Elusive Long Term Happiness in LOS ??

[x in pattaya]

I thought it might be a good idea to extract the thread that got tangled in Monty's Ting Tong. Someone wondered whether expats were happy here or just pretending to be.


After nearly 10 years living in Thailand I have to admit the bastards have got me down.
I refer to the hassle that almost anything here comes attached with. ...
My point is how many of us expats really enjoy living here and how many are pretending its not so bad?
Picking up from a comment made there made about people who seem to find so much to complain about:


They don't see that it's a problem with them, the other person is the problem.

Yes,I totally agree with that. People who have a never-ending list of complaints do seem to feel that the world needs to cater to them. Unfortunately, for many farang, the majority of Thais they encounter are service-providers, whether doormen, waiters, beach vendors or bar boys. This only encourages the farang in the belief that they themselves should be treated as princesses who are entitled to lash out at anyone who fails to please (an impossible task).

This also is the reason so many fail to maintain a long-term relationship with a Thai, assuming that's something they want. The relationship is almost bound to begin on a decidedly unequal footing and for some it's impossible to accept any lessening of their exulted status as the relationship ought to be developing. Then, of course, when the Thai tires of playing the role of indentured servant, the farang announces to everyone that it's quite impossible to have a meaningful relationship with any Thai. It is never the self-righteous farang who is to blame for the endless succession of Thai "partners" who have deserted him, it's always them, the perfidious little sods. And, any farang who attempts to counter this argument by personal example, stating that he has been in a relationship for a number of years, is simply dismissed as delusional and fooling himself, if no one else.

Nonetheless, as one ages and becomes less active and may have some health problems to deal with, the coping skills one has successfully used all his life may not suffice. Even if you have been able to maintain a relationship with a younger Thai man, he may not be equipped to deal with, or even understand, changes in your personality, all of which can lead to a further feeling of isolation.

I don't mean to make this all sound inevitable and depressing. As I say, I'm pretty happy with life in Thailand and have been able to maintain a fairly stable relationship with a wonderful Thai man who often drives me up the wall, as do I him, but I think it is important for anyone contemplating retiring in Thailand to not go overboard thinking that it'll seem a never-ending exotic paradise for the next 5, 10 or 20 years. It's probably also important (although I admit I find this extremely difficult) to recognize that the anger, the rude behavior of others may be the consequence of their unhappiness, loneliness and home sickness. If nothing else, it may be a useful lesson for us on how not to behave , not that anyone reading this would ever act like that. And if they did, I'm sure it would be someone else's fault.

I Love you girls

Buy

If you were a miserable old sod back in your home country , you will still be miserable, even in a place like Thailand.
You take yourself with you where ever you go. Simple and true.

The trick is to avoid, at all costs, the farangs who complain about everything and everybody, who demean
and belittle Thais to make themselves feel better, who brag about taking advantage of those much weaker
than themselves and finally anyone who tells you how important they are (were), how popular they are,
how much money they have and how much everything they buy costs. They will bore to you an early grave.

Many of the older gay farangs never had a gay relationship as they were in the closet and or married or just
so hideous they couldn't get arrested. They have idealized images of what a gay relationship is and make
all the classic mistakes when they finally find a boyfriend and of course blame the boyfriend.

[TrongpaiExpat]

How very strange to be in complete agreement with very wise words from the cat/lick yet he seems to be one of the very persons that he is describing to be avoided at all costs?

First off, I'm happy someone took my first comments and made a new thread on it. I was getting around to it but delayed too long. Again, thanks.

I can't help feel most of the comments about complaining old misfits was directed at me. Believe me, I am only too aware of how easy it is to get into a crabby old bastard character and be unable to see any good left in the world.
That is not me. I still enjoy watching a bee hunt his daily nectar or a flower slowly opening over a few days period.
I love to scratch a dog behind its ear and hunt the best looking rambutan fruit in the small markets.
Further, I am the same person that lived 60 years in the USA as I am today living in Pattaya. What has changed is the more difficult means necessary to complete daily maintenance of me and living quarters.
The seemingly unnecessary hassles such as getting and paying correct bills, getting the food you order, navigating the dangerous streets, and that is just a few that residents I'm sure can add to.
Believe me, I try to avoid conversations with other expats that sit and complain endlessly about lazy, stealing Thais. It gets old very fast and does not speak for the whole nation. I only stated that the bit 'extra' it takes to live in a country not your own, is taking its toll on me. And by the way, this is not the first country I have been an expat in. But it is the longest. Now lets hear from others on what their life is like living in Pattaya or near. Amen

[Doug]

Presently I come to Pattaya twice a year for 2 months each time. I am always seeking better ways to fit in and form better relationships with my Thai friends. I do make a lot of mistakes but thankfully they are usually small.

Almost every morning I take a short walk down the soi to Stewart's B&B for coffee and toast. It's not so much for the food but for the jovial banter with the farang regulars and the odd guest. From these crackers I find a wealth of information some of which I find useful and the rest discarded. Spending some time with expats can be educational but I find an hour a day usually sufficient.

The rest of the day I seek the company of Thais. In the evening when sitting in my usual spot in Sunee, it is Thais who stop by for a drink. While sitting there I see the same group of farang who meet for a drink then go to a restaurant then off to a boy bar together... always together. I may do that once a week but I do seek my fun with Thai youth.

I found it often costs less to dine with a group of Thais at their restaurant and pay for the whole thing than eat in a farang place with other farangs. And for me it's much more fun.

I don't have a long term relationship but the welcome mat is out a my door and many boys come knocking for a wide variety of reasons. I have a list of criteria before I can give myself totally to a relationship...the main one being that we both must understand and accept the needs of the other. Often I am frustrated and disheartened but I only have to remind myself that these feelings show I am alive and I rejoice in that. Nothing here in Toronto compares.

DELETED

[Smiles]

" ... I can't help feel most of the comments about complaining old misfits was directed at me. ... "
Just a small point Boogyman, but from my reading of the opening post I don't think X-In-..... was directing his points about congenitally grouchy ex-pats toward you specifically, but toward a certain general 'construct' of farang behavior in Thailand which is reasonably common, but thank christ (for us close-to-retirees), not universal.

For myself, I was quite happy to read your perspective, and to hopefully see it become more fleshed out on this new thread. I may have a go myself once I've dried off from the monsoon which just hit this small corner of BC.

Cheers ...

I wonder what it must be like to go and live in a place for years, because you want to, instead of because you have to. I cant waite for the forty odd years to pass before I can really do that myself, it must be thrilling. In the meantime I am picking up lots of tips from this board. Certainly it sounds like you must have a broader interests other than boys, boy bars, and booze to make it work.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Certainly it sounds like you must have a broader interests other than boys, boy bars, and booze to make it work.

Most do but......

I have one farang friend that has been living in Thailand or more accurately Pattaya and lives for the bars and the boys. He never sets foot outside of Pattaya and has been doing the bars for the past 7 years on an almost nightly basis. He is extraordinarily happy. He does drink too much but keeps relatively healthy. Why should anyone fault his lifestyle, it works for him.

Then I have another Pattaya centric friend that lives in Pattaya for 6 months out of the year and is not sober one day in those 6 months. Then he returns to the US and works and stays sober making money to return to Pattaya and begin all over again. He does like the boys but more often than not either can't remember what he did with them or just falls asleep.
He tells me he will never live full time in Pattaya as the 6 months he returns to US to work and stay sober is what is keeping him alive.

Most do but......

I have one farang friend that has been living in Thailand or more accurately Pattaya and lives for the bars and the boys. He never sets foot outside of Pattaya and has been doing the bars for the past 7 years on an almost nightly basis. He is extraordinarily happy. He does drink too much but keeps relatively healthy. Why should anyone fault his lifestyle, it works for him.


Maybe for some when you reach a certain age thats all you want to do, if this happens to me though I will consider castration. Its like the desire has solidified in time, all consuming even when the old cock or even the body can no longer make use of it.

[x in pattaya]

x in pattaya wrote:
[quote:16ycmcss]And, any farang who attempts to counter this argument by personal example, stating that he has been in a relationship for a number of years, is simply dismissed as delusional and fooling himself, if no one else.
I think this statement is a tad unfair. I know several guys who have had relationships of 4, 5 and 7 years with their Thai partners, some even living together for many years, and they are perfectly happy, and it appears to be working. [/quote:16ycmcss]

I think you've misunderstood what I meant. I have had a relationship with one Thai man for more than six years and we are still quite comfortable with the arrangement. I fully expect that our relationship will continue until I am reduced to a puff of smoke over Wat Chaimongkrol's crematorium. Actually, I've convinced him that I will continue to keep an eye on him after I pass through the crematorium. He doesn't regard that as an idle threat. I even know of one other farang who seems to be clinging onto a steady LT relationship which was formed ages ago ... during the Eisenhower administration, if I'm not mistaken. :drunken: ... well possibly not that long, but even after all these years they seem likely to be a permanent aspect of the landscape for ages to come.

In the past when discussions about LT relationships arose on PattayaGay or one of the other boards, some people ... in particular one person whose name I'll camouflage with the randomly chosen sobriquet "Hedda" ... would swear up and down that he had had nothing but bad experiences trying to maintain a relationship with a Thai and with a dismissive swish of her feathered boa, she would settle on her throne and pronounce that it was impossible for anyone to have a genuine relationship.

If I, or anyone else for that matter, who was in a LT relationship tried to say that it might be difficult, but not impossible, we would be told that it was quite impossible, we were kidding ourselves, etc. etc. Although she actually knew nothing about us other than what was revealed on the boards, she knew we were either lying or living in a fool's paradise. Apparently she found cold comfort in assuming if something was denied her, it would naturally be denied everyone.

X in Pattaya... how elegant you write. So far you own this thread. Good job.
Now, where are the others out there? Been around the block (or houses as our friends the Brits say) and have some experiences under your belt? Me and others I'm sure want to hear from you. Mr.Moderator, I await your 2 Canadian cents also. Hope you dry out soon. OH god. That doesn't sound right, does it?

[catawampuscat]

Long term relationships have a chance of success if the farang lives in Thailand at least most of the year.
I feel sorry for those who believe a horny young man will wait 11 months until they return to have sex even
if he is well provided for. It is a fantasy and being in Thailand doesn't mean one will know that much more.

If long term implies monogamy, dream on. I have a current long time relationship that works well with 5 or 6
visitations a month and no sleepovers, no karaokes, no friends, no visits to the family, no mobiles, no TVs,
no gold and I pay him as we go. It works like a dream for me and he can fuck his brains out when he is not
with me and so can I.
I have several other long term relationships but with many month gaps sometimes and it all works with the pay
as you go system. If I front some money, it gets worked off and I can be very generous when I am
made very happy.

If you think it is about love, look in the mirror and try to remember back 40 or 50 years ago when you were the boys
age and how you lusted after men in their golden years. Forget about bald, fat, hairy, boring, smelly, bad tempered
and all the other attributes many of us gay farangs have in spades..

[x in pattaya]

X in Pattaya... how elegant you write. So far you own this thread. Good job.
Now, where are the others out there?

Most people who tell me it's time to shut up and listen aren't nearly as polite as you. :clown:


try to remember back 40 or 50 years ago when you were the boys
age

In the two relationships I know, the age differential is no where near that large and the Thai men in question could only be referred to as "boys" in a giddy stretch of the imagination. I do agree that a 65 year old farang and a 19 year old Thai would have an onerous task ahead of them if they thought they were in a LT relationship.

[Smiles]

" ... Mr.Moderator, I await your 2 Canadian cents also. Hope you dry out soon ... "
Just for the record (and yup, I'll be in this soon ... as I dry out) . . . I am a Canadian, and I was wet, but I am not a Moderator of this Board. I used to be once so long ago, but no more.

There are only 2 Mods on Sawatdee: ElephantSpike (Also Admin ~ you can hear his New England voice by clicking on "Forum Tour" and a Brit, jinks who moves, maipulates, edits, divides, and destroys threads quicker than the Tokyo bullet train.

Back to topic ...

Cheers

[Brad the Impala]

Long term relationships have a chance of success if the farang lives in Thailand at least most of the year.
I feel sorry for those who believe a horny young man will wait 11 months until they return to have sex even
if he is well provided for. It is a fantasy and being in Thailand doesn't mean one will know that much more.



All relationships have to start somewhere, they are not fully fledged at birth. My relationship started eight years ago when I was visiting Thailand two or three times a year. We are now together in Budapest.




I have a current long time relationship that works well with 5 or 6
visitations a month and no sleepovers, no karaokes, no friends, no visits to the family, no mobiles, no TVs,
no gold and I pay him as we go. It works like a dream for me and he can fuck his brains out when he is not
with me and so can I.
I have several other long term relationships but with many month gaps sometimes and it all works with the pay
as you go system. If I front some money, it gets worked off and I can be very generous when I am
made very happy.

These don't read like long term relationships. A relationship involves a commitment and emotional connection. What you describe reads as a customer/rent boy transaction.




If you think it is about love, look in the mirror and try to remember back 40 or 50 years ago when you were the boys
age and how you lusted after men in their golden years. Forget about bald, fat, hairy, boring, smelly, bad tempered
and all the other attributes many of us gay farangs have in spades..

The perfect example of "I can see clearly, and if you have got something that I haven't, it must be because you can't see as clearly as me!"

x man. If you think I was telling you to shut up, you got it wrong. Or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. It was meant only to say you have something to say and you do it well. And then I added a plea for others to add besides the few of us that are writing on this topic. You Own This Thread - is a NICE thing to say.

Smiles - If I was more alert I would have known your a member and former moderator. I need more coffee. I think I will boogy off and get some.

[x in pattaya]

If you think I was telling you to shut up
No problem.

Nonetheless, I do sometimes become overly enthusiastic in debates and, quite unintentionally,at times seem to be trying to swamp some discussions. I'm a recovering Message Board Addict and have to fight the urge to slip back into old habits.

I agree it would be nice to hear from other long term residents.

Does anyone here attend either the Pattaya Expat Club or Pattaya City Expats Club meetings? Any comments on how worthwhile either is? Are they gay-friendly?

I attended a few meetings of one of those two clubs ( can't remember the name, why are they so dam simular anyway)?
Gay does not come up.... I nearly fell asleep during the discussions. Mostly just people flogging, selling, hyping their product. Maybe a few good speakers from hospitals etc. But again, they are selling something.
Just my opinion.

[Wesley]

Long term may be a relative term for us over 50, I may well croak tomorrow and that would certainly end my relationship. I, in the mean time however, plan to live life as full as possible and with as many long-term young men as possible for as long as it will last. I generally find myself in a relationship for about 4 years at a time with a young college guy then he graduates and begins his own life taking care of younger boys. Life for me had just begun at 30 and 26 to 40 were by far my best years with two 8 year relationships with younger men. I love Thailand and wish I were there more often. When not there I mange to find some young man in my back yard to keep me company for a few years at a time while I await my demise. I have yet to take one of these young men with me to Thailand for fear I will not get them to leave. So, I have had a rich full life at 56 and have a few more years left, I hope! But, if those years never come, I can honestly say I had a good time on my way out. If I live and I at least hope I will; I will certainly put my last few years into Pattaya. Happy or not I can leave here knowing I had it good and had the best life has to offer an older guy. I was married to a woman at 18 and left her for a man at 26. Since then I have had a wonderful time being as gay as I can. And in LOS with as many boys as I can find to keep me busy. In the mean time the young men who need some help getting though college seem to make me happy. They seem to be happy, and I am sure I am. So, if I wake up and it was all a dream it was a good nightтАЩs sleep for me.

Wesley

I cannot speak as an expat living in Pattaya, but as an expat of sorts in Asia, I can definitely see where Bogey is coming from.

I find that I spend most of my time actively trying to avoid other expats, at least straight ones, I can't exactly explain this habit. Most are corporate sluts this is true, and all my friends are Chinese or Asian, plus a froggy, who is my dearest nemesis and much beleaguered tennis partner, but for some reason all us expats seem to think we are better than each other and the Chinese think they are better than all of us, only they pretend not to, maybe it is just a direct reminder of who we all are that spooks us silly.

[x in pattaya]

I find that I spend most of my time actively trying to avoid other expats, at least straight ones, I can't exactly explain this habit.

It's comforting to hear you say that. There are a few farang in my building and others who I see regularly at the beach who I will offer a quick greeting, but I've yet to run across anyone I've wanted to get chummy with. I think I also fear befriending someone who will become an attachment difficult to pry loose.

Of course, in my case at least, age is part of the issue. Forming friendships when you're young seems effortless, when you get older it often seems too much effort to bother. Almost everyone I consider a good friend is either someone I knew at university or in work situations.

[Smiles]

" ... age is part of the issue. Forming friendships when you're young seems effortless, when you get older it often seems too much effort to bother ... "
Yes, well the Love-of-my-Life (the latest that is) has been forewarned that he's just about IT!

I've spent too much energy on this next to un-needy sod to start all over again ... or ~ as you suggest ~ bother all over again. The thought of sliding desperately into butterflyhood is not a happy one (Smiles as New Wowpow, when Wowpow succumbs), and the mental image of haunting 'Tawan', or ~ to pick at random, 'My Way' in Patong ~ year-over-year is as depressing as can be imagined.

And that's just the dynamic with Thai guys!

Slowly dipping one's wick into the 'friendly' gossipy caranavale of aging farangs and their Boy-of-the-Week revelatory exotica over gin&tonics at Panorama ( LMTU, Catwampuscat etc etc come to mind ) is even more appalling, and I'm quite certain this particular effort would be enough to conjure up many a neuroses one never suspected they had.
We shan't bother.

The odd foray into Bangkok to take in the Brandenburg Concertos at some old Christian cathedral would be more than welcome, as would meeting up with Jack Kerouac's ghost on some french wrought-iron balcony in Luang Prabang ( " ... that ain't writin' Babe, that's typin' ... " ) . . . or sailing the length of the Mekong in a properly-turned-out longtail boat steered by a handsome ex bicycle taxi driver from Sukhothai (photo below) and that and that and that, to infinity.
Lots of things to explore in south Asia, rather than the soused psyche of some bulbous-nosed farang ( 'it' sporting larger pores than anyone has a right to own ), on a patio chair, under a patio lantern, sharing "off" stories with anyone who'll listen. Now that's an effort!



Our driver from Sukhotai. I'd take him anywhere up the Mekong if the above-mentioned Love-of-my-Life kicks me to the curb.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/sawatdeephotos/1_Sukothai.jpg


Oh yeah, and of course the ultimate reason for all this anti-effort, Fear of Curb-Kicking, and smugness towards patio-sitters/sippers . . . the competition for certain Sukothai bicycle-taxi drivers. Little does he know .... :blackeye: The beloved posing on the River Kwai:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/sawatdeephotos/rimkwai8.jpg


Cheers ...

[Wesley]

I like X generally avoid expats of any kind or country. They are generally much to prudish and much too interested in my private life than makes me comfortable. So French Russian or Brits I seem to have only a few like Jinks and Robert that I feel are friends. Here in Asia I avoid them as much as possible when drinking or not. It is nice to speak in my own language occasionally but, even that can get old rather quick when the conversation gets personal and I feel like my chair is much to small for me to remain comfortable while they rattle on about Church and politics of the moment. I find listening to the background Music to be much More enjoyable than listening to them rattle on about Armageddon or Iraq. So, its not really a mater of how Nice they are its more about we just seem to have little In common, more than just speaking English.

Seems there is a competion here to see who can write the most beautiful. Sometimes that makes it difficult to know what the hell your trying to say. Do you like Thailand or do you just put up with it? I don't come here to read no fancy talk - I come here to hopefully get some opinion on the question at hand. What this thread started out by x to be.

Happiness is something to be strived for. The pursuit of happiness. Does anyone ever really attain it? If so, enjoy it, because before you know it, some kind of shit will happen.

[x in pattaya]

Do you like Thailand or do you just put up with it?

I love it and all its idiosyncracies, unreservedly, unconditionally, irrefutably to death us do part.

But then I lived in rural Africa for 24 years and urban Pakistan for a couple and that was just around the time of 9/11.

Compared to those bureaucratic nightmares Thailand is a piece of cake on the things that might be considered on the downside and sheer joy on all the things that we all find attractive.

Sure, when you switch on the computer and find your adsl connection is down, as I did this morning, it's easy to get grumpy, but I just did the mai bpen lai two-step, went off to Jomtien and it was up and running when I got back.


enjoy it, because before you know it, some kind of shit will happen.

I suppose that is my fear. Either I will allow trivial things like the adsl screw-up to get to me or the baht will rise to 5 to the dollar or sitting on a beautiful beach with the water lapping the shoreline while beautiful half-naked Thai boys parade about will cease to entrance. But I'm pretty sure if the last item ever happens I'll have flat-lined anyway.

[TrongpaiExpat]

I hear stories from a lot of farangs living in Thailand about having had this or that break down and trying to get it fixed. Some person named Khun Moe who tells you one thing, then refers you to Khun Larry and finally Khun Curly comes along and breaks it for good and tells you it's fixed.

I guess what they forgot was in Farangland there are just as many Moe, Larry's and Curly's if not more. Overall, I have found the level of competency better than where I lived in Farangland.

It's not about Thailand is about learing to cope with frustration as a retired person who now has a different perspective on life.

I once tried to send a telegram from a third world country to America. It did not arrive after one week, verified by phone.
I went to the office to complain and was told by a cherubic-faced young lady behind the counter, "but it was so cheap".
Can you argue with that logic? Hahahahahahhaaaaa

[bing]

This thread seems to have long legs. I think the happiness factor is best summed up in the Tony Soprano and AJ's conversation in the last episode of 'The Sopranos.' It boils down to the fact that you have to make the most of the good times and reflect on them often. The trick is to make the ordinary translate to good times, and to expect them at any moment... Is it not strange that "Carpe Diem" comes to us from the classics and resonates with the same vibrations.