Early Retirement

Any thoughts, from those of you who have done it?

I arrived in Thailand in my early twenties, with nothing much more than my suitcase and a lot of energy. Now, in my early forties, I have enough to retire in style (so much for those who say it's impossible for a foreigner to make money here).

The nay-sayers say I'd be directionless, bored, unchallenged. I say there's hardly enough time to do all the things I want to do before I die: travel, learn another language, spend more time with family and loved ones, read, enjoy sunrises and sunsets.

Anyone?

[TOQ]

Any thoughts, from those of you who have done it?

I arrived in Thailand in my early twenties, with nothing much more than my suitcase and a lot of energy. Now, in my early forties, I have enough to retire in style (so much for those who say it's impossible for a foreigner to make money here).

The nay-sayers say I'd be directionless, bored, unchallenged. I say there's hardly enough time to do all the things I want to do before I die: travel, learn another language, spend more time with family and loved ones, read, enjoy sunrises and sunsets.

Anyone?

I retired early but only by about 5 years.. Your situation seems a bit different.. There is always the option to return to work if you desire after you have been retired for awhile.. That way you can try retirement and see if you like it..

john

[adman5000]

I stopped working several years ago in my mid-forties and it has worked out great for me. I think it depends on the individual. I have many different interests and I think that is VERY important. For the people where work = their life and don't have a lot of other interests or hobbies I think it is much more difficult for them. I tell people I was adjusted after my first day! I eased myself into it. The year and a half before I stopped working, I went on a part time schedule by taking EVERY Friday off. I quickly saw that it was the right direction for me. A financial plan is also key so you don't spend your new free time worrying. I replaced work with key activities that I totally enjoy such as occasional volunteer work, visiting family, going on vacation to places I always wanted to visit, and spending more time on my hobbies.

If it doesn't work out, you can always go back to work. I quickly dump that thought every time it comes to mind! One of the lessons of observing people in Thailand is how you can survive without many things you "think" you "need."

I retired 4 years ago at age 34 - and will never work again

Of course I had 9 million reasons to retire so young - thanks to the number 17

Haven't had a dull moment since

Try to make sure you have enough money! The longer you stay away from the working world, the harder it usually is to go back to it. It would be psychologically very hard for me to go back to work, and because of not working for years, even if I could find work, it would be at much reduced wages. The younger you quit, the more money you need ...

[yaraboy]

I quit the rat race at 43 and have been happy ever since. I keep my mind active by being an aggressive investor with a side benefit of getting much richer . Technology allows me to keep in touch most of the time regardless of location

You guys are so lucky and brave.
I am 42 now, have been thinking about early retirement since I first visited LOS 3 years ago. I actually posted a message here last year inquiring about early retirement.
Being financially conservative, I am just too afraid that I don't have enough money to live on if I retire now. My total asset is about USD 1.5 million, which includes bank deposit, a house, and 250K in my 401K retirement fund (invested in stock mutual funds), but no pension.
Sure it's cheap and easy to retire early in LOS if you can live there like a Thai. But, no offense, I would not enjoy that. I only stay at 4 or 5 star hotels when visit LOS. If I move to LOS, I would only stay at an upscale apartment there, which I believe should cost at least $1200/ month for rent, plus utilities and maid service. Add entertainment, meals, travel. I concluded I can't afford to retire now.
On the other hand, I don't have much of a life in my farang land now (boring job and boring life with very little sex), so this is becoming a struggle for me.
:bounce:

Scott, you have more than enough.
We aren't all that brave. But you sound like a big chicken. Who are you leaving all your money to because it sounds like it won't be you who is going to enjoy it.

If you had said you were thrilled with your life in farangland, I wouldn't have said what I said, but it sounds like you next a swift kick in the ass.

[Dick]

I remember one lovely chap who planned well for an early retirement. He put as much as he could into his pension plan in his latter working years to maximise his pension, so that when he took his early retirement he had a substantial monthly income for life. Unfortunately he didn't live anywhere as long as he had planned.
As they say, you can't take it with you. If only we could glimpse into that crystal ball to know how long we have on this world. Over cautious and perhaps you sacrifice experiences during your working life for the promise of better in longevity; underplan and your pensionable life is but a waiting for God without the enjoyment it might otherwise bring.
For many the weekly lotto or pools brings hope and the answer to many a dream.
No. #17 was it?

[adman5000]

Scott123- Why not give retirement a try. If it doesn't work out or you feel your spending it quicker than makes you comfortable, you can always go back to work, or work part-time. There are also ways to make the 401k accessible sooner if you need it. It sounds like not having a pension and how to cover your medical will be the biggest items to plan out. There are a lot of free retirement calculators out there which you can use after choosing your assumptions. Just do a search on retirement calculator.

....The nay-sayers say I'd be directionless, bored, unchallenged....

Yes, but you might be a lot less nasty once you relax a bit! I say go for it! :cheers:

For many the weekly lotto or pools brings hope and the answer to many a dream.
No. #17 was it?

They say that one ball can change it all. For me it did. Number 17 was my life changing number

All for under $6.00

[dab69]

A little mental diversion for me is imagining what it
really would be like. I kinda enjoy the running
a mental simulation of this
from the social aspect to the financial aspects.

The sound of "declining assets" always scares me away.
I prefer the reverse of this.

Important how much your capital is
working for you as you are relaxing.
In my case I would probably be working as well,
on a working retirement (financially).

scary words- dwindling assets"-
in any sector here :)

Scott, you have more than enough.

Do you really think that $1.5 million is enough to see someone through the next 40-45 years -- I mean, with a reasonable lifestyle, reserves for medical and other emergencies, etc.?

[Irish1972]

Do you really think that $1.5 million is enough to see someone through the next 40-45 years -- I mean, with a reasonable lifestyle, reserves for medical and other emergencies, etc.?



Not a chance, If you had two million left after Capital expenditure ie house paid for and so on you might have a fighting chance at it.

[Brad the Impala]

You should be able to raise 5% on your $1.5million per year, increasing in line with inflation. Of course you can retire on that. Whether you want to depends on what you want from your life.

[ikarus]

Scott, you have more than enough.

Do you really think that $1.5 million is enough to see someone through the next 40-45 years -- I mean, with a reasonable lifestyle, reserves for medical and other emergencies, etc.?
I remember, BG, and it probably was your response to Steve inquiry, that you suggested that 3 million US is minimum you would ever retire on. Now you are retiring and I presume that you either got a hefty inheritance or you really discovered something special in Thailand. And the rest of us only knows that the Land of Smiles always takes and never gives...

I would hope $2million would be enough. Just 4% return on that would be an annual income of $80,000, without touching the principal. ($80,000/yr works out to B220,000/month at a B33 exchange rate.) You folks are in a totally different league than I am. I bought a condo to live in, and rarely spend more than $1,000 per month for the rest. But, I don't off boys multiple times a day nor go out boozing every night, so that may make the difference.

Scott, you have more than enough.

Do you really think that $1.5 million is enough to see someone through the next 40-45 years -- I mean, with a reasonable lifestyle, reserves for medical and other emergencies, etc.?
I remember, BG, and it probably was your response to Steve inquiry, that you suggested that 3 million US is minimum you would ever retire on. Now you are retiring and I presume that you either got a hefty inheritance or you really discovered something special in Thailand. And the rest of us only knows that the Land of Smiles always takes and never gives...

No inheritance; just hard work.

I don't off boys multiple times a day nor go out boozing every night, so that may make the difference

Honey, you clearly have a problem.... What is wrong with you???? You should spend some of your money on a therapist as you are clearly not thinking straight, Luv.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Just do the math or go to this site and plug in some numbers. Nice graphs and play around with the variables and see what works for you.
www.lpl.com/calculators/DistribSavings.html (http://www.lpl.com/calculators/DistribSavings.html)

I don't off boys multiple times a day nor go out boozing every night, so that may make the difference

Honey, you clearly have a problem.... What is wrong with you???? You should spend some of your money on a therapist as you are clearly not thinking straight, Luv.
Why? I can get plenty of FREE advice right here on Sawatdee Gay Thailand forums.

Thanks for your concern, but after so many years of being gay, I'm not sure I want to think "straight." :-)

(PS to Elephantspike: Any chance of getting just a mundane, regular old smiley for a smile? I was going to use this one: :p until I realized it was a *raspberry*!)

Interesting how different people see how far money can/will go in retirement. Someone suggested that on 2,000,000 at 4% one could generate $80,000 but I think it is important to remember that at least for those of us in the USA and I would assume most of Europe that depending on where the interest is earned there would be a tax bite on that $80,000. I think here in the USA with state and federal taxes and depending one whether interest, capital gains, dividends, you would see a good $30,000 if not more of that go right down the tubes to the tax man. Further as some have mentioned it depends on the life style one wants to live and always keep in mind health issues that can come later in life which might force one to return to their native country in order to get government sponsored health care. Things also would depend on the inflation rate if you don't want the capital eroding away.

Consider this: Given $3,000,000 earning a 5% return is $150,000. Here in California if straight interest income you would be turning over approximately $65-$70,000 for federal and state taxes. So basically you keep about 2.66 %. If you figure annual inflation at roughly 3% you are in trouble already. You cannot help but dig into the principle to live as your interest money is just keeping up with the inflation rate. So 3,000,000 divided by 40 years gives you $75,000 per year to live on and who knows what $75,000 will be worth in real terms 20 years from now. I guess it just depends on how long you think you will live, your thoughts in terms of the lifestyle you want to live, what you think you might want to plan for health care needs. So early retirement is great as there are lots of things you can do during early retirement that will be more difficult at the body grows tired so lots of reasons to take the early retirement. If in that situation however I would not even want to consider the possibility of having to go back to work as there is no doubt my earning power would be greatly diminished having been out of the work force for a number of years and because of my older age. So to anyone thinking about early retirement if your earning power now is substantial enough it might be worth the sacrifice to work 2-4 more years and accumulate more so as to be free from worry later on.

Early retirement sounds great and damn well I wish I have could have done it earlier but it just didn't work out that way. So to BG I would say this, go for it if you think you (1) have plenty of interests to keep you occupied (remember the more time on your hands the more time you have to spend money) and (2) have sufficient investiment, savings, other assests to see you thru a good 40 more years to live in the lifestyle you wish keeping in mind health issues which inevitably arise as you get older. Even prescription drugs for the little things that come along can drain ones monthly income.

I am happy to say that if all goes right, 2007 should be the year I retire. I have to agree with Scott in that I don't have the desire to live on the edge and want to enjoy my retirement and have worked to accumulate the funds to live well. I have no dream to permanently settle in Thailand although I do intend to spend a great deal of time there and have considered buying a condo in Bangkok (won't do this until the exchange rate improves and I see a little more stability in the government so it may be a while). My intent is to enjoy the life I have built for myself here, stay part of the year in Hawaii and part of the year in Thailand (multiple trips). I enjoying being on the move and want to travel a bit.

Just my thoughts as believe me I was ready to retire 20 years ago. But I know when I retire this year I have no worries and I can enjoy my retirement to the fullest without restrictions. We each have different needs so what is enough for one may not be enough or may be too much for another. Some time ago there was a thread about costs to retire and live in Thailand. I thought those figures that different individuals threw out there were very unrealistic in view of the fact that none made provision for any kind of emergency or other things that come up in life. In most cases a couple of flights home would have crippled those budgets. So it is most important to be realistic in my view. Good luck to you early retirees as I envy you that.

I only read of The Lad's request for advice (why he's asking a lot of people he regards as sad old sex tourists beats me - boasting perhaps) because someone else wasted bandwidth and quoted him in full, but what seemed to be missing was the role of the long-term boyfriend in all of this. I assume that in one sense or another he's "kept" - did they pay for the housing equally, for example - so it doesn't take a genius to work out that at least some of the future expenses will be for two, not one. Ah, now I realise - the sad old sex tourists are also paying for sex, one way or another - just like boygeenyus

[Impulse]

I remember a previous thread where it was generally agreed upon that a half million was required to retire in LOS.Now the numbers have jumped dramatically.Of course when your talking about early forties compared to the usual 55 or 60,then much more would be needed. Im hoping to retire on my measly 28 thousand a year pension.Haa.I thought I was lucky as pensions are becoming very rare here in the U.S. Of course Ill have about $400,000.00 besides the 28 k a year.Being the eternal optimist that I am,also planing to make some in the stock market,tho no guarantee on that. Ill have to just spend less as I live in my humble vt5 studio.Maybe at that age an off twice a week will satisfy.Or maybe a move up to Chang Mai will be a necessary. I would think a million would be enough,if you have saved that much,living off the interest on maybe half that and aggressively investing the rest.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"I arrived in Thailand in my early twenties, with nothing much more than my suitcase and a lot of energy"

come as a sex tourist or have you been celebate ?

Bob T makes a good point about taxes but you must also remember there are such things as tax-free bonds and money-market funds. And with $1 million + you now have access to all sorts of tax-advantged investments the rest of us plebs can only dream of - including shady offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands.

[Bob]

If one intends to retire to Thailand permanently, that number would be radically lower than somebody who intends to also maintain a house in his home country.
If retiring permanently to Thailand and you're approaching 60, I would think 1 million (US) would be adequate to live a decent life in LOS. Even sitting in savings bonds at 5% and paying home country taxes of $10,000.00 per year, $40,000.00 of income is pretty decent in LOS. You can rent a pretty decent condo for $1,000.00 per month or less and that leaves you with about $2,500.00 (or 87,500 baht) for everything else that month.

Bob T's point about taxes is relevant but in practicality his numbers are high. If you had taxable income (that means after all deductions like part of your medical insurance, property taxes, etc.) of $60,000.00, the total gross tax bill to the federals would be $11,557.50. Once you receive your social security (for most that's another $15,000 - $18,000 per year), that is non-taxable unless you have earned income (wages) over $25,000 (or some such number) per year.

Some of the figures given imply you want to have the same amount of net assets left over once you're 80 or so. I don't agree with that at all (in my view, if you spend your last dime about 10 minutes before you croak, you did it right...hehe).

Edit: If you isolated your social security of $15,000 per year for offs only and paid 2,000 baht per off, you could let the federals foot your 262.5 offs per year....lol.

"I arrived in Thailand in my early twenties, with nothing much more than my suitcase and a lot of energy" - come as a sex tourist or have you been celebate ?Neither - he came with the Peace Corps and converted to Siamism

"I arrived in Thailand in my early twenties, with nothing much more than my suitcase and a lot of energy" - come as a sex tourist or have you been celebate ?Neither - he came with the Peace Corps and converted to Siamism

Peace Corps? More proof that poor ol' Homi has absolutely NO idea who I am...despite claims to have met me.

[ikarus]

One factor which is not taken into consideration in this discussion is the long-term trend of US dollar depreciation versus many currencies. The very same income 60000 US per year (after tax I presume) jafarbutarab mentions is currently fine but it may change in the future. Those who retired on 2000 US per month now definitely feel the pain... By the way, investment in commercial real estate in US worked also fine for me during last several years {with average return of 14 percent) but it may change in the future. I say diversification in both currencies and asset classess may be even more important than ever. Another relevant point is a possibility of restrictions on capital export in US. Even those who, say, have 3 mil US (as BG implicitely claims but with due respect I do not believe him if the rest he told us about himself is true. Just think what should be his income if he was able to save 3 mil for twenty years. I assume that he did not give up his US citizenship and still pays US taxes on income exceeding 70-80 thous. US. His income should be of order 500000 US per year to save 3 mil. under these cirmustances) should worry. If they keep their money in US (in the bank or brokerage) one day they may not be allowed to transfer their funds outside the country..

Even those who, say, have 3 mil US (as BG implicitely claims but with due respect I do not believe him if the rest he told us about himself is true. Just think what should be his income if he was able to save 3 mil for twenty years. I assume that he did not give up his US citizenship and still pays US taxes on income exceeding 70-80 thous. US. His income should be of order 500000 US per year to save 3 mil. under these cirmustances) should worry.

$500,000 per year would be a high salary, even for the highest-paid Bangkok expatriate working for a blue-chip multinational. But what about someone who built his own business from scratch, then sold it to a third party? Businesses in my industry typically fetch 1-3 times annual revenues when they change hands.

The good thing about internet forum is that anyone can claim to be however rich (or beautiful or young) he is. And the readers are free to believe or disbelieve it, based on their own judgement.
:bounce:

The good thing about internet forum is that anyone can claim to be however rich (or beautiful or young) he isCorrect - or even build up an entirely fictitious character or cast of characters. The "individual" may be a collective effort. There's an assumption by many posters in this Forum than something said by a member about themselves may actually be true. Aunty, for example, claims to be a scientist (but is in reality a lab technician). People have never believed me (foolishly, in my opinion) that I am a composite character concocted by a world wide web of out-of-work soap opera scriptwriters. I literally don't care what people say about me, not only because I know I'm a bald fat old cunt, but also because ... I think, therefore I am ... not

[Bob]

I think

I'll be nice and not do a poll on that notion :cyclopsani:

I think I'll be nice and not do a poll on that notion :cyclopsani:Au contraire; "I don't think and therefore I am not" would fit the bill perfectly

Some of the figures given imply you want to have the same amount of net assets left over once you're 80 or so. I don't agree with that at all (in my view, if you spend your last dime about 10 minutes before you croak, you did it right...hehe).


Bob, I could not agree with you more on the last part of that statement.

I stand corrected on my tax rate figures also as I was high on the 65,000 - 70,000 on income of 150,000. Would be close to 50,000 if one lived in California and was paying state and federal taxes. (That's a 9.3% taxrate for California & 28% for federal taxes). Guess I was assuming a higher tax rate for 150,000 but even at the top federal rate of 35% I was high. Still on 150,000 the taxman is going to get 1/3 of it. Certainly not something to overlook. Certainly there are investiments that some spoke of which lessen the tax burden but as a general rule I think one should think straight tax rates. Anything better is a bonus.

I totally agree with any of you who plan to retire and live full time in Thailand. There is no doubt that you can live very well on significantly less than I present. I guess my point was that early retirement is great if you know exactly what lifestyle you want and what activities you plan for your retirement, and can fund those activities. That I think is the key to retirement planning. I think what figures into a lot of my thinking is the fact that I don't want to stay put all year in one place. Living in three different places and plane travel takes up considerably more income that staying put in one place. So it really depends on ones individual lifestyle. Rich or poor it makes sense to think things out clearly and provide for future contingencies before one takes early retirement (and I emphasize early retirement). I guess I have tended to think even at 61, I have another 30 or more years as the life expectancy in my family is well into the 90's (well unless I get hit by a truck). I also am somewhat fiscally conservative (I did NOT say cheap) about my future needs, so I tend to want to insure that I do not have financial problems as I get older.

It is like everything else in life, some people live only for today with little thought about the future, others (myself included) think more about the future. I guess we are all seeking the right mix.

i thought that if you were below 50, & without working visa, then it is pritty difficult to stay in los over 90days?! where the 90days stay itself would lead to 2 x visa runs. Thus extending your trip 30 days at a time, plus the 30 you get on initial entry at the airport = 90.

Then you have to leave the country for a certain period of time yes, how long i'm not sure?
Or are there means & ways around all this???

Or are there means & ways around all this???Not really, unless you can find someone inside Thailand to sponsor you for a business visa. I believe Sunbelt would do that (for a fee) once upon a time - http://www.sunbeltasia.com/ - but if you're that flush with money (since you can spend months at a time away from home) you could presumably have/form a corporation back home sponsor you for a visa to "examine business opportunities". Or you could stick 10 million baht in a Thai bank account and get an investment visa :bounce:

There is no longer an investment visa!

Yeah, retiring in Thailand is very popular. im considering the option too. but which area is best to buy, maybe an apartment or a studio apartment? what is the price. anyone can advise?

[Dboy]

i thought that if you were below 50, & without working visa, then it is pritty difficult to stay in los over 90days?! where the 90days stay itself would lead to 2 x visa runs. Thus extending your trip 30 days at a time, plus the 30 you get on initial entry at the airport = 90.

Then you have to leave the country for a certain period of time yes, how long i'm not sure?
Or are there means & ways around all this???


This was a mystery to me as well...until I explored options with the Thai Consulate here in US. They set me up with a non-imm "O" multiple entry visa. Good for in-an-out, one year, 90-days stay per entry. If this thing really works, I might consider buying a condo (but not in Pattaya of course). Since I split time between the US and Thailand, this visa will probably work great.


Dboy

Yeah, retiring in Thailand is very popular. im considering the option too. but which area is best to buy, maybe an apartment or a studio apartment? what is the price. anyone can advise?

It depends on your financial sitiuation. Bangkok is more expensive than Pattaya, Pattaya is more expensive than Chiangmai, Changmai is more expensive than the countryside.
Within Bangkok, there are high class area like Langsuan, and cheaper area like Rachathepsi or even cheaper like Bangkapi area.
The more you can afford, the more convenient and 'show-off' you can be (just imagine having your own pool in a 200 sqm condo in Langsuan area. And let me tell you, because of the 'class' structure of Thai society, people living in luxery places do enjoy very nice life styles, compare to what's available in farangland.

There are pros and cons in buying properties. For me, the cons are:
1. property values have gone up so much in recent years, it is quite risky to buy now. I believe the property will certainly go downhill dramatically if the U.S. properties go down, and this seems very likely to happen now.
2. the property value in LOS is more volatile than those in farangland. Your property in LOS may loose half of its value in a year depending on the political and economic climate of this country, which is also quite volatile (compare to faranglands).
3. It is not easy to re-sell a 'used' property. Thai buyers usually don't like 'used' property. Farang buyers are restricted to the 50% ownership rule.
4. For condo buyers, the building may or may not be maintained in good condition, so after a few years, there is a great chance that your condo building may become a dump, especially in those buildings with high percentage (80 or 90%) of Thai residents. There is nothing you can do if the building maintanence goes downhill.

:bounce:

3. It is not easy to re-sell a 'used' property. Thai buyers usually don't like 'used' property. Farang buyers are restricted to the 50% ownership rule.

The way that I would understand it is that if the project is up to 50% farang owned, then a farang owner could STILL sell to a farang as after the sale the project would still be 50% farang owned.

I guess I missed something?

3. It is not easy to re-sell a 'used' property. Thai buyers usually don't like 'used' property. Farang buyers are restricted to the 50% ownership rule.


This point is irrelevant if you own a condo as a foreigner. You can then sell to another foreigner, anytime. There is even a PREMIUM for such condos. This could of course change if Thailand begins to open up foreign ownership. Fat chance!

This was a mystery to me as well...until I explored options with the Thai Consulate here in US. They set me up with a non-imm "O" multiple entry visa. Good for in-an-out, one year, 90-days stay per entry. If this thing really works, I might consider buying a condo (but not in Pattaya of course). Since I split time between the US and Thailand, this visa will probably work great.


Dboy

Did they asked you why you need 'O' visa?