Is Palenstine finished?

I arrived back in the UK a few days ago from Palestine (I stay there every Spring) and in my first report about the situation, before the Gaza troubles reached their zenith, I ended with a quotation from James Baldwin; "The Fire Next Time."
I was right.
Hamas was fairly elected but was systematically undermined by the US, EU and Israel. The US sponsored a coup by some (not all) elements in Fateh, notably Mohammed Dahlan, a war-lord sponsored by the Israelis. It failed and the popular Hamas has won.
Had Abbas been supported by the US when he was elected, Hamas would not have won the parliamentary elections. But instead, he was hung out to dry. The settlements increased, the annexations, intensified, the cruel oppression-assassinations, political child-abuse, destruction of property, much of which I witnessed and filmed while I was there, continued. The Israelis refused to talk with him, even though he was their preferred leader. Palestinians were told that, by electing, a pro-Israeli their lives would improve.
It was a lie.
The impoverished population of Gaza (now poorer than West Africa) lost patience and voted for the disciplined, honest Hamas who vowed to resist the colonists.
Even so,Hamas declared a hudna (truce) with Israel but Israel, egged on by the US, continued to attack, depriving the population of electricity, sewage and food and medicine. Then Hamas tried to accommodate the US and entered into a power-sharing agreement with the neutered Abbas.
Then came Dahlan's coup. The US thought that , by providing weapons to him, they would ensure his success. They are so ignorant of Palestine that they didn't realize that Palestinians would not accept one of their sons being armed by their enemies.
You will not read the above in the UK and US media; correspondents do not travel like I do. They do not listen or observe, preferring to gather news from the the bars of 5* hotels in Israel.
What I write is what I see.

Nelson,

Thanks for taking the time to write. I am sure we would all appreciate additional information from your perspective. The politics in Palestine are indeed difficult to follow only having the standard press to rely on. Give us more when you have time.

[Bob]

.
the disciplined, honest Hamas

Much of what you say is accurate, Nelson, but I do believe you provide a rather one-sided view. Hamas is both an exceptional social service network and also the sponsor of many terrorist attacks (suicide bombings and the like). While I can understand their sometimes justifiable rage, they ain't exactly the boy scouts.

[Dboy]

Much of what you say is accurate, Nelson, but I do believe you provide a rather one-sided view. Hamas is both an exceptional social service network and also the sponsor of many terrorist attacks (suicide bombings and the like). While I can understand their sometimes justifiable rage, they ain't exactly the boy scouts.

car bomb = terrorism

cluster bomb = warfare



Dboy

I try to keep out of Palestinian politics while I'm there; my concerns are with human rights, particularly the rights of children. I've some blood-curdling reports of Israeli child- abuse with which to keep readers entertained at a later date.
However, I know enough (and I write from a secularist point of view) to provide a little background on the rise of Hamas.
1) Hamas was funded in the late 80s by Mossad (Israeli Secret Service) and the CIA to undermine Arafat's secular nationalism. Sound familiar? This has backfired on them. Serves 'em right.
2) Its 1989 Charter calls for the elimination of the Zionist Entity but ever since, as it has gained more adherents, it has softened its stance. The position , as I understand it (as an observer) is that it won't recognize the Zionist Entity (state) while Palestine is under occupation. It is prepared to observe the de facto existence of Israel on its pre-1967 borders once the occupation of Palestine is ended. And this includes the end of the occupation of East Jerusalem, which is now being ethnically cleansed (I've been filming this) as well. I think Hamas's position is entirely rational in this respect.
3) Hamas was elected because many Fateh supporterters voted for it. These included Christians, some of whom I know personally.
4) It is an Islamic movement but, compared to the Shias whom the US brought to power in Iraq, it is a moderate one, particularly in women's rights and freedom of religion. By the way, it is Sunni not Shia. Bush and Blair have yet to discover this. How fortunate we are to have such experts controlling our destiny.
5) It is enormously successful, as has been pointed out by a previous contributor, as a charitable organisation. Gaza is the most crowded place in the world and among the poorest. Over 50% of its poulation are children.

And here I shall return to the area of my expertise. Children throughout Palestine are astonishingly politicised. They are ready to die for liberation because they have nothing to live for under occupation. They are brutalised by the Israeli state; their childhood has been taken from them. I find it difficult to put into words the suffering and cruelty I was witnessing only a week ago when I was in Bil'in, filming the annexation of a village's farmland.
Mark my words; you read it here first. "The Fire Next Time."

My view is that Fateh's best hope lies with Marwan Baghouti. But he, like half of Hamas's elected MPs, is languishing in an Israeli prison. Over 50% of Palestinian males are political prisoners at one stage in their lives.
But don't let me get started on the plight of the little kids in Israeli custody.
Not yet, anyway.

[ikarus]

Why would not your post your anti-semitic bulshit on Hedda hopper, where it truely belongs?
Spike, why do you allow this pathological, filthy antisemite to spread his outrageous nonsense and lies here?
Hamas is terrorist organization: this is recognised throughout the world.
Just ban this fucking, miserable, bulshiting frick from here.

Why would not your post your anti-semitic bulshit on Hedda hopper, where it truely belongs?
Spike, why do you allow this pathological, filthy antisemite to spread his outrageous nonsense and lies here?
Hamas is terrorist organization: this is recognised throughout the world.
Just ban this fucking, miserable, bulshiting frick from here.

Sounds familiar, all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism? Wrench your self away from the therapists couch and into the 21 st century mate.

[ikarus]

.
the disciplined, honest Hamas

Much of what you say is accurate, Nelson, but I do believe you provide a rather one-sided view. Hamas is both an exceptional social service network and also the sponsor of many terrorist attacks (suicide bombings and the like). While I can understand their sometimes justifiable rage, they ain't exactly the boy scouts.
Hamas (Arabic: حركة حماس; acronym: Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement"; the word "Hamas" means "strength and bravery" according to its charter on MidEast web[1]) is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist organization that currently (since January 2006) forms the majority party of the Palestinian National Authority.[2]

Created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada, Hamas is perhaps best known outside the Palestinian territories for its suicide bombings[3] and other attacks directed against Israeli civilians, as well as military and security forces targets. Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[4][5][6] Vehemently anti-Israel and, according to some, anti-Semitic[7] its charter states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."[8]

Since the death of Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat, Hamas's political wing has entered and won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya, and Nablus. In January 2006, Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the ruling Fatah party took 43.[9] Hamas's militant stance has found a receptive audience amongst Palestinians; many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as a legitimate resistance movement defending Palestinians from what they see as a brutal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.[10] Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing extensive welfare programs, funding schools, orphanages, and healthcare clinics, throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.[11] The Palestinian territories have experienced internal conflicts for many years; since Hamas's election victory, particularly sharp infighting has occurred between Hamas and Fatah, leading to many Palestinian deaths.[12][13]

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[14][15] the European Union,[16] Israel,[17] Japan,[18] and the United States,[19] and is banned in Jordan,[20] Australia,[21] and the United Kingdom[22] both list the militant wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. According to the US State Department, the group is funded by Iran, Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.[19] In a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes and crimes against humanity" that have been committed by its members.[23]

[Aunty]

You, sir, do your cause no favour. Fuck Hamas, fuck the Plalestinians, fuck Isreal and fuck you!

I neglected to mention one attribute of Hamas which has contributed to their popularity amongst the dispossessed. It was brought home to me a couple of weeks ago when I was travelling from Ramallah to Occupied Jerusalem and approaching the Qalandia checkpoint, a huge, Kafka-esque concrete structure (paid for by US tax-payers) in which sullen, bored and contemptuous Israeli colonial soldiers control the movements of untermenschen, a group off which, as an assumed Christian, I am a member while I'm in Palestine.
Suddenly, we were forced to stop by the Abbas cavalcade; anyone who has been in Africa would recognize the scene- tinted windows on smart cars, nervous security men with fingers on triggers, lights flashing.
He had been to another humiliating meeting with his Israeli colonial masters, begging (perhaps) for food to be allowed into Gaza, or some piece of annexed land to be returned to its owners...who knows? We do know the answer was "No".
Anyway, as Abbas returned to the Mukata, I pondered on the lives of Hamas leaders who refuse to move into government villas, preferring to live with the ordinary folk who elected them and with all that it entails in Gaza; periodic electricity (it was 100 degrees some of the time I was there), destroyed sewage works, Israeli drones (armed ones) circling day and night, artillery shells from the allegedly "withdrawn" Israeli colonial forces, the threat of assassination. I am a secular supporter of Palestinian nationalism , believing that Jewish, Christian and Islamic fundamentalism are problems not solutions.
But , I have to say, there is a lot to be learnt from Hamas. And this is why so many non-Islamists voted for them.

[Smiles]

" ... how many of those Palestinians are available for short time? ... Come on NELSON,dont hold back son,did you get a root there or what?... "
Good point. I've had some thoughts along these lines as well.
But as long as our Troll is asking the tough questions ...

Cheers ...

I've had some thoughts along these lines as well... was Nelson last in Thailand or/and posted on Thai matters? There's a limit to how much one can care before Compassion Fatigue sets in

[ikarus]

You, sir, do your cause no favour. Fuck Hamas, fuck the Plalestinians, fuck Isreal and fuck you!
Aunty,
I do not have any cause here. In fact, I am absolutely not interested to discuss this issue with people like Nelson. He is a very sick man and nothing change his views until one day his ass will be blown by islamic terrorists in Palestine, Pattaya or London where he lives. The only reason why I post in this thread is that I am absolutely not willing to share cyberspace with people like Nelson. I think Spike mentioned on more than occassion that he is Jewish. If this is really the case, then Spike how possibly can you allow posts which slander your own people on the cyberspace you have total control of? You may not remember that but America was quite anti-semitic place in forties and fifties. It took a lot of effort to change that. Jews in US for a long period of time perceived Israel as a kind of safe heaven where they always can find a refuge if their fortune changes in the land of opportunities. It is only during last years part of US Jewish population (understandably) started take many things for granted. But nothing is for granted. Anti-semitism as a cancer which grows everywhere, including good old USA.
While we hardly can change a world around us (where apparently even quite intelligent people like Aunty do not want to see a problem), we need to do what we can and shoul.
I just appeal to Spike once again: ban Nelson. If he reemerges again with his anti-semitic views ban him again. And again and again. Do what you can and should.

If he reemerges again with his anti-semitic views ban him againArabs are Semites also. You mean anti-Jewish. I hope ES doesn't descend to that level. There's quite enough censorship around. I'm not surprised however that you side with Aunty Tourette, another strong advocate of censorship

[Bob]

I hope ES doesn't descend to that level.

Ol' Spikey is too smart for that. While, as noted before, I disagree with Nelson's somewhat biased view of the topic (and, what the heck, there could be a reason for that), he's presented himself and his position in an intelligent and non-disparaging manner. That's no basis for either censorship or banning. And, Nelson, I hope that the few responses that fall short of the adult level do not discourage you from offering your views.

[Smiles]

This probably does not need saying, but . . . I have disagreed with just about everything Nelson/Oliver has said over the years regarding the Palestinians. IMHO he is a blinkered pseudo-intellectual ~ lovingly so ~ who sheds niagaras of tears for Palestinians, yet cannot conceive of any response save glee when Israeli children hop aboard a bus bound for heaven (within Israel) at the hands of brain-washed Palestinian youth.

But banning him from the Board for his opinions?
First of all, nothing he has said above (or ever for that matter) violates the Board Guidelines ... and more importantly, I don't think ElephantSpike would even contemplate such a thing, and I would hope, and assume, that many would walk away in shame if such a reason was given for banning a Member.

Ikarus has always been one of the most vile-tempered members of this, and other Boards . . . his prissy little shit-bombs of venom above are hardly out of character, and certainly not a surprise.

Cheers ... ( agreeing with wx40afp & Homintern twice in 24 hrs is indeed a red letter day :geek: )

[Marsilius]

Let's be accurate here.

I disagree with everything Nelson has to say and personally think that Islamism is the greatest threat facing the western world and its values today.

But Nelson is not, as far as I can see in his posts, being anti-semitic / anti-Jewish. He is being anti-Israel. Remember that not all Jews are Zionists. Indeed, I seem to recall there were even a few Jews at the recent anti-Israel summit hosted by the Iranian government in Tehran.

I neglected to mention one attribute of Hamas which has contributed to their popularity amongst the dispossessed. It was brought home to me a couple of weeks ago when I was travelling from Ramallah to Occupied Jerusalem and approaching the Qalandia checkpoint, a huge, Kafka-esque concrete structure (paid for by US tax-payers) in which sullen, bored and contemptuous Israeli colonial soldiers control the movements of untermenschen, a group off which, as an assumed Christian, I am a member while I'm in Palestine.
Suddenly, we were forced to stop by the Abbas cavalcade; anyone who has been in Africa would recognize the scene- tinted windows on smart cars, nervous security men with fingers on triggers, lights flashing.
He had been to another humiliating meeting with his Israeli colonial masters, begging (perhaps) for food to be allowed into Gaza, or some piece of annexed land to be returned to its owners...who knows? We do know the answer was "No".
Anyway, as Abbas returned to the Mukata, I pondered on the lives of Hamas leaders who refuse to move into government villas, preferring to live with the ordinary folk who elected them and with all that it entails in Gaza; periodic electricity (it was 100 degrees some of the time I was there), destroyed sewage works, Israeli drones (armed ones) circling day and night, artillery shells from the allegedly "withdrawn" Israeli colonial forces, the threat of assassination. I am a secular supporter of Palestinian nationalism , believing that Jewish, Christian and Islamic fundamentalism are problems not solutions.
But , I have to say, there is a lot to be learnt from Hamas. And this is why so many non-Islamists voted for them.

For some reason the West is unwilling to take the blame and let the peoples of Gaza starve to death, so are rallying around trying to avert what they suppose will become a humanitarian disaster area, at least they have a conscience. I wonder if the Republicans, that terrorist organisation from the West will see fit to recognise the same? Soon?