New laws to ban smoking in Thailand - almost everywhere

[wowpow]

I missed this one but Gaybutton did not so I lifted it from Gaythailand website.

Smokers to Face Tougher Restrictions and Fines, The Nation, Published on September 2, 2006

Finding a place to light up a cigarette is going to become much more difficult when the Public Health Ministry's tougher anti-smoking regulations take effect in November.
The regulations are going to turn most public areas into no-smoking zones, while attractive descriptions such as "Mild" and "Light" will be removed from cigarette packets and the harmful and carcinogenic components of smoke will be displayed.
The regulations will also introduce more pictorial warnings about smoking on the packets.

The ban on smoking in most public areas will become effective in November, while other regulations will come into force next February. Caretaker Public Health Minister Pinij Charusombat said he had signed for the amendment to regulations on August 24. However, the regulations will have to be announced in the Royal Gazette for a certain period of time before they can come into force. "If you defy the smoking ban, you face a fine," Pinij added. An offence by a smoker will be punishable by a fine of up to Bt2,000, while the offending property owner will face a fine of up to Bt20,000. Pinij said the regulations were aimed to protect Thais from smoking dangers.

According to him, six Thais die of smoking-related diseases every hour, which equates to about 52,000 deaths a year. Smoking-related diseases - heart diseases, lung cancer and bronchitis - cost the country more than Bt50 billion in healthcare services.

After the new regulations take effect, most public places will become no-smoking zones. This includes stadiums, bus stops, buses, children's playgrounds, public parks, sport facilities and public telephone booths. Currently, no-smoking areas are mostly restricted to air-conditioned zones.

Pinij yesterday said the words "Mild" and "Light" would be removed from cigarette packets because they could mislead buyers into believing that the danger of smoking was not serious. This regulation looks set to seriously affect one cigarette brand, "Mild Seven Light". In 2004, the Council of State said this was a trade name and should be allowed to remain. But the latest move by the Public Health Ministry may remove the immunity. Pinij did not mention the trade name yesterday. However, he added that cigarette packets would be required to display the harmful and carcinogenic cigarette-smoke components such as tar, formaldehyde, carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide. He said pictorial warnings on packets would also have more designs. All warnings will feature the adverse effects of smoking.

Duangkamon Sajirawattanakul The Nation

Bravo - it's such a delight when a Government Minister does something sensible and beneficial to the citizens and visitors. Oh the thought of smoke free bars and restaurants fills me with joy. Does anyone have the address of the Public Health Ministry so that I can shop anyone who contravenes the law - well at least if they decline to cross my palm with 15,000 baht!

Compliments also to Arnie (ex Tawan?) who has done similar in California.

This drives me nuts!!

Alcohol causes more deaths and health care problems that smoking ever does. WIll they start on alcohol next? I doubt it!

About time , but will it be put into pratice

About time, but will it be put into pratice

Ah, this is Thailand, likely not for long and not everywhere.

[TrongpaiExpat]

This includes stadiums, bus stops, buses, children's playgrounds, public parks, sport facilities and public telephone booths. Currently, no-smoking areas are mostly restricted to air-conditioned zones.

Telephone booths? Will this apply to bars, go go or disco? I hope so but doubt it.

[rincondog]

Compliments also to Arnie (ex Tawan?) who has done similar in California.
Arnold had nothing to do with the non-smoking ordinances in California. They went into effect well before he became governor. In fact since he smokes cigars, which arent allowed in public buildings, he had to set up a tent on capitol grounds so he could smoke cigars with his cronies. He hardly sets a good example.

[Up2U]

This drives me nuts!!

Alcohol causes more deaths and health care problems that smoking ever does. WIll they start on alcohol next? I doubt it!

This is argumentable. Alcohol (wine) in moderation actually has health benefits. There is a ballot initiative here in California this November that will place an additional $2.50 (100 THB) tax on a pack of cigarettes bringing the total costs to $7.50 (300 THB) per pack. I will vote "yes".

[TrongpaiExpat]

This drives me nuts!!

Alcohol causes more deaths and health care problems that smoking ever does. WIll they start on alcohol next? I doubt it!

What's the sorce (study, reference, stats) of that claim?

This drives me nuts!!

Alcohol causes more deaths and health care problems that smoking ever does. WIll they start on alcohol next? I doubt it!

What's the sorce (study, reference, stats) of that claim?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3537257.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3121440.stm

THE UK'S ALCOHOL PROBLEM
The scale and cost of drinking in the UK

The study by the Prime Minister's Strategy Unit shows 17 million working days are lost to hangovers and drink-related illness each year.

The annual cost to employers is estimated to be ┬г6.4 billion while the cost to the NHS is in the region of ┬г1.7bn.

Billions more are spent clearing up alcohol-related crime and social problems.

In addition, alcohol-related problems are responsible for 22,000 premature deaths each year.


However, the authors of the report said that even these figures may be a conservative estimate.

They found that there are 1.2 million incidents of alcohol-related violence a year.

Around 40% of A&E admissions are alcohol-related. Between midnight and 5am that figure rises to 70%.

Alcohol-related accidents and illnesses land around 150,000 people in hospital each year.

Up to 1.3 million children are affected by parents with drink problems, the report said.

and then theres the cost to others.

Alcohol-related crime
The links between alcohol and violence are well established. But we are determined to rid our streets of this growing problem.

Facts & figures
in nearly half (48%) of all violent incidents, victims believed offenders to be under the influence of alcohol
this figure rose to 60% in cases of 'stranger violence'

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-vict ... ted-crime/ (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/alcohol-related-crime/)

[Surfcrest]

This drives me nuts!!
Alcohol causes more deaths and health care problems that smoking ever does. WIll they start on alcohol next? I doubt it!

When you are in a bar enjoying a drink, the drink doesn't affect anyone else in the
bar unless you spill it on someone or choose to drive under the influence and smash into one of them on the road later.

Enjoying a cigarette, like the fellow above enjoying a drink is quite a different matter. Having a cigarette affects anyone that shares your second hand smoke. ItтАЩs like spilling your drink on everyone in the room andтАжтАж.And it's a proven medical fact.

Unless we are talking about a тАЬheavy drinkerтАЭ, there is a big difference between a drinker and a smoker in terms of the effects of both substances on each.

In intelligent countries that have determined health care to be a citizenтАЩs right and the governmentтАЩs responsibility realize that smoking related ailments are an incredible drain on hospitals and public resources. As Thailand only recently implemented the basic foundations for a health care program, itтАЩs only logical that the same government would take these measures against smoking. A reduction on the amount spent on treating / keeping smokers alive frees up resources for a good health care plan.

Surfcrest

This drives me nuts!!

Alcohol causes more deaths and health care problems that smoking ever does. WIll they start on alcohol next? I doubt it!

This is argumentable. Alcohol (wine) in moderation actually has health benefits. There is a ballot initiative here in California this November that will place an additional $2.50 (100 THB) tax on a pack of cigarettes bringing the total costs to $7.50 (300 THB) per pack. I will vote "yes".

couldn`t agree more........... i dont mind paying the price.

they cost ┬г4-50 to ┬г5-50 a pack already in UK

($9 - $11?)

This drives me nuts!!
Alcohol causes more deaths and health care problems that smoking ever does. WIll they start on alcohol next? I doubt it!

When you are in a bar enjoying a drink, the drink doesn't affect anyone else in the
bar unless you spill it on someone or choose to drive under the influence and smash into one of them on the road later.

Enjoying a cigarette, like the fellow above enjoying a drink is quite a different matter. Having a cigarette affects anyone that shares your second hand smoke. ItтАЩs like spilling your drink on everyone in the room andтАжтАж.And it's a proven medical fact.

Unless we are talking about a тАЬheavy drinkerтАЭ, there is a big difference between a drinker and a smoker in terms of the effects of both substances on each.

In intelligent countries that have determined health care to be a citizenтАЩs right and the governmentтАЩs responsibility realize that smoking related ailments are an incredible drain on hospitals and public resources. As Thailand only recently implemented the basic foundations for a health care program, itтАЩs only logical that the same government would take these measures against smoking. A reduction on the amount spent on treating / keeping smokers alive frees up resources for a good health care plan.

Surfcrest

good points.i would answer with.

1) have seperate smokers rooms

2) charge me as a smoker for health care.


I dont want to harm or bother anyone.
I just hate the idea of them deciding what we can and cannot do.
Once they kill off smoking will they turn their attention to alcohol/car fumes/sex tourism-stds etc etc.
me thinks they will - do gooders always need a cause.

[Surfcrest]

The study by the Prime Minister's Strategy Unit shows 17 million working days are lost to hangovers and drink-related illness each year.
The annual cost to employers is estimated to be ┬г6.4 billion while the cost to the NHS is in the region of ┬г1.7bn.


I don't see how this statistic is the government's problem.
Clearly this should be something the employer should be managing.

Surfcrest

The study by the Prime Minister's Strategy Unit shows 17 million working days are lost to hangovers and drink-related illness each year.
The annual cost to employers is estimated to be ┬г6.4 billion while the cost to the NHS is in the region of ┬г1.7bn.


I don't see how this statistic is the government's problem.
Clearly this should be something the employer should be managing.

Surfcrest

if only they could.............doctor signs sick note - employee safe.

never seen a sicknote with " bad hangover" on it lol

Ok - rant over - im off to smoke myself silly in my own room watching thai gay porn videos!

I might even go the whole hog and crack open a singha!

Enjoy your day lucky people!

[Surfcrest]

1) have seperate smokers rooms.

What is a separate smoker room used for? A hotel room, a separate room in a restaurant?

The employees that work in non-smoke free environments have won the right to have their health protected through the governmentтАЩs legislation and enforcement of smoke free work environments. If you believe a smoke free room exists in that reality, then maybe that could be possible. Like those glass cased in rooms you see in some airports, zoo cages for parents to point out to their small children in tow.



2) charge me as a smoker for health care.

Are you inviting the government and indeed the health authorities to keep that information about people? Do you pay for all of your health care premiums or does your employer (present / past) pay a share? Clearly itтАЩs more cost effective and allows you to maintain all of your rights by managing it this way.

You can still smoke and the health care net will always be there for you, regardless whether the cost of repairing you / keeping you alive far exceeds any premiums ever paid on your behalf. You simply canтАЩt smoke where it affects another person. That sounds like a generous deal for the smoker.


Once they kill off smoking will they turn their attention to alcohol/car fumes/sex tourism-stds etc etc.
me thinks they will - do gooders always need a cause.

The тАЬdo goodersтАЭ are the ones smart enough to in act this legislation and tie in to the only thing that matters to government тАЬmoneyтАЭ. Surely there are messages out there already about excessive drinking, drinking and youth and drinking and driving. WeтАЩve had тАЬAircareтАЭ enforced for some time to take vehicles belching fumes off the road, reduce smog levels and protect those suffering from breathing ailments.

As for тАЬsex tourism-stds etc etc.тАЭ, itтАЩs all about cause and economics.
Supply & DemandтАжтАж.back to sex-toursim ;)

Surfcrest

[wowpow]

https://c-67-173-168-72.hsd1.il.comcast ... 473673.stm (https://c-67-173-168-72.hsd1.il.comcast.net/cgi-bin/nph-472136.cgi/010110A/http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/473673.stm)

The BIG difference between Smoking and alcohol is that Smoking affects those around you and can cause them smoking related illnesses and if they are suffering from the effects of past smoking - like me with emphysema - it causes great distress and makes me leave smoky places.

There seems little point to me in comparing alcohol excesses with Smoking. Both are bad and injurious to health and Governments have a moral duty to educate the people to be aware of the dangers and make it difficult for those who indulge to influence or effect others. Those who want can kill themselves privately without doing so in public and causing nuisance - so please don't blow it up my nose.

The Thai Government's new laws on smoking, I welcome and can see that they will have a positive effect on reducing secondary smoking infections and make places pleasanter for many. The recent restrictions on alcohol sales - 1 a.m. closing and no sales hours during the day - strike me as very foolish and very unlikely to have any positive effect.

================================================== =================================================


Smoking is a greater cause of death and disability than any single disease, says the World Health Organisation


According to their figures, it is responsible for approximately five million deaths worldwide every year. Tobacco smoking is a known or probable cause of approximately 25 diseases, and even the WHO says that its impact on world health is not fully assessed.

Heart attack and stroke - UK studies show that smokers in their 30s and 40s are five times more likely to have a heart attack than non-smokers. Tobacco contributes to the hardening of the arteries, which can then become blocked and starve the heart of bloodflow, causing the attack. Often, smokers who develop this will require complex and risky heart bypass surgery. If you smoke for a lifetime, there is a 50% chance that your eventual death will be smoking-related - half of all these deaths will be in middle age.
Smoking also increases the risk of having a stroke.

Lung problems - Another primary health risk associated with smoking are lung cancer, which kills more than 20,000 people in the UK every year. US studies have shown that men who smoke increase their chances of dying from the disease by more than 22 times. Women who smoke increase this risk by nearly 12 times. Lung cancer is a difficult cancer to treat - long term survival rates are poor. Smoking also increases the risk of oral, uterine, liver, kidney, bladder, stomach, and cervical cancers, and leukaemia.
Another health problem associated with tobacco is emphysema, which, when combined with chronic bronchitis, produces chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. The lung damage which causes emphysema is irreversible, and makes it extremely difficult to breathe.

Harm to children - Smoking in pregnancy greatly increases the risk of miscarriage, is associated with lower birthweight babies, and inhibited child development. Smoking by parents following the birth is linked to sudden infant death syndrome, or cot death, and higher rates of infant respiratory illness, such as bronchitis, colds, and pneumonia.

Nicotine, an ingredient of tobacco, is listed as an addictive substance by the US authorities. Although the health risks of smoking are culmulative, giving up can yield health benefits regardless of the age of the patient, or the length of time they have been smoking.

Future impact - By 2020, the WHO expects the worldwide death toll to reach 10 million, causing 17.7% of all deaths in developed countries.

There are believed to be 1.1 billion smokers in the world, 800 million of them in developing countries.


See also:

13 Oct 99 | Health
Tobacco giant admits health risks
11 Oct 99 | Health
Fury at tobacco ban delay
07 Mar 99 | Health
┬г10m lung cancer blitz
Internet links:

WHO tobacco factsheet

The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites

This will be another opportunity for the police to target foreigners and impose on-the-spot "fines" (that will never show up in the government's receipts) - just like the litter laws

... I am torn. I don't wish to inflict my curse on others, but as long as there is no ban on smoking in bars in Thailand I continue to do so.

I remember when, in the UK, we could smoke on busses (top deck only), on airplanes (in specified seating at the back of the plane), on the Underground (which was disgusting even for a smoker) and at the cinema too. All these places have now banned smoking and at no real hardship to us smokers, although when travelling I do rush for a quickie prior to departure and immediatley after landing.

I am against the suggested 'smoking rooms' which, if you have ever stepped inside one of those glass goldfish bowls at the airport, are possibly one of the most vomit making environments known to man. As a smoker I feel sick after standing in one of them for a couple of minutes. More open air bars where you can smoke to your hearts content, like the ones in Sunee, would be welcome. But going as far as California has done in banning smoking in public parks, any open areas on civic land and even at the beach is ridiculous.

I do rush for a quickieI think many of us do - usually it's for a Thai boy to smoke me, but I have been known to reciprocate, time permitting

I do rush for a quickieI think many of us do - usually it's for a Thai boy to smoke me, but I have been known to reciprocate, time permitting

Now if only Thailand offerred 'smoking rooms' at the airport to accommodate your (all our) smoking needs Homintem. I am sure we'd all feel much more relaxed when travelling. :cheers:

I dont smoke, unless i am offered one, but i think these sorts of draconian anti smoking drives are ridiculous. Yes in crowded bars and eateries smoking is not very considerate, but who gives a tos anywhere else. I agree alcohol is a far worse problem.
The laws might be put in place but as others correctly see it, they will not be enforced anyway.

Now you see what you have done, i am all fired up for a cig. It's like during the mad cow extravaganza in Britain, initially sales of beef plummeted but then they went through the roof, as night after night the hot subject on the news and everywhere was beef on the bone.

[catawampuscat]

A few nites ago, a fat assed farang practically sat on my lap as he sqeezed into a space between me and his friend..Of course, he didn't say excuse
me or even glance my way..In seconds, he lit up a nasty cigarette and held it inches from my leg in his hand on my side..Rude fucking asshole and I commented loudly to my friend as I am not shy but the smoke was so annoying I ended up moving a bit and then leaving.. Lightning up a cigarette when you are so close to another person that you have body contact and holding it inches from the other person is rude and obnoxous.. I would have loved to
shove the shitstick down his throat but I am too much of a gentleman for that.. Hope you smokers get the message and when the law takes effect all
gloves will be off and smokers will become the pariahs they really are...smoke that :thin:

Actually i changed my mind. i do smoke, but only if there is an American close by that i can piss off. Especially in crowded bars and eateries.

... one thing worse than one of us smokers inflicting our smoke on others, it is the prissy farts who give a fake 'cough' and a pinched lipped stare at you when you do smoke, and THEY usual reek of Paco Rabanne or somesuch poured on by the bucket load.

i agree fatman, i just want to give em an upper cut. And the ones who start flapping their hands infront of their face as they pass a smoker in the street, I wanna clamp their silly mouth over the exaust of a diesel bus and rev the engine.

... and THEY usual reek of Paco Rabanne or some such poured on by the bucket load.

Far better to reek of Paco Rabanne or CK1 (or the like) than smelling like the bottom of an old unemptyed ashtray. It is a wonder you manage to get any Thaiboy to come near you - it must cost you a fortune to bribe them to go to bed with you and put up with the awful reek of stale tobacco.

Prissy Fart (and proud of it !!!)

[Dodger]

Forget those comparisons to alchohol...just breathing the AIR is enough to kill you.

I'm a cigarette smoker, and I even get light headed after inhaling those motocy fumes that fill the sois in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I haven't done any research on this, but I have to believe that the air pollution levels in these areas is ranked among the most dangerous on our lovely planet. There is obviously no control over gas emissions, or for that fact, any environmental emissions in LOS.

I remember standing on the corner of South Pattaya Road and Second Road once - watching this very health conscious jogger as he bounced up and down next to me (jogging in place) as he impatiently waited for the light to turn green. There must have been over 100 motocys lurching at that intersection with their badly tuned engines spewing huge puffs of unspent carbon monoxide in the air. I had to wonder what was going on in the mind of the jogger, as his cardiovascular pace was so pumped up - he was breathing-in twice as much of the poisonous fumes as the average person that afternoon.

I consider myself to be a mindful smoker and avoid lighting up in closed public dwellings all together, with the exception being bars where others are smoking. I also sit in non-smoking sections of restaurants routinely, because, as ridiculous as this must sound, I don't like the smell of cigarettes when I'm eating. Overall, I support anti-smoking restrictions because it is a step in the right direction to controlling our environment and personal health, although, those in higher places should learn the importance of establishing priorities and going after the major causes of air pollution first.

I can just see it now...one of our wonderful boys-in-brown pulling up next to me on some street corner, with his motocy belching large puffs of deadly carbon monoxide in my face, as he writes me a ticket for puffing on a Marlboro Light.

mai pen rai

[Surfcrest]

I think these sorts of draconian anti smoking drives are ridiculous. Yes in crowded bars and eateries smoking is not very considerate, but who gives a tos anywhere else.

Obviously, while you are instructing us on what you deem "not very considerate" you might "give a tos" to whomever needs to sit / work in the environment you are smoking in. Have you ever observed how considerate smokers dispose of their cigarette butts? Or how disconnected their hand becomes while holding a cigarette butt, like who gives a toss if I put a small smudge / hole in your $200 shirt.


i just want to give em an upper cut. And the ones who start flapping their hands infront of their face as they pass a smoker in the street, I wanna clamp their silly mouth over the exaust of a diesel bus and rev the engine.

Although this may come across as quite funny on Bugs Bunny, this sort of violent behavior is not really normal.
Not even in America, go figure!

Surfcrest

I agree totally its a disgusting habit and we smokers should be isolated BUT.......... its the freedom of choice issue that concerns me most and also it will cost everyone money - not just smokers.

The government say it costs X amount per year to the health services - when smoking is gone do you think they will cut the health service budget by the amount they saved? I higky doubt they have ever cut a health budget for any reason.

They raise billions from smoking tax revenue every year. where will the money come from to replace this lost revenue?

http://www.the-tma.org.uk/page.aspx?page_id=10

The tax raised through the sale of tobacco products continues to be a major source of revenue for the Government, contributing around ┬г10 billion annually. This is, according to the Treasury, equivalent to almost 3 pence on the basic rate of income tax or 13 pence on the top rate of income tax

License all the drugs that lots and lots and lots of people use illegally, and raise revenue through excise taxes. After all, as any pharmacologist knows, tobacco is much more addictive than heroin, so that can't be an argument against this wonderful proposal. Mind you, it will dampen down uncle boygeenyus' second most favourite spectator sport - lynching drug dealers or (better) the small game safaris organised by his hero Dr Toxin to shoot them

i just want to give em an upper cut. And the ones who start flapping their hands infront of their face as they pass a smoker in the street, I wanna clamp their silly mouth over the exaust of a diesel bus and rev the engine.

Although this may come across as quite funny on Bugs Bunny, this sort of violent behavior is not really normal.
Not even in America, go figure!

Surfcrest

Lets hope it becomes de rigeur. I don't want to start lecturing you on violent behaviour in America, you obviously live in such peaceful and naive bliss, like the rest of middle America, god save their sons, fighting gods will in the middle East.
Just take one look inside a school room and you will get your head spattered against the nearest wall. Not to mention your war leader, the only thing it's little pin head can mutter is FIRE every time he wishes to top up his tank with cheap "gasoline". I think you may find you live amongst the most anally fixated and violent peoples on our planet.
Go figure.

[catawampuscat]

I am an ex-smoker and understand the addiction and pleasures of smoking.. But things change, and the world attitude towards things change...
In a few decades , smoking will be considered akin to chewing tobacco and spitting the tobacco juice on the floor..
There is no inherent right to smoke cigarettes, cigars or pipes and it is only the massive amounts of money being made by the tobacco people that have allowed this disgusting and certainly unhealthy habit from continuing so long..

Even the vilest cigarette smoker must feel bad when they see the young Thais grabbing for cigarettes from their friends and spending the few
baht they have to buy a couple of loose cigarettes rather than buying food.. I would like to see tobacco treated in the same drug category as
opium based drugs but such a prohibition will only create a new criminal class of great wealth and even more corruption but at least prohibit
smoking everywhere possible... :cat:

I can see before this thread has run out of steam I am going to become a chain smoker. I just ran out to bum a Marlboro red from the house-boy, mmmm hmm it's good. Good suggestion catawampus.
Thats one thing I love about Hong Kong and China, all the best restaurants have smoking sections or are just smoke anywhere places. I just love that rich smell of tobacco smoke wafting across, especially the Turkish blends. On Bali you get whole bales of fresh golden moist tobacco for sale in the night markets, what a glorious smell, quite unlike anything else, they add a bit of clove to the mix, heaven.

[sjaak327]

I don't know why people keep complaining about smokers and their "nasty" habit. Let's face it, most places are smoke free already. And I for one have nothing against that. There is only one place where these anti smokers should keep away from, and that's the pub. That's the last bastion for smokers, and I think we should make sure it will stay that way. I actually wonder why governments are not making use of the free market economy in this perspective. Why not let bar owners decide if they want their pub to be a smoking or a non smoking establishment. That would be fair to everyone concerned. Also then you would have a real choice. Of course most governments are going for a complete smoke free environment. I hope they are so fiar that they will instantly lower taxes on cigarettes and tobacco. Also it's maybe fair to note that tobacco is no longer the number one health budget breaker. Overweight for instance is the number one in the states already as it comes to health costs.

Further, I really wonder why people become so intolerant when smoking is concerned. As if that would be the number one annoyance. Most of these complainers are people with a screw loose if you ask me. I know many non-smokers, most of them are not that militant as some in this thread, and most of them don't have anything against people smoking. And let's be honest, you are not going to die if someone lights up a cigarette, don't overreact, it's not the end of the world.

(1) Further, I really wonder why people become so intolerant when smoking is concerned. ................
(2) you are not going to die if someone lights up a cigarette, don't overreact, it's not the end of the world.

(1) Because smokers have no regard for non-smokers who are in their immediate vicinity and who are exposed to the smoke (which affects their health) and vile smell (which impregnates their clothes and hair).

(2) Read all the literate on passive smoking instead of making absurd, uninformed statements...and for some people who catch cancer from your smoke it could be the end of the world !!!

[sjaak327]

(1) Because smokers have no regard for non-smokers who are in their immediate vicinity and who are exposed to the smoke (which affects their health) and vile smell (which impregnates their clothes and hair).

So where exactly do smokers have to give some regard, as stated before almost everywhere smoking is banned already. Are we going to get into a situation where someone lighting a cigarette in the street, has to prepare for dirty looks. Should be fun, people having problems with someone smoking on say Thanon Phetburi, where at the same time hundreds of cars are making sure that the air is nice and clean.



2) Read all the literate on passive smoking instead of making absurd, uninformed statements...and for some people who catch cancer from your smoke it could be the end of the world !!!

Right, passive smoking is not a 100% untwisted concept now is it. There are several investigations, some claiming that passive smoking is indeed a big deal, some investigations which are claiming that the effects of passive smoking are not that great.

You have to see it into perspective, that what's lacking in some of the anti smokers. Again the places at which you could be subject to passive smoking are very few to begin with. (Pubs, some restaurants and outside), and secondly the very few place where smoking is actually allowed, are easily avoidable by non smokers.

A few months back I needed to go on a business trip, so here I was at Schiphol airport, having a beer and a cigarette. Now there was this guy sitting next to me, who was not pleased I smoked, he was doing all kinds of things to make me aware of the fact, that my smoke bothered him. Now I ask you, who is the bad guy here ? Schiphol airport is 98% non smoking, and even on the 2% territory, there are obviously people who make problems about smoking. After a while I was ready to give him a piece of my mind, but I though better of it, this guy was miserable enough already.

(2) Read all the literate on passive smoking instead of making absurd, uninformed statements...and for some people who catch cancer from your smoke it could be the end of the world !!!I myself suffer from passive foruming - reading comments that tend to bring on heart attacks. Can I be compensated somehow?

[jinks]

I myself suffer from passive foruming - reading comments that tend to bring on heart attacks. Can I be compensated somehow?

How do you think I feel ........

To re-quote Smiles using my quote .....

I've had enough of this crap :faroah:

[Surfcrest]

Lets hope it becomes de rigeur. I don't want to start lecturing you on violent behaviour in America, you obviously live in such peaceful and naive bliss, like the rest of middle America, god save their sons, fighting gods will in the middle East.
Just take one look inside a school room and you will get your head spattered against the nearest wall. Not to mention your war leader, the only thing it's little pin head can mutter is FIRE every time he wishes to top up his tank with cheap "gasoline". I think you may find you live amongst the most anally fixated and violent peoples on our planet.
Go figure.

ItтАЩs a good thing you arenтАЩt into lecturing me on violent behaviour in America.
I might be inclined to question your credentials...........if any.

You obviously have your own view on America, American society and AmericaтАЩs role in the world. ItтАЩs become more than a little tired, but then again IтАЩm a Canadian who happens to ignore a great deal of what you write. Have ALL your servants been tutoring you again Master Cedric?

Surfcrest

I'll tell you why I like the cigarette business. It cost a penny to make. Sell it for a dollar. It's addictive. And there's a fantastic brand loyaltyMind you, that sounds like many Forum members in their attitudes to visiting Thailand for boys :compress:

... been said about smokers showing a distinct lack of concern for their fellow man 'no regard for non smokers'. It is simply, as some have already stated, a matter of placing yourself in positions where you can smoke or, in the case of those who do not wish to avail themselves of the dreaded weed, placing themselves in positions where they will not be affected by others smoke..

I believe in many countries it is frowned upon, if not illegal, to smoke indoors, whether in the workplace, restaurant, coffee shop, on public transport or in shopping malls etc. I believe that you will find the vast majority of smokers abide by these regulations and stub out before entering such places. Even we smokers dislike anyone who breaks the smoking rules. Therefore, I do not think it is correct to say that smokers have no regard for non smokers otherwise we would just light up anywhere. We smoke where we are 'allowed' to smoke and if these places are known for allowing smoking and you are upset by this, then I would suggest that you complain either to the manager of the establishment or move to another place. It is not your right to huff and puff and criticise someone for doing something they want to do and that is legal.

I do believe passive smoke causes cancer as does smoking itself. 9 out of 10 instances of lung cancer are caused by smoking and workers in a smokey bar or club have an increased risk of lung cancer by an estimated 17%. There are other factors that may cause lung cancer such as asbestos exposure, chemical exposure (the likes of uranium, chromium and nickel or radon gas), air pollution (which is estimated to cause between 2 and 10% of all cases), family history and even diet.[/list]

I dont like to constantly sound anti-American, but the fact that so much of our world is negatively influenced by America, makes this almost impossible to avoid.

Sometimes I wish it was enough just to say, the Americans are fucked and leave it at that, but this is obviously unfair to the minority of them that aren't fucked. So just to say as fucked as most of them are, and as feverishly that they try and tell the rest of the world what to do, personal choice is not something they should fuck with outside of America, and certainly not if they expect not to be called fucked.

Smoking should be possible, without smokers having to feel like criminals, as fatman suggests. Smokers should not be victimised and should stand up for their rights. Anyone who applauds a blanket and draconian smoking ban, is simply appeasing American extremists.

The primarily American led, global anti smoking lobby has no business imposing American concepts of curtailing an individuals freedom and rights. "Asia is now the priority target for the world anti-tobacco movement" Knight and Capman.
I suggest there should rather be a "global anti American lobby" with an aim to a 100% zero tolerance, to Americas influences beyond it's own borders.

[Dodger]

Cedric States...


I suggest there should rather be a "global anti American lobby" with an aim to a 100% zero tolerance, to Americas influences beyond it's own borders.

As an American, I have to agree.

We, as Americans, should focus more on getting back to enjoying the life we worked hard to build and let the other country's worry about their own shit. Yesterday, a research vessel found, what could be, another oil supply in U.S. waters that could harvest as much as 1/2 of our country's total oil reserve. That, coupled with the accelerated research and development of alternate fuels should be our primary focus.

We Americans should also avoid the leadership role in the war on terrorism and just let one of the other countries take the lead for a chance. Maybe Ireland would want to step up to the plate. Maybe France or Russia could do it. Who knows.

America should not try to influence others beyond its borders any more. We should just sit back and enjoy the wealth and prosperity we've worked hard to achieve and get back to the golf course. If someone trys to explode another one of our buildings we should just kick the crap out of them and be done with it. As an American I wish we would create a "global anti bullshit lobby" with am aim to a zero tolerance to other countries influences within our own borders.

Some good ideas Doger.

[Surfcrest]

I dont like to constantly sound anti-American, but the fact that so much of our world is negatively influenced by America, makes this almost impossible to avoid.

Sometimes I wish it was enough just to say, the Americans are fucked and leave it at that, but this is obviously unfair to the minority of them that aren't fucked. So just to say as fucked as most of them are, and as feverishly that they try and tell the rest of the world what to do, personal choice is not something they should fuck with outside of America, and certainly not if they expect not to be called fucked.

Don't you think you may be confusing the decisions made by the current elected administration with you description of all Americans in general?
Were you aware of how the last and prior electoral split went?
Whether Americans, who make up a significant amount of the membership here at Sawatdee support the current administration or some of their decisions certainly does not categorize most of them in your uneducated and totally uninformed description as being тАЬfuckedтАЭ.
Maybe its time to get your feet off Oprah's couch, have a look in the mirror yourself and ask yourself if it isn't you who's just a little fucked.
Living on the border has afforded me many friends on both sides of the line.
A vast majority of my friends, while I am living in Pattaya part time are Americans.
I am in and out of the States several times a year, although I'm not one to plan an excursion into some of the more notorious and dangerous parts of certain cities obviously.
Although I'm not saying your vision of America doesn't exist in places, it is nothing as you exaggerate.



The primarily American led, global anti smoking lobby has no business imposing American concepts of curtailing an individuals freedom and rights. "Asia is now the priority target for the world anti-tobacco movement" Knight and Capman.
I suggest there should rather be a "global anti American lobby" with an aim to a 100% zero tolerance, to Americas influences beyond it's own borders.

Why would you assume the American Anti-Smoking lobby is leading the charge here?
Who has the lion's share of the global tobacco industry?
I think you'll find that steps taken by the American Tobacco Industry are designed more to reduce their liability in court rather than to cut into their actual market share.
The real "Anti-Smoking" lobby is lead by non-smokers, health professionals, insurance companies and societies (Heart & Stroke / Cancer).

If you suggest a global anti-American lobby, you can start by not buying anything from American companies or foreign companies financed by American investment. Once you find that leaves you with very little to wear, you can become another John Walker Lindh. He seems to have gotten a bit farther than you with his Anti-American message.

Surfcrest

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Dodger said:

"America should not try to influence others beyond its borders any more. We should just sit back and enjoy the wealth and prosperity we've worked hard to achieve and get back to the golf course. If someone trys to explode another one of our buildings we should just kick the crap out of them and be done with it. As an American I wish we would create a "global anti bullshit lobby" with am aim to a zero tolerance to other countries influences within our own borders."

An interesting manifesto there, Dodger. But America could do this already, if it REALLY wanted (I read somewhere that if American cars were as fuel efficient as European ones, the USA could be nearly self-sufficient in petroleum).

Obviously there is some reason why the USA does not pursue this isolationist course, however.

Partly it is I suppose the influence of AIPAC (the American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and its like, but i am damned if i know what the rest of the reason is

Some sort of national hubris perhaps?

[Aunty]

Of course you guys aren't seriously suggesting that the role of the US in the world today is somehow just so much worse than the role of global European colonialism, 1650-1945? Give me a fucking break. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!

Oh yeah that's right I forgot. You civilised all those darky savages. Brought them cricket! Where would they be without you? Now just remind me again, when did all these wonderful things happen? Was that before or after you turned them into slaves, stole their lands, killed them, gave them disease, committed acts of genocide, and drew little borders all over their ancestral lands wherever it suited you, and then fucked off?

Oh and tell me this. When in the last centaury did the US start two World Wars that resulted in the deaths of over 100 million people, and attempted the systematic extermination of entire ethnic communities, (as recently as the 1990тАЩs) and, people just like YOU!

Of course how silly of me, you've all kissed and made up now. How marvellous. How big of you. Go Europa, land of hope and opportunity. Yeah right.

Give me a coke and a Big Mac any day. In comparison to European colonialism, American imperialism seems much more benign. Let's just say it leaves a better taste in the mouth.

Those bastard European imperialists. Look what they did to those proud natives in Nw Zlnd. Stopped the cannibalism. Ended the ethnic cleansing. Allowed the terrified women and children to emerge from the fortified villages. Unfortunately didn't manage to end the bands of marauding young men, but transformed them into the local equivalent of Hell's Angels. What bastards those Europeans were

This will no doubt be very popular! Wonder will Thailand have same thing?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5321114.stm

A "shop-a-smoker" hotline will be set up to ensure people comply with the smoking ban, the government says.
The government said the hotline would go live next summer when the new rules come into force in England, because the ban would be largely self-policing.

People will be able to report their colleagues as well as venues which are flouting the new rules.

But smokers' lobby group Forest said "grassing up" was not the British way and it would not get many calls.

Evidence from abroad shows smoking bans were self-policed so this is a sensible measure

Ian Willmore, of Action on Smoking and Health

Forest director Simon Clark said: "This shows how desperate the government has become. People won't use the phone line.

"Most smokers are law-abiding citizens, and I can't believe people will want to shop smokers. It is not the British way."

The government has already agreed legislation to ban smoking from all public places, including pubs and restaurants, from summer 2007.

[Up2U]

This will no doubt be very popular! Wonder will Thailand have same thing?


We can only hope.

[Surfcrest]

As an American I wish we would create a "global anti bullshit lobby" with am aim to a zero tolerance to other countries influences within our own borders.

and who would be the Captain on the Enterprise, Spok?

Surfcrest

Of course you guys aren't seriously suggesting that the role of the US in the world today is somehow just so much worse than the role of global European colonialism, 1650-1945? Give me a fucking break. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!
Give me a coke and a Big Mac any day. In comparison to European colonialism, American imperialism seems much more benign. Let's just say it leaves a better taste in the mouth.

Aunty I just wanted to take this moment to bring you up to date. I know how side tracked you get by all that is good and wonderful about New-Zealand, but last I looked, the date and year was 9.07 2006. I should think we have all, except the Americans moved on a bit since 1650. Are you suggesting we cut them a break, because they are still in the dark ages?

I don't wear anything American and I especially don't eat anything American. OK I did by eleven pairs of gap jeans on my last trip to LA, slim fit 33X32 84X81, I am not fat, I just like the slim fit style, worn loosely, they are also nicely streaked in an indigo blue wash, any-way my point is, I don't believe in waste, so will just have to wear my way through them. Besides they are made in Mexico and in Asia I have problems with leg length. Other than that and my Apple computer (erm, them at apple are democrats anyway) I have nothing American, there doesn't seem to be anything else desirable. I wouldn't eat a double Mac Crap if you paid me, and their coke is disgusting, no fizz at all.

Thanks for the tips Surferdude, No I am not confusing my description of Americans in general from the current elected admin. September the 11th took Mr Bush from being a certain mere footnote in history to having 90% approval rating across America, giving that man cart-blanche to indulge in his own personal agenda in the middle East, while his nation eagerly stood by, expecting some sort of result. The war on terror was born. One is still wondering what happened to all those weapons of mass destruction, besides the Americans dealing in them themselves. Not only did Hussein not have them but he had nothing to do with al-Qaeda either, and of course as we all know Mr bin Laden is still a free man.

Perhaps the American public should have given the mandate to try and bring the man to book for Sep11th, to someone with at least a brain, because all Bush has managed to do ironically, in the name of democracy, is to kill thousands of innocent people and liberty in his own country. Then again perhaps they couldn't find anyone with that, for America, exacting requirement.

Anyone for a cigaret?

[AMARETTO-old]

Those bastard European imperialists....

Today's rate exchange

1 USD = 37.3879 THB

1 EURO = 47.9541 THB

1 EURO = 1.28233 USD

1 USD = 0.779831 EURO

BOEING/AIRBUS INDUSTRY

[Dodger]

Cedric...

Trips to L.A....

Staying in American hotels...

Eating American food...

Smoking American Ciggaretts (I believe you referred to Marlborl Reds)...

Wearing American clothes...

Drinking American Coke (at least once based on your description)...

Operating an American computer...

and spending every day chatting to Americans on an American owned Forum...

What kind of boycott is that???

[Surfcrest]

I don't wear anything American and I especially don't eat anything American. OK I did by eleven pairs of gap jeans on my last trip to LA, slim fit 33X32 84X81, I am not fat, I just like the slim fit style, worn loosely, they are also nicely streaked in an indigo blue wash

Somehow I think you have enough mirrors to appreciate every 33 X 32 84 X 81, aren't you in love with what you see?


any-way my point is, I don't believe in waste, so will just have to wear my way through them. Besides they are made in Mexico and in Asia


By a company and is a subsiduary of?



I have problems with leg length.

Could it be bad genes / jeans?


Thanks for the tips Surferdude, No I am not confusing my description of Americans in general from the current elected admin. September the 11th took Mr Bush from being a certain mere footnote in history to having 90% approval rating across America, giving that man cart-blanche to indulge in his own personal agenda in the middle East, while his nation eagerly stood by, expecting some sort of result. The war on terror was born. One is still wondering what happened to all those weapons of mass destruction, besides the Americans dealing in them themselves. Not only did Hussein not have them but he had nothing to do with al-Qaeda either, and of course as we all know Mr bin Laden is still a free man.

And so you are saying virtually on the eve of what happened 5 years ago that a reaction was not in order?
That a handful of our own Canadian soldiers who have been killed weekly in Afghanistan were all killed for nothing?
That North Korea, Iraq and Iran should be free to pursue a weapons program unchecked?
And if any nation were to question the above three about their programs, which is the only one to make each stop
and take note?
Perhaps the result that the nation stood by eagerly awaiting was no result at all.
Like the Madrid bombings March 11, 2004, or the July 7, 2005 bombings in London and including everything before
and after and including Oklahoma.
A great deal of the world order that allows us to travel as freely and as safely as we do is as a direct result of
both America and it's allies.
As the lable queen that you are, you naturally assume that where something is made is enough to convince you
its not American.
That American financial and commercial interests stretch even to the most remote corners on the globe.


Perhaps the American public should have given the mandate to try and bring the man to book for Sep11th, to someone with at least a brain, because all Bush has managed to do ironically, in the name of democracy, is to kill thousands of innocent people and liberty in his own country. Then again perhaps they couldn't find anyone with that, for America, exacting requirement.

Anyone for a cigaret?

Bring the man to book? You lost me yet again!
Obviously Bush has just as much right to be misinformed as you!
There's a war going on.
Thousands of people die in war and this surely isn't the first.
I think you'll find that the majority that are dieing in Iraq are dieing at
the hands of.....Iraqis....not Americans.
Say what you will about Bush, his administration and his policies.
The more you say, the less informed you are sounding.
Making these personal slurs on any / all Americans is simply ignorance
and hate mongering.
I would have thought, with all these servants you mention (as much as possible)
that someone would have thought to have educated you.
You know....it's never too late!

Surfcrest

[Aunty]

Aunty I just wanted to take this moment to bring you up to date. I know how side tracked you get by all that is good and wonderful about New-Zealand, but last I looked, the date and year was 9.07 2006. I should think we have all, except the Americans moved on a bit since 1650. Are you suggesting we cut them a break, because they are still in the dark ages?

Firstly there was no 'United States of America' in 1650, Cedric, and secondly, as you well know, I was referring to a period that also includes modernity. And I would put it to you that were it not for the Europeans scoring an own goal from 1939-45, that the European Empires would still be very much with us today. Furthermore were it not for European hate there would be no 'war on terror' or clash of civilisations. Why, because there would be no Israel, millions of Jews would still be happily living in Poland, Germany and all other parts of Europe. No WWII means no Cold War. Which means no USSR invasion of Afghanistan. No Afghanistan and no Israel means no Al Qaeda. I could go on and on and on, but why bother. Kapeesh?

Whether you want to hear it or not, or even whether you even believe it or not, the US is NOT as you paint it.

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Aunty, thank you for pointing out all the failures of Europe up until 1945, in response to Cedric's criticism of the Amerian voters for voting for Bush.

Because, it is soo relevent.

Because of course, as you obviously know, Cedric is just as responsible for the actions of Europeans in the 1930's as the American voters are for the actions of Bush since 2001.

I know that the American people actually VOTED for Bush twice, whereas Cedric probably was not even born in 1945, but you and I know that he is actually responsible for everything evil Europe did since 1650 (circa).

Thank you for not letting him away with anything.

And as regards your points on how "No WWII means no Cold War..." etc.

That is of course so relevent, because the American governments since 1945 have had no possibility of independent thought, and all their mistakes since then were really the fault of what the the evil Europeans did pre-1945.

And as you know, the US overthrow of Mossadegh in 1953, the intervention in Vietnam and the US support of corrupt distators the World over since 1945 were really the fault of Bismarck and Disraeli, not Eisenhower or Johnson or Reagan, because the American government has not abilty to do anything but follow the pattern the Europeans laid down since the seventeenth century.

Figuring out who to blame for the fact that the US has not achieved energy independence (through such simple measure as making fuel efficiency mandatory) since the oil crisis of 1973 is harder though.

Some think Churchill is to blame, but personally i think the culprit is Emperor Franz Ferdinand of Austria

[Aunty]

You raise some very good points Ronan, although I somehow doubt if you realise it. And that is that we are all the beneficiaries of what happened yesterday. The world is as it is today because of its history. Therefore it serves no one well (especially the Europeans) to be pointing that finger at others and saying what nasty brown stains they have on their shorts, when their own history is so full of shit.

And what exactly is relevant. What happened last week but not last year, or the last three years but not the last 10? Or maybe itтАЩs just some figure that happens to suit you? Sorry to burst your bubble.

Anyway this forum is supposed to be about Thailand, and not anti-Americanism and European hypocrisy. So this is my last word on the subject.

[Brad the Impala]

Thank you Ronan, delightful.



Aunty, please move your analogies away from the soiled shorts area.


Moderator, please move this thread which is surely never going to return to Gay Thailand.......that's a challenge to our venerable posting community.

[rincondog]

I know that the American people actually VOTED for Bush twice,
In actuality the majority of voters did not vote for Bush in 2000. It is only by the quirk of the electoral college that he was elected President. I wonder what history would have evolved if majority actually ruled in the USA.

So this is my last word on the subject.Thank god for that. Given your general level of ignorance on history (such as the gem below) the level of factual knowledge in this Forum must surely increase
And I would put it to you that were it not for the Europeans scoring an own goal from 1939-45, that the European Empires would still be very much with us todaySo Japanese imperialism from the early 1930s onwards would not have occurred?

[Dodger]

For once everybody seems to agree on one thing...the history of mankind is just a repetitive series of war and bloodshed. Trying to find someone or some place to blame will lead you only to a state of frustration.

Stay open minded - look for the good in people (all people) - and don't get so stressed out about a person smoking a cigarette. Chances are, you'll die of a heart attack with a 20 Y/O Thai boy bouncing on your belly anyway...at least I'm hoping that's the way it works.

mai pen rai

Chances are, you'll die of a heart attack with a 20 Y/O Thai boy bouncing on your belly anyway...at least I'm hoping that's the way it worksThat's certainly my aim - a fatal coronary while chock-a-block up one boy and a second one sitting on my face

Chances are, you'll die of a heart attack with a 20 Y/O Thai boy bouncing on your belly anyway...at least I'm hoping that's the way it worksThat's certainly my aim - a fatal coronary while chock-a-block up one boy and a second one sitting on my face

Anytime soon? :cheers:

I blame:

The Turtle whose back America was built upon (unknown date)
The Sumerians for developing a system of war mongering city states 3200BC
The Cretians for inventing indoor plumbing 2000BC
The Birth of JC 1AD
The Romans for building roads (various dates)
The invention of the wheelbarrow in China 200AD
The invention of the steam engine 1698AD
The invention of the hot air balloon 1783AD
The invention of the safety pin 1849AD
The invention of instant coffee 1901AD
The invention of ecstasy tabs 1912AD
The invention of sliced bread 1928AD
The invention of the ballpoint pen 1938AD
The invention of the ethernet 1973AD
The invention of the world wide web 1990AD - without which I would not be here to dull your senses!

Basically, we can go back and pick dates, times and places in history and blame all the world's ills on such things. Or we can state that one set of people has no right to criticise another peoples actions due to their own previous misdemeanours. It's all bollocks. We look at what happens today and if someone does something which we know is wrong we can speak out no matter how many glass houses we live in.

The terrorists are wrong, Bush is wrong, Israel is wrong. I want to be a hippy and if we could all live in love and peace man, the world would be a better place. Now all join me in a chorus of 'I want to teach the world to sing, in perfect harrrmonee'.

Couldn't resist could you fatman, it's like sending a backhand down the line when your opponent is sitting in a heap on the other side, while plugged in both ends.

I think we will all just have to have a nice long slow cigaret and agree that somehow the Americans always stuff up.

Of course history teaches us a lot, but it's tomorrow that will count for all those innocent people getting killed today, it's tomorrow that will count for their survivors, and they will not forget. America is used to the blood shed being thousands of convenient miles away, until Sep the 11th that is.
Europeans have learnt to use diplomacy have learnt to try and avoid war, have learnt from each other,have never forgotten the atrocities of the past, they are the first to point out the dangers of ignoring the past. We are all grown up now.

Then along comes adolescent fucking America to fuck the world up, with as much diplomacy as a rutting Texan oil farmer.
The American people do not stand up to much scrutiny, they live in a bazaar fantasy world of their own making, laced with a backward religious fervour and trust in their right to be so totally and absolutely thick. Muslim nations are not going to suddenly cease to exist or defend themselves just because America wishes them too, Muslim nations are not going to ever suddenly embrace some wacky doodle concept of democracy just because the Americans wish them to, Muslim nations are not going to suddenly want to adopt American values just because America wants them to.

In the first instances there is nothing more galling, than Americans trying to impose their stupidity on any other nation on the planet, and secondly, trying to do so, in order to guarantee themselves a ready supply of oil, is just repulsive. And no one buys it.

Perhaps their biggest mistake is being arrogant enough to think the rest of the world is as stupid as themselves.

[Surfcrest]

Perhaps their biggest mistake is being arrogant enough to think the rest of the world is as stupid as themselves.

No clearly, this is your own mistake.

Surfcrest

Surfer-dude, are you really Canadian? I understand the Canadians to have a healthy disrespect for all things American? Obviously you are sitting on the fence, be careful dude, you will catch a surprise wedgie and fall off onto the wrong side. There is no telling what will become of you, but if your brain is damaged severely enough, no one will notice. You should be able to live a long and prosperous life amongst your neighbours, perhaps even become the next president! Awesome dudie. Suits you sir.

[wowpow]

\"bazaar fantasy\" How bizarre! sort of Patpong?

Sorry it was irrisistible

[Dodger]

Cedric states:


Surfer-dude, are you really Canadian? I understand the Canadians to have a healthy disrespect for all things American?

I have many close Canadian friends who don't seem to share that opinion. Aty least they've never shared it with me before.

Cedric, I respect your right to speak your mind freely...at least we know very clearly which side of the fence your standing on.

I'm sure you're very popular with the Hezbulah.

Please don't even bother responding to my comments, as I won't participate is this discussion any longer.

[Surfcrest]

I understand the Canadians to have a healthy disrespect for all things American?

You have yet to demonstrate an healthy understanding of anything.

Surfcrest

Anti smoking laws are GREAT.
If Thailand wants to do this, that is a Thai matter.
Nothing to do with America.
And Euros are insane with their smoking.
Euros are so mature huh?
World War 1, World War 2, started in Europe.
Actually, America is an OLD democracy.
We are going through a dark period right now due to the bush mistake, but don't think we are going away. Its not really that America is so great, its just that the rest of the world is mostly even more messed up. Stay tuned. Asia and China are big economically, but they are piss poor in CREATIVE ideas.

[Surfcrest]

World War 1, World War 2, started in Europe.
Actually, America is an OLD democracy.
We are going through a dark period right now due to the bush mistake, but don't think we are going away.
Its not really that America is so great, its just that the rest of the world is mostly even more messed up.
Stay tuned. Asia and China are big economically, but they are piss poor in CREATIVE ideas.

Oh my!

Surfcrest

(You scored a touchdown in the argument with this one Cedric)

Anti smoking laws are GREAT.
Its not really that America is so great, its just that the rest of the world is mostly even more messed up. Stay tuned. Asia and China are big economically, but they are piss poor in CREATIVE ideas.

This makes me titter, it is exactly what the Americans used to say about the Japanese during the 1980's, they are always grossly defensive when it comes to protecting their vast resource guzzling economy. Enjoy driving your Toyota suv or what ever it is you can afford to drive now, your oil supplies are on the verge of hauling you kicking and screaming into reality. I might add, China is doing a better job of acquiring allies and by extension supply lines of raw materials than American could even dream of doing again. All thanks to Mr Bush, who has single handily made sure of this. You see, no ammount of threatening, bullying and blood shed, is going to make another nation love you.

You may one day wish that copyright infringements were the only little problem the American economy faced. Untill then, pucker up and enjoy the cheap products made in China, sloshing out your front door.

We are about to correct the bush mistake in November. After that, he will be a total lame duck, and his sorry party will lose all power in 2008. I agree bush was the most damaging president in US history, but when the US takes a radical policital turn, which it is about to do, the world will take note. The US is still the top economy in the world and that isn't going to change for at least 20 to 50 years.
And you America bashers, I would guess that the vast majority of gay Yanks interested in Thailand are anti bush, and always have been, so give us a break, OK? Did you blame all Germans for Hitler? Even his German victims?

Signed, a proud pro American Yank who hates bush more than you ever can imagine. Bush does NOT equal American.

America Japan Germany and China, the top economies in the world. At the rate China has been going, your predictions are long of about thirty five years. It is estimated that the Chinese economy will be greater than that of America in about 2020 at the very latest. I would make sure that breeders now, ensured that their children have a good solid workable Mandarin or at least Cantonese, before it is too late.

It would be both good and unfortunate, if lets say Clinton becomes president, if she will manage to turn the tide of anti Americanism during her term, good on her, but I think sadly she will perhaps just be stepping stone to any possible real change down the line. And even this is not guaranteed.
In my opinion Americans need to urgently reconsider how and who they select as President. It is becoming dangerously close to being the cause of their undoing.

Im gonna park my hubbly bubbly on the beach and escape politics!

Yes, no doubt, China will be bigger.
But guess what, I don't believe many of us will need to bother to speak one of their dialects.
They are learning American English, the current international language.

Culturally, thanks to Hollywood, American culture will continue to be the most powerful cultural force in the world. And Silicon Valley isn't dead either. It is still the world center of the highest value work of technological innovation, and again, has every prospect of continuing to be so.

Now if California decides to break off from the mainland, we are in trouble ...

Also, don't bet on Clinton being the democrat who is elected either. There could be some real surpises in the works.

Yes, no doubt, China will be bigger.
But guess what, I don't believe many of us will need to bother to speak one of their dialects.
They are learning American English, the current international language.

Culturally, thanks to Hollywood, American culture will continue to be the most powerful cultural force in the world. And Silicon Valley isn't dead either. It is still the world center of the highest value work of technological innovation, and again, has every prospect of continuing to be so.

Now if California decides to break off from the mainland, we are in trouble ...

Also, don't bet on Clinton being the democrat who is elected either. There could be some real surpises in the works.

Interesting you should bring up this point, of American culture prevailing. Besides the mistaken notion of the strength of Hollywood "culture" in China this is exactly also where many American business enterprises in China fail, simply because they fail to recognise the market, as being Chinese, and particularly Chinese and proud, at the that. They also fail to see that the American way of doing business is not a globally accepted way either, but particularly in China. It is also British English that is taught in schools and universities, not American English. Culturally the Chinese will remain as loyal to China as Americans do to American culture. Perhaps you better get used to more Ang Lee, and reading sub titles instead.

America is investing more in China than China is investing in America, this is not to say that Americas rewards are going to be higher than what the Chinese will get from investing in the third world instead, far from it. It is a far sighted policy, made all the easier by the general anti-American sentiment prevailing today, that will more than guarantee them raw materials when Americas have all but run dry.

Now I am going to the beach to join Oogleman, if only the Chinese hadn't fcuked up the South China sea with the pollution of all their manic and mega endeavours, I might have been able to take a swim as well.

You miss the point.
America's culture is so powerful because it is a world culture from a diverse country.
Chinese will of course favor their native culture, but because they are so homogenous, it won't export all that well.
Sure, Chinese food and martial arts movies ...

You miss the point.
America's culture is so powerful because it is a world culture from a diverse country.
Chinese will of course favor their native culture, but because they are so homogenous, it won't export all that well.
Sure, Chinese food and martial arts movies ...
Talking about their culture, not their products (their slave labor products).
Most movies I watch have subtitles. I never said that I favor Hollywood blockbusters, but the world does.

Current betting on Democratic Candidates for the 2008 Presidential election are:

Hillary Clinton 4/5
Bill Richardson 4
John Edwards 6
Al Gore 8
Russ Feingold 12
Tom Daschle 16
Tom Vilsack 16
John Kerry 16
Barack Obama 25
Wesley Clark 50

I agree with Thaiquila, I wouldn't count Hillary as odds on to win (despite the above betting odds). I wouldn't be surprised at an Al Gore (Pres) Hillary Clinton (Vice Pres) ticket though. Thoughts?

Although Sen John McCain is the odds on fave for the Republican nomination, I wouldn't rule out Rudi Guiliani or even Condi' Rice (outside bet) as potential candidates.

As for America retaining it's place as the world's number one economic power, it aint going to happen. Further, culturally America does have it's foot in the door of all/most countries in the world. But look at what Thai guys watch on tv, asian soaps, Thai game shows, Isan music vids and football (soccer). So the cultural output may have been influenced by America, but the product is definitely asian. Same same for India and China and it's noteworthy that India's film industry product is actually viewed by billions more people than the product Hollywood puts out. No single country has achieved global domination and no single country ever will. America will remain more influential than the likes of previous empires (Italy, France, Britain) but it's cultural and economic influence will, without doubt, continue to decline.

You miss the point.
America's culture is so powerful because it is a world culture from a diverse country.
Chinese will of course favor their native culture, but because they are so homogenous, it won't export all that well.
Sure, Chinese food and martial arts movies ...
Talking about their culture, not their products (their slave labor products).
Most movies I watch have subtitles. I never said that I favor Hollywood blockbusters, but the world does.

I think you may be pushing it to call China homogenous, even though China and America are almost exactly the same size (China perhaps just a few 100 square klm larger) China unlike America is made up of approximately 56 ethnic groups, you could see it more as like an entire Europe and then some more.
But I would say it is possible that Putonghua could become the dominant business language in Asia, in time, perhaps in the world, who knows, English spread from a tiny slimy Island in the filthy North-sea, so anything is possible. We could see a new world order. Rather exciting, don't you think?

No, it sucks. Who wants to lose their empire?
I agree with basic premise that the US empire is in decline.
I will admit y'all might be right that it could be quicker than I think.
But I still don't see English losing its prominence.
Chinese languages aren't Roman letter languages, no way they will spread.

You might just live to eat those words, aw shucks i want hillary, i want hillary

[Aunty]

If the Americans stop buying China's shoes and handbags, China is fucked. All you geniuses with the typewriter in front of you do understand that I trust?

Not quite Aunty, there looms a large and ever growing domestic market, much larger by far, at least four times the size of America's present domestic market, which is more or less still America's saviour. That and the European market and the rest of the world, should see those handbags selling like hot cakes, even if the Americans decide to have their own handbags manufactured elsewhere, that is besides in China.
Anyway with 8000 000 000 us dollars reserve, I am sure the Chinese could organise a little sell off, the euro is looking very cosy these days, there are even serious discussions for oil to be traded in Euros instead of dollars...I shudder to think what uncle Sam would do to try and stop that.
Attack Paris, convincing the folks back home of a stock pile of deadly croissants of mass indigestion?

[Aunty]

Not quite Aunty, there looms a large and ever growing domestic market, much larger by far, at least four times the size of America's present domestic market, which is more or less still America's saviour.

1. What causes this domestic market to grow? The USA

2. Where, and from who, does this market get it's money from? The USA

3. Most Chinese cannot afford to buy the cheap products they manufacture for the US domestic market. How then, according to you, will these consumers be 'America's saviour'? And,

4. The US has long since stopped manufacturing it's own clothes, shoes and handbags. The goods and services the US manufactures are typically high end knowledge based products, and carry a price tag to match. Many of these products cost more than the average China man or women earns in a year. Again how can this consumer be the saviour of the US (your claim) when clearly they don't have the money to buy America's major products?

5. What evidence do you have that the US economy is in decline?

[rincondog]

Unfortunately Cedric's posts have turned out to be nothing more than rants. Evidently he is reading a lot of anti-american writings and digesting them for regurcitation. He then puts his tirade on the forum. He is merely the typical boring, ranting, windbag who believes he knows it all. You are a BORE give it up. I bet the Thai boys can't wait to get away from you. Another self-obsessed loser.

[Surfcrest]

Evidently he is reading a lot of anti-american writings and digesting them for regurcitation.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything legitimately written to support what either Cedric or Thaiquila write.
Sounds as scientific as the babble I hear between English teachers at the Babylon.(hence the reason for it's name)
Yes girls, the handbag and shoe industry is a force to be reckoned with.

Surfcrest

Oh yes you got me ladies, right between the eyes OUCH! with your nasty cheap knock off "leather" accessories made in China. I read, yes it's true, I read, well spotted. I read everything I can, including the National Enquirer!
I can even tell you where those wicked teachers hanging around Babylon might be living. The Blooms Residence, where they will be paying 175$ a month rental and would have had a full view of the ever changing face of the now infamous John mark karr, who was undergoing sex change therapy at Pratunam polyclinic in march of this year. OUCH!
You got me again OUCH!, I read it for Christ's sake, Ouch! It must be true! Now leave my head alone, I am finding this "kinda" sexy.
Now to the boring bit.

Aunty may I politely suggest you take out a subscription on that nasty rag "The Economist", it might clear up a few of your questions. It's boring as shit and they supported Bush right up until public opinion made this a gross act of indecency, but it has a few good writers left, and that makes it still worthwhile reading.
Yes the American economy is slowing down. No, China's domestic market is not going to be America's saviour, but rather America's domestic market has always been America's saviour, and so will China's domestic market be for China. My apologies for my grammar and any confusion this might have left you in. And now I am off to test my new tennis racket with which I hope to thrash my rather short but plucky French opponent.

Kind Regards

Cedric

[Aunty]

Well I've just been to the US Dept. of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis' website to look at the GDP figures for the US over the last several years. And these are them. (Shame I can't do the same for China, but then why would I be able to? China at she presently is, is a long way from the openness of America or the first world for that matter)

Real Gross Domestic Product: Percent Change from Preceding Year

1990 1.9%
1991 -0.2%
1992 3.3%
1993 2.7%
1994 4.0%
1995 2.5%
1996 3.7%
1997 4.5%
1998 4.2%
1999 4.5%
2000 3.7%
2001 0.8%
2002 1.6%
2003 2.5%
2004 3.9%
2005 3.2%

And I've also looked at the figures for the last two quarters for the current fiscal year and both are in positive territory (5.6 and 2.9% respectively). These figures show that there is no evidence that the US economy is in decline as you claim. Although the figures do fluctuate from year to year, the GDP of all countries ebb and flow as there economies are inherently cyclical in nature. Nevertheless since 1990 the US economy has grown by a staggering 46.8%, that means it's almost half as big again as it was in 1990, and it was already the massive colossus then! The US population hasn't doubled since then so this suggests that there continues to be massive productivity gains by the American worker.

No I'm sorry Cedric but your attempt to claim that the US is in some sort of long term decay/ decline/ collapse is simply not born out by the data.

There are very weak growth rates compared to countries like India and Brazil. It is absurd to conclude anything as grand as an impression of the decline or lack of decline of the American empire either way from your narrow statistics.

[Aunty]

There are very weak growth rates compared to countries like India and Brazil. It is absurd to conclude anything as grand as an impression of the decline or lack of decline of the American empire either way from your narrow statistics.

I disagree Thaiquila. You have to understand that while the growth rates of countries like India, China and Brazil are much larger than the US e.g. 10% vs. 4%, with respect to the economy of the US these economies are small, so although they have very large percentage increases in GDP, the actual increase in the value of their economies is not as large as that number implies. For example a 2% increase in the US economy may possibly equal a 15% increase in the Brazilian economy. And don't forget, the Japanese economy remains the world's second largest (even after many years of stagnation) and still remains number two in spite of the spectacular GDP growth rates of India and China during this period of Japanese stagnation.

I think you are confusing a supposed American moral, geopolitical decline with an economic one. They're not the same thing, and who's to really say the US is in a moral or geopolitical decline anyway. It's just not possible to make such statements with any sort of authority or reliability that stands up to scrutiny, but I'm sure it won't stop you from trying. Such claims come down to a matter of opinion - how long is a piece of string, however long that is.

Some points:

massive outsourcing of US jobs
competing powers China and India much hungrier for power
in an unwinnable "war" against Islamic fanatics, draining our wealth down an endless rathole, remember the Soviet Union spent itself into nonexistance
population fatter than ever, older than ever
US unable to take care of the basics for its citizens, 45 million without access to health care
US no longer a manufacturing power
declining education levels, need to import brain power
no control of US borders, 20 million illegal aliens
weak dollar
massive historically huge budget deficits
Hatred of US abroad arguably as severe as it has been since the beginning of the American empire
world history showing empires always decline and fall
total dependence on foreign oil, no plan to change that, oil powers have us by the balls (in fact, the US funds its enemies directly with oil money)
non US world wising up to America's vulnerability and blatant hypocrisy
dollar losing its world currency reserve power
Portugal was once an empire

No signs of decline, huh? Are you blind???!!!!

To me, the decline is totally clear and obvious. I still think there is a fair chance it might be gradual and take 20 to 50 years. However, events such as nuclear attack or an organized economic attack could make it happen much more quickly.

Well said Thaiquila, yes aunty the American economy it's self is slowing down. It is quite a complex debate but economist are unanimous that there is indeed a down turn. Your stats are as Thaiquila points out too narrow by far, especially if you take into account America's budget deficit. They choose to ignore this at their own peril. It could be a mistake, though ever confident as they are, it might very well knock em sideways.
But as well as the things Thaiquila points out, you have the classic symptoms, interest rates are rising, property prices are softening, jobs are not being created at an impressive enough rate for the economy to be considered a growing one etc.

The poor dogs are starving and I have a dinner date, so I better at least shower in case my date mistakes me for Euro trash and then feed and hug those puppies.

Chiao!

I suppose I largely agree with Cedric, but being American, I am pro American and hope the American people can take steps to slow down the decline and lessen the human pain coming both to Americans and the world. I would always rather see America the top world power rather than China or India or Germany. Can't always get what we want.

"I would always rather see America the top world power rather than China or India or Germany" Thaiquila.

It always amazes me that anyone wants to be no.1 in terms of being the world's economic superpower. With that title comes arrogance, selfishness, distain for others and the overwhelming feeling that you are better than peoples from other countries (Many Britons still hold on to this view of others despite their decline). There is also the fact that you are almost universally hated and despised by those you 'lord it over'. Look at the Roman Empire, The British Empire, The Nazi's - all strove to be the number one power in the world, all were hated and eventually all fell. Historically no empire/superpower lasts forever and eventuallly they all fall.

Wouldn't it be better to strive to be a happy nation rather than the number one economic and military nation. The peoples of countries like Denmark, Iceland, Sweden etc, enjoy a better quality of life than most people in America through the provision of a decent health care system, good paying jobs and the encouragement of societal happiness. There is no desire to rule the world or impose one's own opinions on others. The latest set of stat's on countries considered to fill the above requirements ranks countries as follows:

Top 20 Countries:
1 Denmark
2 Switzerland
3 Austria
4 Iceland
5 Bahamas
6 Finland
7 Sweden
8 Bhutan (Southern Asia, between China and India)
9 Brunei Darussalam (Better known as Brunei), Southeastern Asia, bordering the South China Sea and Malaysia)
10 Canada
11 Ireland
12 Luxemborg
13 Costa Rica
14 Malta
15 Netherlands
16 Aintuga & Barbuba
17 Malayasia
18 New Zealand
19 Norway
20 Seychelles (archipelago in the Indian Ocean, northeast of Madagascar)

Fatman, I agree with your perspective but you missed my point, or rather, I didn't make it well.
We live in the real world and humans have proven to be violent animals. This isn't changing. It seems one or some countries always have emerged as world powers and this does effect the rest of the world. I am only saying I would choose a world with the US being the top power rather than China or India, whether I was American or not. If I could choose any country for this "honor" I would choose Costa Rica ...