Tongue Thaied

[PeterUK]

You may recall that I was enquiring about Thai language lessons on this board about 3 months ago. I thought an update might be useful, especially for anyone thinking of doing the same thing. I have been studying with Mim of NS Travel in Sunnee Plaza; she has been recommended here several times. She is a tough, friendly, sweet-natured lady in her thirties and we get on very well. I'd definitely recommend her too. She has an admirably no-nonsense attitude to teaching and is very patient with students who are prepared to make an effort. She pronounces her words very clearly, providing excellent tone practice. I can think of only two drawbacks. She is a bit weak when it comes to explaining rules of grammar - for this purpose I have found a book called Thai for Beginners (by Benjawan Becker, intermediate and advanced books also in the series) to be good for supplementary home study. Secondly, the lessons take place in Mim's travel agency office and interruptions can be frustratingly frequent. Because of this I thought about trying somewhere else after a couple of months, but have stayed with Mim mainly out of respect and liking for her as a person.

In my enquiry on this board 3 months ago I wondered whether it was worth going the whole hog and learning to read and write Thai as well as speak it. That's what I've done and I'd strongly advise anyone else to do the same. It is tough-going at first, coming to terms with the squiggly new alphabet, the different classes of consonant, the tricky vowels and the complicated tonal rules, but as Mim kept assuring me it does all start to fall into place with constant practice. Learning the language properly like this greatly increases the benefits derived. The main one for me is that, Thai being a phonetic language, I can now work out the pronunciation of pretty well any word just from its spelling.

So where do I stand now? I already had a vocabulary of about 500 words when I started. That's gone up to about 800 and, more importantly, I now pronounce them more clearly. For a long time, probably like many farangs, I thought the tones don't REALLY matter (as well as the length of the vowels), but they most assuredly do and I now feel confident of my ability to make myself understood in most situations. Unfortunately, my comprehension skills are still abysmal. I pick up a few more random words when Thais speak than I used to, but still not enough to make sense of what they're saying. 'Fang mai ruu ruang' is a useful idiomatic phrase to be able to use at such times. It translates roughly as 'I'm listening but I don't know what it's about.' At least the phrase will usually bring a smile to the face of your Thai tormentor. Forcing myself to watch a few minutes of Thai TV each day (not a labour of love) helps a bit. It's fun to be able to decipher simple signs in the street now. I stare so long and hard at them that passers-by give me odd looks, perhaps thinking that I have taken up the latest fad of sign-meditation. The other day I was out with a Thai friend and proudly displayed my new-found ability by translating from the Thai on a banner 'Jomtien Complex Night Bazaar'. 'Velly good,' he said, 'but it say same-same in English too.' Unappreciative wretch. When Thai subtitles appear with movies I can now usually manage to make out the first word before they all change - personally I prefer those deeply-felt, sparsely-worded movies. One very practical gain - when looking at young men's ID cards I can now work out not only the year of their birth (which is printed numerically anyway) but the month too. Very useful.

To sum up, after 3 months of study there are still frustrations and times when it all seems like a hard slog, but I've crossed some invisible line now. I'm enjoying it overall and have started to feel the benefits. No more thoughts of giving up. I'd recommend the same course of action to any regular visitor here, certainly any expat.

How frequent and how long were your lessons?

When I fully retire later this year, I plan to make the plunge and study full-time, but not sure how to pace the lessons.

From my first stab at part-time study several years ago, I can still read most of the characters. I can read Thai aloud, but just don't know what the words are that I'm saying.

So are you able to discourse with Thais in Thai about the Four Noble Truths, string theory, whether John Roberts was an appropriate choice as Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court as borne out by his first major decision on euthanasia - that sort of thing? :cheers:

[dab69]

wonder how little progress one could make on a 2-3 week vacation though- better than nothing?
what hours of hers are you taking up already?

I am a retired teacher, and thus always a teacher. I have been working on learning Thai in fits and starts - does not work - for some time. I took a 1 Year course at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London which meant once a week for about two hours. Almost, but not quite, useless. I forgot each week more than I learned. But some of it stuck. In my view you cannot really learn Thai without complete mastery of the script. The script is phonetic once mastered, with a few irregularities, thus you can read and pronounce once you have caught on to the tonal aspects. You could also wildly impress a Thai by writing the word you want to say, and writing for the Thai a known word that the Thai uses. They become AMAZED. However, on the question of how much time, etc., the ideal would be a one hour lesson every day with at least an hour of writing and reading within the context of a controlled vocabulary. Repetition is the key to all language learning. Interestingly and a factor of difficulty with Thai is the total lack of punctuation in Thai. Thus there is no space between words so that each sentence is a single run of Thai letters. However, gradually, one begins to notice shapes within the sentence and it is possible to recognize words. There are also complex rules as to where vowel markers go which helps in differentiating words. Years ago when I was in the Middle East on 'intelligence' work the GSO1 said the best way to learn a language quick was in bed but since he was unable to provide the women (simple soul) we had to use the classroom... and that was total immersion... about six hours a day. You can crack a language in a month that way. I believe with total immersion you would be pretty good in Thai within two months, and fluent in six. It can be done.

[Smiles]

I think you've done spectacularly well Peter.
With my disastrous shortcomings when it comes to attempting to learn another language (and I mean when it has the same alphabet as`english!) I suspect that it will take me 2 years of slogging to get where you have come to in 3 months. Having the 500 words going in helped I'm sure. Right now I have 10 words down pat, can count to 5, but ... have a translator at my beck & call. That's my favourite part, as this translator does "extras" :thumbright:

Cheers ...

[PeterUK]

How frequent and how long were your lessons?


Bkk gwm, I have 5 one-hour lessons a week, Monday to Friday. In addition I do about an hour on average at home each day using the book I mentioned. A language professor once told me that it takes about 2000 hours of study to become reasonably proficient in a language. If that's true, I have a 4 year wait ahead of me!




So are you able to discourse with Thais in Thai about the Four Noble Truths, string theory, whether John Roberts was an appropriate choice as Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court as borne out by his first major decision on euthanasia - that sort of thing?

I'm not sure that I could talk very convincingly about any of those things in English, homintern. I might just pick up some tips along the way in case I fancy a late-blossoming career as a rice farmer.

Some good points by sirmrtravels.

Sadly, Smiles, I have to inform you that one needs an INCENTIVE to learn a foreign language. Unless you perform some radical surgery to your personal relationships (don't do it, don't do it!), I fear you will never acquire one.

[Brad the Impala]

Peter, thanks for the update, and it sounds like impressive progress.

I just wanted to comment on the idea that to learn to speak Thai properly you need to be able to read and write thai too. I think those comments may discourage some from the very rewarding experience of learning Thai.

On the one hand I expect that you are right, that to be completely grammatically corrrect with perfect tones, maybe it is necessary, but my own experience is that I have reached a level of spoken Thai that serves me well, socially and in some business situations, without ever learning to read Thai. Indeed I never studied Thai, but just practised with Thais.

Yes motivation is really important, my start in learning was living with two Thai guys with little English. So my vocabulary grew day by day, and was retained, because the words that I was learning were useful, and used, every day.

For me the use of the language is about being able to communicate, even if your grammar isn't perfect, and it is certainly possible to do that without learning your abc first.

I took a 1 Year course at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London which meant once a week for about two hours. Almost, but not quite, useless.

It took me one term to form the same opinion. You weren't the guy with NI brogue?

No I was not... the NI guy. I managed the full expensive year... and it was about three years ago.. and I am a Brummie born Londoner/Croydonian.

I'm not sure that I could talk very convincingly about any of those things in English, homintern.
No surprises there, then, but frankly if I can't have discussions with the Chosen Few on topics like that then I'm simply not going to bother. There are enough fools around who speak English without me bothering to learn a somewhat unsophisticated but difficult (tonally) language in order to expand the small circle of my intellectual equals who can talk convicingly about those things

[mikelele-old]

Thank you for your update Peter and congratulations! I envy you your achievement. =)

[PeterUK]

No surprises there, then, but frankly if I can't have discussions with the Chosen Few on topics like that then I'm simply not going to bother. There are enough fools around who speak English without me bothering to learn a somewhat unsophisticated but difficult (tonally) language in order to expand the small circle of my intellectual equals who can talk convicingly about those things

Knowledge about things, even starry, wondrous things, does not equate to wisdom. Some of the biggest fools I ever met were in my university days. I still think there's no fool quite so obnoxious as an intelligent one. I'm not surprised, homintern, to hear you say that intelligence is all-important to you. I value decency, kindness, good humour and common sense in people much more highly than intelligence.

[cottmann]

No surprises there, then, but frankly if I can't have discussions with the Chosen Few on topics like that then I'm simply not going to bother. There are enough fools around who speak English without me bothering to learn a somewhat unsophisticated but difficult (tonally) language in order to expand the small circle of my intellectual equals who can talk convicingly about those things

Knowledge about things, even starry, wondrous things, does not equate to wisdom. Some of the biggest fools I ever met were in my university days. I still think there's no fool quite so obnoxious as an intelligent one. I'm not surprised, homintern, to hear you say that intelligence is all-important to you. I value decency, kindness, good humour and common sense in people much more highly than intelligence.


Some musings on what is valued in people:
Decency - yes, though a little indecency on occasion is fun
Kindness - yes, too, though sometimes one does have to be cruel to be kind
Good humor - so long as it does not become buffoonery
Common sense - тАЬCommon sense is not so common.тАЭ - Voltaire

And two favorite quotes on intelligence -
тАЬHappiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.тАЭ Ernest Hemingway
тАЬIt is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well.тАЭ - Rene Descartes

they are, nearly always, merely sophomoric.

I understand not caring what people think of you. No matter what you do there will be those who approve, disapprove and simply don't give a damn. So you may as well be yourself: as soon be hung like a wolf as like a lamb.
What I do not understand is deliberately seeking disapproval by any means. Perhaps it's, as I've been told; a way of saying, 'love me, warts and all.'

Me? To paraphrase a favorite (Folies) song: 'The kind who wouldn't have none of, something he couldn't make fun of.'--And I certainly have fun.

I'm not surprised, homintern, to hear you say that intelligence is all-important to you.
If that is an example of your capacity to understand what people write, I'd stick to your soft-core porn writing, which makes no intellectual demands. The other values of which you speak have little to do with exercising a foreign language, nor could any intelligent person infer from what I wrote that "intelligence is all-important". Intelligent conversation is sufficiently important that I wouldn't waste my time learning Thai in the hope that I would gain sufficient fluency in order to have an intelligent conversation with an educated Thai. That doesn't preclude me from practising other virtues

I'm interested to read that you value "common sense" in other people. So do I. In my experience the major characteristic of common sense is that it is extremely uncommon :compress:

[Brad the Impala]

Oh for heaven's sake Homintern, you and PeterUk are two of our most interesting posters, but boy Colonel, when you have the spleen for someone do you ever vent it! Move on please.

I'm not sure why you think I'm venting spleen, Brad the Inflater. Is it because you don't understand the definition of soft-core pornography? Let me spell it out for you. A work of fiction in which the sexual act is depicted, is pornography. Whether it is soft-core or hard-core is a matter of degree and often subjective. There is no dispute that PeterUK has written (and published) one or more works of fiction in which the sexual act is depicted. He is a pornographer. QED. I make no value judgment about whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Perhaps that is also a source of confusion for you? You are assuming that because I say PeterUK is a soft-core pornographer that is somehow passing a value judgment on him as a person? I don't judge people - point out their shortcomings, follies, inconsistencies - of course. But judge? No. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that sort of thing, is my motto

[Smiles]

" ... A work of fiction in which the sexual act is depicted, is pornography... "

Your (personal) definition of pornography is very different ~ not just splitting hairs ~ from that found in a couple of dictionaries I took a boo at.


"Pornography" is defined in the Online Dictionary ( http://dictionary.reference.com/ ) as:
Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.

Or, in the Merriam-Webster Online ( http://www.m-w.com/ ) as:

1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement

The difference of course lies in the intent.

I have read dozens of PeterUK's stories on message boards for quite a few years now, and I have yet to read anything by him where one could reasonably state that sexual arousal was the primary purpose of the piece.
The stories ~ if they included "sex" at all, and many did not ~ were in the main about his personal observations of life and experiences in Thailand, and the wonky and insightful messages and lessons contained therein.

I remember there was one particular story which involved watching ~ through a one-way mirror ~ sexual acts taking place in another room, but even then it was not the sex itself which took centre stage, but the inner lessons learned from taking part in such an unusual experience. That individual story was ~ to my memory ~ as sexually explicit a piece as Peter has ever posted on these boards . . . and even then it was all about The Story, not about The Sex.

You're barking up the wrong tree on this one Homintern . . . for whatever reason I cannot imagine.

Cheers ...

... we're off in definition land now. I prefer the following: "'Pornography' is a layperson's term, with no particular legal significance. Jones may believe that Penthouse is non-pornographic, while Smith believes that it is. Neither is incorrect.". The rest of the article goes on to cite the Supreme Court of the US' view of what constitutes pornography for a legal prosecution for obscenity to succeed. Note that obscenity (a legal definition) and pornography are not the same thing in law. I cannot know PeterUK's intent

http://censorware.net/essays/obscene_jt.html

I have no intention of backing down on this one, just as I have every intention of, for example, continuing to assert that the 'gay marriage' trend is assimilation by another name, or that Westerners generally consider Asians (in Asia) to be devious because we have been brought up to believe that a man's word is his bond, whereas Asians have not. Others may disagree. You have yourself pointed out in the past, Smiles, the fact that others disagree with me is not something about which I care a jot. As I recall you once described that well-known homophobe, X in Pattaya, as a personal friend (who can forget that lovely self-regarding post of his on Thaiguys, headed "Am I a homophobe?" where he assured us that he had no time for Judy Garland songs, effeminate men, drag queens and a cast of almost every other gay stereotype but then assured us all that that didn't make him a homophobe?). I don't hold it against you; but I won't share your opinion

If I cared, I would be pleased to see that my karma score is dropping by the minute, since getting up people's noses by challenging their assumptions is one of my objectives

[Smiles]

Dearest Homintern, I would never in a million years expect you to change your mind on this. That would indeed be most disappointing and out of character.
The intention was simply to underline my belief that you are completely out to lunch in your overall view of PeterUK's writings in general.
But carry on ...

To keep this small disagreement in a lighter vein though, I give you much praise for NOT being out to lunch in your delicious designation of H*dd* as being an overall (non-pornographic!) nutter! :rabbit:

Cheers ...

... dear Smiles that you have assumed too much of my reading endeavours. I'm afraid female detectives are much more my cuppa in the fiction department than pseudo-serious short stories of the soft-core kind. Kinsey Milhone takes up a lot of my reading time on aeroplanes (much less demanding than the star-spangled bumpkin who is invariably sitting next to me trying to make conversation as UnTied flies me across the Pacific). And then there's Miss Marple ...

I'm essentially a frivolous person. People who want to be serious are such tremendous bores, don't you know

[Smiles]

Bloody hell!! Every thread gets H*dd*-ized in some fashion sooner or later doesn't it.

In this case I started off with "Dearest H*m*nt*rn" (foolish foolish me :blackeye: ) and was answered by "Dear Sm*les" . . . a clear indication of "H*dd*-ization", and a very strong signal that one is about to be patronized.

Cheers ...

I've tried in the past to formulate a Law of Posting Entropy: I fear this is but another example of it

[catawampuscat]

it is amazing that you have stayed with it as only a very tiny percent of expats ever learn enough Thai to have a meaningful conversation.. You are on the first step of the ladder and have a long way to go..
I strongly suggest to move on to an intensive group course where you will converse with many other students and have a different Thai teacher each course..I am unaware of any schools offering intensive courses in Pattaya but they exist in BKK.. There is even a 13 month course in one of the Thai universities in intensive Thai and I have heard it is a bitch but you will be fluent enough to pass the test for Thai citizenship..The school is nicknamed Chula (not sure of spelling) but only for the most serious...

[Brad the Impala]

I'm not sure why you think I'm venting spleen, Brad the Inflater. Is it because you don't understand the definition of soft-core pornography?

Whatever is or isn't soft core pornography, my point was do you have to drag it up every time PeterUK makes a post? You have made your point, whatever it was. To keep repeating it, is about as interesting to the rest of us as someone referring to your jeep every time you post.

Thank you Brad. I'm not sure that "you have made your point, whatever it was" actually means anything. Either I have made my point so you know what it is, or I haven't succeeded in making my point at all. In the same vein I received this somewhat illiterate message of support and encouragement from one BenCH - "What is driving you? Your posts remind me too much of Hedda's arrogant, aggressive stile. I wished you would calm down."

I'm not sure why he felt the need to send me a message rather than post here. I always include fan mail in the Forum where it can be enjoyed by all :geek:

[Brad the Impala]

Thank you Brad. I'm not sure that "you have made your point, whatever it was" actually means anything. Either I have made my point so you know what it is, or I haven't succeeded in making my point at all. In the same vein I received this somewhat illiterate message of support and encouragement from one BenCH - "What is driving you? Your posts remind me too much of Hedda's arrogant, aggressive stile. I wished you would calm down."

I'm not sure why he felt the need to send me a message rather than post here. I always include fan mail in the Forum where it can be enjoyed by all :geek:

Perhaps BenCH was showing you the courtesy of complaining/criticizing in private, rather than in public. Clearly he misjudged your ability to receive or reciprocate that quality.

Clearly he misjudged your ability to receive or reciprocate that quality.
Just so

[painai2]

Thanks to catawampuscat to sticking to the topic. I am retiring in a few months, and will be living in Pattaya. I've been studying the books and tapes by Benjawan Poomsan Becker and am ready to take lessons by a teacher. Too bad to really get intensive group classes I will have to go to Bangkok. There must be somewhere in Pattaya where group lessons are taught.

[TrongpaiExpat]

The school is nicknamed Chula (not sure of spelling) but only for the most serious...

This is what your talking about, very expensive, 25,000 for 5 weeks.

www.arts.chula.ac.th/MISC/intensive_thai.html (http://www.arts.chula.ac.th/MISC/intensive_thai.html)

I fear I would be left in the dust from those who have better langage skills than me.

[PeterUK]

Painai2, it sounds as if you are approaching the matter in a very sensible fashion. I don't know if you have the CD 'Improving Your Thai Pronunciation' by Benjawan Becker, but it is an excellent way to practise particularly the tones and vowel sounds when not in the company of Thais. Just reading books can get one into bad habits (and I'm not referring to pornography, soft-core or otherwise).