How much do Thai money boys value their life?

Hmmm. Food for thought.

More or less than a Mexican City puta or Chicago drug dealer?

http://www.slate.com/id/2164855/fr/flyout

Another question, if we really knew how much the money boys value their life, would this assist us in determining the proper tips?

Actually, I think its interesting economically.
I think most middle class Americans would say their lives are worth several million dollars, maybe something absurd like a billion. Myself, I think my life is worth a million or two. As a young man, probably more.
I bet most Thai money boys don't value their lives that much.
Most people never really think about that, and I think its interesting.
Because these decisions are made all the time. How much do you think Bush really thinks a dead US soldier is worth? How about a dead Iraqi child? These valuations DO MATTER.
Never said I favor FREE health care. It would be paid by the tax system just like roads, education, military, and medicare. Those who say we can't afford it, I say we can't afford NOT TO. Also, I am an expat in Thailand. I do not expect to ever benefit from US national health care personally. Its just the right thing to do, and something the US must do to stay competitive in the world economically. The current US system is not only killing and bankrupting American people (more dead each month than total 9/11 deaths) but also deeply damaging American corporations like General Motors.

BTW, jaafarabutarab,, you are a liar AND a coward AND an idiot. I see you online right now reading this post! Please do really put me on ignore. Thank you.

[Bob]

Actually, I bet most Thai money boys don't value their lives that much.

I'd bet you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Paraphrasing jafaar, what a moronic post.

Actually, I bet most Thai money boys don't value their lives that much.

I'd bet you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Paraphrasing jafaar, what a moronic post.
Thats your opinion. I don't really understand how you could think the economic aspect of people's lives isn't relevant or interesting, but so be it. I am guessing that you didn't even read the linked article. Thats really brilliant. Maybe you just don't like to THINK about anything from a different perspective.

The article was the focus of the post. These economists quantified how much Mexican whores and Chicago drug dealers valued their lives. Since many of us love the Thai money boys, I honestly wondered where they would fit on the spectrum.

Myself, I think my life is worth a million or two. As a young man, probably more.
I bet most Thai money boys don't value their lives that much.
Most people never really think about that, and I think its interesting.

You're pathetic!! Sad very sad indeed.

Buddhists have lots of lives so I suppose that devalues any one.

A suicide bomber expects to finish up in Muslim Paradise ( 70 virgins each - is that a day? )

Many would give their life readily to protect a loved one - Mother - child.

Curious and interesting question - I am thinking i through

Myself, I think my life is worth a million or two. As a young man, probably more.
I bet most Thai money boys don't value their lives that much.
Most people never really think about that, and I think its interesting.

You're pathetic!! Sad very sad indeed.
Why exactly? What disturbs you about this. I find the reactions to this almost as interesting as the original question.

Hi,


There is no monetary value.

I value my life and the lives of all precious to me as.......PRICELESS!


Best wishes,

Hi,


There is no monetary value.

I value my life and the lives of all precious to me as.......PRICELESS!


Best wishes,
Yes, thats very idealistic. But governments and businesses do place values on people's lives. Remember the victims of 9/11? Those deemed high value people (based on education/professions) got much bigger settlements than those deemed low value. This isn't about whether this is right or wrong. Just about the way things are in the real world.

Here is another example of this REALITY. How little did the US government value the life of a poor black boy (now dead because of the low value placed on him by society):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02539.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/02/AR2007050202539.html)

[TrongpaiExpat]

Jingthing may be one of our stranger posters but he hardly deserves being called names like asshole.

Insurance companies and the courts use these economic principles for wrongful death settlements. It's not a very interesting economic study in my opinion but resorting to attack posts on any poster is in my opinion is impolite and who likes impolite people?

[quote="wowpow"]Buddhists have lots of lives so I suppose that devalues any one.

A suicide bomber expects to finish up in Muslim Paradise ( 70 virgins each - is that a day?


Wasting his time coming to Pattaya then!

I don't mind if people call me names. This way, they show their true colors.
I have noticed that Thailand is an anti-intellectual society. Thais don't read books except for comic books. Their education system is substandard and discourages original thinking. Perhaps this attracts the same kinds of expats and tourists. The negative reactions to my post are from people who haven't given a moment to THINK about what it is really about.

Back to the question, lets compare Thai money boys to Mexico City putas.
The article suggests the putas value their lives at five times their annual earnings, or 50 thousand dollars.
Would we apply the same formula to Thai money boys?
If so, wouldn't that imply that a star boy would consider his life to be worth much more than a one off a month boy?
Or in the Thai culture, would the formula be totally different, not five times earnings, rather a much different factor?
I have already contended that most middle class Americans would probably value their lives at several million dollars at least, that is much more than 5 times the average American middle class earning power.
Thats shows us that there is no simple formula that you can apply accross cultures and even professions within cultures (see the point about Chicago drug dealers). So the money value Thai money boys place on their lives is still a mystery to me.

Trongpai/Jingthing,

I fully understand the post . Furthermore, I think a lot of the readers do too.

Trongpai, I fully get the point, A judge will calculate present worth, present salary, anticipated average life span and salary rising with inflation, Health circumstancess, Family circumstances.


However, if we revert to the start of the initial post by Jingthing, it does not explain clearly, to be fair, and I am defintely not taking any sides, only I see what I read and what the thread has moved on to explain.

Then it makes more sense, if you are looking at disasters, accidents, war etc.[the post]

Yes, it comes to the surface during disaster lawsuits.
However, it is a reality that we all live with all the time, not even realizing it most of the time.
I still find that interesting, and still am very curious as to where Thai money boys fit on the spectrum.

Hi

Impossible to answer!

Is he family orientated?

Is he a good time boy out for what most youngsters view what life is here for??

Does he take family responsibilities seriously or does his thoughts lie with the nearest girl/boy in the Karaoke bar.

You cannot treat this as a profession such as a Doctor, Accountant, Engineer. The criteria does not fit.

How is it calculated, it isn't. The nearest calculation, in my view, would be to base it on an unskilled manual worker!

I am sure that is how a judge would view it, unless they had academic qualifications, in the event of a catastrophe.

Anyways, I'll say no more on it, as these subjects depress me [ Death, doom, misery ]


Kevin.

Hi,


There is no monetary value.

I value my life and the lives of all precious to me as.......PRICELESS!


Best wishes,

I agree with you 100 percent. The life of someone precious to you is indeed priceless.
What about the price of someone you don't know then?

Very low on the financial spectrum I would have to say. Similar to that of a Mexican prostitute or someone without an education, stable job, life plan, or a simple goal for that matter. Yes, the "unskilled manual labor" label fits but that's too generous I'm afraid because at least unskilled labor WORKS. And, please don't tell me that wearing a g-string, number, and making love to a greasy metal pole constitutes work. Wait a minute- I change my mind. Getting shagged by fat, hairy, old drama queens IS work! You couldn't pay me enough to do that but I digress. The Chicago drug dealer must at least possess the ability to plan, organize, barter/trade, etc.. so I rank them above a Thai bar boy.

I find it ironic that the tired "queens" here get all bent out of shape when you criticize their beloved bar boys ("absolutely NOT prostitutes") because deep down they want their "boys" to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed, and without a life plan. Because if these boys DID value their lives more they wouldn't be with these tired "queens" in the first place! Give these boys an education and a decent job and they wouldn't remain in Pattaya for more than a nano-second. Who would?!

Thai bar boys don't value their lives much because Thai society doesn't value them. They receive virtually no real parenting, the educational system is a joke, and there are few economic opportunities to be had. And, please, spare me the "present oriented" mantra of Buddhist philosophy. How is that gonna cure a rampant AIDS epidemic? How is that gonna solve the nation's shitty educational system? How is that gonna fix the lack of economic opportunity? At least in the West, which many of you abandoned for a so called "better life", people's lives ARE worth more. There is opportunity. There is a safety net. There is hope. People have a future if they're willing to WORK and PLAN.

I don't fault 18 year old boys for being "boys". I fault their culture, their parents, their religion, and their ENABLING rice queen "daddies" who do nothing but maintain the status quo and bitch when someone dares to point out that reality in Thailand sucks the big one!!

Very low on the financial spectrum I would have to say. Similar to that of a Mexican prostitute or someone without an education, stable job, life plan, or a simple goal for that matter. Yes, the "unskilled manual labor" label fits but that's too generous I'm afraid because at least unskilled labor WORKS. And, please don't tell me that wearing a thong, number, and making love to a greasy pole constitutes work. Wait a minute- I change my mind. Getting shagged by fat, hairy, old drama queens IS work! You couldn't pay me enough to do that but I digress. The Chicago drug dealer must at least possess the ability to plan, organize, barter/trade, etc.. so I rank them above a Thai bar boy.

I find it ironic that the tired "queens" here get all bent out of shape when you criticize their beloved bar boys ("absolutely NOT prostitutes") because deep down they want their "boys" to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed, and without a life plan. Because if these boys DID value their lives more they wouldn't be with these tired "queens" in the first place! Give these boys an education, a decent job, a future, and they wouldn't remain in Pattaya for more than a nano-second. Who would?!

Thai bar boys don't value their lives much because Thai society doesn't value them. They receive virtually no real parenting, the educational system is a joke, and there are few economic opportunities to be had. And, please, spare me the "present oriented" mantra of Buddhist philosophy. How is that gonna cure a rampant AIDS epidemic? How is that gonna solve the nation's shitty educational system? How is that gonna fix the lack of economic opportunity? At least in the West, which many of you abandoned for a so called "better life", people's lives ARE worth more. There is opportunity. There is a safety net. There is hope. People have a future if they're willing to WORK and PLAN.

I don't fault 18 year old boys for being "boys". I fault their culture, their parents, their religion, and their ENABLING rice queen "daddies" who do nothing but maintain the status quo and bitch when someone dares to point out that reality in Thailand sucks the big one!!

Now dont go talking common sense - some of them will choke on their G&T`s or have a stroke!

Thai bar boys don't value their lives much because Thai society doesn't value them. They receive virtually no real parenting, the educational system is a joke, and there are few economic opportunities to be had. And, please, spare me the "present oriented" mantra of Buddhist philosophy. How is that gonna cure a rampant AIDS epidemic? How is that gonna solve the nation's shitty educational system? How is that gonna fix the lack of economic opportunity? At least in the West, which many of you abandoned for a so called "better life", people's lives ARE worth more. There is opportunity. There is a safety net. There is hope. People have a future if they're willing to WORK and PLAN.

Why are you comparing Thai bar boys with the general population in the West? Hello!!!!!!!! Yes what they do is called Prostitution - are you saying prostitutes in the West value their lives more because Western society value them??? Rubbish!! Compare apples with apples please! There is a burgeoning middle class Thai society too - and I'm sure they value their live as much as you do. Also are you saying there are NO poor uneducated masses in America? Rubbish! Who do you think fills the lower ranks of the Arm Forces?


I don't fault 18 year old boys for being "boys". I fault their culture, their parents, their religion, and

You are fortunate to have probably grown up in White-bread America and you obviously never took a ride down thru the other side of town (poor urban America) where children scarcely get any education and if they are lucky enough to graduate high school, which by way, 1 in 3 children in the US do not - they are likely to be JUST barely literate.

Parental Guidance? Another big question in leading countries of the world like America might be "Who's Daddy?". A scary percentage of Children in America wouldn't know their father if they stumbled over them.

Religion: Oh yes I can see that's doing America a lot of good right now. No stem cell research, abortion likey to go underground again in the near future, gay unions discouraged and frowned upon - let's convert the whole world to Christianity that way we can all become a bunch of prudish, arrogant, holier-than-thou, and self-righteous, hypocrites.

Your comments don't completely lack merit, but you're missing the boat. The root of the problem is economic and in case you haven't notice you're in a developing country. Problems in Thailand like a shitty education system, Aids, lack of parental guidance are happening all over the world including America and Europe.

"...are you saying prostitutes in the West value their lives more because Western society value them?"

Nope, I'm saying whores in the West are worth more (in a financial sense) than whores in Thailand. I have no clue if a Western whore values their life any more than an Asian whore does- probably not, but that's not the issue. I'm saying there are more opportunities in terms of growth, enrichment, and change in the West than there are in Thailand. The "pay for play" lifestyle is a dead-end for most of these "boys" (literally) and we all know it. By the time they're 30 many will be HIV+, dead, or left out to pasture. At least in Western society there is a safety net which is all but non-existent in Thailand. I'm talking about outreach programs, social services, free meds for low income residents, etc...

"There is a burgeoning middle class Thai society too - and I'm sure they value their live as much as you do."

Maybe so, but that's not the issue here. We're talking about BAR BOYS and not middle class shop owners.

"Are you saying there are NO poor uneducated masses in America?"

Of course not. Sure, there are uneducated people in America- lots of 'em. But there are plenty of opportunities here if they are willing to WORK & PLAN- a helluva lot more opportunity than in Thailand. The U.S. unemployment rate is near an all-time low I might add. So what if it's flipping burgers at McDonalds or making coffee at Starbucks. A job is a job. Work is work. It's about opportunity, discipline, responsibility, accountability- things that are woefully lacking in Thailand.

"Who do you think fills the lower ranks of the Arm Forces?"

Wonderful, decent, honorable, hard working, confident, gutsy, courageous men & women that's who. I could give a shit if they come from a farm, the inner city, or have nothing more than a high school diploma. It's about opportunity. That's what matters. The reality is the men/women who make up the current armed forces in the USA are the brightest, most capable soldiers ever. The commanders will tell you this. The embedded journalists will tell you this. It's all-volunteer don't forget. These guys want to be here.

"You are fortunate to have probably grown up in White-bread America (yes I did and thank you, Jesus) and you obviously never took a ride down thru the other side of town (nope, you're wrong there)..."

I grew up in Detroit and it doesn't get much worse than that. I've see it all, mate. Yep, 1 in 3 may not graduate but there are plenty of opportunities for work if they are WILLING to work. No free passes allowed anymore- thank god.

"A scary percentage of Children in America wouldn't know their father if they stumbled over them".

Define "scary". Tell me the percentage please. I have little use for emotional rhetoric. At least American parents (single or otherwise) don't sell their children into the sex trade like they do in Thailand. Or, at the very least, are complicit in allowing their children to enter into this profession in the first place. And, please show me one single American parent (mother usually) who would allow her kids to sell their bodies to "old trolls" in a shit-hole town like Pattaya 150 miles away from home. Ain't gonna happen. Doesn't matter how poor, uneducated these "Americans" may be- it ain't like Thailand.

"Oh yes I can see that's doing America a lot of good right now...."

Blah, blah, blah. Not the issue. Objectively (financially) speaking, an American life is worth more than a Thai life. Sad but true. Take the emotion out of it- an impossible task I can see. But one has to look at the Society as a whole. Look at the educational system, the unemployment rate, the inflation rate, the growth rate, life expectancy, access to health care, a social safety net, etc... Forget about religion, abortion, gay unions, stem cell research- NOT THE ISSUE. It's about opportunity. It's about a work ethic. It's about responsibility. Accountability. The Thai system is failing these kids.

"Problems in Thailand...are happening all over the world including America and Europe."

Of course they are but you're avoiding the issue. But even so, the problems you speak of are much, much lower in the West and the opportunities here are limitless if you're willing to WORK. America bashing is easy. Any putz can do it. But let's not cloud the issue with rants about Bush, gay unions, and stem cell research. Yeah, I know you're little "Ton" or "Tam" is "priceless" to you. Sure, their worth is "immeasurable" at the moment. But most of you will probably dump your little "priceless boy" for a newer, fresher, younger model in a year or two anyway. And again, by the time they're 30 forget it. It's over for them. They're done. If they ain't dead they soon will be. That's the reality and we all know it.

Hi,


There is no monetary value.

I value my life and the lives of all precious to me as.......PRICELESS!


Best wishes,

I agree with you 100 percent. The life of someone precious to you is indeed priceless.
What about the price of someone you don't know then?

JINGTHING,

Do you burst into tears when you read in the obituaries someone you don't know has died???

Do you cry your eyes out when the news reports a death in Darfur or Iraq,??

No, I don't think so, because it does not affect you directly.

If it was your life partner, Mother, Father, brother , sister or very close friend, the answer would be differnt, I think!!

Be realistic please.

You are off topic. Of course people mourn their loved ones, and don't mourn people they don't know.
The issue of the post is about cold economics, not emotions and sentiments when people die.

Jinthing,

With respect, how can I be off topic.

They were talking about monetary values of people and how they were calculated in the event of death. Yes or not,?? Then the thread developed into how judges and courts assess this in real terms,[ monetary terms] this is how they started talking about values, and/or how much etc.

My point was, no matter what a court put on it, the value of someone close to me would be immeasureable, so no amount a Court or judge placed on it would make up for the loss.

[Aunty]

".... Objectively (financially) speaking, an American life is worth more than a Thai life.

Only if you place a very narrow highly artificial dollar value on life, whcih most do not. The broader metaphysical truth of 'life' is that all lives hold similar value, whether they be a Thai aristocrat, a black doctor in Nairobi, a white American crack whore pissing into the gutter in Harlem, or a Thai gogo boy.

"The broader metaphysical truth of 'life' is that all lives hold similar value..."

Let's all sing "Koom Bye-Ya My Lord" shall we. Again, NOT the issue. But even so, Aunty, metaphysics ain't gonna improve the Thai educational system. It ain't gonna improve parenting skills in Isaan. It ain't gonna reduce the unemployment rate, inflation rate, or provide low cost "meds" to 20 year whores in Pattaya. Not gonna happen. Metaphysics are better left to college campuses and monasteries where they might just get you a cup of coffee if you can channel spirits through your anus.

"Only if you place a very narrow highly artificial dollar value on life"....

No one is doing that here because the economics we're talking about here are SO basic, straight forward, and obvious. Just look at the odds, percentages, and statistics and they all say the same thing. Hell, just look out your frickin' window and the answers are right in front of you. A Thai bar boy's life ain't worth much at all. Zip. Nada. They're probably better off never coming to a place like Pattaya in the first place. The odds are stacked against them even before they get out of their mother's womb. Simply add poor parenting, a crappy education, few job opportunities, zero work ethic, and mix it with a 60 year old HIV+ "queen" from Sydney, London, Munich, Paris, or NYC and they've got a bright future indeed. I can see dollar signs already.

Dear CasperLA.

And who do you blame for all these problems in Thailand??? The low educated poor parenting Isaarn farmers???


The USA wan't doing an exactly fantastic job of being the self delegated Worlds Police Force, at least not the last time I looked anyway.

I agree with you on one point, Tony Blair is a moron. Anyone following the policies of George Bush has got to be, and I apologize to my many American friends for saying it, but that is what I think.

Also, do you not think you should be looking a bit closer to home at your own internal problems before attacking the rest of the world. Democracy comes in many forms, not only George Bush's version of it.

Further to your point, I had a grammar education, I did serve in the Royal Navy in the UK, as a Weapons engineering Mechanic. I also did this by choice straight from school in actual fact. I class myself no better nor worse, having been lucky in having come from a Country where we have opportunity, than a Thai national.

I certainly do not look at them gooey-eyed and allow myself to be walked over nor do I speak to them like they are something I picked up on my shoe!

I also, live with one of those low educated farmers, He IS 30 Years old this year, when I will have been with him 12 years, I am not and would never have thought about trading him in for a new model or younger version.

He speaks English, Thai and Lao. He has now got qualifications in Hair,beauty and has attended and passed courses with certificates to prove it.

He has also been studying Chinese and is the first to admit, he is studying now as when he was younger, he was too busy working in a restaurant at Central Deparetment Store in Bangkok, to ensure his mother had enough money!

Obviously then, you will not be holidaying in Thailand then this year???

I think your post is at the very least, exceptionally biased,rude and stereo -typed!

[bao-bao]

I agree with you on one point, Tony Blair is a moron. Anyone following the policies of George Bush has got to be, and I apologize to my many American friends for saying it, but that is what I think.

You and me both, brother. I won't bash Blair - that's for the Brits to decide - but Bush Jr (AKA "The Shrub") is a gross embarrassment to any US citizen with a clear head.

I can only hope the sheep-like US voting public (albeit a disgracefully small percentage of the flock that do vote) will get it right in 2008.

[Aunty]

"The broader metaphysical truth of 'life' is that all lives hold similar value..."

Let's all sing "Koom Bye-Ya My Lord" shall we. Again, NOT the issue. But even so, Aunty, metaphysics ain't gonna improve the Thai educational system. It ain't gonna improve parenting skills in Isaan. It ain't gonna reduce the unemployment rate, inflation rate, or provide low cost "meds" to 20 year whores in Pattaya. Not gonna happen. Metaphysics are better left to college campuses and monasteries where they might just get you a cup of coffee if you can channel spirits through your anus.

"Only if you place a very narrow highly artificial dollar value on life"....

No one is doing that here because the economics we're talking about here are SO basic, straight forward, and obvious. Just look at the odds, percentages, and statistics and they all say the same thing. Hell, just look out your frickin' window and the answers are right in front of you. A Thai bar boy's life ain't worth much at all. Zip. Nada. They're probably better off never coming to a place like Pattaya in the first place. The odds are stacked against them even before they get out of their mother's womb. Simply add poor parenting, a crappy education, few job opportunities, zero work ethic, and mix it with a 60 year old HIV+ "queen" from Sydney, London, Munich, Paris, or NYC and they've got a bright future indeed. I can see dollar signs already.


1. People (nations) who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Get your own country in order before you start running down any others.

2. Your definitions, even your economic ones, are way too narrow. You aren't seriously suggesting that the 'value' of a Thai mother's labour in looking after her family, cooking, cleaning, working in the fields, mothering, has less value than an American mother doing the same for her family now, are you??? Surely not. You do understand, don't you, that non-paid work still has value, or are you to vanilla white middle-class male honky, and just assume that your way of looking at the world is the right way?

"And who do you blame for all these problems in Thailand?"

Thai government. Thai culture. Thai people. Thailand's problems are of their own making.

"The USA wasn't doing an exactly fantastic job of being the self delegated Worlds Police Force, at least not the last time I looked anyway."

Not the issue.

"I agree with you on one point, Tony Blair is a moron."

I never said he was a moron. I like Tony Blair.

"Anyone following the policies of George Bush has got to be (a moron)"

Well, tell me something I haven't heard a billion times already. Yawn.

"Do you not think you should be looking a bit closer to home at your own internal problems before attacking the rest of the world"

Not the issue but I'm more than willing to discuss America's problems. Bring it, baby! It's your steadfast refusal to acknowledge, accept, or discuss Thailand's problems that I find so pathetic. The more you bitch about America the more I know you're unwilling to take responsibility for problems in your own backyard. The issue before us is the "objective value of Thai bar boy". STICK to that issue. All you tired "queens" want to talk about is Bush, Blair, stem cell research, abortion, Christianity, single parent households, Harlem crack whores, and on and on and fucking on....What about the life expectancy of a Thai bar boy? What about his chances for a decent education? What about his immediate family? What about him finding economic opportunity? What about his health care? What becomes of him after you discard him for a younger model? DEAL with those questions honestly, objectively, and fairly and I'm more than willing to jump on the 'bitch about America' bandwagon.

"I....would never have thought about trading him in for a new model or younger version."

Congratulations. But we both know it happens ALL the time. Think of the countless sex tourists who don't live in Thailand, or those who maintain long distance relationships, or those who just come to play. The larger question remains of what becomes of these boys after several years in the bar business? What are their odds for success? What are their odds of acquiring HIV? What opportunities exist for them?

"I think your post is at the very least, exceptionally biased,rude and stereo -typed!"

Thank you and of course you do. Truth hurts doesn't it, Pal?! I expect nothing less from those who dwell on reality's fringe- drinking, smoking, drugging, and whoring their way into oblivion. And, all the while trashing the very system (ie. West) that educated, financed, protected, and ultimately provided them with the means to shag uneducated, unskilled boys who live 10,000 miles away and have no future. Wow, that's just wonderful. But hey, if you want to talk about global warming and how George Bush caused it that's fine too.

"People (nations) who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Get your own country in order before you start running down any others"

I don't live in a glass house, Aunty, as I'm more than willing to trash America. But again, like so many others, you're avoiding the core issue here which is centered around Thai bar boys. Why are you so unwilling to discuss their plight? Their value? Their future? Their opportunities? It's all so simple really.

"You aren't seriously suggesting that the 'value' of a Thai mother's labour in looking after her family, cooking, cleaning, working in the fields, mothering, has less value than an American mother doing the same for her family now, are you?"

Not in an immediate nurturing sense- while the child is still young. But, if she does not instill basic life lessons later on such as education, work, personal responsibility, then, yes, the American mother is of a higher value. Oh, and God forbid she sells her child into the sex trade or allows it happen. Forget it then, her worth goes down the toilet. But even if the American mother does not instill these same basic life skills her child will still be better off because of the opportunities which exist around them. It ultimately boils down to what opportunities the country/society can provide to their citizens.

"Are you vanilla white middle-class male honky, and just assume that your way of looking at the world is the right way?"

Let's see. I am white, middle class, and most certainly a "honky". My way of looking at the world is based on reality- not what's right or wrong. I'm interested in facts, behavior, and what works- not conjecture, hyperbole, emotion, or wishful thinking. Truth is paramount. Progressive, lasting, beneficial change only comes about when truth/reality is faced head on.

You see, I am happy to discuss 10 things that America needs to work on- any time, any place. But, you also gotta be willing to discuss/analyze 10 things that Thailand needs to work on in terms of its sex workers. Fair is fair. But you guys refuse to address this issue. You bury your heads in the sand. You slam anyone who brings this subject up. That's what I object to- your cowardly denial of problems in your own backyard, pretending they don't exist or that someone else is at fault (ie. the West).

Dear CasperLA,

Are you a member of the Aryan race??

I heard there were a few who escaped justice and fled to the Stated after WWII . Are you one of their offspring by any chance??

This is all rather philosophical really. "Really" is an odd word as we can't know or measure the value of anything unless we recognise the nature of its reality or what ontology it belongs to. Most of us would agree that there is a physical reality - a table's weight can be measured in terms of the displacement of a spring. However, it's value belongs to socially constructed reality - a second order of reality, if you will, and we can set up adjudication panels that rule on the current value of a table or a person's remaining life.

However, when we start saying that the value of a departed friend's presence is beyond measure, we are really entering spiritual reality (the third order?) We can't dismiss spiritual reality, even if we dismiss the social constructs (religion) that claim custody of spritual mattters - many wars are fought in its name and great music transcends cultural differnces and social agreements.

I always think "How deep is your love?" beautifully illustrates that the measures of one ontology are inappropriate in the next.

"Are you a member of the Aryan race??"

Oh I see, it's attack the messenger time. So typical. So expected. So lame. I'm not Aryan, I'm a tadpole. No, I'm a giraffe. No, I'm a turtle. I've already been called "vanilla", "honky", "white-bread" so why not add racist, sexist, elitist, war monger, Blair lover, etc... to the list. Pile the labels on because then you don't have to address the issue right?! God, I love it. Your intellectual laziness, dishonesty, and cowardly nature will only end up hurting the very boys you profess to love so much. Calling me a Nazi doesn't improve their plight one bit. But hey, if you wanna go there I'm right there with ya. I say bring it!

Dear CasperLA,

If the cap/stetson ............FITS!!!. ......Sounds to me like a 10 gallon hat on a two pint head eh!


Take a valium and got and get some therapy.

"Reality" is an odd word as we can't know or measure the value of anything unless we recognise the nature of its reality or what ontology it belongs to. Most of us would agree that there is a physical reality - a table's weight can be measured in terms of the displacement of a spring. However, it's value belongs to socially constructed reality - a second order of reality, if you will, and we can set up adjudication panels that rule on the current value of a table or a person's remaining life."

Huh?!

God love ya, NorthStar, but me thinks you've had one too many Philosophy classes. Let's see, how do we define reality? Should we look at it's "nature" or what "ontology" it belongs to? Or, should we wait and see if it's "socially constructed" or just a "second order of reality". No, no, no. If we just set up "adjudication panels" then it all makes sense. Of course, how could I forget about those pesky "adjudication panels"?! And, lord, let us not forget about "spiritual" reality- the most important one of them all!

Here are several "reality" based questions I have for you, NorthStar:
- What percentage of Thai bar boys will acquire HIV before the age of 30?
- What percentage of Thai bar boys will be dead before the age of 30?
- What level of education do most bar boys receive before running off to Pattaya?
- What is Thailand actively doing to improve their educational system?
- What job opportunities are available to bar boys once they leave the sex trade industry?
- What is Thailand actively doing to reduce the significance of it's sex trade industry?
- What social, economic, and medical programs exist for sex trade workers and are they effective?

Now, are my questions "ontologically" based or just "socially constructed"? Do I need to add "adjudication panels" to them or can I leave them out? Not sure, really. I mean, there are so many different "realities" here I want to make sure we're all on the same page.

"...Sounds to me like a 10 gallon hat on a two pint head eh!"

Still on the labels kick, Kquill? I mean come on, the list is endless. Why stop there. Just think of the possibilities. My little "two pint head" has at least stayed on topic, not resorted to personal attacks, and offered up more reasoned analysis then you've provided in your last 100 posts combined. Now, that's a "reality" even NorthStar might accept.

I'm saying there are more opportunities in terms of growth, enrichment, and change in the West than there are in Thailand. The "pay for play" lifestyle is a dead-end for most of these "boys" (literally) and we all know it. By the time they're 30 many will be HIV+, dead, or left out to pasture. At least in Western society there is a safety net which is all but non-existent in Thailand. I'm talking about outreach programs, social services, free meds for low income residents, etc...

Of course not. Sure, there are uneducated people in America- lots of 'em. But there are plenty of opportunities here if they are willing to WORK & PLAN- a helluva lot more opportunity than in Thailand. The U.S. unemployment rate is near an all-time low I might add. So what if it's flipping burgers at McDonalds or making coffee at Starbucks. A job is a job. Work is work. It's about opportunity, discipline, responsibility, accountability- things that are woefully lacking in Thailand.

Please remember Thailand is still considered a 3rd world country!


The reality is the men/women who make up the current armed forces in the USA are the brightest, most capable soldiers ever. I don't think they're that bright if they're willing to be sent to Iraq. It's NOT America's war!! Take care of your own first! You have your own sets of problems in America: Education, Welfare and Health care.


yes I did and thank you, Jesus.. Hmm showing your true color here :clown:


At least American parents (single or otherwise) don't sell their children into the sex trade like they do in Thailand. Or, at the very least, are complicit in allowing their children to enter into this profession in the first place. And, please show me one single American parent (mother usually) who would allow her kids to sell their bodies to "old trolls" in a shit-hole town like Pattaya 150 miles away from home. Ain't gonna happen. Doesn't matter how poor, uneducated these "Americans" may be- it ain't like Thailand.

Anna Nicole's mom? Anna was a whore and sold her body to "old trolls"... Wake up and smell the enchilada buddy - this kind of things are happening in America too! The root of the problem is economic, not Thai Parents, Thai Culture and Religion!

Beary,

Hence the term, " He/She only married him/her for the money!"

Dear CasperLA,

You send it posts "ranting and raving" statistics about Thailand. It sounds like you have been hurt by a Thai or taken for a Royal Ride, and now feel obliged to vent your anger here.

Honestly.what do you expect anyone here to do about; He she will be lucky to reach 30, He/She will have HIV, He/She, if they're lucky will be put out to pasture, Their families sell them into prostitution etc.

"If you can't help 100 people, just help one" That CasperLA, was the famous words of who???

Do you know, or are you going to run around your computer until you get the answer!

Beary mentions Ann Nicole, there are also other instances like the fact Jordy Chandler's mother was accused of knowing what was going on with Michael Jackson, but money made her look the other way.[ An accusation levelled by the boys father]

I too, have watched the behaviour of plenty of American behaviour on Jerry Springer!

I do not put myself under an illusion or stereotype the American people like this, it is a minority.[Ann nicole was a trailer park girl]

There are many hard working Thai people who would not wish or want to undertake the type of work[ prostitution] that others partake in in Pattaya and Bangkok.

They happily work the Land and do what you would consider a decent days work for very low wages.

There are 65 million people in this country, Many gay outsiders, Westerners and people from all backgrounds and countries take it upon themselves to assist some of these people from their own funds and resources, because the Thai people do not have the access to the benefit of free health care and other opportunities some of us enjoy in the West.

If it brings pleasure to a gay/straight, man/woman to do this, What is the problem???

Every US teenager is not going to run around shooting his colleagues, every Muslim is not going to blow up the next thing he sees and every Thai is not waiting to jump on the next bus to Pattaya and sleep with the first foreigner they come across.

I'll leave it at that as the thread is down the toilet anyway.

Have a good one.