Nation - Prophet cartoon protests in Bangkok

Thai Muslims stage peaceful protest in front of Danish embassy
Published on Feb 06 , 2006

About 500 Muslims men protested in front of the Danish embassy in Bangkok Monday morning, calling for an apology from publications that published cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed.

"Today we came here to condemn the Danish government and Danish media that published our prophet Mohammed in comedy cartoons," said Mulis Timasen, who organized the protest with a group calling themselves Muslims Love Peace.

He added that publishing the cartoons showed the media in Denmark have contempt toward Islam. "From now on Denmark has become an enemy of Muslims," he added.

About 100 police blocked the small road in front of the embassy as the protesters chanted and lectured for about 90 minutes while holding banners demanding Denmark and the EU apologize for insulting Islam.

In case anyone wonders where the Danish embassy is: it is just a stone's throw from The Babylon. :compress:

Ahh ... now I get it ... Damn the whole country because of the actions of a few.

Off topic I know ... but I offed a charming lad (in BKK) recently - he comes from way-down-south. Anyway I was complimenting him on his very fine circumcision and he replied: "Oh yes, all of my bothers are cut and all of my sisters have been crimped."

Ahh ... now I get it ... Damn the whole country because of the actions of a few.

What happened to the famous Muslim sense of humour and self-irony? :angryfire:

Things are decidedly tense here in Indonesia.
Just returned to Semarang after having the weekend in Jakarta

In Semarang I feel quite safe and comfortable because I am well known here - but in Jakarta many people did look more hostile at me than they normally would.

The Jakarta Post has many issues in print on this and letters to the editor are most unflattering to the western Media

I am sure it will die down soon - but really do we need to further antagonise the Muslim world with this cartoon crap?

[bucknaway]

I am just happy to be sitting here at home in the USA right now.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r1363645636.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r399679231.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/nm/20060206/2006_02_05t133027_450x300_us_religion_cartoons.jpg ?x=380&y=253&sig=yZR.DKzGIaJdHHQV0YL9LQ--

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060205/i/r1489932145.jpg

Thai Muslims Offended by Rap Song Quoting Quran; CDs Recalled

By ALISA TANG
The Associated Press

BANGKOK, Thailand - A music distributor recalled two Thai rap CDs from stores Tuesday after Muslims complained the tracks insult their faith.

An article on the Thai-language Muslim Web site http://www.muslimthai.com said a song recorded on CDs in 1998 and 2005 "clearly insults the Quran," the Muslim holy book.

It said the CDs contain verses from the Quran and "the Quran strictly forbids the use of its verses in songs."

The Council of Muslim Organizations of Thailand said rapper Joey Boy and songwriter Kamol Sukosol Clapp, also known as Suki, should not have used the Quranic verses.

The song, "Maya," was released in 1998 on a Joey Boy CD called "Bangkok Boy" and appeared again on the 2005 compilation "The Conclusive Collection."

Sony BMG Music Entertainment Thailand has recalled both CDs, and they will probably be destroyed, said Saharat Vanchompoo, the Sony marketing director.

Joey Boy and Clapp apologized at a news conference to "all Muslims" for producing the song.

"I did not intend to insult the Quran in any way," said Joey Boy, whose real name is Abhisit Opasiemlikit. "If I knew that there was an insulting sound or element in my song, Suki and I would not have created it."

The rapper, the songwriter, and Sony BMG's Saharat said they have requested a meeting as soon as possible with Thailand's top Muslim leader to formally apologize.

In Europe, drawings of the Prophet Muhammad published in a Danish paper have sparked violent protests in the Muslim world.

Funny, but I can't recall riots, death threats, embassy burning etc when the Taliban blew up those 2 000 year old Buddha statues in Afghanistan.

[elephantspike]

Funny, but I can't recall riots, death threats, embassy burning etc when the Taliban blew up those 2 000 year old Buddha statues in Afghanistan.

That was the first time I had ever heard of The Taliban, was when that story surfaced, and I happened to be in Thailand at the time (spring 2001). It upset me deeply to see the desecration of those Sacred Buddhist Images, but whenever I tried to bring it up with Thais, they always said something like;

"Don't speak of this. It is stupid. Forget about it".

A lesson to be learned, I think, for all of us in their attitude:

"Mai Pen Rai"

I read in the paper today (Japan Times) that an Iran newpaper is holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the prophet Muhammed.

there are almost a billion Muslims on the planet. You can't judge them all by the actions of the minority. You couldn't say the Westboro Baptist Church or even The Pope speaks for all Christians.

[Dodger]

Pearle,

I agree with your point...
You can't judge them all by the actions of the minority.,
and it's too bad THEY can't realize the same logic.

Regardless of anyone's religious or spiritual beliefs, people who run around chanting death threats to the whole free world because of a fucking cartoon deserve what they get. Furthermore, that idiot in the picture with the towel wrapped around his face with the sign saying' Remember what happened on 9/11" is insulting to me, and I'm not running around condemning the whole Muslim culture...I would just like to see someone jerk that towel off his head and slap him silly.

Problem in this matter is that a few danish imans travel around MiddleEast with papers, telling many wrong things about Denmark. They said that there were 120 cartoons, but there were 12. They showed a picture of a man with a pignose, saying it showed Muhammed, but it was a picture from a french pignosefestival last year. They tell, that the danish Quenn hate muslims, but in a the book they took it from, the translation was wrong.
They told that the government own the newspaper JyllandsPosten. Wrong, the government do not have any newspapers.
They said that government was rigthwing extremist. Wrong, the government consist of liberal party and the conservative.
But what make the things explode, was that some? send SMS to Middleeast, that danes were burning the Koran at the cityhallplaza in Copenhagen. Totally wrong. If anyone have tried, they would imidiately have been arrested by the police.
No one have even talked about burning the Koran.
So this matter is made by some extremist groups, who want the confrontation between msulim and the western world.

[dab69]

I would rather merge picture one of the towelie with picture three :D

My superstition can kill your superstition :P

The evil of religions trying to destroy religions is a central river of History. I was thinking recently that one of the main reasons for war being so popular and common is the belief that if you die you go to heaven, Valhalla, or engage sexually with 70 or more willing virgins (ugh) - also in heaven - or simply have another go on the wheel of life (promoted no doubt if you were brave in battle). Concepts invented by religions. Thus people have hope after death. Ergo kill. Now if there were no religions at all and people realised that death is oblivion in much the same way as one's awareness before birth... what were your thoughts in 1672?, for example.... I rather think the punishment for killing would be very nasty. There is a single life for each of us. To be killed in the name of religion is the central obcenity of any Religion, and surely is in direct opposition, I think, to every originator of a religion and certainly an affront to God in all his presumed guises. Such reactionary behaviour is largely the result of brain washing from birth, and a fatal ignorance out of not doing one's own thinking for oneself. Just a thought.

Off topic I know ... but I offed a charming lad (in BKK) recently - he comes from way-down-south. Anyway I was complimenting him on his very fine circumcision and he replied: "Oh yes, all of my bothers are cut and all of my sisters have been crimped."

Where did you off him from? So difficult to find circumcised Thai boys here . . . .

In case anyone wonders where the Danish embassy is: it is just a stone's throw from The Babylon. :compress:



Stone's throw...excellent use of imagery Silom!

[Smiles]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/sawatdeephotos/Images/72virgins.gif


cheers ...

I'd have though the guy with towel saying "Remember 9/11" actually did get the point. Islam is the only religion to glorify suicide bombers. The cartoons are defending the right to give offence in the cause of free speech. There's a female politician in Australia who has supposedly caused offence to Catholics by wearing a T-shirt with the slogan "Get your rosaries off my ovaries" during a debate on the "morning after" pill. The fact is that firmly-held beliefs will often give offence to someone. In a Western democracy religious beliefs are just part of the marketplace of ideas, and taking offence is not a inevitable start to banning the expression of the offending statement/cartoon/whatever. Moslems don't get that, and that is why democracy and Islam are essentially antithetical. Bush and his chums don't get it either, which is why they are so shocked when Moselms in the Middle East given the right of self-determination choose an theocratic rather than a democratic solution

Islam is the only religion to glorify suicide bombers

I take issue with Homintern's statement. Perhaps he should stop watching Fox long enough to learn some facts about the majority of the Followers of Islam rather than the radical few.

In Islam, several things are clear:

Suicide is forbidden. "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).

The taking of life is allowed only by way of justice (i.e. the death penalty for murder), but even then, forgiveness is better. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33).

In pre-Islamic Arabia, retaliation and mass murder was commonplace. If someone was killed, the victim's tribe would retaliate against the murderer's entire tribe. This practice was directly forbidden in the Qur'an (2:178-179).

Following this statement of law, the Qur'an says, "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement" (2:178). No matter what wrong we perceive as being done against us, we may not lash out against an entire population of people.

The Qur'an admonishes those who oppress others and transgress beyond the bounds of what is right and just. "The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice. For such there will be a chastisement grievous (in the Hereafter)" (42:42).

Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.

The predominant theme in the Qur'an is forgiveness and peace. Allah (God) is Merciful and Forgiving, and seeks that in His followers. Indeed, most people who spend time on a personal level with ordinary Muslims have found them to be peaceful, honest, hard-working, civic-minded people.

I sincerely believe you are right on the above UF. Whilst I assert to be a militant secularist, I still acknowledge that sincere followers of the major religions acquire a deep decency' probably from the ethic of their founders, whilst the perverters of faiths are often self-agrandising and egotistical.

The Koran doesn't talk about the 72 virgins who await the martyrs for the faith then, Fungus old boy? The book Why I am not a Moslem (a critique of the moral vacuity of Islam written by someone who isn't one any more) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087975 ... e&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879759844/104-7786613-6261524?v=glance&n=283155) is widely available in the Moslem world? The Grand Ayatollah Khomieni didn't issue a fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's murder? The Koran doesn't call for the death of all Jews and other unbelievers? The 9/11 attacks have been widely and universally condemned by all Moslem religious leaders? And given the sensitivities of many of our readers in particular, the Prophet Mohammed was not a practising paedophile later in his life?

The Koran doesn't talk about the 72 virgins who await the martyrs for the faith then, Fungus old boy?


It has long been a staple of Islam that Muslim martyrs will go to paradise and marry 72 black-eyed virgins. But a growing body of rigorous scholarship on the Quran points to a less sensual paradise тАФ and, more important, may offer a step away from fundamentalism and toward a reawakening of the Islamic world.

The Qu'ran is beautifully written, but often obscure. One reason is that the Arabic language was born as a written language with the Qu'ran, and thereтАЩs growing evidence that many of the words were Syriac or Aramaic.

For example, the Qu'ran says martyrs going to heaven will get тАЬhur,тАЭ and the word was taken by early commentators to mean тАЬvirgins,тАЭ hence those 72 consorts. But in Aramaic, hur meant тАЬwhiteтАЭ and was commonly used to mean тАЬwhite grapes.тАЭ

Some martyrs arriving in paradise may regard a bunch of grapes as a letdown. But the scholar who pioneered this pathbreaking research, using the pseudonym Christoph Luxenberg for security reasons, noted in an e-mail interview that grapes made more sense in context because the Quran compares them to crystal and pearls, and because contemporary accounts have paradise abounding with fruit, especially white grapes.

If itтАЩs virgins, 72 seems a bit too many, while if its grapes, than why only 72?

More from the same article:

LuxenbergтАЩs analysis, which has drawn raves from many scholars, also transforms the meaning of the verse that is sometimes cited to require women to wear veils. Instead of instructing pious women тАЭto draw their veils over their bosoms,тАЭ he says, it advises them to тАЭbuckle their belts around their hips.тАЭ

Counterpoint:

тАжNicholas D. Kristof, in this shortsighted and ignorant article, claims that the Muslims line up for martyrdom mission because they expect to be welcomed by 72 virgins in heaven. If the martyr-wanna-beтАЩs were to realize the prize in heaven for martyrdom was the Aramaic тАЬHurтАЭ (white grapes) and not the Arabic тАЬHurтАЭ (described variedly as a beauty, enchantress and virgin), argues Kristof, then Muslims would probably would not be in such a rush to kill themselves.

This, of course, assumes that the old Hollywood stereotype of the Arab as some sort of a perverted, illiterate, maniacal sex-craving fiend is applicable to all those Muslims who volunteer for suicide missions. Take away the virgins, KristofтАЩs argument suggests, and the fiends would simply take their salivating chops to the next whore house instead of the next bomb belt or Kalashnikov.

Never mind the years of humiliation at the hands of Israelis. Never mind the oppressive, violent regimes supported by the United States. Never mind the stripping away of their sovereignty that has left them naked to exploitation since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Take away the virgins, replace them with grapes, and all of this is resolved.

This kind of thinking, which treats the Arab and Muslim as some kind of a hapless, backward, pathetic, and sick creature is exactly the reason why Americans continue to misunderstand and, therefore, prolong the violent tussle which turns friends into foes.

Those who argue that the Qu'ran, or its misreading, are the cause of violent Islamic fundamentalism forget that for over three generations the most violent Arab and Muslim groups coming out of the Middle East were socialist and secular.

It may be a sorry excuse of an article, but the grapes v.s virgins point has been debated for a long long time now.



The book Why I am not a Moslem (a critique of the moral vacuity of Islam written by someone who isn't one any more) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087975 ... e&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879759844/104-7786613-6261524?v=glance&n=283155) is widely available in the Moslem world?

There are many books that are not available to members of the Islamic society

This list is taken from the table of contents of Banned in the U.S.A. by Herbert N. Foerstel. It shows the fifty books that were most frequently challenged in schools and public libraries in the United States between 1990 and 1992.

Impressions Edited by Jack Booth et al.
Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck
The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)
The Chocolate War by Robert Cormier
Bridge to Terabithia by Katherine Paterson
Scary Stories in the Dark by Alvin Schwartz
More Scary Stories in the Dark by Alvin Schwartz
The Witches by Roald Dahl
Daddy's Roommate by Michael Willhoite
Curses, Hexes, and Spells by Daniel Cohen
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle
How to Eat Fried Worms by Thomas Rockwell
Blubber by Judy Blume
Revolting Rhymes by Roald Dahl
Halloween ABC by Eve Merriam
A Day No Pigs Would Die by Robert Peck
Heather Has Two Mommies by Leslea Newman
Christine by Stephen King
I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou
Fallen Angels by Walter Myers
The New Teenage Body Book by Kathy McCoy and Charles Wibbelsman
Little Red Riding Hood by Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm
The Headless Cupid by Zilpha Snyder
Night Chills by Dean Koontz
Lord of the Flies by William Golding
A Separate Peace by John Knowles
Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut
The Color Purple by Alice Walker
James and the Giant Peach by Roald Dahl
The Learning Tree by Gordon Parks
The Witches of Worm by Zilpha Snyder
My Brother Sam Is Dead by James Lincoln Collier and Christopher Collier
The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck
Cujo by Stephen King
The Great Gilly Hopkins by Katherine Paterson
The Figure in the Shadows by John Bellairs
On My Honor by Marion Dane Bauer
In the Night Kitchen by Maurice Sendak
Grendel by John Champlin Gardner
I Have to Go by Robert Munsch
Annie on My Mind by Nancy Garden
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain
The Pigman by Paul Zindel
My House by Nikki Giovanni
Then Again, Maybe I Won't by Judy Blume
The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood
Witches, Pumpkins, and Grinning Ghosts: The Story of the Halloween Symbols by Edna Barth
One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
Scary Stories 3: More Tales to Chill Your Bones by Alvin Schwartz



The Grand Ayatollah Khomieni didn't issue a fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's murder?

The Grand Ayatollah Khomieni was a nutter




The Koran doesn't call for the death of all Jews and other unbelievers?

Please quote the verse or passage where the death of all Jews is required




The 9/11 attacks have been widely and universally condemned by all Moslem religious leaders?

The 9/11 attacks have been widely and universally condemned by mostl Moslem religious leaders and Government leaders



And given the sensitivities of many of our readers in particular, the Prophet Mohammed was not a practising paedophile later in his life?

And every Pope was Holy and abiding to the law of Ihe Bible and the Word of God? How many Muslim Clerics have been charged with child molestation compared with Catholic Priests?

You are tricked in to believing some interpretations of the holy book while the conspiracy behind it rules the course of history. You believe that the scribes in Medina wrote Allah's dictations through the voice of the 'great prophet' (he could not write himself). But you are deceived. They created a religion that, among other carefully aimed darts, forbade idolatry (ANY depiction of religious persons and symbols or other persons or creatures, INCLUDING publishing cartoons of Mohammed). The Christian depiction of religious figures (statues, crucifixions, manger sets), Hinduism's 300,000,000-strong pantheon, and Buddhism's "idolation" of its creator, wrongly perceived, were all thus implicitly CONDEMNED. Officially, this was to curb the worship of animals, but in reality the design was to eventually conquer those forces, by the sword as necessary, both to the east and west.

If Allah's followers are merciful and forgiving then why do suicide bombers and hijackers kill innocent bystanders many of them women and children so mercilessly? Why do not the leaders of Islam condemn such atrocities?

If they are to treat all equally then why do they force their own women to stay home, concealed from society, AND western women, brutally held hostage, to wear scarves over their heads and forced at gunpoint to read words from teleprompters condemning western nations on recorded video tapes? Why is the author of the satanic versus called for murder, at that by Islam's own leaders?

Yes, to "end" idolatry is as much the justice you speak of as the cutting off of a thief's hand or foot. This is witnessed by history by Islam's expansion to the east through Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and northern India where sadly, often nary a trace of the indigenous cultures remain. "Blessed be to God those who sever the heads of the idolator" wrote a witness to the 'jihad against idolatry' that reached as far as modern day Bangladesh/northern Burma.

Yes, it is believed that ALL those that die serving his cause will get, as the will of God himself, the 72 virgins.

Last Updated 6/12/2005 12:39:26 PM

INDONESIA: Muslim leaders condemn suicide bombing

Muslim leaders attending a weekend seminar in Jakarta organised by the National Council of Clerics, have denounced the use of suicide bombings, and say they have no place in Jihad, or holy war, in the country.

www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1524276.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1524276.htm)

Iraqi leaders condemn attacks on churches, Vatican mission


Compiled by Daily Star staff
Tuesday, January 31, 2006

Leaders from Iraq's Muslim and Christian communities on Monday condemned the coordinated spree of attacks launched a day earlier on at least four churches and the Vatican mission to Iraq.


www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=21836 (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=21836)

Scholars condemn suicide bombings
By Shahid Malik
BBC News, Lahore


The Pakistani prime minister survived a suicide attack in 2004
Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.
The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community.


news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm)

Muslim leaders in call for action

Muslims protest against terror at a rally in Leeds
Britain's top Muslims have branded the London suicide bombings "utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic".
A joint statement of condemnation came as 22 leaders and scholars met at the Islamic Cultural Centre, in London.


news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4684885.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4684885.stm)

They created a religion that, among other carefully aimed darts, forbade idolatry (ANY depiction of religious persons and symbols or other persons or creatures, INCLUDING publishing cartoons of Mohammed). The Christian depiction of religious figures (statues, crucifixions, manger sets), Hinduism's 300,000,000-strong pantheon, and Buddhism's "idolation" of its creator, wrongly perceived, were all thus implicitly CONDEMNED. Officially, this was to curb the worship of animals, but in reality the design was to eventually conquer those forces, by the sword as necessary, both to the east and west


"Thou shaft have no graven images" (Exodus 20:4).

There are few differences in Theology between The Qu'aran and The Bible - and these relate mostly to Jesus Christ and whether or not he was the Son of God or simply a Prophet as was Mohammed

The fantaics make mountains out of molehills with their own incorrect interpretations resulting in the bloodshed of millions

[quote]There are few differences in Theology between The Qu'aran and The Bible - and these relate mostly to Jesus Christ and whether or not he was the Son of God or simply a Prophet as was Mohammed

Their main dart! The blashemous Christians giving a prophet the status of God when there can only be one God, Allah!!!


The fantaics make mountains out of molehills with their own incorrect interpretations resulting in the bloodshed of millions[/quote:1qqbew6r]

Yes, but why is it so easy to misinterpret the Kuran?

It may be worth repeating a comment I don't think I've made on this incarnation of Sawatdee Forum. The Axis of Evil is Judaism, Christianity and Islam. From the perspective of an atheist (which I am) the differences between the three monotheistic religions are mere doctrinal quibbles. Islam does appear more wedded to an ideology of death and martydom than the others, as contemporary events show, and its initial spread was entirely carried out by the sword ie. violence. The intellectual flowering that its apologists proclaim occurred once, almost only in one place, and hasn't been seen for the last four hundred years. Just as Europe went into the so-called Dark Ages in early medieval times and emerged only when the Renaissance occurred (with a lot of help from that Moslem intellectual world), Islam is in its own Dark Ages and sorely in need of Renaissance and Reformation

Oh - another thought worth repeating. The US is a deeply dysfunctional society, so listing 50 books its legislative nutters have considered banning is, for me, simply more evidence of its intellectual membership of the Axis of Evil

However. The English playwright Johnny Speight, who wrote that marvellous television series Till Death Us Do Part, also wrote a play called If there weren't any blacks you would have to invent them. My own view is that as God doesn't exist we've had to invent him - and should invent him - and that's also a view held by people such as Douglas Adams, author of The hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. There was a recent long article in The Atlantic that held that "One: human beings come into the world with a predisposition to believe in supernatural phenomena. And two: this predisposition is an incidental by-product of cognitive functioning gone awry". Those articles can be found, along with others in a similar vein, on my website under the Religion Tab - http://au.geocities.com/homintern/

Speight's If there weren't any ... contains a lovely conceit. Queen Victoria forms a lesbian relationship with Florence Nightingale, who then dresses in male drag and becomes John Brown. ( http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=conceit )

[Jetsam]

Isn't one of the cartoons : Mohammed stopping some suicide killers at the port , and saying please go back we run out of virgins :drunken:

If Muslims can't laugh about that , they really lack any sense of humor :cherry:

[Bob]

Sure is fun to listen to religious comments on the Sawatdee Gay Thailand forum......NOT!

With 5,000+ religions proclaiming they are the one and only one true religion, the inescapable conclusion is either (1) 4,999 of them are wrong or (2) all 5,000 are wrong. I ascribe to the latter belief. Being an atheist, Col, requires way too much brain power to disbelieve. Being an agnostic is much easier and elevates the "What, me worry?" status of my prophet, Alfred E. Newman.

As Jesse Ventura should have said: A man needs a god like a fish needs a bicycle. Makes perfect sense to me. :cheers:

Islam does appear more wedded to an ideology of death and martydom than the others, as contemporary events show, and its initial spread was entirely carried out by the sword ie. violence.

Not a big difference at all, I agree :pukeright: . And the fact that the last flowering was 400 years ago gives me very muchh more comfort as wedll :pukeleft:.

When we make prohections like yours we are assuming that history will progress logically, but history is an delusion of homo sapiens and therefore be illogical. it wasn'y just one period of expansion, ok, maybe 1000 years was just once. The SEEDS are there like they always have been.

Maybe it will go on long like you project. I HOPE you are right!

[dab69]

shouldn't we repost the cartoons here for all to evaluate?

[elephantspike]

Absolutely not! I don't want to be part of the problem. Let's not fan the flames. Don't forget that Thailand is something like 5% Muslim.

INDONESIA: Muslim leaders condemn suicide bombing

Muslim leaders attending a weekend seminar in Jakarta organised by the National Council of Clerics, have denounced the use of suicide bombings, and say they have no place in Jihad, or holy war, in the country.

www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1524276.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1524276.htm)

Iraqi leaders condemn attacks on churches, Vatican mission


Compiled by Daily Star staff
Tuesday, January 31, 2006

Leaders from Iraq's Muslim and Christian communities on Monday condemned the coordinated spree of attacks launched a day earlier on at least four churches and the Vatican mission to Iraq.


www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?editio ... e_id=21836 (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=21836)

Scholars condemn suicide bombings
By Shahid Malik
BBC News, Lahore


The Pakistani prime minister survived a suicide attack in 2004
Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.
The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community.


news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4556619.stm

Muslim leaders in call for action

Muslims protest against terror at a rally in Leeds
Britain's top Muslims have branded the London suicide bombings "utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic".
A joint statement of condemnation came as 22 leaders and scholars met at the Islamic Cultural Centre, in London.


news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4684885.stm
Meaning what you say and not saying what you think

British imam praises London Tube bombers

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 38,00.html (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2036538,00.html)

The article to which you refer also says:


Confronted by The Sunday Times yesterday, Ali denied praising the bombers. When asked whether he believed that their actions were good, he said: тАЬI donтАЩt know what they died for, thatтАЩs what I said . . . According to our faith, everything depends on what their intention is. I donтАЩt know what their intention is.тАЭ

I agree that is what he said when he was confronted by the Times reporter but it is what he said when he thought he was talking to the undercover reporter.


"A LEADING imam in the mosque where the July 7 bombers worshipped has hailed their terrorist attack on London as a тАЬgoodтАЭ act in a secretly taped conversation with an undercover reporter".

An undercover reporter of Bangladeshi origin, posing as a student and with no press credentials and no newspaper links - just someone who lied about his status to get an interview and who illegally recorded that interview without the knowledge or consent of the Imam

Sounds like a fine, creditable and believable member of the community to me

Any chance the tapes were doctored to present an incorrect account of the discussion?

Then again it might just be a legitimate account of what was said.

Newspapers do beat up stories to sell papers - don't they?

The article to which you refer also says:


Confronted by The Sunday Times yesterday, Ali denied praising the bombers. When asked whether he believed that their actions were good, he said: “I don’t know what they died for, that’s what I said . . . According to our faith, everything depends on what their intention is. I don’t know what their intention is.”

Uncle Fungus, are you REALLY supporting the Iman's defense of those murderous acts?

So the Iman says "that as long as their intentions were good, then their murderous acts will be judged as good, as well". I just can't buy that as any rational argument, not at all. Blowing bombs in subway tunnels and flying planes into buildings is just wrong, no excuses.

Politicians (Imans in the arab world) do deny saying things to some people, while whispering it to other people, don't they?

Uncle Fungus, are you REALLY supporting the Iman's defense of those murderous acts?

Don't be insolent

And don't put your own words into my mouth

Leave that to undercover reporters of Bangladeshi origin, posing as a students and with no press credentials and no newspaper links

I condemn murder of all kinds and reasons

I gave many reports showing that the religeous leaders throughout the Muslim world also condemned the attacks

pitrevie responded with an isolated incident possibly taken out of context and obtained in an unauthorised and illegal way

So perhaps If you agree with the methods used to obtain the interview from the Imam then perhaps you then agree with the wire tapping used by the Bush Administration?

You can't have it both ways!!

I condemn murder of all kinds and reasons

The we do agree on something.

Since I referred to what you quoted in the Sunday Times about THEIR interview with the Iman, then I presume your other comments about a Bangal reporter' interview are directed elsewhere.

And certainly I disaprove of George Bush's illegal spying on Americans!

The we do agree on something.

And so do most definately over a billion decent, hard working, civic minded, law abiding, God abiding Muslims throughout the world

Remember that the Muslim's Allah is the same God as as the Christian's God

Remember that the Muslim's Allah is the same God as as the Christian's God
And neither of them exist