Relationships with Thai Guys

I just read My Name Lon, You Like Me? which is a tell all from a Thai girl whore.
It is a real eye opener, even for someone like me who has met more than my fair share of Thais who treat me as a walking ATM.
The question I have is about the Thai's family.
In the book My Name Lon, it is made clear that Thai women are usually exploited much more than the Thai men to bring in money to their families, and that for a Thai girl whore marrying a farang is like winning the lottery for such wonderful families.

We have all seen the straight farang being sucked dry by Thai women and their families.
My question is, is such total devotion to becoming an income stream for a troupe of parasites usually expected also when in a committed relationship with a Thai male? Or are such (in my opinion) scam relationships much less common because of the different roles of men versus women in Thai society?

You take on a relationship with a Thai, you don't fit into the Thai social hierarchy (since you're not a Thai) - there's only one role left which is an acknowledged position - you're the Big Man, the patron. Since many if not most Thai gay boys are "in the closet" you'll be represented as an eccentric foreigner who has adopted him. It's happened to me and many friends, over and over. So yes, it's the buffalo, fertlizer for the rice crop, mother's hospital bills, new motorcycle, schools bill for young brother (or sister) - you name it, you're it

Yes, of course ... but.
I expected more flames from this post, so good so far, so good.
To clarlify, I am talking about the most common type of farang Thai gay relationship we see in Thailand.
Older farang, younger Thai, some history of a commercial element.
Remember, even you if you met him and he was working as a waiter in a resto or whatever, doesn't mean there isn't a commercial aspect. In my experience, some of the more sophisticated manipulators do not work in traditional money boy roles.

I do recommend people read My Name Lon, You Like Me. It is about a girl, but it is written from the voice of an incredibly devious Thai female whore. She reveals all her secrets on how she sucks farangs dry and how stupid and naive many farangs are. Anyone who knows Thailand knows such people exist, and are even common in the commercial sex scene.

How can we as gay men who are seeking relationships, and do understand there is going to be some level of financial support for a younger Thai man, avoid being victimized?

I can say no quite well.
However, do you really actually truly believe it is that SIMPLE?
Because I don't.
Most of us have hearts and when we start to feel love for someone, it is quite easy to become vulnerable to this kind of thing, out of fear of losing what feels like a real relationship.
Of course, I do realize there is no pat answer for this, and each relationship is diferent, but I thought it might make an interesting discussion. Perhaps some others have something to contribute other than a reductionistic dismissal.
I believe this is a real issue for a lot us, maybe we can help each other.

How can we as gay men who are seeking relationships, and do understand there is going to be some level of financial support for a younger Thai man, avoid being victimized?

If a question can be an oxymoron this is certainly it--But here goes.
What kind of relationship do you have when it's at home? You are sending money; what are you getting for your money: nothing--unless you count the spoken (or implied?) promise that he will be waiting faithfully when you return; which he may be...providing nothing better has turned up in the meantime. That understood; who is victimizing whom? Is it possible 'you' is victimizing you? In your latest reply, you say, "Feels like a real relationship."

A Fractured Fable.
I've been envolved with 'a younger Thai man' for eight years--But not the same Thai man.
There was a bio-pic of Marilyn Monroe titled, This Year's Blond. In this case think, This Year's Thai..
When I go home, my money goes home--And there it stays until I return. There's an old addage: 'Why keep a cow when you can buy milk?' take that one step further: Why keep a cow when someone else is buying--And getting--the milk? Some butterflies may actually find a flower they want to share all their honey...pollen..whatever, with but at the end of the season this special breed: butterflyus farangus must fly home to hybernate--And the cycle repeats: the (Thai) flower becomes a butterfly, attracts other, honey laden, butterflies and may become a flower again, with one special, honey laden, butterfly, for some length of time: until the cycle starts yet again.
Hard hearted? Why? I've been nice & polite. I've left each flower with enough honey to sustain it until I come fluttering back; that none have done so is their problem. Many flowers may choose to be grasshoppers, fiddling the honey away while the sun shines; until 'winter' sets in: when the honey's all gone and it's time to fluff up those drooping petals, Petal, and get out and cross-pollenate. BTW: One lasted, on these terms, thru three seasons, another for two--But you'll never know unless you are willing to risk it. See, however, previous paragraph re. flower attracting another butterfly--And be prepared.
Well, as we are so often admonished; the honey they collect is their honey (to invest or squander as they choose.)--But there are two sides to that coin: my honey--That which is left in my 'hive' \ bank, back home, is mine...to invest or squander as I choose--And I choose to store it up so I may squander it on the next blossom in the garden...The Garden of Earthly Delights.
How you waste yours is certainly up to you but my advice: spend it where you get the most bang (Pun intended.) for your buck. When the bucks are going out and no bangs are coming in?...Well, that's a real waste! It's time to stop bucking...until banging season rolls around again.
Yet, I know it s'truth: "Though it's a long long time from May to December; the days grow short when you reach September...." Don't look now--But it's December.

I have no real problem with the cynic who has his heart heavily shielded, and a great big padlock on his wallet. In some ways I envy you, just at the moment I am feeling very vulnerable and wondering why I am taking the risk of falling in love with a Thai man `19 years younger than me....

For over seven years, about nine trips to LoS, I have managed (with the help of my very cynical/realistic friends) to be a total butterfly, having a great deal of honey for my money.

October 2004 I met my boyfriend..........now my heart is definitely ruling my head, but I am happy, if a little concerned about how things will work out.

I am so lucky to have good friends, many of whom know the world of Thailand very well, and understand how the rules of the game are played. They all think I have gone completely mad, but while they tell me exactly what they think, they also support me and I know they will still be there whatever happens, to pick me up if it all comes crashing down about my ears, or buy new hats for the wedding!

Of course the financial dependence is a real issue. I do not think I would commit to long-term financial support while we continue to live so far apart. I do not think I could bear too much longer of the constant fear that he will find someone younger, richer and better looking than me.

For me the only real hope lies in bringing him to live with me. And a key part of that plan is to ensure that he becomes independent of me (as far as possible) as soon as possible. So I pay for the English course, but he works part-time to earn his own pocket money, while I pay all the bills, fees, travel costs etc. And I support him while he gains real qualifications and establishes himself in a real job.

I am taking the risk, allowing myself to fall in love, but the risks are high (is it not always a huge risk to let someone in to your heart? Let them get so close that they could realy hurt you if they chose?). The choice is mine, and whatever happens I will not die of it.

Wish me luck? Good luck to all of you! I am off to Thailand on 1st January for two weeks with my man!

How many Thais do you see upset that they have or will be dumped by his farang ? They expect only the day from you. They have little expectation for a good tomorrow. And we, on the other hand, want this good thing to last forever. Fall in love and live happily ever after.
They can walk away from you with few regrets or feeling of great loss, where on the other hand we feel our life has come close to end.
Live for the day the same as they do and we should be happier. Easily said than done of course. Unless your brought up Thai.

A very good motto, life is short, especially for us farangs progressing beyond middle-age.
Goodlad, I am surprised by your post, would it be true to say that you have been hurt yourself? Did you try not to display your hurt in public? I am sure that Thai men also have feelings, and we have heard of some trying to kill themselves, I think they are human too!

Even for those who have only been around on the commercial Thai scene for a short time (forgive the pun) they have quickly learned that these ageing farang will promise the earth while they are on their holiday, a long way from the reality of their daily life, struggling to succeed at work, pay the mortgage and the bills. Once most of us go home, the holiday becomes a set of pleasant memories, and the suitcase goes back in the cupboard.

For young gay Thai men who have poor families and only limited prospects in their country, to have found a patron/lover and then be rejected by them must be devastating. The power of youth and beauty will fade in time, money and security endure far longer. We all fear being taken advantage of. There are many stories of Thai boyfriends who have a girlfriend on the side, or even a Thai boyfriend, as well as the pet farang. I think it is still rare for Thai to identify as gay in the way that we have in the west.

So it is a complex business, falling in love is always risky, but if you choose to fall for someone a great deal younger from a vastly different culture, then the risks increase exponentially. (I am beginning to frighten myself now!). I will try to minimise the risks, and I will give myself that chance at happiness. Remembering all the time that life on my own with my good job, decent home, and wonderful friends is not so bad.....

One man's, cynical, is another man's, realistic.

I agree 100%, Rich. I doubt I will ever relocate to Thailand; I'm never even sure if I'll return for a holiday; how unfair to lead some sweet num to think otherwise.

As for someone feeling, 'used.' I don't feel I am, or have been, used. Maybe I know how to pick `em; maybe I've just been lucky. I do the best I can by them and, so far, it's been worth every baht & every minute--Even Water-buffalo-story-angel-boy I fell for on my second trip--And my only venture into Remittance (Webster: To transmit or send money, esp. via long distance.) Boy Land. He made me laugh, damn it! I still look at his picture and smile. That alone is worth every baht, of someone's inheritance, I spent!

Nor do I believe they have felt used. I think--I go so far as to say, 'I'm sure'--they would be insulted if I were to suggest they were used. Last-season's num said, "I work bar, I go customer." A dose of cold reality too far? Well, you'd have to have been looking at him when he--All Butch-chewing-three-penny-nails--said it. Birds sang, bells rang, flowers bloomed, rainbows and stars fell--And I was kicked in the head by a butterfly one more time...how many times since first-season's num said, "It's my business."

When I was a little boy there was a late-night disc jockey who signed off saying, "If you must carry the torch, hold it high!"
Damn right!

[Dodger]

It seems that most of us agree that Thai boys commonly manipulate their older and wiser (?) farang counterparts for financial security - and that farangs manipulate their younger Thai mates to fuel their emotional needs, although the question still remainsтАжis a successful farang/Thai long term relationship really possible?

Like most others here, IтАЩve spent years witnessing farang/Thai interactions involving both frequent visitors and full time residents in LOS, and after time some basic trends start to become very apparent. One thing IтАЩve observed is that the boys view the vast majority of farangs simply as тАЬButterflyтАЩsтАЭ and do so based on a learned knowledge of our personalities and repetitious patterns. Trying to build a relationship in this type of environment is challenging to say the least, and thatтАЩs not even considering the vast range of cultural differences.

First, letтАЩs categorize ourselvesтАжAS THE BOYS SEE US:

The Committed Butterfly:
A farang who has sexual relationships with multiple partners who has absolutely no desire for a committed relationship.

Most Common Trait:
Tells the boys heтАЩs only in it for the sex and friendship and avoids any and all commitments beyond that point.

Percentage of Farangs in This Category:
25%

The Uncommitted Butterfly:
A farang who has sexual relationships with multiple partners, who is open to a possible relationship if and when he meets the right boy. He typically has a #1 boy on the shelf that he spends a lot of time with, but heтАЩs still just a fill-in amongst the other sexual flings.

Most Common Trait:
Tells the boys that he doesnтАЩt have a steady boyfriend, gets a little mushy at times and starts making commitments beyond his capability, typically when heтАЩs had too much to drink. Offs #8 with #12 is standing right next to him, when it was #12 that he was romancing the night before in his room. He may start providing a little financial support beyond the normal tipping process, but this is typically a token amount of money and ends in about one year.

Percentage of Farangs in This Category:
55%

The Deceitful Butterfly:
A farang who has sexual relationships with multiple partners who has absolutely no desire for a committed relationship, although, tells the boys that he does, with many going as far as to promise financial support in the future which rarely ever materializes. Falls in love with a different boy every visit and leaves a trail of hollow commitments in his path.

Most Common Trait:
A farang who has to do the run-dodge-jump routine every time heтАЩs near a gogoтАЩs or beer bar to avoid being spotted. Farangs who have made so many promises to so many boys in the past, that they start to blame it on the boys labeling them all as liars and con artists. Typically, a farang in this category is also highly cynical about the Thai culture (and sometimes life in general) and always views himself as the victim.

Percentage of Farangs in This Category:
15%

The Fully Transitioned Butterfly:
The farang who falls in love with a boy and commits himself unconditionally to supporting his welfare, and that of the boys family if needed, and does so.

Most Common Trait:
A farang who no longer frequents the working boy scene, nor does he permit his partner to, and focuses his life primarily on creating a new (enhanced) life for his partner. This farang, few as there are based on my observations, has the capacity to understand the Thai culture with a willingness to accept compromise as a cornerstone of his relationship. This farang understands the significance of helping his partnerтАЩs family and fully accepts this role to make the relationship work.

Percentage of Farangs in This Category:
<5%

END OF CATEGORIES

We can play with the percentages all we want, but the main point (IMO) is that over 95% of the farangs who visit LOS either donтАЩt want a LTR, say they do but fail with their commitments in the long term (>2 years), or just flat out lie about it.

WhatтАЩs really interesting (here I go throwing my darts again) is that that well over 50% of the visiting farangs provide some type of financial support to their boy of the year, although, only send a token amount - not adding up to more than U.S. $200-300/year. This is certainly not enough to support the boy, let alone his family, and by no means serves to solidify any type of commitment on the boys behalf. Based on the Thai boys understanding of farangs, the boy would have to be crazy to view this token donation as anything more than just what it isтАжa few bucks to keep you on the line until my next return. Nothing more, nothing less.




One critical component that seems to be very significant to the ThaiтАЩs, even more than in the west, is TIME. Remembering, that most Thai boys, regardless of they are working (actively) on the sex circuit, or not, view the actions of 95% of all farangs as being hollow in terms of any real long term aspirations, and the magic number seems to be somewhere around 3 years.

I know in my own relationship that nothing I could have said or done would have changed the way he really feels inside regarding our future together, until I had stuck by his side for that long of a duration. Of course, he had already witnessed me floating between the various Butterfly categories as described earlier, and had (and possibly still has) every reason to doubt my real intentions.

Last year, the two of us were heading into the condo and a motor bike boy said something to him in Thai. My BF smiled and the two of them exchanged a few comments as we continued walking toward the entrance (and no, it wasnтАЩt THAT motorbike boy). Once in the elevator, he turned to me with a serious expression and a twinkle in his eye and told me that the boy wanted to know how long weтАЩve been together. Apparently, when he informed the boy that weтАЩve been together for a little over 3 years now, the boy was very impressed.

Most farang/Thai relationships never stretch out beyond the farangs holiday period, some last a year or so, which equates to few return visits by the farang, with the vast majority of relationships coming to a dead halt around the two year mark.

Regardless of how honest and sincere a farang looks or sounds, regardless of the tears flowing from his eyes, regardless of the gifts he lays at his lovers feetтАжin the Thai boys eyes heтАЩs simply lying and cannot be trusted. ThatтАЩs the reality of how the survival game is played in LOS, and they learned it from usтАжWE ARE A 95% FAILURE RATE!!!

IтАЩve spent years weighing out the advantages and disadvantages of remaining a butterfly. The fun of the chase (as if there is a chase in LOS), having different sexual partners to match the mood on any given night (or day), being free to have a fling with anyone I want at the drop of a coin (almost literally) with absolutely no commitment or strings attached. Then on the other hand thereтАЩs Boy Special. A guy who is moody, ice cold in bed unless all the stars in the universe are perfectly aligned, wakes up in the morning in a bitchy coma state until heтАЩs had at least a 2 hour dose of those fucking Thai cartoons, who hates Italian pizza and bitches about me snoring so muchтАж.hard choice right??? Yes, ironically, itтАЩs a very hard choice.

I love HIM like IтАЩve never loved anyone in my lifetime, and one of the problems isтАжhe knows it. I know he knows it and he knows that I know that he knows itтАжugh! He didnтАЩt at first, at least I donтАЩt think he did, but right around the 3 year anniversary in our relationship things started to change, and change for the better. His understanding (over TIME) of my feelings towards him has finally started to cement our relationship together. Nothings perfect. We still fight and argue and run off once in a while to get out of each others hair, but I really believe that he can finally see the truth in me, and me in him, and nothing but TIME could have accomplished that.

I try to measure the success (or failure) of our relationship using a few simple metrics, e.g., heтАЩs starting to show a real interest in learning more about me and my family, my upbringing, my work at home, my hobbies, etc. He started introducing me to his real friends away from the working circuit and finally shows an interest in having me meet his family members in his home town of Udorn Thani. He also, gradually over time, has showed a higher interest in hanging around with me in the day time, versus, dashing off to be with his friends, and last, but not least, he looks in my eyes when IтАЩm speaking to him, versus, going into that trance with his eyes glued to the wallтАжLOL

IтАЩm still a Butterfly in his eyes, as we all are, but finally TIME is on our side.

Mai pen rai

That was quite an excellent post, thank you very much for that.
Very illuminating.
Yes, of course, there is an atmosphere of MUTUAL distrust.
The Thai boys have reason to doubt our intentions.
However, I don't think we have scratched the surface of the level of manipulation occuring by sex workers, specifically the financial manipulation of farangs when they do actually enter relationships with them.
I think the idea of COMPROMISE is key.
As you did indicate, for these to work, both sides need to learn more about the other's culture and bend with it.
Interestingly, it is not part of western culture for a spouse to be the total support of an entire clan of his spouse.

My dear Dodger,

You again!

Each time I try to write something real about my attempts at a relationship you appear! And what you have to say is so profound and you leave me with a real sense of hope. Thank you for that.

Thai men are wonderful, and the man I love is even more wonderful than most! Or at least he is to me....
On the 2nd of January, when he finishes work and we have some private time together, I have some really serious issues to talk to him about. Maybe when he hears the truth about me he will run away screaming into the night........

Maybe he will still love me, and allow me to love and take care of him.

We shall see. For now I am terrified that I may lose him, and the journey to Thailand on 1st January is gong to be a long one. I shall bolster myself up with a few glasses of champagne and some smoked salmon at Heathrow...

Anyone around in early January in Pattaya? Memories Bar in Sunee with the wonderful company of Jack, Ralph and the lovely Mr Oud would be a wonderful place to meet. My name is Richard by the way, travelling from London, and I should be delighted to meet anyone from the board if you are around and can bear my company for an evening or part thereof.

Cheers all!!

[Dodger]

Thaiquila...

I've formed many of my opinions based on the fact that working Thai boys have one objective and that's to get as much money as they possibly can so they can support their impoverished families and get the hell out of Dodge as soon as possible. That's just the nature of their work. And if they can arrange (manipulate) to receive funds from more than one farang simultaneously, they'll do it...every single time.

I hope I don't sound too one-sided in this, but in all reality, the Thai's view all of us as being filthy rich, and in all fairness, we are, according to their standard of living. They've watched many of us blow more money in a restaurant than they spent for food in a month, and sometimes receive less money for their tip than the idiot spent at the restaurant 2 hours and 1 blowjob earlier.

I'll make the same statement about the Thai's that I made about the farangs...don't believe a word they tell you. If they think you want to be loved, they'll tell you "I love you so much". If you want to be their one-and-only love, they'll tell you "only you my love," if you want to missed, they'll tell you "miss you so much."...and so on. Remember, the farang controls the game with his money and a working boy is going to do his best to give you whatever you want, and all for the sole purpose of making money.

I hate to sound like Kevin Trudeau in his new book "Natural Cures," but he has one thing right...It's All About the Money!



.
[/quote]

[Dodger]

Richard...

I just wanted to say hi and hope you enjoy your trip on Jan 1st. Please pass my best regards onto the folks at Memories and tell Jack that I finally found the book...he'll know what you're talking about.

Good luck with your discussion with your BF. I've grown to know your personality through this and previous forums and think that you'll do just fine.

P.S. If you want to feel relaxed - forget about the smoked salmon and try a hit of Acapulco Gold.

Your post 're relationships' was a great read. Appreciate your sharing with us. :)

[bigben]

Dodger

Right-on with your recent post.

Enlightening and informative. I agree with most of your observations. Not sure about all the percentages, but not far off I reckon.

One thing that I would like to share because I have just recently realized this, is that the boys (and girls) have a well maintained and greased network among themselves. Unlike most of us, they share information with each other about farangs. When I say share, I mean that the information is true and honest and helps them achieve their respective goal(s) with farangs. Yes, I know we share information with each other but not even close to the level and accuracy they do.

From what I can decipher, most of the information that is shared among sex workers, (boys and girls alike) is: what is he worth, what does he want, what does he usually pay, how long will he be here or where does he live and of course, where is his origin.

As most of you know and not being disrespectful, but the workers are not the brightest lit light bulbs in the hallway. However they do excel remarkably well in some areas. One is their ability to communicate information with each other when the information being shared is valuable to them as an individual. Thais genuinely like each other, unlike us farangs. They treat each other quite nicely. Although they have differences between them, when it comes to farang or money, they will engage that superior network sharing ability at all costs. Kind of like those tiny black ants in the kitchen. One little morsel of sugar left on the counter and the whole colony will enjoy the feast within hours, always checking each other in the line going to and coming back from the feast.

Golden rules as read somewhere before on this site, always treat them with respect in spite of the fact they know more about you (in some areas) then you know about yourself.

Happy Holidays

[Dodger]

big ben...

I've always been amazed at the Thai boys abilities to network and share information within their working community. They can operate those cell phones at the speed of light and usually maintain a list of a hundred phone numbers of other working boy contacts.

This seems to be a common trait amongst all Thai's, even outside of the working circuit, based on their cooperative life styles and Buddhist teachings which emphasize the importance of SHARING in order to receive merit and advocate interdependence as being key to living the right life.

The sharing of information about farangs within the network is nothing more than just a good solid business practice, and in many cases, can provide a Thai boy with a little safety net as well.

I was lounging around the old Moonlight Gogo a few years ago (used to be located on Second Rd. & Soi2) when this huge ape like farang staggered in the door appearing as if he just escaped from an insane asylum. He practically dislodged the small serving table as he tried to stuff his fat ass in the chair. His clothes were filthy as if he had been sleeping in the gutter and he had a huge scar across his face, and it didn't look like a shaving accident.

After taking one look at this beast, that boys did an about face on the stage and just tryed to ignore him. A few minutes later this guy motions for the mamasan and instructs her to bring #17 to his table. My heart almost stopped at that point, as the boy he picked was an obvious newcomer and appeared to be far too young to be there in the first place.

Then I observed the following: The mamasan went behind the bar and placed a call on her cell phone. She then flagged one of the waiters to come to where she was standing and gave him some instructions. The waiter then walked over to where the Beast and the boy were seated with an angry expression on his face and started yelling at the boy in Thai. Then the waiter reached across the table and yerked the boy out of his seat by his arm and continued yelling at him until the boy had disappeared into the back room. The waiter then informed the Beast that the boy had been caught stealing and was no longer employed there. She then paid for the Beasts drink and informed him that they were closing for the night.

Two nights later I returned to Moonlight and spoke with both the mamasan and the waiter involved with the confrontation. The mamasan was able to get a full profile on the Beast during her phone call, and also learned that he would be departing Thailand in 2 more days. Two days later, the boy who almost fell victim to the Beast was back on the stage smiling away.

The mamasan was able to learn all she wanted about this guy with one simple phone call: His name, hotel where he stayed, duration of his visit, as well as, past problems the Beast had caused in other venues around town.

I was impressed and told the waiter he should be awarded an Emmy for his performance. Then a purchased a drink for the boy and sat back to enjoy the show.

fascinating post this is!
Man I have soooooooooo much to learn, but this forum is sure speeding up the process.

Reminds me of my old stomping ground the SOHO GO GO BAR.
I remember going there one night as i always did and seeing a new ladyboy.I knew all the boys from there,some were even there about 5 years and some i see now all these years later working in Sunee bars.
Anyway to cut a long story short i saw this new boy ,mamasan said he had turned 19,he was quite small with lipstick on.He starts talking to my regualr boys on stage then tries to hide behind the pole.AS i was very very good friends with the then mamasan ,the guy with the nice shirts,still keep in contact with him, I decided the more the boy hid from me it was turning me on,just to see him hiding.I sat there drinking my coke thinking how i could spank him.Then i paid the off fee for him and another of my regular boys and i could see this boy had disappeared out the back.
Just the look on his face and him hiding from me really made my night.
BAck in July i offed 2 boys from Kboys one of them was a regular for me and i offed a new boy and all 3 of us went to the disco,anyway my regualar boy started talking a lot to the new boy whilst i was dancing and getting blind drunk.I hadnt seen the new boy for over 20 mins and my regular boy said he had to go home urgently.I knew something was wrong and he told me he had told the new boy about what we would do back in the room and he got scared and left..Needless to say my regular boy done the work of 2 boys that night to make up for firing his mouth off.
Only to be interrupted by the receptionist at HOWARDS where i was staying claiming he had heard barking noises coming from the room.

Dodger I think your classifications are too strong

I have a western partner, and a thai partner, both of whom I plan to maintain long term affectionate relationships with. Both of my partners fuck about like rabbits far more than I do, and we all make it a point in hand to poke fun at each others amusing sexual stories over lots of beer.

What sort of butterfly does that make me? Relatively, I am the prude of the three, because I only get laid when on vacation in LOS ;)

Thaiquila...

I've formed many of my opinions based on the fact that working Thai boys have one objective and that's to get as much money as they possibly can so they can support their impoverished families and get the hell out of Dodge as soon as possible. That's just the nature of their work. And if they can arrange (manipulate) to receive funds from more than one farang simultaneously, they'll do it...every single time.

I hope I don't sound too one-sided in this, but in all reality, the Thai's view all of us as being filthy rich, and in all fairness, we are, according to their standard of living. They've watched many of us blow more money in a restaurant than they spent for food in a month, and sometimes receive less money for their tip than the idiot spent at the restaurant 2 hours and 1 blowjob earlier.

I'll make the same statement about the Thai's that I made about the farangs...don't believe a word they tell you. If they think you want to be loved, they'll tell you "I love you so much". If you want to be their one-and-only love, they'll tell you "only you my love," if you want to missed, they'll tell you "miss you so much."...and so on. Remember, the farang controls the game with his money and a working boy is going to do his best to give you whatever you want, and all for the sole purpose of making money.

I hate to sound like Kevin Trudeau in his new book "Natural Cures," but he has one thing right...It's All About the Money!



.
[/quote]
This view is too harsh even for me.
I think its time to take another delusion pill.

[Dodger]

Objective...

Do you and your western lover travel together to LOS, or do you come alone?

Is your Thai partner your one and only lover in LOS?

Have you made any commitments to your Thai lover?

How long has your Thai partner been in the picture?

Answer these questions and we should be able to find the right category.

mai pen rai

Dodger, yes I have travelled to LOS with my farang partner, although he enjoys it less than me.
I get hung up about definitions of words such as lover... The basis for both mentioned relationships is an enduring caring affection, with a hint of sex. Is that love? Don't know. More like a loyal old couple sort of thing.

I don't consider my farang or thai partners to be lovers and find the term “boyfriend” to be suggest a transient relationship, but to answer your question, he is the only thai boy I have maintained affection with for a long period of time (about 3 years). He has visited me here in the UK too. (“Now maak maak!”)

I have made no legal commitments to my thai boy if that's what you mean, however we have reached plenty of agreements through negotiation. I suppose the big question is, if he asked me to send money, would I? I would scrutinize, but do it if I felt it was a genuine need. A big problem to me, is that too many thai boys become accustomed to living off a farang, this is something I am unwilling to sustain, in any partner thai or otherwise. Just how I was raised.

Wow, not been asked so many questions about me in a long time!

[Dodger]

Objective...

Assuming by "sharing your affection" you mean he is your #1 boy...and also assuming from your comments that you are having sex with other working boys during the process, that would you put in in the "Uncommitted Butterfly" category.

I'm in a similar situation (category) myself, only without a boyfriend at home...ugh!

Yes I do have a lot of sex with barboys while in thailand. I am not sure what a number 1 boy means, I certainly don't equate a partner to bar boys flings though. Sex lasts an evening, a partner last years. Hopefully more!

I have made meaningful and enduring emotional commitments to both my thai partner and my uk partner. Still, by your classification system I am found to be uncommitted. Is this due to a lack of interest in financial contributions? Don't want to buy a wife either!

Also, your uncommitted butterfly lies about his status, makes unrealistic commitments, and sounds like a sentimental but drunken soul!

I think your classification system might be too fixated on money.

[Dodger]

Objective...

Many visitors and expats (including myself) fall into the "Uncommitted Butterfly" category where they have one special boy who they see on a fairly regular basis (#1 boy in their terminology) and other boys they simply off for sex.


The Uncommitted Butterfly:
A farang who has sexual relationships with multiple partners, who is open to a possible relationship if and when he meets the right boy. He typically has a #1 boy on the shelf that he spends a lot of time with, but heтАЩs still just a fill-in amongst the other sexual flings.

It sounds like you've made some pretty heart felt commitments to your Thai partner...and 3 years is considered a long-stay as I mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm in a similar situation myself, although constantly second guessing myself as the clock moves forward.

Good luck with your relationship.

mai pen rai

EDITH SAID-I doubt I will ever relocate to Thailand; I'm never even sure if I'll return for a holiday; how unfair to lead some sweet num to think otherwise.

oH tell me why EDITH darling,I hope you do return for a holiday.I find your posts very witty.You seem to be very smart and streetwise judging by your posts.I would love to show you my bondage equipment next time we are both in Pattaya. Please tell us why your not sure if you will return for a holiday,you have me shocked and devastated.

EDITH SAID-I doubt I will ever relocate to Thailand; I'm never even sure if I'll return for a holiday; how unfair to lead some sweet num to think otherwise.

oH tell me why EDITH darling,I hope you do return for a holiday.I find your posts very witty.You seem to be very smart and streetwise judging by your posts.I would love to show you my bondage equipment next time we are both in Pattaya. Please tell us why your not sure if you will return for a holiday,you have me shocked and devastated.

I could be dead--Or (same-same.) in Blackpool or L.A.

I am not interested in seeing your equipment...Bondage, that is...unless I can use it on you, slave!
But being the cruel and crazy sadist I am, might let num tie you up, und cover you with the blanket--so you can't see: while he und I get it on...in your bed. Then, being the cruel and crazy sadists we are, we will feed you prunes, give you a warm honey emema--Und go home...after hanging the, 'Do Not Disturb,' sign on your door...und leave you there: for the (poor) maid to find in the morning...some morning.
Did I mention the red ants?

Sia Jy, I know I should not make fun at your expense, Mrs Ydney: it's like laughing at the Zimmer-frame Marching Band--But you bring out the devil in me!

[lonelywombat]

[ it's like laughing at the Zimmer-frame Marching Band--But you bring out the devil in me![/quote]

Thanks for this quote Edith you have made my day

Now I have something useful to join. Where can I sign up.

[ it's like laughing at the Zimmer-frame Marching Band--But you bring out the devil in me!

Thanks for this quote Edith you have made my day

Now I have something useful to join. Where can I sign up.[/quote]


When you see them pass by just fall in with the appropriate section*. (Brass, woodwinds & precussion only; no grand pianos or electronic instruments. One O.F. attached the battery pack to the zimmer frame! She lit up real pretty...till the Soi-dogs got aholt of `er! On the bright side: it solved her hairy-back problem. The head was not a problem--Not a hair on the FOC...or on her head...but the ear and nose hair!...Kiddies screamed & threw stones!...thought a Dragon was loose!)

*WARNING: Don't try to jump to the head of the group; some of our members can swing those things and still manage to maintain an upright position! (Providing they're sober....Hasn't happened yet but you never know.)

(What do you play? We could use a teeolet (Toilet seat with harp-strings...But if you play one, you know that.) and another tuba. Pearl used the present one as a sits-bath. Now all it plays is Tiny Bubbles!)

About Thais and their sharing of information ...

I live in a pretty small town in Europe, we have a few gay venues and a small "colony" of thaiboys brought here by "farangs". I know that some of these boys have "connections" with the "boys" in Phuket where I met my bf the first time.

My bf stayed with me here for 3 months last summer but is back in Thailand again waiting for his new visa. I never noticed that he had any contact with the other thaiboys in my town and he told me that he didn't want to.

Now when I'm going out without my bf I have a feeling that the "boys" in my town watching me differently then before and when I later talk to my bf (who is up in north Thailand now with his parents while he is waiting to go back to Europe) I have a feeling that he knows exactly what I have been doing ... A couple of weeks ago there were a thaiboy form another city that was visiting my town who I was talking to in a disco and a few days later I could here that my bf knew about it, even if he didn't said it openly he asked a lot of questions about that evening, if I met somebody etc.

One thing for sure, never underestimate a Thaiboy. As said before here on the board, they probably know more about you than yourself :)

...............not when you work for ASIO.

The THAI CONNECTION. It goes along way I must admit.

In my city there are no Thai boys but a lot off Thai Lady's, and the first thing what happens last year, if my friend was here, if he meet a i Thai lady he go talk to them, giving Phone numbers, addresses and before i new , i was crossing in my city to say hello, to his new Thai lady friends . They given him Thai movies, Thai food and a lot off information. Thai people are very close and very help full in farang land. I real not surprised if your Thai friend now about you a lot. Thai Community is very close and even more in farang land .

[DamienZ]

WOW!
I'm so grateful that Wombat has suggested digging (hmm isnt that wombats do?) into the archives of SGT for some nice juicy grubs and roots to chew on. It reminds me of why I was attracted to SGT in the first place. I am still looking through the posts and what a wealth of wisdom and information! Anyway this one by Dodger seemed to really strike a chord (what type of butterflyus farangus are you?)and it still is a really good read-I guess the classics never lose their appeal. Thanks Dodger/Thanks Wombat!

Question: Has any of the opinions here changed? Has a new species of butterflyus farangus been found and classified? I would look forward to hearing any serious sensible replies. Farangs falling in love with Thais and vice versa what a great topic! I thought Baziel's cut and paste was interesting as well (Farang falling in love with a MB)-but I chose Dodgers.

:thumbleft:
DZ

[andrewcraig]

Hey if you had included a link to the post you had found it might make sense to us all.
Sounds interesting . If you find some more, please share.

[cdnmatt]

I think the majority of farangs who enter into relationships with Thais underestimate what they're getting themselves into. Alot of farangs seem to be under the impression that they'll just come to Thailand, throw some money at a guy, and have a boyfriend for life. That line of thinking is delusional, to say the least. It's the exact same as finding a loving partner in the West. It's not easy finding someone you love on a deep and intrinsical level, and who loves you back in the same way. We all know, those types of relationships only happen a few times throughout your life, and it's not something you can buy. The money doesn't matter, while farangs think it's the most important thing, which is why the majority of Thai-Farang relationships end in misery.

Ever since I joined this forum, everyone has continuously told me how I'm stupid, naive, clueless, and simply don't understand what I'm getting myself into. Yet, here we are 11 months later. Have a nice 3 bedroom house on the outskirts of Khon Kaen, a couple good farang friends as neighbors, and even a cute puppy! Mama's dog had a couple babies, so we took one in. Cute, little pudgy, smiley fucker. :-)

We've definitely had our ups and downs, and have had our struggles. We've come out on top though, and are both all the better for it. So yeah, don't think you can just buy a boyfriend simply because he ended up being born in a poverty stricken village. It doesn't work like that. It's alot of work, struggles, and difficulty, just like any relationship in the West, and you have to truly love each other, or else it won't work. Up to the individual, but definitely worth it though, at least for us.

[Thai Dyed]

I think the majority of farangs... blah...blah...blah... at least for us.

Hey dude! You never told us how that drunken motocy drama played out with the bf. Huh? When you disappeared from the board for several days after posting that sleepless at 4am, some of us thought you had come to a sticky end.

[DamienZ]

Oh Duh!!
My Bad. My apologies.
Thanks much.
DZ

I think the majority of farangs who enter into relationships with Thais underestimate what they're getting themselves into. Alot of farangs seem to be under the impression that they'll just come to Thailand, throw some money at a guy, and have a boyfriend for life. That line of thinking is delusional, to say the least. It's the exact same as finding a loving partner in the West. It's not easy finding someone you love on a deep and intrinsical level, and who loves you back in the same way. We all know, those types of relationships only happen a few times throughout your life, and it's not something you can buy. The money doesn't matter, while farangs think it's the most important thing, which is why the majority of Thai-Farang relationships end in misery.
[X] Beginning is easy - continuing is hard. And there is a little complication - we are not Thais.

[Beachlover]

I think the majority of farangs who enter into relationships with Thais underestimate what they're getting themselves into. Alot of farangs seem to be under the impression that they'll just come to Thailand, throw some money at a guy, and have a boyfriend for life. That line of thinking is delusional, to say the least. It's the exact same as finding a loving partner in the West. It's not easy finding someone you love on a deep and intrinsical level, and who loves you back in the same way. We all know, those types of relationships only happen a few times throughout your life, and it's not something you can buy. The money doesn't matter, while farangs think it's the most important thing, which is why the majority of Thai-Farang relationships end in misery.

Ever since I joined this forum, everyone has continuously told me how I'm stupid, naive, clueless, and simply don't understand what I'm getting myself into. Yet, here we are 11 months later. Have a nice 3 bedroom house on the outskirts of Khon Kaen, a couple good farang friends as neighbors, and even a cute puppy! Mama's dog had a couple babies, so we took one in. Cute, little pudgy, smiley fucker. :-)

We've definitely had our ups and downs, and have had our struggles. We've come out on top though, and are both all the better for it. So yeah, don't think you can just buy a boyfriend simply because he ended up being born in a poverty stricken village. It doesn't work like that. It's alot of work, struggles, and difficulty, just like any relationship in the West, and you have to truly love each other, or else it won't work. Up to the individual, but definitely worth it though, at least for us.

I suppose if money is what gets your foot in the door... you're still going to need to overcome all the other challenges down the track (perhaps even more so than relationships that didn't started with money).

Nice to hear you're doing well, Matt. For a moment, some of us thought you'd been "bumped off"in the sticks...

[cdnmatt]

And there is a little complication - we are not Thais.

That can actually work to your advantage though. For example, Kim has even said he wants his little sister to find a farang boyfriend. He doesn't want her to have a Thai boyfriend, because he thinks any Thai she finds in the village will lie to her, cheat on her, and beat her. He genuinely wants her to find, and settle down with a good farang.

Go figure, eh? Up here in Issan, people seem to view farangs in a much better light than they do in Pattaya.

[Brad the Impala]

Ever since I joined this forum, everyone has continuously told me how I'm stupid, naive, clueless, and simply don't understand what I'm getting myself into.

Not everyone. The overwhelming majority certainly. Glad to hear that it is working out well.

What I think is the mistake that many men (straight/bi/gay) do is use money to get a guy and expect that to grow into something different. That is the delusional part.

Are men naif or they just like to fool themselves into thinking these guys who could be their greatgrandchildren love them for real?

Things should be kept professional if that's the way they were born. I pay, you do as I say. Otherwise fuck off and on to the next.
Problems arise because men lose the grip, blinded and dumbed by this illusional "love".

But 10 to 1 this is not the way it works for the guys (or girls for that matter), they know very well what they want and they know the strategies to get it.
It happens in Thailand and anywhere else in the world. Why? Because generally speaking men are dumb and shallow.

Count how many men you know who ended up that way, and then count how many women ended up that way. Why? Because women are more intelligent and don't care to humiliate themselves chasing fresh meat they couldn't get if they didn't spend money on escorts. They focus more on personality and to hell the beer belly and receeding hairline. Oh, and they have something called "dignity" that is rarely part of the male DNA.

[francois]

I think the majority of farangs who enter into relationships with Thais underestimate what they're getting themselves into. Alot of farangs seem to be under the impression that they'll just come to Thailand, throw some money at a guy, and have a boyfriend for life. That line of thinking is delusional, to say the least. I

Yet, here we are 11 months later. Have a nice 3 bedroom house on the outskirts of Khon Kaen, a couple good farang friends as neighbors, and even a cute puppy! Mama's dog had a couple babies, so we took one in. Cute, little pudgy, smiley fucker. :-)

So yeah, don't think you can just buy a boyfriend simply because he ended up being born in a poverty stricken village. I

Matt, Just what is it that makes you such an expert on Thai-Farang relationships?

Everything you have written has to do with how much you have spent on your bf including the 3 bedroom house and you say you are not buying a boyfriend?

You really do come across as a know it all.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f271/PRO198/girlsassylarge.gif

Because women are more intelligent and don't care to humiliate themselves chasing fresh meat they couldn't get if they didn't spend money on escorts. They focus more on personality and to hell the beer belly and receeding hairline.
http://drawforjoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/expired-prostitute.jpg

Oh, and they have something called "dignity" that is rarely part of the male DNA.

[Beachlover]

Matt, Just what is it that makes you such an expert on Thai-Farang relationships?

This is such a stupid way to think, francois.

Has he ever said he's an expert? Must he be an absolute expert with 20 years' experience to comment on his own experiences and explore his thoughts and reasoning as he discovers and learns?

This is what I don't get about many members in this forum. Everything's got to be about being RIGHT or WRONG. Black or white. There's no exploratory middle ground where you're trying to figure things out for the first time.

What a stupid limiting way to think. Maybe it's an old age or different generation thing. You all sound like you came out of a school classroom where everything hinged on getting answers RIGHT. There's zero merit in a wrong answer. It's not about your approach, way of thinking or HOW you develop an answer... it's just about rope learning to be RIGHT.


You really do come across as a know it all.

No, that's the way you perceive it. To you*, anyone who recounts an experience or offers some reasoning or opinion has to be 100% RIGHT or it's not valid and shouldn't be posted at all. How f*cked is that when what we really have is someone willing to be very open about telling his own experiences and mistakes and thoughts for discussion?

Matt's typical post starts with... "this is what happened [his observations]"... and then goes onto "I think this is why it happened... and what I need to do next... anyone else have any thoughts? [reasoning, opinion, opening for discussion and feedback]".

But instead of positive discussion, all you f*cksticks come back with, "oh stop trying to be know it all"... "you're an idiot, break up with him now"... "what makes you an expert"...etc.

Did any of you ACTUALLY experience your youth and twenties or were you all just BORN as 50 year old authoritative dickheads?

*Not just picking on you - I'm referring to many members here

[francois]

*Not just picking on you - I'm referring to many members here

Happy to hear your not picking on me! Stupid, f*cksticks, dickheads.....No doubt many members will enjoy your opinion of them.

Matt can say whatever he wishes however in his post he used words like "majority of farangs", "lots of farangs", "delusional". How does he know all this? I sure would not be so cavalier as to how others think and act but then, I am from another generation.

And I do agree with you, I perceive that Matt is a know it all based on what he posted.

[allieb]

And there is a little complication - we are not Thais.

That can actually work to your advantage though. For example, Kim has even said he wants his little sister to find a farang boyfriend. He doesn't want her to have a Thai boyfriend, because he thinks any Thai she finds in the village will lie to her, cheat on her, and beat her. He genuinely wants her to find, and settle down with a good farang.
Go figure, eh? Up here in Issan, people seem to view farangs in a much better light than they do in Pattaya.



That's a load of bollocks, it's so simple, a farang is a ticket to financial stability and a Thai, well go figure that one out

[cdnmatt]

Matt, Just what is it that makes you such an expert on Thai-Farang relationships?

I've been living in Thailand for the past year, and spent 8 months here a few years ago. How many more years should I live here before you believe it's acceptable for me to form my own opinion? You have your opinions, and I have mine. This is a conversational forum afterall, isn't it?

As for coming off as a "know it all", I don't know, my apologies I guess. It's my job, and why I get paid. I don't generally have the luxury of being able to say "I don't know".



Why? Because generally speaking men are dumb and shallow.

Geez, you sure like your sterotyping. Yes, I'm shallow and dumb, and so is every other male I know. And you're right, women never get manipulated, or emotionally & mentally abused, because they're just so intelligent. Do you really voice these opinions to your friends in public? I'd expect a black eye if I ever talked like that.


That's a load of bollocks, it's so simple, a farang is a ticket to financial stability and a Thai, well go figure that one out

Do you really believe that? Every Thai who ended up being born into a poor village, only wants a farang simply for money, and nothing else? He's willing to endure living everyday with a farang who doesn't even love for years, and go through all the struggles & difficulties that entails, just for a bit of money? The fact he has someone in life who loves him, is honest & faithful to him, and treats him with dignity & respect doesn't matter? Issan boys are so shallow and small minded, that those aspects of life don't register with them, and it's simply all about the money? Really?

Come on, you can't possibly believe that...

[Brad the Impala]

Matt, Just what is it that makes you such an expert on Thai-Farang relationships?

This is such a stupid way to think, francois.

Has he ever said he's an expert? Must he be an absolute expert with 20 years' experience to comment on his own experiences and explore his thoughts and reasoning as he discovers and learns?

This is what I don't get about many members in this forum. Everything's got to be about being RIGHT or WRONG. Black or white. There's no exploratory middle ground where you're trying to figure things out for the first time.

What a stupid limiting way to think. Maybe it's an old age or different generation thing. You all sound like you came out of a school classroom where everything hinged on getting answers RIGHT. There's zero merit in a wrong answer. It's not about your approach, way of thinking or HOW you develop an answer... it's just about rope learning to be RIGHT.


You really do come across as a know it all.

No, that's the way you perceive it. To you*, anyone who recounts an experience or offers some reasoning or opinion has to be 100% RIGHT or it's not valid and shouldn't be posted at all. How f*cked is that when what we really have is someone willing to be very open about telling his own experiences and mistakes and thoughts for discussion?

Matt's typical post starts with... "this is what happened [his observations]"... and then goes onto "I think this is why it happened... and what I need to do next... anyone else have any thoughts? [reasoning, opinion, opening for discussion and feedback]".

But instead of positive discussion, all you f*cksticks come back with, "oh stop trying to be know it all"... "you're an idiot, break up with him now"... "what makes you an expert"...etc.

Did any of you ACTUALLY experience your youth and twenties or were you all just BORN as 50 year old authoritative dickheads?

*Not just picking on you - I'm referring to many members here


Couldn't have put it better. Agreed completely. This forum goes through phases, and at this point the number of interesting posters here is in a very small minority. I would count yourself and Matt in that minority. Most people here agree that we like to hear about poster's personal experiences, but when Matt does that, the judgmental majority dump on him. Hardly an encouragment to others to put their feelings and experiences on line.

I think ...
[X] He shares HIS THOUGHTS and HIS ACTIONS.

[X] The next poster criticizes him and shares HIS THOUGHTS. And some of HIS CAREFULLY SELECTED ACTIONS.

[X] The recipe for a popular thread? "It inkh tath 2 + 2 = 5.333336".

http://isiria.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/sperm.jpg
The DNA of sperm makes technical discussions possible.

Matt, grammar books and Xanax do come cheap in 2010. "They" = "things" "were born" = "started as".
I'll rephrase it for you: if you start a relationship by using money to buy a guy's company, buy sex or however you want to put it, I BELIEVE things should stay that way. Always.
I made it very clear that I do not approve your semi-semi manners in the post about that guy's bike. You have to be a lover, or a father or a pimp. Not a mix of these.





Things should be kept professional if that's the way they were born.
"the way they were born"? Huh? What does that mean? I know, those Issan Thais are worst than niggers, I tell ya! Really, it's 2010 already.

And you must have missed GENERALLY SPEAKING.
But I guess some of the guys here just don't like to see the truth, pass by the bars, who's sittin outside with guys who could be their children to say the very least?
I ain't seen any women, and trust me, until the day I will have a bit of air in my lungs I will always say what I think. Whether you like it or not, I don't quite frankly give a flying.


Why? Because generally speaking men are dumb and shallow.

Geez, you sure like your sterotyping. Yes, I'm shallow and dumb, and so is every other male I know. And you're right, women never get manipulated, or emotionally & mentally abused, because they're just so intelligent. Do you really voice these opinions to your friends in public? I'd expect a black eye if I ever talked like that.

And you must have missed GENERALLY SPEAKING. And exclusively referring to these cross-cultural and cross-generational relationships.
But I guess some of the guys here just don't like to see the truth, pass by the bars, who's sittin outside with guys who could be their children to say the very least?
I ain't seen any women, and trust me, until the day I will have a bit of air in my lungs I will always say what I think. Whether you like it or not, I don't quite frankly give a flying.
You're a bit of a Diva aren't ya!

[Beachlover]

He's only in his late twenties you know...

I agree about the thing with farang who are 20-30-40 years older and expect true love.

[Brad the Impala]

I agree about the thing with farang who are 20-30-40 years older and expect true love.

No one of any age or age difference should "expect" true love!

I don't know Matt well enough and even less his relationship to judge or suggest what he should and should not do (counting out the bike episode which was more meant like "I wouldn't do...") that is why I specified.... if a relationship starts out as a "money relationship".... if his didn't start out like that I don't think that he shouldn't expect nor believe in true love... there are many cross cultural relationships that work fine..

I really don't have too much experience with Thais that's for sure but if I take the Arab example.. in relation to THE kind of Arabs I like.. I'd be a freakin fool to believe one of those guys would actually love me "for real".. they look for jobs, visas, money - regardless of the fact I'm youngish and decent looking...

I was somehow lucky to be born cynical or emotionally detached if you will. Because it's handy when you like a certain type of flings. I don't live my life thinking I'm Richard Gere and one of the boys I pick up is Julia Roberts. That's a movie, I live in the real world.


He's only in his late twenties you know...

I agree about the thing with farang who are 20-30-40 years older and expect true love.

[Beachlover]

I agree about the thing with farang who are 20-30-40 years older and expect true love.

No one of any age or age difference should "expect" true love!

True true

[bao-bao]

Regarding interpersonal relationships, Matt - you might consider editing the "N"-word racial slur from your post above. {done for him and sorry I did not see it first time around - jinks}


It speaks volumes about a poster in just six letters and I personally find it objectionable, unless you are a member of that race yourself - and even then it's distasteful.

Sorry to interrupt the diatribe. Carry on.

[chillnorth]

I didn't actually pay attention to the dates of the original posts until well into (and interested) in them. I'll have to check the archives, as well.

Particularly the "three year threshold" seems to apply, maybe by some strange social custom. In my own long-term relationship we agreed on three years to "build confidence" by which time we were established and things subtly evolved thereafter. As my other posts have indicated, Western concepts of fidelity are not what I'm looking for or seeking to import to Thailand. We've managed a dozen years since passing the threshold and have a couple of homes, one in his name and one not. I know a few other couples who've been together much longer. We all seem to have in common the notion of the occasional gigk here and there, discreet and acceptable on both sides, keeping the physical side of life interesting while the emotional part gets stronger. I am of a vintage pretty much in-between Matt and some of the more venerable members of this board. I would like to think I wasn't that sort of asshole even at his age, though.

I do think the sort of relationship I've had is rare and I don't have any psycho-babble to explain it. We didn't meet in a bar but we both like them, just different styles. We both have jobs and naturally mine pays better because I'm not Thai. I've never been given the "buffalo is not well" story, and he takes care of family obligations out of his salary, not mine. When it was time to burn Mama I chipped in as any decent sort would. I've met the family and am considered part of the scene, but don't spend time with them, and the one sister I truly liked has gone on. In fifteen years (knock on wood) I've never found a satang missing and there have been many shared at will. Once on an emergency basis I handed over my wallet, passport, fairly expensive personal ornaments, and everything essential to go through a brain scan (no jokes, it wasn't funny at all at the time, nor did it end up a serious problem) with full "confidence" that he would be waiting for me when it was finished instead of cashing it all in and living for a couple of years on the take while wishing the farang a good next life. On another occasion I was the one in the waiting room and the recovery room with no thought of being anywhere else. So love relationships do work and can but in most cases they don't for reasons most other posters have very reasonably described. If I didn't have money to feed the kitty we wouldn't have the lifestyle that makes me comfortable and handles emergencies. I don't need to entertain any illusions that either of us would have made it on love and somtam alone. For every happy long-term couple I've met there have been five solo farang who can tell a sincere story of being Mr. Right until the house was built or the pick-up purchased or the ATM ran dry.

So in two years and one month, Matt, it'll be interesting to hear a progress report if you're still crowing. I'm happy you have a puppy because unconditional positive regard and obedience training do seem to be part of your regimen. I'm pleased for Kim because he's had a better life for almost a year and with some sort of personality transplant on your part maybe a while longer. You did say you paid cash for the house and put the papers in his name, didn't you? Your story was interesting and I was one of your fans until it came to the part where you wrung your hands worldwide at 4 am and didn't have the balls to report how it all came out. I'm sure your opinion, which is so highly valued you actually are paid for it unlike anyone else who reads your posts, will be that you didn't and don't owe anyone the rest of the story. That is absolutely true. But you do leave yourself open to conjecture when you report calling hospitals and then don't own up to the denoument. I suspect when he finally showed up again after having a good time with you agonizing to your wit's end you kissed and licked anything necessary to show how sorry you were so you could wake up the next morning/afternoon to preach on this forum about how wise you are after practically a year and and how relationships in Asia are just the same as those in North America or Europe if you happen to be a control freak of a higher order.

My apologies to the mods and to my British friends who find the term "asshole" incorrectly spelled. You will, well within your rights, remove this if it falls outside the bounds of decency or TOS. For me, temporarily, it's back to RQD, where at least the pictures are real.

[bao-bao]

A thoughtful and logical post, chillnorth.

Every relationship is unique to some extent, but once we get past cultural quirks they're much the same: they grow stronger and last much more frequently with a willingness to make things work and - most importantly - communication.

[francois]

Matt, Just what is it that makes you such an expert on Thai-Farang relationships?



Couldn't have put it better. Agreed completely. This forum goes through phases, and at this point the number of interesting posters here is in a very small minority. I would count yourself and Matt in that minority. Most people here agree that we like to hear about poster's personal experiences, but when Matt does that, the judgmental majority dump on him. Hardly an encouragment to others to put their feelings and experiences on line.

From what I read of Matt's earlier post it was he who was being judgmental of the "majority" of farangs regarding relationships between Thai and Farang. Few of the farang I know fit his description. I wonder how he formulated his opinion? Based on a survey, a poll, or his years of experience in Thailand?

As far as the "very small minority" of interesting posters such as Matt, BL and maybe you Brad, I think there are a number of other forum members who are also interesting or am I being too judgmental about that also?

[cdnmatt]

So in two years and one month, Matt, it'll be interesting to hear a progress report if you're still crowing.

Deal!


For every happy long-term couple I've met there have been five solo farang who can tell a sincere story of being Mr. Right until the house was built or the pick-up purchased or the ATM ran dry.

Actually, I don't have a problem admitting this one anymore, because I'm starting to make good money again now. But yeah, we've been piss poor together. I sold my company back in 2005, and have just been a contractor since then, while working on my own (very large) project. So until just now, I haven't had my own operations for almost five years. A year ago when I first met Kim, my clients were flush with money, which meant I was too. That work simply dried up though, as it sometimes does, and I didn't have my own operations going yet, so we were dirt poor for a good six months.

We've been through the change jar together a few times, seeing if we could afford a couple more days rent and some food. One time we even borrowed money from Kim's mama. So if he's just in this relationship for money, he's not doing a very good job. It's no worries now, because I've been through the gauntlet before, and know what I'm capable of. Hopefully my 9 years of experience will let me setup something that's sustainable though, which doesn't leave me stressed out to the point of collapse. Although it sucks being poor & struggling, looking back I'm actually glad we went through it together. Without that, I don't think our relationship would be anywhere near as strong as it currently is.


I'm pleased for Kim because he's had a better life for almost a year and with some sort of personality transplant on your part maybe a while longer.

You have to remember, this is an online message forum. Generally, when you meet people from online, they're completely different than what you were expecting. Don't worry, I'm actually a pretty good guy.


You did say you paid cash for the house and put the papers in his name, didn't you?

No, we rent the house, and the lease & all utilities are actually in a farang friend's name. They wanted to move into a bigger house down the street, so we took over this one. Worked perfectly for everyone! Then the only other thing is a motorbike under a lease-to-own deal that costs 1800/month, and that's under Kims' mom's name.


Your story was interesting and I was one of your fans until it came to the part where you wrung your hands worldwide at 4 am and didn't have the balls to report how it all came out.

Sorry, my apologies. Things got pretty shitty for about a week there though. If you want to know though, it's just I didn't know the Issan concert was out of town, and thought it was in the city. The friend who was driving ended up drunk, so the cops took the keys away for a few hours while he sobered up. Then it was out of town, so no cell signal, hence why his phone was off. I have no reason not to believe him. Kim showed up at about 6am.

That, and after a while you simply get sick & tired of constantly being on the defensive for absolutely no reason, and just say "fuck everyone, up to them".


I suspect when he finally showed up again after having a good time with you agonizing to your wit's end you kissed and licked anything necessary to show how sorry

No, I was pissed off to no end, and now he's excellent about it. It's just one of the many growing pains that relationships go through. Nowadays though, he'll make sure to give me a call somehow if he's staying out later than he planned, which is great, and all I ask for. If you say you'll be back around 9pm, and end up deciding to stay out until 2am, by all means, go for it. I could care less. But I would like a phone call, just so I know you're ok, and not lying in a ditch after a motorcycle accident. I see that as loving, not controlling, but up to you.

Same type of growing pain as for example, me getting accustomed to the villages. At first I was really nervous, uncomfortable, and simply didn't enjoy myself. That caused another one of many hurdles, because that's Kim's stomping ground. Nowadays though, I'm more than comfortable in the villages, and enjoy myself there. And Kim absolutely loves that fact now, because he knows we can go hang out in the village for a day anytime now, without having to worry about me.

[allieb]

I was somehow lucky to be born cynical or emotionally detached if you will. Because it's handy when you like a certain type of flings. I don't live my life thinking I'm Richard Gere and one of the boys I pick up is Julia Roberts. That's a movie, I live in the real world

Total newbie

In Thailand it's More like Richard Gere's father and their pick up is one of Julia Robberts 18 year old kids

[Beachlover]

One time we even borrowed money from Kim's mama.

I can't help but thinking "loser," but I wont say it out loud.

Your whole story stinks in high heaven. You seem to be in dire need of this forums approval of your " real love." The prove that you give us (lending money from his mama) tells a lot about you. No friends? no family?

Good luck with that!

That's a quick judgement. I seem to remember he has family in KL, Malaysia.

He probably makes more than most people on this forum who actually live in Thailand... but like many business owners you go through periods of low liquidity/cash-flow.

But geez... sounds like you were sailing close to the wind, Matt. Once you've got a good operation going, the thing to do is accumulate so if it goes to sh*t one day you're still sitting on a mound of cash and assets and not stressing about money while you transition.

I think one thing that gets to some members is you hooked up with a bar boy... where as a guy like you... still reasonably young, not bad looking, financially independent could perhaps have ended up with a more educated Thai boy from a more stable background. But maybe you don't plan these things...

[cdnmatt]

The prove that you give us (lending money from his mama) tells a lot about you. No friends? no family?

Yes, I do have friends and family, jackass. Kim's the one who insisted, not me. We've helped out the family before, and I'm now part of the family, so he thought it was only right they helped us when we needed it. He would have been quite hurt if I didn't allow him to borrow money from his mom, and would taken it as I don't view myself as part of his family, which is what he wants. Believe it or not, but Thai Issan folk can see past skin color and nationality too.

And learn how to spell. It's "proof", not "prove".

[Thai Dyed]

...and I'm now part of the family...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah I just can't stop laughing !!! hahahahhahahahahahahahah
[attachment=0:17t3bfzr]I cant stop laughing.jpg[/attachment:17t3bfzr]

[Thai Dyed]

...the thing to do is accumulate so if it goes to sh*t one day you're still sitting on a mound of cash...

Take Beachlover's advice Matt and sit on this:
[attachment=0:212qk5eu]Mound of cash.jpg[/attachment:212qk5eu]
I'm going to die laughing right on the spot if I hear any more of these pearls of wisdom!

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_01/whimpDM0507_468x742.jpg
POSTERS francois et alii versus our BLOGGER from the centre of nowhere.

The book which you are reading aloud is mine, Fidentinus but,
while you read it so badly, it begins to be yours.

With fruity accents, and so vile a tone
You quote my lines, I took them for your own.

Having followed this thread from the start, including Cdnmatt's Hiatus, I can finally laugh at some of the "responses" to his posts. I genuinely could not understand the bitterness and spitefulness directed towards him. It seems a genuine post from a falang who happens to be in love with his boyfriend..who happens to be Thai.
I fail to see anything offensive or derogatory in any of his posts on this topic, on the contrary, he has chosen to share aspects of his personal life with us....no headline issues... just what could be described as normal BUT personal events in their lives in the sticks..ok KK! That in itself should have accounted for some kudos i.e. to submit personal details on this forum...especially considering the riff raff that drop in or hang around here!
It eventually dawned on me; most of the negative posters here are simply..JEALOUS....all CNDmatt's problems are so "normal" that it highlights the vacuum in the other's lives and the lost opertunities.Seessh some of you guys are beyond pathetic!

[Koh Samui Luv]

...he has chosen to share aspects of his personal life with us....no headline issues...
It eventually dawned on me; most of the negative posters here are simply..JEALOUS....

Oh Zebedee you are so clever! We, the riff-raff on this board, are sooooooooo JEALOUS of Matt! What a smart bugger you are to see through it all!!! Most of all, we, the JEALOUS riff-raff are green with envy over never having had to flee Pattaya because of death threats and run away to "the sticks, ok KK!"

We will be forever deprived of all these "normal problems" as you call them, and sulk over our rotten fate in life!

[Brad the Impala]

Life in the cocoon is so much safer, but what some of those in the cocoon of their own emotional straight jacket can't bear, is when someone breaks out and finds a deeper happiness than seems to be found by the fuck 'em and forget 'em crowd. Jealous is certainly one way to describe it.

[danny99]

Fortunately I do not live in Thailand but visit very regularly. I met my Surin boy 8 years ago when he was working in a juice bar in a building on Silom, very shy of the gay scene but very horny as most Isan boys are. Now 26 or so he always meets up with me when I come to Bangkok, every night after his work [now progressed to very good job in bank] and during the day when he has a holiday. He has only had 'money problems' 4 times in the 8 years when a small urgent transfer was necessary but of course I help him a bit whilst in Bangkok.

He has matured from the little shy boy I first met but still keeps away from the gay scene apart from weekend visits to DJ or discos on Ratchada. A nice boy and a nice relationship, very loyal but then relationships have to be mutual to work.

[Thai Dyed]

Life in the cocoon is so much safer, but what some of those in the cocoon of their own emotional straight jacket can't bear, is when someone breaks out and finds a deeper happiness than seems to be found by the fuck 'em and forget 'em crowd. Jealous is certainly one way to describe it.

And who are you to tell anyone else that the "fuck 'em and forget 'em" approach isn't in fact a "deeper happiness"? I think that the exact opposite of what you say is true, and I consider your premise to be not only severely flawed but also as irrelevant as it is subjective.

And who but a nutcase could possibly be jealous of extortion attempts, death threats and drunken boy friends running around on motocys?

[Brad the Impala]

[quote="Brad the Impala":33onrcjm]Life in the cocoon is so much safer, but what some of those in the cocoon of their own emotional straight jacket can't bear, is when someone breaks out and finds a deeper happiness than seems to be found by the fuck 'em and forget 'em crowd. Jealous is certainly one way to describe it.

And who are you to tell anyone else that the "fuck 'em and forget 'em" approach isn't in fact a "deeper happiness"? I think that the exact opposite of what you say is true, and I consider your premise to be not only severely flawed but also as irrelevant as it is subjective.
[/quote:33onrcjm]

I am just another poster with an opinion, and like you I feel free to express it. Don't take it personally unless it is applicable. Some people find contentment or security more appealing than happiness, but no one should assume that they have a copyright on the way to live life, especially in cellulite city!

The mistake is assuming that if it's not done your way it's either wrong or leads to unhappiness. You can only talk about the effects it would have on you not everyone else.
I'm much happier being free to do what and who i like when i feel like it.. having the same person by my side does not only make me unhappy and constrained but it bores me out of my mind..



[quote="Thai Dyed":2whoitt0][quote="Brad the Impala":2whoitt0]Life in the cocoon is so much safer, but what some of those in the cocoon of their own emotional straight jacket can't bear, is when someone breaks out and finds a deeper happiness than seems to be found by the fuck 'em and forget 'em crowd. Jealous is certainly one way to describe it.

And who are you to tell anyone else that the "fuck 'em and forget 'em" approach isn't in fact a "deeper happiness"? I think that the exact opposite of what you say is true, and I consider your premise to be not only severely flawed but also as irrelevant as it is subjective.
[/quote:2whoitt0]

I am just another poster with an opinion, and like you I feel free to express it. Don't take it personally unless it is applicable. Some people find contentment or security more appealing than happiness, but no one should assume that they have a copyright on the way to live life, especially in cellulite city![/quote:2whoitt0]

тАЬWe are more interested in making others believe we are happy than in trying to be happy ourselves.тАЭ

http://www.energyfiend.com/wp-content/ghost.jpg

тАЬIt is with true love as it is with ghosts; everyone talks about it, but few have seen itтАЭ

[DamienZ]

Matt..
I had no idea you were a racist!
To each his own I guess. Too bad... :sad3:
I do wish you and your partner all the best though. IMHO, everyone is entitled to happiness. How fortunate you are to have found someone to trudge on with!
Best of luck to you both!

DZ

[giggsy]

http://www.energyfiend.com/wp-content/ghost.jpg

тАЬIt is with true love as it is with ghosts; everyone talks about it, but few have seen itтАЭ


Last night I drempt I had sex with a ghost.. Now I think I might have a phantom pregnancy ! Is this possible ?

Now I think I might have a phantom pregnancy ! Is this possible ?
"The hallmark sign of pseudocyesis that is common to all cases is that the affected patient is convinced that she is pregnant."

[X] Sadly, no. If YOU THINK that your pregnancy is a FALSE pregnancy you are NOT convinced that you are pregnant.

[cdnmatt]

Matt..
I had no idea you were a racist!
To each his own I guess. Too bad...

Oh geez, yes, yes, I'm a racist. That's why I used to be married to a Hungarian, and have spent the past year of my life in a relationship with a Thai guy. It's actually just a ploy. My overall plan is to later on indoctrinate all of you into the KKK. Hell, I used to live in both, Toronto & Vancouver. I don't think it's possible to be racist in either of those cities, unless you want to live like a hermit.

Actually, thinking about it, my apologies for using the 'N' word. I sometimes forget it's still a sensitive word in some regions of the world, where racism still exists.

[DamienZ]

OK..
at least now I know what your true intentions are! I will be sure to notify the ACLU of your plans!
BTW is there any sex involved in this said conversion?
:glasses7:
DZ

I could never be racist.. I love dark cock too much :headbang:

Oh geez, yes, yes, I'm a racist. That's why I used to be married to a Hungarian, and have spent the past year of my life in a relationship with a Thai guy.

The implication was not that you might be prejudiced against Thais or Hungarians...

[cdnmatt]

Oh geez, yes, yes, I'm a racist. That's why I used to be married to a Hungarian, and have spent the past year of my life in a relationship with a Thai guy.

The implication was not that you might be prejudiced against Thais or Hungarians...

Oh geez, I'm not racist. I'm some guy raised in a small town in NW Canada, which is probably one of the least religious and racist regions on this earth. I actually didn't even know racism still existed until just after I turned 16, when I moved to a sub-burb of Houston, TX. Until then, I just assumed it was stuff that happened back in the 1930s. Once I got to Katy though, I realized is was still alive & rampant.

[Beachlover]

...and I'm now part of the family...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah I just can't stop laughing !!! hahahahhahahahahahahahah
[attachment=0:dmq8zb7h]I cant stop laughing.jpg[/attachment:dmq8zb7h]

Why? Because it could never happen to a bitter old man like you? I would see it as a hilarious joke too if it was YOU saying that.

[Beachlover]

Fortunately I do not live in Thailand but visit very regularly. I met my Surin boy 8 years ago when he was working in a juice bar in a building on Silom, very shy of the gay scene but very horny as most Isan boys are. Now 26 or so he always meets up with me when I come to Bangkok, every night after his work [now progressed to very good job in bank] and during the day when he has a holiday. He has only had 'money problems' 4 times in the 8 years when a small urgent transfer was necessary but of course I help him a bit whilst in Bangkok.

He has matured from the little shy boy I first met but still keeps away from the gay scene apart from weekend visits to DJ or discos on Ratchada. A nice boy and a nice relationship, very loyal but then relationships have to be mutual to work.

That's a great story.

Yep... Isaan boys can be pretty horny alright.

[Beachlover]

Having followed this thread from the start, including Cdnmatt's Hiatus, I can finally laugh at some of the "responses" to his posts. I genuinely could not understand the bitterness and spitefulness directed towards him. It seems a genuine post from a falang who happens to be in love with his boyfriend..who happens to be Thai.
I fail to see anything offensive or derogatory in any of his posts on this topic, on the contrary, he has chosen to share aspects of his personal life with us....no headline issues... just what could be described as normal BUT personal events in their lives in the sticks..ok KK! That in itself should have accounted for some kudos i.e. to submit personal details on this forum...especially considering the riff raff that drop in or hang around here!
It eventually dawned on me; most of the negative posters here are simply..JEALOUS....all CNDmatt's problems are so "normal" that it highlights the vacuum in the other's lives and the lost opertunities.Seessh some of you guys are beyond pathetic!

Totally agree with you.

Whether real or part-real Matt sounds like he's pretty happy in his relationship with Kim and his family. Even if it's only 50% or 75% of the way there, it's a hell of a lot further than most members who are posting abusive responses would ever get themselves.

He sounds like a decent guy (i.e. he would not intentionally be a dickhead to someone) which is probably one of the most important things to being able to have a happy relationship and something, which a lot of posters here lack (i.e. this rules them out of ever having a real relationship).

And yeah, I respect him for sharing these aspects of his personal life with us. He's obviously still working it all out but he's doing it a lot better than most members here would. And even if he is a bit naive or wrong on some things, there's no need for such blatent insults and abuse. Would you say these things to his face?

[Beachlover]

It eventually dawned on me; most of the negative posters here are simply..JEALOUS....all CNDmatt's problems are so "normal" that it highlights the vacuum in the other's lives and the lost opertunities.Seessh some of you guys are beyond pathetic!

Hahaha, guess again.

I snuffed that guy out by reading only a few of his posts.


Thais are worse than niggers

or


Other than small 100 baht tips here and there, I actually haven't paid a prostitute anything for probably 8 months now. And no, I don't consider Kim a prostitute.

He was his secretary for that 30.000 baht a month - not a prostitute.


His pi├иce de r├йsistance must have been:

gay-thailand-f9/how-you-deal-with-extortionists-t19175.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand-f9/how-you-deal-with-extortionists-t19175.html)


This guy will say anything to PROOF his point.

What a delusional tool.

No one's perfect. You're picking out and isolating the bits and pieces that sound worst by themselves from the hundreds of posts, good stories and reports he's posted over the last few months.

He's not racist. Made a dumb joke maybe. But not racist

[Beachlover]

Life in the cocoon is so much safer, but what some of those in the cocoon of their own emotional straight jacket can't bear, is when someone breaks out and finds a deeper happiness than seems to be found by the fuck 'em and forget 'em crowd. Jealous is certainly one way to describe it.

I agree... If someone's in that "fuck and forget" crowd and really believes that makes them happy then good for them. But why vehemently abuse others who don't feel the same?

Perhaps some of the more abusive promoters of this just aren't capable of having a decent relationship. I mean really, who would truly want to be with the likes of TD? Can you imagine the paranoid, delusional, emotionally unintelligent, 'quick to bite your head off' kind personality you'd have to put up with? I imagine he's the kind of person you have chat to and then run a mile (or at least to the other side of the bar).

I'm only in my 20s and even I can see the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of continually wanting to hook one night stands. It's good to get it out of your system but after a few years, it gets pretty boring doing it night after night.

Now I kind of prefer to get to know guys a bit better before really doing much with them. This doesn't mean I would rule out one night stands completely - but more so than before.

So I'm trying to work out how guys who are in their 40s or 50s or 60s are still satisfied with this flippant 'fuck em and forget em' thing. If you only have sex once a year when you go to Thailand, fair enough. But on the whole, doesn't that get terribly boring and unsatisfying? Doesn't the one night stand thing get boring once you've gotten it out of your system?

[Beachlover]

Right... so they are just f*cked up... makes complete sense then LOL.

[Geezer]

You may have read the notice that Playboy Magazine is going to begin publishing a new edition for married men.

It will have the same centerfold every month.

No one knows what it stands for, but everyone knows what it stands for. According to the K-Y Web site, the initials "K-Y" -- trademarked in 1906 -- are a mystery even to the company that makes this bestselling line of "personal lubricants." Yet K-Y Jelly has become winkingly -- and not always invitingly -- synonymous with sex: sex requiring medical assistance, sex not endorsed by Sen. Rick Santorum. Despite its venerable, doctor-approved reputation, the frumpy aunt of all sex lubes still carries a high snicker factor.

http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2003/05/01/k_y/story.gif


About the topic: I'm happy and i don't want a relationship, which would be extra difficult with a Thai guy or any other race that has a culture so much different then mine. I see it happening all around here in Vietnam. straight and gay relationships alike, it's a big struggle.

It's all about needs...i don't need to wake up with the same boy every morning. in fact, I would consider that to be a punishment. You might be happy because you can share your life with someone, i would be unhappy because I would have to share my life with someone.

I loved the hunt when I was in my teens. Now, in my thirties, I still live for it. I could not imagine giving this up for a relationship.
Alfred C. Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (1953), p. 409:

Most males can immediately understand why most males want extra-marital coitus. Although many of them refrain from engaging in such activity because they consider it morally unacceptable or socially undesirable, even such abstinent individuals can usually understand that sexual variety, new situations and new partners might provide satisfactions which are no longer found in coitus which has been confined for some period of years to a single sexual partner. To most males the desire for variety, new situations, and new partners might provide satisfactions which are no longer found in coitus which has been confined for some period of years to a single sexual partner. To most males the desire for variety in sexual activity seems as reasonable as the desire for variety in the books that one reads, the music that one hears, the recreation in which one engages, and the friends with whom one associates socially. On the other hand, many females find it difficult to understand why any male who is happily married should want to have coitus with any female other than his wife. The fact that there are females who ask such questions seems, to most males, the best sort of evidence that there are basic differences between the two sexes.

Alfred C. Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948), p. 607:

Hundreds of males have insisted that intercourse with a prostitute is cheaper than intercourse with any other girl. The cost of dating a girl, especially at the upper social level, may mount considerably through the weeks and months, or even years, that it may take to arrive at the first intercourse. There are flowers, candy, "coke dates," dinner engagement parties, evening entertainments, moving pictures, theatres, night clubs, dances, picnics, week-end house parties, car rides, longer trips, and all sorts of other expensive entertainment to be paid for, and gifts to be made to the girl on her birthday, at Christmas, and on innumerable other special occasions. Finally, after all this the girl may break off the whole affair as soon as she realizes that the male is interested in intercourse. Before the recent war the average cost of a sexual relation with a prostitute was one to five dollars. This was less than the cost of a single supper date with a girl who was not a prostitute; and even at the inflated prices of prostitution which prevailed during the war, the cost did not amount to more than many a soldier or sailor was obliged to spend on another girl from whom he might not be able to obtain the intercourse which he wanted.

Men go to prostitutes because they can pay for the sexual relations and forget other responsibilities, whereas coitus with other girls may involve them socially and legally beyond anything which they care to undertake.

Men go to prostitutes to obtain types of sexual activity which they are unable to obtain easily elsewhere.

[Smiles]

Stop! Stop! Please please STOP! :laughing3:

[Beachlover]

About the topic: I'm happy and i don't want a relationship, which would be extra difficult with a Thai guy or any other race that has a culture so much different then mine. I see it happening all around here in Vietnam. straight and gay relationships alike, it's a big struggle.

It's all about needs...i don't need to wake up with the same boy every morning. in fact, I would consider that to be a punishment. You might be happy because you can share your life with someone, i would be unhappy because I would have to share my life with someone.

I loved the hunt when I was in my teens. Now, in my thirties, I still live for it. I could not imagine giving this up for a relationship.

Fair enough... would it be different if a relationship with a Thai guy were easier? i.e. there were all the difficulties you mention like race/culture being so different?

[cdnmatt]

Another note I'll add about Thai relationships. Alot of farangs seem to be under the impression that since they're capable of providing a better life for a Thai than the Thai could ever imagine, they'll simply and easily pickup a boyfriend.

It doesn't work like that. Expect a roller coaster, and expect to be tested to your limits. If you enter into a long-term relationship with a Thai, one way or another, you'll be in for the adventure of a lifetime.

[cdnmatt]

Hi Matt! Does Kim know or care that you share all these stories of your relationship with virtual strangers?

Kinda, not really. I've showed him the board before, and showed his name (Kim), which he can read, and have said I talk-talk farang. He doesn't give a shit though, and is oblivious to it. What I post on this board doesn't impact his life any, so why should he care?

[Beachlover]

All the mixed couples I know here have these problems that drive me crazy just listening to them. The difference between my friends in these mixed relations and myself is that they can accept things that are (in their eyes) just unreasonable and let it go, I can't.

That does say a lot about me but I'm definitely OK with that.

Some people actually enjoy that about their relationship... exploring the difference in culture etc... it's definitely not for everyone though.

[cdnmatt]

Sounds like a budding genius. When is he going to move up to sounding out words with more than three letters in them? And does it make it easier for him to understand you when you repeat verbs ("I talk-talk farang") like a parrot?

I don't know, I more than likely told him in Thai, not English.

This is Issan, not Bangkok. What's the point of him learning English? So he can get that prestigious job as a McDonalds cashier? Oxford is a bit out of his reach, so we're not exactly worried about that.

[Beachlover]

He's not learning English? Is he going to school or doing anything other than a 100 baht/day job at all?

Being with you is a fantastic opportunity for him to get ahead. It's a real shame if he doesn't take advantage of it and does nothing...

[cdnmatt]

He's not learning English? Is he going to school or doing anything other than a 100 baht/day job at all?

Being with you is a fantastic opportunity for him to get ahead. It's a real shame if he doesn't take advantage of it and does nothing...

He doesn't want to do anything. Welcome to Issan. He knows he can goto school if he wants, but I can't make him have ambition to get an education. If he doesn't want to learn, no point in pushing him into school.

I heeded the advice of a good farang friend though, and he does work now. It's only 100 baht/day + plus commission on shirts he sells, but good enough. He works about 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. Good enough for me! He's not allowed to get lazy, or take his new-found life for granted, and we're not allowed to spend 24x7 together, because that's never good for anyone.

[cdnmatt]

Sorry, but personally I cannot fathom falling "in love" with someone who has no desire to learn anything, and no aspirations to do anything or make anything of himself.

Well, nobody said you had to. What's your point?

[Beachlover]

He doesn't want to do anything. Welcome to Issan. He knows he can goto school if he wants, but I can't make him have ambition to get an education. If he doesn't want to learn, no point in pushing him into school.

I heeded the advice of a good farang friend though, and he does work now. It's only 100 baht/day + plus commission on shirts he sells, but good enough. He works about 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. Good enough for me! He's not allowed to get lazy, or take his new-found life for granted, and we're not allowed to spend 24x7 together, because that's never good for anyone.

Selling shirts must be the easiest job in the world. It's a total low-effort existence... probably the closest you can get to not doing anything at all. Not good for a young healthy guy.

I respect the decision of someone who doesn't want to do anything to further themselves in life.

But with this kind of story being so common, you start to wonder if there is any merit to one of the the red shirts' grievances - the gap between the rich and poor.

Does this gap exist because they are TRULY so disadvantaged that they have no chance at all of working their way out of relative poverty? Or because certain people are simply lazy and prefer to be complacent and just enjoy life rather than work for a better one?

[cdnmatt]

Does this gap exist because they are TRULY so disadvantaged that they have no chance at all of working their way out of relative poverty? Or because certain people are simply lazy and prefer to be complacent and just enjoy life rather than work for a better one?

They're just lazy, complacent, stupid, and drunks. Well, from my experience at least. From my experiences at least, the red-shirts' are full of shit, and don't have much of a right to complain. There's loads of people out in the villages who have decided to work hard, have busted their asses all their lives, and are now living a great life. Nice home, nice car, good family, and so on.

I know people who have worked in good jobs in Canada and Europe before, and are living in the village now, because that's there home. No worries, there's opportunity abound in Issan if anyone wants to pursue it, and a decent amount of government programs in place to help them. Most people don't give a shit though, and are far more concerned about the village's sound system for karaoke nights.


Selling shirts must be the easiest job in the world... a total low-effort existence... Not good for a young guy.

True, but that's ok, and for now it's good for him. Think of it this way. I'm busy & a little stressed at the moment, and in a month from now will be extremely busy & stressed. Money makes people stupid. Why do you think I love having someone like Kim in my life? After my day of work, I can easily relax, go eat some Thai BBQ, have a couple beers, and totally forget about all the work bullshit.

[cdnmatt]

Sounds like Kim is more of a pet than anything else. Not a good equation for a lasting relationship, unless you're intellectually as dull as he is.

Good thing you don't live my life then, eh?

Quit bitching...

[Beachlover]

Selling shirts must be the easiest job in the world... a total low-effort existence... Not good for a young guy.

True, but that's ok, and for now it's good for him. Think of it this way. I'm busy & a little stressed at the moment, and in a month from now will be extremely busy & stressed. Money makes people stupid. Why do you think I love having someone like Kim in my life? After my day of work, I can easily relax, go eat some Thai BBQ, have a couple beers, and totally forget about all the work bullshit.

So it's just not something you want to deal with right now until work is more under control...

But I hope for your sake that the selling shirts thing is just a stepping stone for Kim or for your efforts to motivate him onto greater things. Don't let too much time slip by...

[cdnmatt]

So it's just not something you want to deal with right now until work is more under control...

But I hope for your sake that the selling shirts thing is just a stepping stone for Kim or for your efforts to motivate him onto greater things. Don't let too much time slip by...

Yeah, just a temporary situation, but in all honesty, I'm perfectly happy with things as they are. I've been through this life enough, and have met more than enough people, to know I have a good thing going right now. You know, I have Kim, really nice house, excellent neighborhood, great weather 365 days a year, a couple good farang friends down the street, good work. What the hell, things are good. Can't complain.

As for the future, who knows. Experiencing the unknown is what makes life worth living. As for Kim, you can't tell somebody to have ambition, so I'm not really sure. Best I can think of is later on, we travel around the world a bit, and maybe that'll kick things in for him.

Traveling's not going to happen for a bit though, as Kim's too young to sign for his own passport, and there's zero chance papa will sign for him. Papa's a fucken idiot. He doesn't like gay people, and doesn't like farangs, so I'm sure inside he's absolutely livid Kim is in a relationship with a gay farang. Of course though, he has no problem coming over to my house, drinking my beer, and eating my food with a smile on his face. I'm quite certain he hates my guts though. This is a Thai ex-military tough guy, turned drunken loser, has "KAMANDO" tattooed on his arm, and his most treasured possession is his old photos with him in uniform. I was debating whether or not to tell him it's actually spelt "commando", but decided it's not worth it.

Traveling's not going to happen for a bit though, as Kim's too young to sign for his own passport.

How old does a Thai have to be now to sign for himself passport wise, is it 21 or 25?

Was there a thread last year about helping Thai boys become self-sufficient? It's not the easiest thing in the world to accomplish, but shouldn't some thought be given to a young bf's future after the farang has departed either this life or departed Thailand?

[cdnmatt]

You don't have higher aspirations for him than being an Isaan dirt famer all his life? If you really loved him for more than his cock and anus, you would be helping him to try to better himself.

What a shame.

Well, what do you want me to do? Teach him ambition? You can't, it's impossible. Or you want me to be like other farangs I know, who control (and even hit) their Thai tilaks? I'll never do that to Kim. I'll go back to Canada before I ever control him. I can help guide him, sure, because I know he wants it, but I'll never try to control him.

Again, best thing I can think of is travel the world a bit, and let him experience life outside of Thailand a bit. That'll be a while though, and for now, we're good.

The thought of living with someone already stresses me out, but living with someone who doesn't speak any of the same languages that i can speak...O my god. OK, you can make yourself understandable, but especially in love, doesn't it often evolve around subtleties? So if you can't speak with a person..what do you love?
[X] Elaborate verbal communication is less important than you think. Simply try it out. It works.


Well, what do you want me to do? Teach him ambition? You can't, it's impossible.
[X] It's really laudable that you don't even try to adapt a Thai farm boy to North American middle class values.

[cdnmatt]

Good thing you don't live my life then, eh?



Is that what you call it?

I bet it's far better, more fulfilling, and more interesting than your current life...

[sydneyboy]

"To have a successful marriage is to be incompatible, he has the income she is pattable"

(Ogden Nash)

In this context that says it all.

Traveling's not going to happen for a bit though, as Kim's too young to sign for his own passport.

How old does a Thai have to be now to sign for himself passport wise, is it 21 or 25?

20

Matt following your posts I should think you have been around most places in Thailand where retired falangs hang out and have formed your own opinion about such places and people, some good, some bad. Live your life where you are both most happy together and as you want. Travel abroad with Kim as soon as you can to open his eyes to the wider world which will enrich him, and if you get satisfaction by posting in here then so be it post as much as you like.

[Beachlover]

Traveling's not going to happen for a bit though, as Kim's too young to sign for his own passport.

How old does a Thai have to be now to sign for himself passport wise, is it 21 or 25?

20

Wow... that sucks. So before the age of 20, they have to get their parents to sign for one?

Wow... that sucks. So before the age of 20, they have to get their parents to sign for one?

yes..the parents have to give them the permission to leave the country. If they dont want show up at the passport office, they have to sign the doc and that has to be certified by Amphur/Khet too. (for kids over 15 but under 20)

[Beachlover]

I am inclined to tell you I never implied you should not use this board only that direct contact with with other gay falangs is an important part of living in Thailand...as important as Kim's friends are to him!


Well, I happen to disagree about the importance of gay farang friends. From what I can tell, all they do when they get together is get drunk and complain about Thais and Thailand. Quite often, an exceedingly sad and unhealthy bunch -- both physically and emotionally.

This is really generalising... But I think the main reason many farangs feel they must have contact with other farangs and have farang friends or will go mad is the Thais they hang out with tend to be Thais who might be simple and unsophisticated, poorly educated, not broad minded or lack intelligent perspectives...

Almost all money boys and gogo boys will fall under this category... Basically not the kind of person the farang can have an intelligent conversation with on topics they might chat about with a Westerner or anything very intellectual at all (as wanky as it sounds).

I suppose if you're older and want to be with a much younger Thai --albeit from a poor background--this is one of the sacrifices you make, if it matters to you.

[Beachlover]

Wow... that sucks. So before the age of 20, they have to get their parents to sign for one?

yes..the parents have to give them the permission to leave the country. If they dont want show up at the passport office, they have to sign the doc and that has to be certified by Amphur/Khet too. (for kids over 15 but under 20)

I see, thanks. I suppose in most Western Countries (or at least Australia) this age is 18, instead of 20.

[Smiles]

The number on the 'Ignore' list has now risen to 4. Diec was the only one for at least a year now (and I'd forgotten), but lately the Ridiculous & Useless Wanker list has grown by three more. Hardly a great era in Sawatdee's history right now.

Humble suggestion: any Member on Sawatdee who considers himself even somewhat 'reasonable' in any way (and you don't have to be perfect :blackeye: ) might give some thought to doing the same thing.
If you would like to copy and paste my list, be my guest: CastityBoi; Nowvoyager; Homesoon

[ceejay]

Just scanning throught his thread again, I caught this from a much earlier post from Dodger:

One critical component that seems to be very significant to the ThaiтАЩs, even more than in the west, is TIME. Remembering, that most Thai boys, regardless of they are working (actively) on the sex circuit, or not, view the actions of 95% of all farangs as being hollow in terms of any real long term aspirations, and the magic number seems to be somewhere around 3 years.
Interestingly, I've seen that 3 year figure 2 or 3 times in other places.
I don't buy the idea that Thai boys never think long term. I remember having a boy who worked at the Panorama explain that working in the bar was "good for him", but not "good for his life". So far as I could understand that, it seemed to mean good for the short term but not the long term.

[Beachlover]

I don't buy the idea that Thai boys never think long term.

I think Thai boys in general "think long-term" as much as any other boy around the world. It's just that most people form their opinion of "Thai boys" from having met gogo boys and money boys... hardly the demographic you'd expect to have stable, well-thought, long-term plans and aspirations.

[Beachlover]

(and you don't have to be perfect :blackeye: ) ]

You been drinking?

"I think Thai boys in general "think long-term" as much as any other boy around the world. It's just that most people form their opinion of "Thai boys" from having met gogo boys and money boys"

True, but isn't that the category we are talking about? There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on here involving non-working Thai guys.

[cdnmatt]

I see, thanks. I suppose in most Western Countries (or at least Australia) this age is 18, instead of 20.

In Canada, it's 16. Got the military conscription in Thailand though, hence why (I'm assuming) the 20yo barrier is in place.

[Dodger]

bobsaigon Wrote:


"I think Thai boys in general "think long-term" as much as any other boy around the world.

I tend to agree, although trying to figure out what exactly it is that they think about in general is a bit puzzling - to put it mildly.

Smiles: I agree, although don't bother with the ignor button - my ignor is on auto-pilot.

I see, thanks. I suppose in most Western Countries (or at least Australia) this age is 18, instead of 20.

In Canada, it's 16. Got the military conscription in Thailand though, hence why (I'm assuming) the 20yo barrier is in place.

You can vote when you are 18 in Thailand..thats a decision to choose someone to run the country but 18 is too young to enter the night club and you have to be 20 to do so. That doesnt make sense to me.

[Beachlover]

True, but isn't that the category we are talking about? There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on here involving non-working Thai guys.

There is but yes, it's in the minority.

I just think the impression you get of Thai boys reading these forums and other blogs is so misleading.

Perhaps the truth is, there are lots of boys in your own country who are as irrational, impulsive and non long-term thinking as the Thai money boys most farang visitors meet... except you probably don't associate with them when in your own country.

[Beachlover]

trying to figure out what exactly it is that they think about in general is a bit puzzling - to put it mildly.

I suppose the mystery's part of the charm...

Beachlover: Perhaps the truth is, there are lots of boys in your own country who are as irrational, impulsive and non long-term thinking as the Thai money boys most farang visitors meet... except you probably don't associate with them when in your own country.

Perfectly true! That's why we come to LOS....because dealing with money boys in our home countries just does not work for us.

I once taught students at a job training facility in Hawaii. Many were very attractive but almost all were "irrational, impulsive and non long-term thinking". Poor, not terribly intelligent, crappy family life, little educated... what else could they be but irrational, impulsive......

[X] The HIV prevalence rate can be used as an indicator for short/long-term thinking.

[X] Nowadays Thai-style elections don't hurt, because the Thai-style Constitutional Court can easily fix them.

[X] The isolation strategy can be very successful. See colour adjective + badge.

[Dodger]

Beachlover Wrote:


But I think the main reason many farangs feel they must have contact with other farangs and have farang friends or will go mad is the Thais they hang out with tend to be Thais who might be simple and unsophisticated, poorly educated, not broad minded or lack intelligent perspectives...

After about 5 minutes with a group of farangs I usually find myself getting bored stiff, thus the reason I limit these interactions during my holidays. If I want to find sophisticated, open minded and intelligent conversation I can sit with a group of Thai boys (anywhere)...a bit hard to understand at times...I won't have a clue what's going on with the stock market that afternoon...but it works for me.

I've always been amazed at the high level of sophistication the Thai boys exhibit, especially at such young ages. The most pronounced characteristics being their ability to be so polite...never insulting...never down-grading...never showing an ounce of predjudice...and always with a kind smile. These are all components of "sophistication" the way I see it, something which many farangs (not all) seriously lack. Before you decide to debate that point, just read through some of the threads on this forum right now to see just how intelligent and highly sophisticed some farangs can be, e.g., constant insults, crude and repulsive statements, constantly searching for opportunities to down grade others (baiting), showing extreme prejudice...or acting like childish assholes in general...get the picture?

Unfortunately, these twisted idiots conceal themseves very well when in public and can hardly be noticed. They sit around the beer bars in places like Boyztown and Sunee Plaza sporting their pressed polo shirts and smiling at everyone who passes by as if they were the model human being. Then after a few drinks their abilities to conceal their true identity weakens and the truth starts seeping out. First with the insults about the boys, then their complaints about the bars and the bar owners...those god dammed Karen Indians selling necklaces again, the baby elephant walking down THEIR soi, the extra 10 baht they had to pay the motocy driver, and the shit never stops. Then of course no one wants to be anywhere near them. Not the visiting farang, not the boys, and surely not the Karen Indians. So what do they do? They stumble back to their loom - turn on the computer - and double click on the Sawatdee Gay Thailand icon.

[Beachlover]

Hahahaha.... that is great. Especially the ending.

To clarify... I didn't mean ALL farangs. There are some farangs perfectly happy with just the company of Thai boys.

And by "intelligent conversation"... I don't meant the demographic of farangs who hang around Sunee Plaza... but Westerners in general. You know? The type you work with, are friends with and hang around with back home.

So what do they do? They stumble back to their loom - turn on the computer - and double click on the Sawatdee Gay Thailand icon.

So much truth Dodger, especially the last sentence.

[Beachlover]

Haha... Combine it with the graphic description Matt gave of these folk going home alone to eat some disgusting meal.

A sad life indeed. Especially when you're so broke you run out of money and have to go for the arse end of medical care for a life threatening condition...




Unless you have a good medical insurance, donтАЩt bother with private hospitals deal with University Teaching Hospitals, you will pay through the nose other wise; they will run your bill up alarmingly, the bill will be bad for your heart.

I started my treatment at the Bumrungrad in Bangkok, until my Insurance ran out then the Professor treating me said, I Teach at Chula, you can get it for 1/4 of the price, IтАЩm so glad I did as they had much better equipment and all the very latest you could wish for, bought by the King and the Crown Prince.

I have just had life saving treatment at both the below and so glad I did, the only down side is, it may take longer to book in, to start with and you may have longer to wait to see your doctor, but itтАЩs the kings professors you see.

Siriraj Hospital
http://www.si.mahidol.ac.th/eng/siriraj/Centers.asp

Or

http://www.chulalongkornhospital.go.th/

Out side not look so good, but treatment par to excellence/

Before you decide to debate that point, just read through some of the threads on this forum right now to see just how intelligent and highly sophisticed some farangs can be, e.g., constant insults, crude and repulsive statements, constantly searching for opportunities to down grade others (baiting), showing extreme prejudice...or acting like childish assholes in general...get the picture? Unfortunately, these twisted idiots ...
[X] The perfect gentleman's choice of words. Obviously Westerners love brutal frankness.

[X] The exposure to a foreign culture ("twisted idiots") normally leads to feelings of frustration.

[X] Sawatdee Gay Thailand is the place of choice for acting out these feelings.