with), then your ability at clear thought is greatly suspect.



I would be interested to know what YOU think makes LT relationships between a Thai and farang work, but you have never shown much interest in actually responding to the topic of a thread or making cogent or logical arguments of your own, have you? At least you got the handle right...you are definitely the resident bore.



Flail and flame away at me if you must, but from here on out, I'm like Hedda: I'm completely ignoring you.



Pete

[mauRICE-old]

Wow, some farang really take this LDR business seriously. Maybe that's why they fall so hard. I myself adopt a carefree, easy-going attitude when in the LOS. Enjoy what is offered, pay when I have to (and pay fairly) and then move on. Never get involved.

There are too many sad stories in the Land of Smiles; some of them true, many are not. It is not my problem. It is the problem of the Thais themselves and those women with big hair sporting Piagets and Rolexes. They don't care so why should I?

Of course, people who live here full time with their partners will feel differently. The trials and tribulations of sustaining a relationship are real. The pitfalls I have described in my posts are from relationships in this category. I would probably not have contributed to this thread had I known the circumstances of the original post.

I find Japanese behaviour most instructive in this regard. There are many of them in Thailand and the Thais are crazy about them. They are generous with tips and gifts and have the kind of look that Thais find attractive. I know many a Thai boy who who would trip over backwards to find a Japanese boyfriend or sugar daddy. But most of them don't. Why? Because the Japanese see things for what they are. Coming from a culture where sex for money and its derivatives are also not uncommon, they are able to see through the beautiful packagings. Thus, they are unlikely to commit themselves to anything long term.

You love, you analyse, you understand, you acculturalise, you romanticise, you help, you compromise, you rationalise but I suspect that a lot of people have forgotten to live and simply enjoy life. What really makes YOU happy? Go for that - you've certainly earned it after working hard all your lives. If you really believe that you can reap happiness vicariously by making somebody else happy and catering to his whims, then I rest my case. If not, you might want to explore other options. There are plenty of fish in the sea. Don't sell yourself short.

PS May I suggest that some of you talk to your $boyfriends$ for a change instead of belabouring every little detail on this board. If The Colonel's gentle chiding and pithy, thought-provoking comments are too much for you, wait till you come to Thailand to live full time. Have fun, darlings. I'm off to Bangkok in the morning and then on to Pattaya at the weekend.

[Bob]

Too many of you "tink too much." Reminds me of the few residents of the insane asylum who were there, quite simply, because they worried too much if they were sane. You get the result you want by subjectively defining the parameters.

I go to Thailand 2-3 times every year for 2-3 weeks at a time and I've had what I consider to be a good relationship with my Chiangmai thai friend. I expect the relationship will continue for as long as I continue but I don't worry if it doesn't. I or he might get hit by a truck tomorrow or he/I could tell the other to piss off or, I suppose, the end of the world may occur this coming Saturday at 4:23PM. I'm not going to define or categorize how we feel about each other as I don't feel the need to do that (nor do I seek anyone else's approval even if I could define it accurately).

Posters using blanket statements ("most" or "all" falang relationships are this way or that way) are only telling me that's how they negatively and narrowly see the world and their telling me their factless findings (based on their very few good or bad relationships) certainly doesn't enhance their long-term credibility.

Damn, go with the flow, make an effort, treat them with respect, learn a bit here and there, try to not repeat mistakes you make, and enjoy the good moments you have. If there are no good times for you, you've truly earned it.

spending a few weeks with some Thai guy a few times a year and calling that a relationship is fine, if that makes you happy, but don't try and apply that situation to start telling guys who live with someone 24/7, that they think or worry too much about their relationships.

It's easy to impose happy-go-lucky rules to sex-buddy romances. It's great not to worry if you might never see him again. But that attitude hardly defines a relationship in any sense other than a convenient and comfortable sexual one. Obviously, no one wants to think too much about someone they see for a total of 6 weeks a year; you'd go crazy doing it. But don't kid yourself. You'll never cope with the joys and woes of living with someone every day, 24/7 if you slap that "what me worry" label on it. Try going to bed and waking up with the same guy every day for the next five years and maybe you'll discover there's a vast difference between telling guys who do it that they think too much about relationships and thinking not at all.

* There is an old Janis Joplin song with the words "Freedom's just another name for nothing left to lose." There is also a Terry Temptest William's essay where she talks of two herons on a river. About them she says, "Their decisions are not based on a terror of loss."



It is quite the sword's edge, this line between freedom and loss, and IMHO, perhaps the most maddening thing about being in a relationship. For if one has a serious, romantic, relationship that could become a long-term or even a lifetime prospect, then it is probably impossible not to give it serious thought and complementation. Involved and complicated relationships (as are ones with someone from a very different culture) do take thought, and work, and compromise, and understanding. Is it worth it? Most days, hell yes, and a few that make you scratch your head and wonder.



*Don't take the collective navel gazing of this Board as too much angst. Merely it is the reflections of those who enjoy lively discussion and debate engaging in such on one of their favorite topics: LOS and the men who inhabit it.



*I would agree with Dodger 100% that if a boy is only in a relationship to get his physical needs fulfilled (security needs), and a farang only to get his emotional needs fulfilled, then it is a relationship that probably would not work. (Please note the probably.)



But again, we cannot make an assumption that just because a farang takes care of his Thai bf's security/ financial needs, that the bf has no emotional investment or is not getting his own emotional needs fulfilled. Speaking only on my experience, one of my bf's greatest emotional needs is to find someone who is "true to him" (his words), meaning that he wants someone he can count on day in and day out over the long term to be there for him. The longer we are together, the more he feels he can trust me,and the more he loves me because I am fulfilling this emotional need of his.



*From my reading of this thread, it seems that good communication might be the most important part of maintaining a relationship.



*My Thai bf is not overly inquisitive about my life, but I chalk that up to his culture. I am always amazed at how little his long term friends know about his life at home and his family and that his family knows nothing of his work life. My understanding is that Thai's are not a people that ask a lot of personal, probing questions.



As a matter of fact, my bf often tells me not to ask so many questions and to do like he does and learn by listening (damn, but I am not very good at that). And it does amaze me how often he remembers the most inconsequential thing about my life that I mentioned in passing months before.



Pete

Wide Traveler,

I suggest that you read and re-read the many perspectives being offered on this topic and make a decision that feels right to you...which brings to mind an interesting Buddhist concept...

"Our internal voice will not always tell us the right way to go - but will always tell us the wrong way."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

And I wasn't going to post anymore to this thread, but I can't resist this one:

Wide Traveler,

A monthly allowance is a good idea. However, I would advise you to really think through what you want and can afford to give and if you are ready for a relationship that involves you giving money. It is not easy for many reasons, chief among them trusting that the guy likes you and not just the money, understanding that you are not buying anything from the guy with the money you give, and struggling with how to develop a normal relationship when money is a factor. Many well meaning farang start down this path and discover a few months in that they are just not cut out to be a sugar daddy; it just goes against something in them, that try as they might, they cannot shake. IT IS NOT EASY reconciling romance and cold hard cash. Please take a hard look at your self and know that you can do it, or otherwise you will probably end up hurting yourself and your friend, as well as ending up with a soured relationship.

From what I have read and heard, most farang settle on a monthly allowance of 5,000 to 15,000 baht each month. I strongly suggest starting off for the first few months giving about half the amount you might feel comfortable giving. As well, you must be very clear with the guy that you will send that amount and not one penny more regardless of what may happen in his life. This way, you will find out very quickly if he has any real interest in establishing a LT relationship with you, or if he just wants a cash cow (if he just wants a cash cow the stories about the sick mother and the dead buffalo will start coming fast and furious, and while it might be okay to try to get money from you, it certainly does not bode well if he throws you attitude when you say no). It is okay that the guy might be looking for someone to take care of him; however, a Thai person usually does not rush into any relationship, and if he is sincere, he will appreciate and respect you for taking things slowly and should understand your reasoning about the money without you even telling him.

After a few months, if you feel he is sincere, then you might discuss with him his financial needs and what he expects from you. You can then negotiate a higher allowance. You can also set some expectations of your own. Again, in the first few months, I would expect nothing but some basic communication and to see how things develop. I reset my bf's allowance after 4 months (when we actually decided to give the bf thing a try). After 6 months, due to several factors, he left his job at which time I raised his allowance once again (to reflect his best month's salary from his job, lower than what I thought it might be). He and I both know he is at a ceiling on the allowance. I did move a bit faster in the money realm with the bf than I wanted, but it worked out the way it did in a natural progression.

I opened up a separate bank account for my bf and sent him the ATM card for that account. Money transfers and Western union are very expensive. I only put his allowance in that account. I usually send his allowance to him broken up into weekly installments. We both like this method as it allows him to have better control of his money. He has never tried to overdraw the account, and it would be tough for him to do so. I sent the ATM card the first week I came home after our first meeting. It was the cheapest and best option I could find (also you can very easily transfer money between accounts online if the accounts are with the same bank which is another handy advantage to him having an ATM card).

After seven months, I also gave my bf a credit card on a shared credit account. He never uses it without my permission, and the limit is very low ($500 USD). I gave him this for many reasons: face; so I could call him once a month or so and treat him to a new shirt or pair of pants; so he would have a major credit card in his name for when we travel or for when he might need it; and for him to use when I take him shopping in LOS (gosh, I always love the look on the clerk's face when they look to me for payment and the bf whips out his own credit card, and it certainly makes him feel good too).

This is just my experience. Money in a relationship is a very personal matter between you and your guy. If you have read this thread, you probably already know that I think that money is one of the biggest factors in Thai/farang relationships (and mostly to the detriment of those relationships), so please tread carefully. I know it is only MHO, but think about it.

Good luck to you!

Pete

It's been 12 years and somehow we survive, there have been rocky patches but we are at that stage where we are more friends than lovers (in the sexual sense) we are free to go off and have other partners but so far we have not yet found

1. Anyone we prefer to live with more than each other!

2. Anyone who'll put up with us for longer than 1 night!


"You gotta admit it takes real guts to be a Queen in a world full of commoners" = Michael in Queer as Folk

I no longer see my Ex BF as my BF anymore,meaning he s free to do what he wants.I no longer "chase" him.

I see him all the time i come to Pattaya,he s very bad boy even though he says i am.He tells me how he rips farang off etc.We both dont like the beach,we both like hip hop.He likes Muay Thai boxing etc.

He likes fighting ,he likes everything i mostly do.

He hates farangs.He saved my life last friday night.


</p>

Thats very interesting Maurice,your saying a lie is a lie,and whether there THai or not,they re still lying and theres no excuse?

You know i was sitting in a cafe in DAy/Night on Sunday morninng and i heard this old guy farang say to another farang,that another farang had told him he had caught the boy looking thru his bag whilst he was in the shower and this farang was upset,so he told him the Thai boy was curious about him thats why he done it,we all know thats bullshit.


</p>

[RichLB]

How can a retired relationship counselor resist responding? Let me credential myself for this question. I've been in a farang-farang relationship for 35 years now and simultaneously a Thai-farang relationship for 5. It seems to me the secret to both is not really culturally dependent at all. I also don't think it's all that complicated.



The secret is the realization that no one is responsible for making you happy - that's your job. The hard part is resisting the temptation to fall into the "More - Better - Different" syndrome. Seldom is "more" time, "more" sex, "more" attention, etc. the answer. Folks who try this way of "fixing" a relationship usually give up (since it doesn't work) and try to switch to "better" quality time, "better" sex, "better" expressions of attention, etc. Soon, they discover that this doesn't work either. That's when the appeal of "Different" rears it's head. The belief is that what they need is spending "different" time with a new person, "different" sex with a new body, "different" attention from someone new, etc. Once Mr. Different is established, the pattern usually repeats all over again.



So, again, the secret is to recognize that to make changes in a relationship means making the changes in yourself which creates happiness in you. Simple enough in concept, but often tough in reality.


</p>

As a Butterfly, I see a long term relationship (LTR) more in the sense of a long term friendship (LTF) to avoid the consequenses of long term dillusionment (LTD).



During my last October visit, boy special got in one of his mood swings and said he wasn't in the mood for sex that day. I told him that I fully understood his feelings. As I slipped on my shoes and reached for the keys to the condo, he asked me where I was going. I told him I would be back in a few hours and that I was going out to have some sex. He immediately responded by telling me how wrong I was to do that and started lecturing me. I simply replyed..."you think too much."



I've always had a tremendous respect for the working Thai boys, and always will, but at the same time, I don't drain my bank account to fly half-way around the planet 2 times a year to sit around an play with myself.



The farangs that I know who claim to have LTR's are those who provide regular financial support to their BF's and are willing to accept the reality that LOVE just isn't going to be part of the deal, not in the sense that we view LOVE in the West. I'm sure there's successful long-term loving relationships out there...I simply haven't witnessed any to date.


</p>

[PeterUK]

I've never spent long enough in Thailand to conduct what I would call a proper long-term relationship. Sorry, but I don't think seeing the boyfriend for a few weeks a year and mailing him cheques the rest of the time counts. I have 'fallen' (appropriate word) for several Thais and those relationships have always ended up being far more painful than fulfilling. I plan to live full time in Thailand from early in the new year and the idea is to see a handful of young men I am fond of on a rota basis - a compromise, if you like, between being a butterfly and totally monogamous. I hope this will give me 'quality' time with them, while avoiding some of the complications of being too deeply involved. We'll see if it works out. A handsome young prince might turn up and upset the applecart by transforming me into a drooling old fool again.


</p>

I can relate to your touching account, zzz; in fact I envy the fact that you have found what you were looking for. Many of us haven't.

I travel to Thailand four times a year for three weeks at a time and have met many guys on the scene, only one of whom did I find unlikeable. Never had I met one that I wanted to see again and again until a trip earlier this year when I offed someone who seems special. I shall be seeing him again soon- in 41 days to be precise.

However, fond as I am of him and I think he of me, I do not want this relationship to be too intense for a number of reasons, only one of which is the struggle that we share in relating verbally. Not only do I not wish to commit myself (I remain a butterfly), I do not wish him to expect too much of me. This includes both financially and in terms of time.

A few years ago, I was involved with an African guy in The Gambia, whom I would see two or three times a year and with whom I stayed in contact by phone and letter. However hard I tried (and his English was excellent) I could not persuade him that he and I could only be casual friends, separated as we were by distance and interests. The ending was painful for him because it involved the ending of his fanancial hopes and dreams. You must remember that Gambians are some of the poorest people in the world and prospects for young men very poor.

This taught me an important lesson; I am not suited to the process of devoting myself to one guy for a long term relationship. I'm not proud of this- I see it as a failing- which is why I respect zzz's relationship. And so my new friend will be just be a special friend; I'll be kind, considerate and generous but I shall be careful not to encourage hopes that I shan't fulfil. If he were to find a generous sugar-daddy, I'd be genuinely pleased for him and a little sorry for myself but I know there'll be many more like him. That is why I love Thailand.


</p>

[American Teacher-old]

My Thai husband and I met 3 1/2 years ago. At the time, he was a bar back in a go-go bar, but had little "business" and didn't like the life. We hit it off immediately and continued to stay in touch.



He began to work outside of the bars, and I began visiting more and more frequently. I would be lying if I said none of this was reliant on money -- I gave him a decent amount each time I came and even helped him through some school while I was back in the US. Each time I came (about 2-3 times per year), we became closer and closer. Sex was great, but the kinship and comfort we built with each other was far more rewarding.



I fell in love with him as well as Thailand and decided that I needed to make a leap of faith both personally and professionally. Due to the fact that I was fairly young (32 years old) and a teacher in the states, the transition to taking a year leave-of-absence and getting a job in the LOS was fairly easy. I lived there for 1 ful year.



Leaving family and friends was tough, but turned out to be well worth it. During my stay in Thailand, my boyfriend and I lived together and shared all the bills. I of course, was making more money so I was footing most of the bills. However, we were hardly living in "style" and some months we could barely even pay our bills. I will never forget the night I sat him down and told him life for the near future was going to be very rough and that we would not have a lot of money to spend having superfluous fun. He turned to me and said, "Tree-lak, I don't care about the money. If I did, I would have never stayed with you this long. I love you."



So you see, he has taught me that Thais can break out of their expectations and that love can exist. As much as I have learned to accept his Thai ways, he also has learned the importance of expressing feelings and being honest (not just saving face) in western fashion.



We both have grown so much. We were married in a Thai Lanna-style wedding on July 9, 2004 in front of 250 members of his family and friends in Prayo, Thailand.



It can happen, but it isn't easy. Don't look for it, but never stop hoping that it can actually happen to you.



-Chris<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">


</p>

You sound so sweet,do u ever stray frrom your "hubby"?

I would love to have met you last week when i was in Thailand.I would have love to have shown you a good time.

Your obvoiusly a bitch.A bitch that deserves a spanking.

I like your love stories and how you and your husband met.

I am jealous as me and my Ex ladyboy BF dont like romantic stuff. Maybe we could all meet when i come back in January.


</p>

Thai boys don't have the same idea of privacy and private things as farang. They will look through everything in your room, even your wallet. They are nosy creatures. This is not a sign that they will steal. Some will steal in particular if using drugs but they are all nosy and this curiosity is not the same as dishonesty. Don't get upset if they look in a bag or a drawer. I had several boys search my stuff and come up with say hidden pic of old BF and say what is this. None of them stole anything. If you want privacy you better lock things down and hide the keys.


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I feel that maintaining a relationship here requires a lot of turning the other cheek, going easy on one's wallet and not asking too many questions<hr></blockquote>



I agree with this statement, mauRICE. However, I think this can be a good thing for many Westerners (myself included) who tend to over analyze their relationships and talk them to death. My last visit my bf told me "You sound like girl sometimes." Boy did that stop me cold in my tracks as I tell people I could never be straight because I could not deal with a woman's emotional needs and constant need for validation.



The things you mention above, for me, are also the hardest part of maintaining my relationship with the bf. It is also very hard for him, and he tells me this all the time. We both chafe under trying to understand one another's culture, communication styles, emotions, and expectations. My bf is very good at trying to meet me halfway (for example he is very good at saying "thank you" because he knows it is part of my culture). So far, we both are willing to continue the effort, hard as it may be, but I wonder at times if we can both keep it up (and we both hope that as time goes by that it will become increasingly easier). And, as you stated, I also often wonder if the return is worth the investment. Again, now I say "hell yeah," but I am curious as to how long that might last.



I do think your friends you mention might be getting a raw deal, but I also know that they are doing this to themselves. I think any relationship between Thai/farang needs very clear and firm ground rules, and the bf and I have a few deal breaker clauses in our relationship. I wonder if your friends got a bit of backbone and insisted on being treated fairly or else the bfs take a hike what might happen? Of course, the Thai men in those relationships might think they are treating the farang very well according to Thai standards, and the farang are just not communicating their needs and expectations very clearly. Hard to know. There is probably plenty of blame to go around.



But I do honestly think you miss a bit of the bigger picture when you insist Thai people adhere to your definitions of respect, honesty, and love. Many Thai people lie because to them saving face is much more important than honesty (and of course they also lie for the same reasons that we do--I am not so naive as to think otherwise). Love is felt and expressed much differently. What they do to show you great respect, you might consider a great insult (such as not burdening you with their feelings).



However, I do admire your knowledge that you are not at a place in your life where you are willing to sacrifice what you think is fair and right for you in order for you to wholesale adopt someone else's value system. At least you know this about yourself and you are being true to who you are (I think many Thai/farang relationships probably fail because the farang is often very good at paying lip service to their desire to change how they think, but in reality, they are not). Someone else said on this board once that you be who you are and let the Thai be who he is. Good advice, except that it is probably fruitless in establishing a long term relationship. Relationships take compromise and meeting one another half way. It is just that it is often hard to know where halfway might be.



Pete












</p>

Sorry to double post on the same thread.



I read a comment once by gaybutton that if in a relationship with a Thai man remember the golden rule: "You have the gold, you make the rules."



While this might be a bit simplistic, I wonder if at its heart it is a sure-fire recipe for a long-term relationship with a Thai.



You make firm ground rules (together if possible), you maintain the bf with a healthy allowance and work with him to create a better financial future for himself, and stay consistent to this no matter what.



Assuming you are a kind and thoughtful person, do you think most (95% or more)Thai men would ever leave a relationship where they are financially well taken care of by a person with a good heart? Most Thai men I have met who finish long term relationships have done so because the money stopped (and some of them stayed with their farang for several years past the point of a decent financial return on their time and emotional investment).



In reality (and regardless of how you personally feel about it), is a steady supply of money/financial stability the best indicator for a long-term Thai/farang relationship (again taking into account you are not a total asshole to be around)?



Pete



PS-I am not sure I am advocating this position, but am leaning towards it. This is why I ask the "experts."






</p>

The 'you have the gold you make the rules' epithet is fine if you want someone to be your rent boy, slave, servant or lap-dog, but if you want a real relationship that is a recipe for failure.



You have to make the rules together. Not sit down and write them out, but develop them according to changing circumstances.



Sometimes a rule will come out of your background and culture, but sometimes, too, it will come from his. You can buy sex or companionship with gold, but you can't enforce a relationship or love with it.



Of course your 'wealth' will be an issue in the relationship, but equally so is his youth and beauty. Try playing your gold card too much and he will start to play the cards he has.


</p>

You know zzz, I am just not convinced. It certainly makes us all feel better to say that money cannot buy a real relationship in LOS. Yet of the many Thai men I have talked with, every single one of them identified a farang's ability and willingness to take care of them as the key factor they were looking for in their long term relationships. I know this does not apply to every Thai man, but IMHO, I think it applies to most of them.



People the world over have a very strong attraction to mates who can provide them with security. In LOS, I think it is even more true. And, in the end, the gold card is really the only card that matters in MOST Thai/farang relationships. You take that card off the table and the game is over for everyone involved.



Personally, I try very hard to understand my bf and his culture and to be a truly nice guy and good bf. He does the same for me. But as long as I act halfway decent, I think my bf's main concern is that I continue to provide him with financial security. To me, that is by far the biggest factor in the long term success of our relationship.



So maybe, if one wants a long term relationship in LOS, one simply must be a nice guy and provide consistent financial support. As long as you do, then you will have the relationship.



And maybe not. I don't have the experience yet to know for sure.



Pete



PS-I do think the "if you have the gold, then you make the rules" saying is a bit over the edge. However, I think too often farang bend too far the other way and allow themselves to be walked all over by men they are supporting!



Also, I find it interesting when the words "real relationship" and "real bf" pop up in a thread. Who gets to define what is real? You? Me? George Bush?










</p>

This has been a fantastic topic for me as i have recently entered what is supposed to be a LTR with a Thai business guy who is about 35 and i am over 52. I had deliberately looked for and chosen a reasonably mature, intelligent guy with a good job.

I simply have been drawn into the most emotionally draining experience of all time ...this guy at his best is very handsome to my eyes, great company and very affectionate. However I have never known such petulance and contrariness in my life which is normally cured by promises of trips or dinners etc.

Like others have said it is as if it is planned. I am told that it must be a monogamous relationship yet i have the feeling that there are other farang guys whom he calls just friends that he may have some sex with.It is quite impossible for me to assess the relationship and it seems to me that the easiest way is out.

This is a relationship that has been fostered initially by my friend but I have a feeling that he is wary when his petulance goes too far...all the time the feeling is there that the interest is only the money


</p>

[American Teacher-old]

"The Thai may respond initially but after the familiarity sets in, he takes advantage of the situation, knowing that the farang has become emotionally dependent on him. He wants more money, more this, more that, throws tantrums if he doesn't get what he wants and in some cases, physically abuses the farang."

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



This above quote is so far from the truth in my case. My bf (husband) has never shown any of these qualities. I wonder if this is a case of ageism a bit too. I met him when I was 29. Perhaps the closer in age, the more in common? Could it be that the younger/older scenario breeds this spitefulness discussed above?



Thoughts? Ideas?



-Chris


</p>

There is a lot of wisdom in what you say mauRICE. In the past I was 'bittem' - but it really isn't true in every case.



Of course, I didn't meet my Teerak on the scene, and maybe ours is an exception that proves the rule. I don't lavish huge amounts of money on him, and, for example, everytime I take him out to dinner he will reciprocate. Of course my treat will cost more than his - but that's not the point. He has never asked me for money and has sometimes got angry at my extravagance, and he refuses to accept expensive gifts, telling me that I am 'stupid with money'.



In some ways I recognise that I am as much the 'kindly uncle' as I am his lover and friend, but he has been extremely kind to me too. For example, I once, stupidly, mislaid my passport. He rushed to Bangkok, at his own expense, made phone calls, and generally held my sweaty hand, and said he would give me money if I needed any (thankfully ATMs don't ask for passports, so I didn't need to take him up on this!)



I once asked him why he loved me - he replied 'because you are crazy Englishman man who needs someone to love you or you will be stupid fool, and I am crazy boy who needs to love you, and because you love me, and because you make me laugh and because ...'. OK, that's good enough reasons for me, and after five years it still works for both of us.






</p>

You hit the nail on the head Maurice,most of them i saw are lonely old guys with young BF.Thats why a lot of the time i have to put my ex BF into line ,sometimes its physical on both our parts including him last week smashing a whisky bottle.However i know a lot of barboys,99 percent have thai boyfriends,its a case of "pay for a BF".

I found a guy last week who i met at karaoke who was ugly.

He liked the way i dance to Enimem Hip Hop music and came and sat next to me.I was a little drunk and he starts asking questions about my ex BF etc.

I told him thais cant be trusted how they break hearts etc,at the end he asked me to go back to his place and i asked him how much.I didnt want to as he was ugly Thai,so my plan was to say no when he told me.He said he wasnt a barboy but worked as an accountant.He was 37,3 years older than me and he told me he would like to know me better.

I refused,if however he had been goodlooking i would have gone,but he had a good heart.When i left karaoke he beeped his horn from the late model mercedas he was driving,but i went on looks not heart.When i told this to my ex BF,he started to get pissed off,"Why man want you,you are ugly man,why he want elephant"? Then i showed him what a right hook was.




</p>

Thanks Billy. I wasn't aware that Thai boys just need a good slapping around now and again to keep them in line.



Maurice, on your last post, I disagree with just about everything you say.



I wonder how many people on this Board would agree with your assertion that the greatest majority of Thai men are willfully trying to cheat every farang they meet? It does not sound like many Thai men I know. Sure, I have met a few bad apples, but the majority of Thai men I know truly have the best of intentions when they hook up with a farang.



I also think that often a Thai will side with a farang over another Thai. My Thai friends will tell me in a heartbeat if they think a boy is bad or if they think another Thai is trying to cheat me. Hell, even my bf's friends will admonish him in front of me if they think he is treating me poorly.



As to Thais and Westerners having the same cultural standards for being in love and for honesty, I am at a loss. The two cultures are so obviously different in regards to those two things that it floors me that someone who presents themselves as knowledgeable about Thais can say otherwise. You may wish it to be true that romantic love and honesty are valued the same the world over so that you can stay faithful to what your mama taught you, but wish in one hand and shit in the other....



You know people all over the world end up in relationships like you describe in your post. A relationship can start out with both parties having the best of intentions, but it can end up with familiarity breeding a comfort level that allows for both parties to stop trying so hard, or for them to realize they might not like the other person as much as they thought, or to where they feel okay fighting more, or asking for more, or even getting frustrated more easily. And many people endure in these relationships due to love or a hope that things might get better. It is not endemic to LOS.



What is different is that most gay Thai/farang relationships involve MONEY. So, when these relationships end up as most gay relationships all over the world end up (over), then people can scream user at the Thai and victim at the farang because the Thai boy took the farang's freely offered money and then had the gall to not live with him happily ever after. It seems the worst sort of hypocrisy because a victim emerged only because money changed hands. Had it been a "normal" relationship (as the farang insisted it be all along), then both would be simple victims of a failed relationship. Either we set rules up front and state that we expect our money to buy us something (happily ever after), or we don't and not cry victim at the end.



You know for every farang victim with a broken heart and dashed dreams, I can probably point you to at least 100 Thai men with a broken heart and dashed dreams at the hand of a farang. Such is life and relationships, especially when two cultures and two human beings with human failings and human feelings collide.



Pete


</p>

The most significant factor of "age gap" doesn't seem to be getting its fair share of focus in this discussion.



Almost every person participating in this thread keeps referring to "Thai Men", when in fact, the vast majority of Thai/Farang relationships fall within the context of "Thai Boys." Meaning the farang is old enough to be the boys father, or in some cases, grandfather...or even great grandfather...it's sad when you really think about it, but at the same time, a bit humorous.



You guys can continue to rationalize, minimize, de-focus or intellectualize this subject till hell freezes over, but the reality of the situation won't change. When it comes to a Thai boys true desire for a relationship, especially when you're considering the components of sex and love, a Thai boy wants someone who was at least born in the same epoch, and that's the bottom-line. It's not my bottom-line mind you...it's called REALITY.



Pattayagay is right, 99% of the boys we all cherish have Thai boyfriends, and why wouldn't they. Better yet, why shouldn't they.



Falling in love with the boy from our dreams is the easy part, but keeping things in a proper perspective is sometimes very challenging...a fierce and relentless competition between a mans inner most desires and his wisdom.



Lau Ta Khun....













The physical and emotional needs of a Thai person aren't any different than a farangs.


</p>

the evolution of ideas you see on this board as newcomers to Thailand become more seasoned veterans, and the reality of getting emotionally mugged by a kid 30 years younger than you starts to sink in, but not heal. We are strangers in paradise here, but this eden has its share of devils too. I suspect that Maurice has quite capably captured the essence of the dark side of this venture, but men in love could hardly be expected to ever acknowldge that.




</p>

I think that mauRICE stayed a long time in Thailand and knows many things about the subject. (Very interesting post !) Anyway, I am sure that every farang believes that his boyfriend is the best one (because he loves him) ... (I believed this too ... ), do you believe that every thai-boyfriend is really thinking the same about his farang ? hmmm !

As (old - for some of us) farang, we can provide to our BF 1) a better (easier ?) life, 2) respect, 3) love ...

I know that many asian people told you that age is not so important, but I think that they would prefer younger farang. (but most of the time, young farangs are not so rich and will not loose his head so easily ... I saw many times boys speaking with some young farangfriends : "Free for you !"

I don't say, Farang cannot meet LOVE with BF in Thailand but we have to be lucid.




</p>

Personally, I find it interesting when people do not think one can ask a question and then not enter into debate and discussion on the answers. Sort of like being told by your teacher: "Sit down and shut up because I have answered your question, and there will be no discussion on the answer no matter how flawed you think (know) the answer to be".



I posted this question because I know there are many on this thread that have been in LT relationships with a Thai (hell, even our High Priestess of relationship doom-and-gloom herself has admitted to being in a LT relationship). It came from a comment from American Teacher about the ups and downs of his LT relationship and some remarks from John, Dodger, and Colmx about the challenges of theirs. I wanted to know what were some of the elements that made these relationships work for the time that they did (and many of them are still working).



We certainly all see enough on why relationships do not work, but very little is ever posted (or written anywhere) on what works in various Thai/farang relationships.



Interestingly, ever time anyone tries to start a thread on the more positive elements of Thai/farang relationships, the cynics attack with all the ferocity of the Death Star. Not matter how politely the insults are put (and I am sorry, but basically stating that my Thai lover and my Thai friends are bread crumbs from upper crust Thai society and that they view me as the bottom of the food chain and just want to cruelly use me, IS an insult), it is still an insult.



When the cynics paint a picture of those of us in relationships of our Thai boyfriends as greedy users and of us as naive fools, then I am not going to roll over and and meekly accept their arguments, nor am I going to apologize to them because I am in love with a Thai man (and my bf is a 24 year old MAN, not a child, and I am a far cry from his benevolent uncle, and I feel creepy at the implication therein).



I personally think those of us on this Board who are in relationships often present the most balanced views of Thai relationships and society because we see both the challenges and the rewards of Thai/farang relationships. We know and have lived both sides of the coin. I have certainly made enough of my own comments about the challenges in such relationships. I think cynics are failed romantics, and I don't want to add to their ranks by not talking about both the good and the bad, but we focus so much on the bad that we often forget that there is good, and that some relationships do work.



Yes Virginia (or Hedda and Maurice), there is a Dark Side. Some people get hurt, and some people get ripped off. However (may the force be with you), there are thousands of Thai/farang relationships that are successful over a period of time. The question on the table is what are some things that make these relationships successful.



Pete


</p>

pete1969 wrote

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>there are thousands of Thai/farang relationships that are successful over a period of time<hr></blockquote>

And the evidence for this assertion is ....??


<hr />We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan</p>

Oh Hedda, I agree with your post almost entirely, and you make my argument for me. Yes, the majority of gay relationships the world over fail in the long term. I have already said that. So, why should those of us in Thai/farang relationships piss and moan about being victimized by Thai men when our relationships fail? My assertion is that we cannot demonetize Thai men because they take our money and then the relationship fails.



That is the hypocrisy I mentioned earlier. Thai men are no more at fault and no worse than the farang in these relationships--plenty of blame to go around. We farang just want to be victims because we spent our hard earned money and then are surprised when our relationships turn out like most gay relationships around the world. And look at Maurice's posts again, Hedda dear: he uses a very broad brush to paint all Thai men in bad terms and nowhere argues that some Thai/farang relationships are successful or that many (most, in my opinion) Thai gay and bi men are decent and good human beings. Yep, I call it cynical or worse.



But some relationships work for one year, two years, ten years, a lifetime. To answer the Colonel, of course thousands of such relationships last for a period of a year or more. We have many on this list, and I can tell you of a couple of dozen more that I personally know about. Do you really think that in the past 30 years that thousands of such relationships have not endured for some time (I use a one year figure because that seems a lifetime in gay relationships).



What are some reasons these longer term-relationships last?



Pete


</p>

... is now circumscribed to "a year" in the context of "long-term" relationships. That is a complete debauch of any meaning, although I see there's some pathetic excuse about a year being a lifetime in a gay context!!! More special pleading for gays. When DavidExCaledon cites the 10- to 20-year relationships, that's a <span style="text-decoration:underline">long-term</span> relationship. In my view any relationship that ends after a year cannot be described as a long-term one, and if the intention was that it be long term then it's a failure, not a success


<hr />We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan</p>

Dodger was probably close to the mark when he commented

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The most significant factor of "age gap" doesn't seem to be getting its fair share of focus in this discussion.<hr></blockquote>



There are obviously some exceptions but generally we seem to be dealing with an age difference of at least 20 to 30 or more years. That would surely create virtually identical problems and attitudes with the boy next door.



Add to that age difference factors including the person being from a different continent, language group, religion etc, leave alone socio-economic disparities.



Is it REALLY so surprising that these relationships are high-maintenance and/or short-lived?


</p>

Pete,



In an effort to answer the question you asked earlier in this thread..."What makes a LTR successful". IMHO, it's the farang who picks the ugly one....half kidding, but couldn't resist.



On a more serious note, I see COMPROMISE as being the adhesive that bonds these long-term relationships together, not unlike any other successful relationship between two people, regardless if they're str8 or gay. You would understand this much better than I, as you and your boy special have seemingly accomplished this for which I commend you, or more appropriately stated, envy one.



Believe me, my comments about the REALITY of LOS and the dynamics of Thai/farang relationships are intended to expose the TRUTH as I see it, with no motivation at all to be a cynic.



Pete, I have a lot more questions than I have knowledge on this subject, but I have to be honest with you. In the past five years I've witnessed hundreds of Thai/farang interactions, if not more, and only ONCE, witnessed a true, honest-to-God, take-it-to-the-bank, successful LTR...Only ONCE! I hear about it all the time - but rarely see it.



If you know of thousands of successful LTR's, congratulations, and I hope one day I can fit in that mass, but until then, I think I'll just continue to enjoy my friendships and romantic adventures as a Butterfly...I don't care much for the ugly ones, and frankly, I don't like the odds.














</p>

[American Teacher-old]

For God's sake (and I am not even religious!)...



A debate is a great thing, but we have to be careful to continually speak about the "I" and not the "We."



I know there is a lot of wisdom on this board, and I know there is a lot of experience as well. However, one person's failure can be another's success; one person's perception can be another's dispute.



For ME (notice the me!), my experiences in Thailand have been broad, but nothing could have prepared me for my relationship with my husband. I disagree that all of you can label us as "farang money, thai support" and I disagree that all Thai Men are alike.



Factors such as personality, age, occupation, upbringing and YES, even love play a significant factor. All the failures thrown about are real, all the deceptions valid -- but don't forget that people are people and inevitably can rise above the expected.



Go to a go-go bar, and get a go-go boy. Spend a night, and get a good romp in the hay. Pay lots of money from a foreign land and get a boy-servant. Strive for more, give more -- and like anywhere in the world, if you are lucky -- you might find love.



I have. And no matter what is said here, that is the way it is. It can happen. It may not. But it very well may.



Be open to all the possibilities.



-Chris<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":">


</p>

I agree that sex seems to be the main reason many relationships break up. At least that has been the main reason for the end of my previous relationships.

I have been single for a long time now and enjoy having sex with who ever turns me on that day and I can convince to play.

I have started two relationships with Thai guys in Pattaya but it has not lasted mainly due to me only being here one month and then gone for 5 months. Now that I am planning to stay 4 months at a time and only be gone one or two months it should be easier to develop more in depth relationships other than just sexual fun and going out together for a week or two.

I am in no hurry to lose my freedom however which how I view being single. I do have several close friends who are Thai that have lasted several years. These are mainly previous sexual relationships that turned to friendships.


</p>

Dodger, not cynical at all to say. As for myself, I can probably think of 10 LT relationships I have seen first hand in LOS, another 20 or so I have heard about on this Board, and at least another 20 my Thai friends are/have been involved in or that their friends are involved in now. As I am fairly new to LOS and mostly based in Phuket, I would think that my experience might extrapolate to thousands of such LT relationships. I do use a low threshold for my definition of LT relationship, merely because I think if a farang and Thai held a relationship together for at least a year, then they did something right for at least a short time, especially when compared with the total non starts of the greatest majority of Thai/farang "relationships." All-in-all just my experience, appreciating that yours has been vastly different.



To answer the question posed in this thread, as for my own relationship, it is going on 10 months, and I think it could last for some time. I base that on the simple fact that I take good care of my bf, he is 24 and wants to be away from the bar scene, and he is smart enough to realize that I am probably his last, best shot at the brass ring.



We do have very good communication, and we compromise on many things. My ground rules are pretty simple: we have to communicate every day, and we have to see other as often as possible (and he has to be totally available when I am in LOS). His one ground rule that I made for him becasue I know the importance of it to him is that I have to provide security in terms of a monthly allowance (which I am hard and fast on in terms of the amount)as well as provide some sense of a better future (and we have mapped out a bit of a three-to-five year plan together that includes education for him and his two sisters, family home renovations, some land and a house together, and maybe some rubber trees and cows for mom and dad). I think us both having stated expectations and goals in regards to money make the relationship much better and less stressful. (And no, flamers--the hateful kind, not the gay-burn-so-bright-kind--,he never made money a stated condition of being my bf, nor ever even hinted that he would not be with me if I did not provide it.)



It also helps that we are both genuinely nice people with good hearts, that we are only ten years a part in age, that he speaks good English and has lived in Europe before and knows my culture to some extent, that he does not lie very much or very well, that we both understand it might be a very long time before we live together full time and are willing to endure a long distance relationship, that we have an open relationship, and that we really do have a good time when we are together. Right now we meet one another's needs with a good balance of communication without suffocating one another. We are learning to trust each other more every day. We have good days and bad (and some very bad), but we are both relatively happy. As time goes by, our expectations actually become fewer, and we put less demands on one another.



I have shared this for what it is worth to anyone and to share my own answer to the question I posed. What works for me and my bf might only work for us and no one else, and I understand that very well. As Chris just pointed out, every person and every relationship is different. I did not post this for anyone's validation or to prove my relationship is different and not doomed for failure.



That said, I do think the bf and I have a good shot at something LT. But there certainly are challenges (mostly different cultures and the distance) that may not stand the test of time. Even if we do break up at some point, I think and hope we might be friends for a very long time. Who knows what the future holds?



Pete



PS-It is also significant to me that in the past four years, the bf and I have both been without a relationship, have each had sexual encounters and flings with many men, and in one another have found for the first time in many years someone we really want to have as a bf.










</p>

if I had 1000 Baht for every farang who ever thought this:



"...I think it could last for some time. I base that on the simple fact that I take good care of my bf, he is 24 and wants to be away from the bar scene, and he is smart enough to realize that I am probably his last, best shot at the brass ring."



Indeed, my guess is that every farang who ever thought he was involved in a genuine realtionship here, no matter how you define it, thought exactly the same thing. It's what we used to call on the old board: the Moulin Rouge choice between the rich maharajah or the poor poet. Place your bets.










</p>

[Hmmm]

I agree that monogamy is not a natural state. But I am not sure that most Thai guys have been around long enough to know that they can have a "real" relationship that is not totally monogamous.



I think that 'most' Thai guys (and I most certainly do NOT presume to speak for anyone's particular bf) agree to an "open" relationship (ie one allowing 'meaningless flings') with a farang for one of several reasons:

1 Because he has no power to disagree. This applies mainly to those relationships based on the dubious mantra, 'he who has the gold makes the rules'.

2 Because he doesn't really love the farang, and wants his own freedom.

3 Because he interprets it as sign that the farang doesn't love him 100%, and he accepts what he perceives to be that reality.



Who generally proposes the 'open' relationship, the Thai or the farang ? And why do farangs propose open relationships to their Thai bfs ? Why do dogs lick their balls ? Same answer.



How many successful long term gay relationships do you think the average gay Thai knows of ? They see as few 'real', successful long term Thai-farang relationships as we do.



But gay Thai guys that we come into contact with don't have the same knowledge of western gay relationship dynamics as we do. Their primary relationship 'models' are their parents (often faithful mother and philandering father), those involving the two-/three-/four-timing money boy, and the 'butterfly' falang (the most common species ?).



In each of those cases, sex with another partner outside the relationship is indicative of a less than 100% committment to their supposed primary partner. So why would Thai guys perceive 'open' relationships as being 'real' ?



Having said that, I do hope that one day the bf and I might understand each other well enough to negotiate a more open relationship. But I am not confident that I could do that without hurting him now. And I don't expect him to propose it any time soon. Until we have that conversation, what I have now is so much better than the butterfly life, so I won't risk it. I have never given him the slightest hint that I am interested in anyone other than him; in fact I am careful not to. He does joke about various western male pop stars that he would like to bed. But unfortunately for him, that ain't gonna happen. And he doesn't really like Thai guys.



And of course there are other risks of an open relationship ... the possibility that one partner might actually meet someone they prefer ... and STDs.



So monogamy may be the death of many marriages, but I'm not sure that open relationships are any more successful.




</p>

ZZZ,



I think you're right about Thai's viewing SEX and LOVE as two different things, for the simple fact that they are two different things.



Personally, I would never consider going to bed with another guy, nor would I expect my Thai BF to, if we had in fact, entered into a committed full-time serious relationship. When, and if I ever, I find myself committed to this type of relationship, it will mark the point in which I am in LOVE with him to the point that I feel confident making this type of commitment, and understand, to the best of my ability, that he loves me as well and has the capability of making the same commitment. At that point, if I have an itch to scratch, he can scratch it for me, and the same like wise.



The scenario you describe, where two people, supposedly committed to each via the bond of LOVE, still have sex with other mates is one of the main reasons why so many relationships fail, regardless of sexual orientaion culture, age, etc.



If the Thai/farang relationship is make-pretend LOVE, as so many appear to be, then I guess everything is fine and dandy. The two partners simply tell each other they LOVE each other, the seasoned farang keeps his fragile emotions in tact, his BF gets to pay the electric bill on time, and all's well. But if it were a REAL relationship, meaning the two actually were in LOVE with each other and committed to each other in a life-long bond, having sex with other people would feel wrong to them. I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen...I'm just saying it would FEEL WRONG, because this violates the very core of the LOVE bond between any two people, and once it's gone...it's gone forever.



There lies the difference between the life of a Butterfly and the life of a totally committed person who's in LOVE, and no one (IMO) has the ability to be both things simultaneously.



I made these remarks knowing full well that I'll probably get slammed to hell-and-back, but that's the way I see it. If you're content with a half-filled cup, God bless you, but there's a full cup waiting out there somewhere, I just know it.








</p>

[Hmmm]

zzz, I agree that Thais have less hangups about sex than those who labour under a J-C religious upbringing. But I think you are arguing that Thais see "sanuk sex" outside a relationship as inconsequential to a greater extent than I would agree to. If that were the case, then Thais would rarely be jealous ... and the only elaboration that point requires is to remember that Thai surgeons are the world's experts on reattaching severed penises ... because Thais are the world's most enthusiastic severers of their philandering partners' organs !



Perhaps Thais judge their own individual flings as inconsequential, but are not generally willing to give their partners the same leeway. And to be fair, they're hardly alone on that.



Although we're talking about "negotiated" open relationships here, I feel that it is often an unequal negotiation, for the reasons I outlined originally ... rather like the wives who have no say in their husband's mia noi.



Perhaps my main thesis could be restated, that Thais don't trust US FARANG to engage in "sanuk sex" outside a relationship without that reflecting a less than 100% committment to them.




</p>

[American Teacher-old]

I have a hard time reading comparisons of "gay relationships" to "hetero relationships."



Relationships are relationships and the boundaries are agreed to (and lived by) the people involved in that situation.



Gay, straight, whatever... Your life and your relationship ar in YOUR hands, and that's all.



I have always believed in total monogamy, and have expected (no, demanded) the same from my previous American lovers. This expectation has not changed -- nor has my behavior.



You see, what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander. We all control our own destiny.



I know many will disagree and many will say gay men are incapable of controlling their sexual urges -- but I SAY, bulls&*t!



-Chris<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o">


</p>

ZZZ,



Please don't think that I was honing in on one single person or relationship when describing my perspective, because I wasn't. I'm simply trying to look at life realistically and doing the best I can to guide myself along the right path. Regarding the value and success of your own personal relationship, only you know what works for you, just as I believe I know what's best for me.



Admittedly, I've only been "Out" for a few short years and don't claim to have the experience or scope of knowledge that most other gay farangs have, but that still doesn't change my perspective. I see the elements of honesty, trust, respect and security that you referred to as being the right ingredients all right, but these things just don't occur by magic. A person has to have the capacity to be honest with himself before he can ever hope be honest with his mate. Easily said...but a tough journey.



Also, If a relationship is relying on a RULE that having sex with another person is OK, as long as it isn't with a person that you care about, how is that CARE thing being measured. What if you unintentionally start caring about the person who's temporarily scratching your back during the process. Do you simply stop and find another person you don't care about to share your bed with? Do you think that most people have the strength or fortitude to call it quits, or does that little voice between his legs call-out for one more lap around the track.



I've been in love the same boy special for 2 1/2 years now, and believe me, being honest with him is, without question, the most difficult task I've ever had in my life. To my amazement, he's still there, waiting to dedicate his time to me during my holiday and our adventures together continue. I say this because my greatest fear is that if I were to ever deceive him by telling him that he is my one-and-only, or attempt to BUY his commitment to me by sending him monthly installments, It's possible that I would end up hurting him somewhere down the road. And frankly, I love him too much for that.


















</p>

Apparently even the people who believe in a god who demands human blood sacrifice (a.k.a. christians) are not too different from other people when it comes to heterosexual LTR. This month's Atlantic magazine reports on a survey that states that roughly the same percentage of believers and non-believers divorce (or if living together, separate). And even most of the Christian Taliban (a.k.a. fundamentalists) reject the words of the big JC himself, when he said that a man who divorces a woman and marries another is an adulterer


<hr />We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan</p>

I have to agree with ZZZ again. There are major differences between how a male and female relate in a heterosexual relationship and two men in a gay relationship.

Men by nature are made to spread the seed. That is the biological role. It is in the genes. It is the base of survival for the species.

The heterosexual model is not working for straight people. Why do we want to copy something that does not work.




</p>

I find it interesting that someone can think that they can derive from a few posts on this Board whether they know if two (mostly) perfect strangers to them are in love or in a "real" or "normal" relationship. Just because something goes against what you want in a relationship or what works for you in a relationship, it has little relevance to what works for two other people. It is also ironic when people make judgments based not on their own real life experience in a relationship but on their ideals of what they think they would like to have in one. IMHO.



For me, I have never been nor will ever be in a monogamous relationship. With my current bf, I have been less sexually promiscuous than at any other point in my life, but I am not monogamous. I know of many LT gay relationships that are open and few--very few--that are monogamous (and I am talking true LT here). I also know of several LT gay Thai/Thai relationships and all are open relationships. That is not to say that every gay relationship has to be open to be successful. Nor do I think one can judge an open relationship as a glass 1/2 full because one does not know the people in it.



Personally, for me, sex is sanuk, a physical act which I enjoy. A bf, or partner, is a much different thing. I can be monogamous to having only one bf (but know people in successful situations with more than one or in polygamous relationships). I can say that I have seen enough variations of relationships to definitely say that different things work for different people. I have even heard persuasive arguments that NO relationship is meant to last forever, monogamous or not. Who knows? As long as the people in the relationship are happy and are living by whatever values they cherish at the time.



Pete






</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have even heard persuasive arguments that NO relationship is meant to last forever, monogamous or not.<hr></blockquote>

Here's another fascinating statement from someone who on his own admission extrapolated from the handful of relationships that he knows about to assert that there are "thousands" of the same - and then says that for gay men "a year equates to a lifetime". Maybe it does when you're 35, but it doesn't convince me that we're dealing with a logical human being


<hr />We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan</p>

My Senior Thesis for my BA in Psychology was titled:



Understanding the natural development of relationships.



What makes LTRs work? Give this a bit of thought;



IMHO, the following letters are the natural progression of ANY relationship:



K

T

L

R

S



These are all in DIRECT PROPORTION to each other.



K= Know

The more you know each other...

Not jus know about each other but know eachother through living and sharing life experiences together. In Spanish we use the words "Saber" and "Conocer" Saber means to know about something and conocer means to know through experience. Head knowledge as opposed to heart knowledge.



T- Trust

The more you know someone the more you can discern whether or not you can trust them and to what degree.



Excresise:

Pick one person in your life and place them on a scale from 1 to 10 on how much you know ABOUT them. Be brutally and totally honest and as objective as you can be. Do you know what their favorite color was when they were 4 years old? Do you know EVERYTHING ABOUT them that could possible be known? If so, place them on the scale from 1 to 10 at a 10. Placing someone on the scale at a 10 really is unrealistic if not an impossibility. If the person you picked is a total stranger or almost a stranger place them on the scale at a 1.



Next using the same person and a similar scale, how well do you know that person through EXPERIENCING LIFE TOGETHER? Were you there when he was 12 and skinned his knee when he fell off of his bike ( or buffalo )? Have you experienced the whole range of life experiences that have helped to make him the person he is TODAY? If so, place him at a 10, again this should be VERY rare.



Now add the 2 numbers together. Now a new sclae, a trust scale from 1 to 20. The lower the number the less you should trust that person with your heart and pocketbook. The closer to the number 20, the more you should be able to trust that person.



L= Love

The anciet Greeks had 3 words for the word "love" Eros, Phileo and Agape. What type of love do you share with the other person? Eros is a romantic love that involves sensuality and sexuality. Phileo is a brotherly or friendship love. Agape is the type of love that a parent would have for a child. Understanding the type of love you share is important because many times partners are confused because they are not clear on what type of love they share and the expectations are different and roles played are different depending on the type.



I like to choose this definition for love, " Choosing the highest good for yourself first and then the other person." All of the emotions are there but a clear understanding of love really is about choice, either conscienciously or not.



Regardless, what follows naturally is this:

The more you KNOW each other, the more you can tell whether or not you can trust each other... The more you TRUST each other the more you will love each other. The more you LOVE each other the more you will...



R= Respect

To respect someone means to hold them in high regard. Often times deferring to them and compromising in matters of conflict. Respect grows with time and patience. It is a deeper understanding and willingness to accept your partners human failings and still believe in their internal goodness. I think the Thai Wai is a very good example of showing a respectful gesture. The higher you place your hands in the greeting the more respect you are showing to the other person. This accepts and acknowledges that we afford differing levels of respect to different people.



S= Serve



To serve some one does NOT mean to be subservient to them. It means being willing to do things to bring the other person happiness and comfort and joy in their lives. When I make a protien shake for my BF while he takes a shower to get ready to go work out...I am serving him. When he calls me to let me know he may be later in getting home from work... he is serving me. we go through our lives serving other people in superficial as well as deep and meaningful ways.



And so...

The more you know the more you trust. The more you trust the more you love. The more you love the more you respect. The more you respect the more you serve.



What causes LTRs to end?

People stop "knowing" each other. They stop discovering new things about each other and the trust slowly erodes over time along with the love, respect and the willingness to serve one another.



What causes LTRs to work?

Every day the pertners are interested in getting to know each other better. They invest time and energy into leaning new things about each other and are willing to work at and allow the relationship to grow.



The main problem with my paper, so said my professor is this:

It presupposes that BOTH parties WANT to be in the relationship. If one person does not want to put in the effort the whole thing can fall apart. But isn't that the way it is with everything?



ajarntrade



PS: I have, in my past life working in the field of Psychology lead many workshops and seminars in building relationships using this model in a variety of settings. $150.00 UDS per hour, thank you.


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Please let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly<hr></blockquote>



Actually, Dodger you are not understanding correctly.



Yes, my bf and I have set some goals together for the next five years; goals for me, goals for him, (mostly his goals), and goals for both of us (mainly a house in LOS and maybe a restaurant in the US if at all possible). It happened gradually over a period of months, and one day we had a long conservation about said goals. These were not set in the context of any quid pro quo agreement, but in a very earnest and loving manner as couples the world over set goals for their future. It is one of the best things I think I have done in my relationship, as we have clear expectations, and he feels very secure (which I know is important for him).



You know aside from his allowance, I will spend about $2,000 US each year over the next five years and will buy a college education for one sister, a technical education for himself and another sister, an actual kitchen for his home (and not an outdoor kitchen), and some small income source to help support his two elderly parents. He could dump me, and I would still feel warm and fuzzy for helping him and his family improve their lot in life. The money is not overly significant to me, and the results of spending it are hugely significant to him. He is my bf; of course, I want him to have a better life. Why should I deny myself that pleasure or him that joy? So that people who do not know either of us will not assign our relationship to a mere money arrangement or call him a paid bf?



You left out that I also expect the bf to have very good communication with me. As I said in another post, the bf and I talk on the phone several times each day for a total of about 5 hours a week. I visit every 8 weeks or so. This communication is essential in our trust building and our knowledge of one another (see the post above). We are a very significant part of one another's daily lives.



Communicating about money and finances is just as important as communicating about most subjects, and IMHO, I believe many LOS relationships fail because there is never any communication on the subject and never any real compromise or goal setting in this area. I've always said money is the huge elephant in the corner of the room in regards to most Thai/farang relationships. However, it is a significant factor in most of these relationships. We ignore it at our peril.



Pete






</p>

ajarntrade,



I think your professor made a good observation, and if you consider the point he was making in the context of a Thai/Farang relationship it becomes even more pronounced.



In the majority of cases, the fundemantal NEEDS of the farang and his Thai counterpart are different to begin with. The farangs primary NEEDS are EMOTIONAL and centered on love, compassion, friendship and sexual gratification. His Thai partners NEEDS are PHYSICAL and focused, first and foremost, on receiving security through financial aid, which in term, provides him merit by supporting the needs of his immediate family members. In this all-to-common scenario, both parties desire a relationship, but on completely different plateau's.



Pete laid out a interesting plan in his earlier remarks, where he would fill his BF's PHYSICAL NEEDS by providing the financial security his BF desires, and in return, his BF agreed to provide the EMOTIONAL NEEDS that Pete desires.

The challenge with this plan is that over time secondary human NEEDS usually start kicking into gear, and

both parties in the relationship start waivoring on their commitment to the PLAN. It's only natural that this would occur through no real falt of either party. It just mother nature laying her claim. The boy finds the chore of crawling into bed and performing every night to become more and more burdensome and the farang finds himself even more isolated than he was before he entered into the relationship. Once this dynamic occurs, the elements of trust and respect are compromised and the polarization in the relationship starts to occur.



A good test for me when contemplating a LTR is to think about the amount of interest I've had in learning about my BF's life, )e.g., where he grew up, what are his favorite foods, where he went to school, information about his siblings, and yes, even what his favorite color is). Then, I'll sit back and ask myself how much interest he's had in learning about ME. If I come to the conclusion that he has showed absolutely no interest whatsoever in knowing ME...then my opinions on this subject will be confirmed.



This is a great topic and a great discussion. It only shows how similar our desires really are. Now, if we can just figure out how to make it work.



Hedda...I wouldn't view shiny cars without any dents as an illusion, they're simply shiny cars without any dents.


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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>They are big spenders (but as not as much as they used to - they've wised up)<hr></blockquote>



They haven't"wised up", Maurice, it's just that the money is tighter up there than it was before 1990.







<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Not all of us can achieve a partner<hr></blockquote>



...being in a relationship isn't an achievement. It may be a gift. If you work at it disappointment is guaranteed.


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Well now, do any relationships persist when there's a strong cross-cultural element? My guess is - not many


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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Well now, do any relationships persist when there's a strong cross-cultural element? My guess is - not many <hr></blockquote>



What nonsense. My father married an Englishwoman!


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Hedda wrote

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Obviously, no one wants to think too much about someone they see for a total of 6 weeks a year; you'd go crazy doing it.<hr></blockquote>

It's not that obvious to me. pete1969 doesn't live here and he's fretting with the best


<hr />We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It won't be me who takes up swords with you <hr></blockquote>



Damn, Pete, what do you say when you <span style="text-decoration:underline">do</span> take up swords?


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This is interesting reading but it does seem like too much work.

I do not want to go through exercises deciding what number to put on how much I know about someone, add that to another number and then decide if I can move on to trust and respect. I used to just hate those seminars and trainings that involve all of this labeling and assessing.

Then it becomes too much of a burden to enjoy.



I just want to enjoy the one I am with and that person to also enjoy me. When that no longer is happening then it is time for a change.

I also do not want to get all involved in too much long term planning because then completing the plan can get in the way of fun. The plan can become more important than the people.

All this planning and exercise taking and analyzing gets in the way of just enjoying the time together.

I do not want to make the relationship like a job or business.


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butterflies don't have mortgages.


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That is very funny that you say that because I have just sold my house here in the USA to get out from under this mortgage and move to Thailand.

Are you one of those psychic people ?


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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>*I would agree with Dodger 100% that if a boy is only in a relationship to get his physical needs fulfilled (security needs), and a farang only to get his emotional needs fulfilled, then it is a relationship that probably would not work. (Please note the probably.) <hr></blockquote>

You know pete, I immediately thought of certain other relationships in nature.

Of course you have parasites where the parasites dwell on/in the host to the detriment of the host. But, you also have symbiotic relationships between certain plants and animals to the mutual advantage of both.

We can see our BF's as Nemo types living amid our stinging tentacles, he prepares our food and we protect him from the harsh realities of life<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

In many relationships though it's often hard to decide which is the anemone and which the fish!


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"I couldn't possibly donate my old clothes to the poor, don't they suffer enough already without having to have the shame of wearing last seasons stuff?"

Edina Monsoon from Ab Fab</p>

I know that the answer may be ..how long is a piece of string ....but can someone tell me what is a reasonable amount to pay a bf each month. I am in a very new relationship for the first time and already the requests for money are coming in even though i was told initially that he was ok financially and wanted none. Think an allowance may be the answer..plan to be in thailand about four months of the year with him. Thanks


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Teerak has a 'partner' credit card, with strict instructions not to spend more than B5000 a month (unless there is an extreme emergency) - he rarely if ever comes anywhere near that amount - and what he does spend using it is usually for books and study materials.



He has a scholarship that covers his uni fees. He has a part time job and I pay his monthly rent (B2500) for a nice room in halls.



I also pay health insurance for him.



He costs me less in a month than a night out in London would have done. And he never asks for more.










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Wide Traveler,



I'm not trying to be cynical on this topic (again), but you may want to give this matter a little more thought before jumping in with both feet.



I just wired Boy Special some money as a Christmas gift yesterday, as I have done for the past 2 years. He is my best friend in LOS, my lover, and the guy who's always standing front-and-center in of my dreams. Giving him this gift allows him to spend the holiday season with his family in Udorn Thani, and also covers 2 or 3 months of his room rent, which makes life a little easier on him.



With this exception, I never send him any money during the year, and he never asks. If he wants a farang who's willing to make that type of commitment, frankly, there's plenty out there to be had.



He left the sex-for-hire business two years ago and earns a modest income working at a karaoke in Naklua. I would like to think that I was HIS ONE AND ONLY GUY, but IMO, that's not being realistic. He is well above the average in the looks department (even for a Thai) and it's quite possible that he's receiving monthly;y support payments from another farang...hell, it could even be Pete for all I know....just joking pete (tongue in cheek). But if more cows start showing up on his grandmothers lawn I'll have to wonder...LOL.






















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