Life in Thailand - Test Results

[Dodger]

I started planning/preparing for retirement 5 years prior to that magic date to make sure I had all bases covered and now find myself extremely grateful that I dedicated the amount of time that I did. Working in my favor was the fact that I knew without question that Thailand was the place I wanted to retire and after spending nearly two decades of routine holidays in Thailand I had all the information I needed for retirement planning purposes.

Similar to what most people do - my panning included; long-term financial considerations, health & safety considerations, logistics (where to live based on the lifestyle I wanted for myself after retirement), transportation needs, bank account(s), health insurance, visa maintenance, living arrangements (buy versus rent), and of course risk management as it pertains to all of these things.

I spent 5 years planning, and have now completed 5 years of living here full-time which I’ll refer to as the “test phase”. Fortunately, due to a lot of planning and a good tail wind, I’m happy to say that overall things have worked out remarkably well with no regrets.

My love affair with Thailand spans a little over two decades now with no signs of slowing and I still, as I’ve been saying all these years, contend that there’s no better place on earth for a gay man to hang his hat than Thailand. The cost-of-living is one of the lowest in the modern world…good health care…lots of sun…lots of skin…lots of boys and boy bars…plenty of places to take exotic side-trips, and, most importantly, the opportunity for the like-minded to enjoy sexual relations and romance with guys, who, before experiencing Thailand, only existed in your dreams.

One thing I’ve learned is that there’s a significant difference between coming here as a routine sex tourist for holidays and living here full-time. This is something I considered during the planning phase once I determined the type of lifestyle I wanted after retirement. I wasn’t interested in “going native” and living out in some remote jungle village (been there–done that), nor did I want to remain a bar-runner/boy chaser bouncing around from one penis to the next any more (been there-done that too). The vision of how I saw myself living after retirement became crystal clear to me after a while.

I chose the “Little House on the Prairie” lifestyle to force myself to focus more on health than I did before…small town (Bang Saray) on the sea…sidewalks roll-up at 10:00 PM…clear skies (and water)…and nothing but the sounds of the oceans waves and birds chirping at night…but also close enough to the gay scene in Pattaya when so inclined, etc. The perfect choice for me. Admittedly, having a terrific partner like Jai makes this all work. He’s a dream (literally) and I’m so fortunate to have hooked up with him.

My visits to the bar scene are rare, and when I do visit it’s mainly to rub elbows with friends - pinch a few cute butts - and just enjoy the camaraderie. Other than that, the best of anything I can experience is waiting for me back at home. This is probably the most pronounced difference between “tourist” and “resident”. When you live here year-round “time” is not a concern…and I think a lot of expats realize this shortly after they retire. There’s no more counting down the days on the calendar for that dreaded departure date – when paradise comes to an end and reality takes its place.

It’s also common for expats to have their own cadre of regular boys they spend time with who they can just call on the phone when in the mood, and/or have live-in Thai boyfriends, versus having to rely on the bars or apps. The best example of this is when you go to gay scene like Jomtien Complex and see the majority of expats more interested in just socializing than they are boy-chasing. In short, boy-chasing is for the tourists. Expats don’t have to chase.

Pitfalls to Avoid:

- Don’t plan anything until you can actually visualize the lifestyle you want after retirement
- Never implement the plan until you’re sure you meet the financial income requirements.
- Don’t ignore the aging factor as your needs will inevitably change with time.
- Forget living in the boonies. You’re an old gay man from the West – not Tarzan.
- Obtain a good Thai health insurance policy before age 70 if possible.
- Don’t squander all of your hard-earned money on #14. Just tip for sex and be done with it.
- And, as my old friend Carolina Jim would say, “Never fall in love with a whore”.


Mai pen rai

[bkkmfj2648]

Great synopsis Dodger,

I would say that your expatriation into Thailand success is a model to us to aspire towards.

I am 18 months into my new expat life here in Thailand (Jomtien) and I only prepared 2 years prior for my retirement and move to Thailand.

Some general comments and observations:

1.) What is really needed is a how-to-retire successfully blog for Thailand with a specific section for Pattaya. The Supertown web page has a blog section but it has not been updated since June 2023 https://gaysupertown.blogspot.com/ it would be great if there could be a sub-blog section within this blog for retirement and which discusses how to become a successful expat in Thailand.

2.) What is missing is a type of "Welcome Wagon" system https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/welcome-wagon that would be for the newcomers to meet with the already existing expats who live here - to help integrate into their new expat daily life and to make some new friends. Once a month would probably be a good idea. Many of the expat heterosexual groups here in Pattaya have these in place (PCEC, PEC, Buzzin Pattaya bar crawl, etc.) and they seem to function very well - as they make the newbies to Pattaya feel welcome and accelerate the process to find like minded friends.

--> many times some of the visiting forum members have requested for a meetup but it seems that it is difficult to find the right time and/or meeting place for many of us to agree to meet

After 18 months here, I see that it is fairly easy to make Thai friends but very difficult to make farang friends who have common interests. I have been invited to hang out with some farangs - but there was more often than not a BIG emphasis on drinking and staying out late - which unfortunately I am not really into. So, I still try to find farangs that don't put so much pressure on having to drink and to do things outside of the bars.
Unfortunately, after a while, the Jomtien Supertown Complex mantra of "farang sit and farang drink" gets real boring because the minute that I sit down I become lethargic and then add alcohol into the mix and I become sleepy and bored. If only there was a place in the Supertown complex where we could stand up and dance before midnight to classics from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2,000s.
I have been taken to the weekly Bingo on Wednesdays - but I find it really boring - so hopefully somebody will invent something more exciting to do in the Supertown complex then the current "farang sit and farang drink" business model.

I would be interested to hear what others think ?

[latintopxxx]

I've really enjoyed reading both these posts...thank you

[Oliver2]

Thanks guys, fascinating.

I was contemplating relocation in 2004. Everything had fallen into place for such a move- the death of my remaining parent, the strength of the pound and, most of all, after nine years of happily playing the field without wanting a relationship, I'd suddenly fallen in love.

i didn't move due to cultural and political reasons. However, today, as I post from Jomtien after an enjoyable stay in Samui and looking forward to dinner tonight with my partner of twenty years, I am aware that, a week from now, I'll be packing for my return home,

And I really, truly and honestly question my decision.

[latintopxxx]

it doesnt have to be a permanent decision...Ive met many who rent out their houses back in their home countries so they always have a place to go back to should the situation change

[Armando]

Excellent post by Dodger with essential tips there for many of us. I have never visited Bang Saray but it does sound like an ideal place for retirement provided one has transport (never driven a motorcycle) and a long-term partner. For the rest of us I guess the question is Pattaya or Bangkok. I used to love Chiang Mai but the gay scene in general has gone massively downhill in the last decade I have ruled it out. Obviously I exclude the apps which I would everywhere. If you like to meet up with guys you have never seen before and who may or may not look like their photos/profiles, they're fine. But like some posters, I like to see who I am going to spend some time with. So the bars for me are important.

But I moved to Thailand only in part for the boys - the Thai boys of whom like others I have fond memories stretching back many years. I did not want Lao, Vietnamese or Cambodian boys, even though I know many can be great. And increasingly this seems to mean the apps. A gay scene and a more lilberal lifestyle was only a part of the reason for moving. I have other interests, like sight-seeing, local culture, concerts both pop and classical, meeting like-minded guys who might become friends, occasional travel to learn more about neighbouring countries - and so on. I found Pattaya just did not work for me. Yes, I like a nice beach but I prefer many others in Thailand to those in and near Pattaya and I don't have to live by one.

So I selected Bangkok. Finding a condo iin a quiet area was difficult but with help I found a nice affordable one. Being based in Bangkok gives me much of what I want and I enjoy it. It's not perfect, but where is? Perhaps Dodger put it best, "One thing I’ve learned is that there’s a significant difference between coming here as a routine sex tourist for holidays and living here full-time." How very true!

[Dodger]

........After 18 months here, I see that it is fairly easy to make Thai friends but very difficult to make farang friends who have common interests......

I guess a lot of this hinges on what your common interests are.

Believe me, you're not alone in this category as one of the biggest complaints I hear from some (not all) expats is that they're bored-to-death in the daytime. And most of the expats I know don't have a large cadre of expats friends either. Most of their social interactions with other expats either happen around the bars at night - or sometimes early morning breakfast chats with a few other expats they know. That's about it.

That said, visiting the gay scene at night seems like a great way to start some new friendships regardless if you drink or not - seeing as the majority of expats you see on the scene are there for the very same reason, i.e. social interactions and building new friendships.

Also, using this forum as a way to generate some common interests among other members isn't a bad idea either. Just because the last "Meet & Greet" didn't work out doesn't mean it won't work in the future. We had a Sawatdee Meet & Greet arranged years ago at the original Memories Cafe/Sunee and a handful of members showed up, but not until after we moved the meeting date around a dozen times. The owners of Memories (Jack, Ralph & Oud) told me later that night that if they would have laid out free food and hung up balloons the place would have been packed...555.

On a personal note, for me, having a partner certainly takes the edge off the need for having social interactions with others. I still enjoy (and need) those interactions so don't get me wrong, but we do everything together...enjoy our own individual hobbies which fills most hours in the day... have each other to share with...reflect with...joke with...share meals with...debate with...laugh with...enjoy sex with...and love with. Ironically, we first met on GayRomeo and in both of our profiles we had posted "Looking for Friends" as our interest. Funny with how that fits with the conversation we're having now.

Your suggestion about there being some sort of "Welcoming" process for new gay expats is an excellent one.

My wheels are turning.

[arsenal]

A Pattaya expat walks into a bar. He sits down and orders a bottle of the hard stuff. Soon a few of the bar boys join him. They play on their phones, as does he. He pays the bin, tips them and goes home.

The next night he does the same thing.

He does this night after night until he either has no money left or no liver.

Dodgers success is very much the minority result for full time expats.

[Armando]

Around 25 years ago on a visit to Bangkok, friends took me to one of the regular meetings of the Long Yang Club. Basically for expats and Thais who enjoyed the company of expats, I seem to remember it was held in a house very close of the Malaysia Hotel. It was if I again recall correctly just a social gathering with drinks, small eats and lots of chat. Ratio of expats to Thais seemed to be around 2 to 1. It seems the Bangkok Club ceased operating quite some time ago. I think that's a pity because it was an ideal place to gather and get to know people who might become friends. Living in Thailand I try not to become cocooned in an expat ghetto.

I know there were similarly named clubs in various parts of the world. Anyone know if they still exist?

[Oliver2]

I note Arsenal's posting and suspect that he'hit the nail on the head.Perhaps the key to Dodger's success is that he was in a ltr before becoming an expat.

[Dodger]

I note Arsenal's posting and suspect that he 'hit the nail on the head. Perhaps the key to Dodger's success is that he was in a ltr before becoming an expat.

I think Arsenal hit the nail on the head as well.

One of the many things I love about Thailand is that we have the options.

[arsenal]

Ltr not so important, the number of unfortunate balcony deaths demonstrates that.

I think it's all to do with the individuals mindset. For a start say godbye to the excitement and thrill of Pattaya as experienced by myself and say Gerefan or Latin. The adult Disneyland will lose its sparkle and if you're not very careful become a source of constant irritation.

Myself, I think a happy retirement involves doing lots and lots of little things. A rolling buffet if you will of things you do on an ad hoc basis when the mood takes you.

[scottish-guy]

“Expats” = Immigrants

[christianpfc]

After 18 months here, I see that it is fairly easy to make Thai friends but very difficult to make farang friends who have common interests.
We might have a different idea what constitutes as "friend", but I have few to no Thai friends, but many Farang friends. Most of them gay, but many not on the forums. I have just too little shared interests with Thais to go beyond fun and fringe activities.

[gerefan2]

I think it's all to do with the individuals mindset. For a start say godbye to the excitement and thrill of Pattaya as experienced by myself and say Gerefan or Latin. The adult Disneyland will lose its sparkle and if you're not very careful become a source of constant irritation.

you.

You are quite right Arsenal, Pattaya was full of excitement on my first and early visits over the last 20 years.

What one has to take into account is the fact that everything is now completely familiar and can become boring. One Gogo bar is much the same as another.

Also over that time we have all got a little older, and our interests change.

I personally find a 3 month visit over the European winter and a month in the summer are sufficient and realise when it is time to go home.

If I was thinking of living in Thailand as well as the lack of things to do during the day I could not live in a condo permanently. Not after living in a house all my life!

I would need a nice place, but that would mean living a long way from the “entertainment”.

[bkkmfj2648]

We might have a different idea what constitutes as "friend", but I have few to no Thai friends, but many Farang friends. Most of them gay, but many not on the forums. I have just too little shared interests with Thais to go beyond fun and fringe activities.

Then we are definitely living opposite lives. With my Thai friends, I have gone to:

Koh Larn x 4,
Koh Samet x 2,
Koh Chang,
Phitsanulok,
Sukhothai

Thanks to my Thai friends I have been able to participate in the volleyball events at Dongtan beach (near the Sea Rescue facility). The Thai guys that I met here were the primary reasons why I was able to travel with them to the above list of places. Furthermore, thanks to these friends I have been exposed to the Thai-on-Thai network of masseurs and escorts - which are different than the ones that we mainly see in Grindr.

Then there is my small group of Thai friends who work within the walls of Supertown - and this has been a very eye opening experience as I get to see how the Thais see us farangs who frequent the Jomtien Complex. When these guys organize small house parties - often I am the only farang in attendance.

Alternatively, my experiences with fellow farangs is almost nil as I often don't have much in common with what they want to do - in that I get bored with the "farang sit - farang drink" modus operandi.

There is so much more to do in Thailand....

[latintopxxx]

bkkmfj....care to elaborate on your comment.....whats the difference..." I have been exposed to the Thai-on-Thai network of masseurs and escorts - which are different than the ones that we mainly see in Grindr."

[Dodger]

Comparing tourists with retired expats is like comparing apples with oranges. I think it makes more sense to compare the differences between farang who retire in their home country versus choosing to retire in Thailand - because that's really where the tire meets the road.

I think any expat that lives in Thailand would agree wholeheartedly that life in Thailand beats the alternative, but what does that really mean? It's better...great...but then why do so many expats seem so bored, bitter, and depressed?

I really hate saying this because there's certainly a lot of very friendly positive - thinking expats over here - but about half of them act like they they have a piece of barbed-wire stuck up their ass. Always complaining...never a smile...pontificating...everything's wrong...they're constantly being inconvenienced by the world around them...the music's too loud...the price of eggs went up two baht...the boy who showed up at their door had a slight mustache that wasn't visible in his picture on Grindr.,,Oh My God! Why don't they just shut up once in a while and give everybody a break.

So, I guess the question is; Will you automatically have an amazing life filled with joy and happiness when you retire in Thailand? Based on everything I've seen so far you have about a 50/50 chance.

[francois]

The other night I attended a gathering of 10 farang and 4 Thais at a local bar in Pattaya. In this case most of those who were there were familiar with one another unlike the "lets get together and meet-greet". Easy to arrange, just provide some food, get a semi-commitment from the attendees and, voila, everyone had a good time.

[bkkmfj2648]

bkkmfj....care to elaborate on your comment.....whats the difference..." I have been exposed to the Thai-on-Thai network of masseurs and escorts - which are different than the ones that we mainly see in Grindr."

How I found out was as follows:
One of my Thai friends was lamenting that he did not have any customers recently.
I asked him to show me his social media profile - which was in Hornet - as he told me that is where he finds most of his Thai-on-Thai customers.
After I looked at his Hornet profile I said to him - but you need to put some words in English, Japanese, Chinese, or Korean if you want to attract foreigners as potential clients.
He replied - no - you do not understand - I only want Thai customers.
I was surprised. I asked how do you find each other in Hornet and then he showed me around 25 Hornet profiles that were Thai-on-Thai.

Then I could not resist and I said to him - but you let me be your customer sometimes - why is that? He replied, I did not meet you in Hornet I met you here on the beach at volleyball and you are a nice and fun guy so I allowed you to be an occasional customer.

But then I pushed back - but there are many more friendly farangs like me - if you would just modify your Hornet profile to some of the above mentioned foreign languages you could probably double your client base. He replied, no - it is too scary for most of us to do that as we don't know how to interface with farangs as they can be overwhelming. He said that the Thai clients already understand the Thai mentality.

So, this is how I discovered this entire Thai-on-Thai underworld.

Furthermore, it was one of their birthday's and I wanted to treat them to drinks after volleyball at my friends bar in Supertown.
Oh my GOD - what push back I go from some of the Thai volleyball guys.
They said that if they would enter into Supertown people might talk an think that they are - wait for it - escorts or host boys....
They said to me no way....

After much pleading with them and with some pushing from my other non-volleyball Thai friends - we did convince them to enter into Supertown and we had a GREAT time that night.

so, there are definitely 2 different worlds in the Thai world of how they look at and perceive things to be.....

The irony is if you meet one of the guest boys from most of the Supertown bars they generally don't have any shame to walk around with you to the other bars within the complex - but going outside of the medieval walls of the Supertown complex into the general public area - sometimes that can be a struggle.

So, you have Supertown guys who don't want to be seen with you outside of the Supertown complex walls and guys that you meet outside of the Supertown walls (i.e., like from volleyball on Jomtien beach) who dread to enter into the Supertown complex.

I find all of this amazing.

Since I want the fun of both worlds I accommodate depending on which group I am with....

thoughts?

[latintopxxx]

actually i was exoecting something else...what u describe i already know...many tourists seem to think that Thailand is so gay friendly and whore friendly and so accepting.....truth is that the easy gay hooker world a tourist inhabits is very small and the service providers are held in contempt by the middle/upper classes...thye poor tolerate it as long as its kept in the gay ghetto and as long as the money keeps flowing...

[bkkmfj2648]

actually i was exoecting something else...what u describe i already know...many tourists seem to think that Thailand is so gay friendly and whore friendly and so accepting.....truth is that the easy gay hooker world a tourist inhabits is very small and the service providers are held in contempt by the middle/upper classes...thye poor tolerate it as long as its kept in the gay ghetto and as long as the money keeps flowing...

Spot on Latintopxxx,

When I first settled here in Jomtien in September 2022, a very sexy professional Thai guy (in administration in one of the local Pattaya hospitals) asked me out on a date. He told me that he would pay for me and that he would pick me up on his motorbike outside the beach gate of my condo on the Dongtan beach road. He drove me over to the Sands Cafe at the bottom of Pratumnak. It was a nice dinner and he paid for everything.
I saw a very nice ring on his finger and I asked about it and he explained to me that it was stamped with the family emblem as he came from a Hi-So family in Bangkok.
I was still living in my temporary AirBnB in one of the View Talays - as I was still scouting with the local real estate agents to see where I would eventually call home.
My date was insistent that I consider Wongamat as the place to live for me.
I explained to him - I don't want to live so far away from all of the fun in Jomtien by being located in far away northern Pattaya. I did admit that the condos and beaches of Wongamat are stunning but with the Pattaya traffic I did not want to be isolated up there as the only gay in the midst of heterosexual-landia....
He became very upset when I insisted that I wanted to live within walking distance of Supertown in the Jomtien Complex.
He told me that he could not date me because if I would enter into the Supertown that I would be considered a Lo-So (low life type of person) and with his background he cannot date this kind of person as he needed to worry abut his family and their Hi-So lifestyle.

This was quite an eye opener for me but it goes along with what you wrote above.....

In the end, that was our last date....

God forbid we live near the medieval city of Supertown and tarnish our reputation. 555555555 hahahahaha

[Dodger]

Spot on Latintopxxx,

He became very upset when I insisted that I wanted to live within walking distance of Supertown in the Jomtien Complex.
He told me that he could not date me because if I would enter into the Supertown that I would be considered a Lo-So (low life type of person) and with his background he cannot date this kind of person as he needed to worry abut his family and their Hi-So lifestyle.


bkkmfj...I have to be honest with you...I'm having a very hard time digesting what you just said.

In all my years in Thailand I have never once heard a Thai make a statement like the one quoted above. I'm not calling you a liar, but would just like to emphasize the fact that the overwhelming majority of Thais - regardless if they're gay or srt8, would consider this type of statement to be in very poor taste, insulting, and confrontational. In short "Bad Karma".

Contrary to the opinions that you and Latin seem to share, I see gays as being widely accepted in Thai society - with little or no stigma's attached. Those working in the sex-trade industry have a different set of circumstances to work around for obvious reasons. Face-saving for the family being one of them. Regardless of how open Thai society is towards gays - prostitution is frowned upon in Buddhism big-time - but viewed by many Thais as a necessary evil especially when it deals with impoverished families.

I wonder sometimes if farang don't have the impression that all the gays in Thailand are prostitutes, when in reality gays who work in this profession represent a very small percentage of the total gay community. Maybe they should drag themselves off the bar stools in BKK and PTY sometime and visit the real Thailand.

Based on everything I've seen and experienced over the years, gays, including trans, toms, bi's, ladyboys, etc. are fully integrated and accepted in Thai society.

Regardless if you're interacting with with hi-so's, low-so's, mid-so's, or even a few soso's in Thailand, I think you'll find them all to be humble and friendly. It's just the Thai "Way". The hi-so guy you mentioned in your post would definitely be the exception.

mai pen rai

[bkkmfj2648]

Dodger wrote:
bkkmfj...I have to be honest with you...I'm having a very hard time digesting what you just said.

In all my years in Thailand I have never once heard a Thai make a statement like the one quoted above. I'm not calling you a liar, but would just like to emphasize the fact that the overwhelming majority of Thais - regardless if they're gay or srt8, would consider this type of statement to be in very poor taste, insulting, and confrontational. In short "Bad Karma".

yes, it really happened to me as I wrote it.
The guy came across as a rich Thai snob who wanted to teach me that my decisions and motivations were incorrect.

Dodger, I agree with you that 99% of the Thai people who I have met are humble and friendly.
This guy was definitely the exception.

He came into my life as quickly as he disappeared with only his message to me to not be associated with the ilk of Supertown people.....

[Oliver2]

I've travelled all over Thailand with my partner and have yet to encounter anything like this. More relevant to the discussion, P.
is acutely sensitive to perceptions, aired or merely intimated about him and, by association, me. And, of course, as a native speaker he is more likely to pick-up on such things than me.

I would add, however, that the relatively small (for want of a better description) "hi-so" segment of Thai society may well have very negative views about us. Those educated in the US or the UK, for example, who may imbibed negative feelings about us, both Thais and falang visitors. And, bluntly, such people are not ones whom we encounter on our travels.

One of the things that made me feel comfortable on my first visit nearly thirty years ago was that the falang visitors (perhaps expats too- I wouldn't have been able to distinguish between them) seemed to be, in the main, well-educated and careful in their appearance and their general behaviour, Anecdotal but that is how I remember it. Similarly, I was struck by the exemplary manners of the young guys I met on thr scene, however under-privileged their background..

I was sensitive to this issue because, hitherto for decades, my annual holidays had been enjoyed in the sort of Caribbean hotels which required a jacket for dinner. Some of what I saw in non-gay areas was rather different.

[maump]

why do so many expats seem so bored, bitter, and depressed?

I really hate saying this because there's certainly a lot of very friendly positive - thinking expats over here - but about half of them act like they they have a piece of barbed-wire stuck up their ass. Always complaining...never a smile...pontificating...everything's wrong...they're constantly being inconvenienced by the world around them...the music's too loud...the price of eggs went up two baht...the boy who showed up at their door had a slight mustache that wasn't visible in his picture on Grindr.,,Oh My God! Why don't they just shut up once in a while and give everybody a break.

So, I guess the question is; Will you automatically have an amazing life filled with joy and happiness when you retire in Thailand? Based on everything I've seen so far you have about a 50/50 chance.

There are a many many people who are generally unhappy by nature. Glass Half-full people. I know myself to be one of those and struggle against it.

I grew up in with critical parents who expected more from us kids than we delivered. I went into a career that valued critical people who found problems and fixed them, striving for "excellenc...." a condition that could never be reached. the result... me - highly critical, everything can be better.

But I have learned not to voice my opinion and to look to surround myself with happy people to keep me on the high side. I struggle the most when people ask for my opinion... how was your meal? how was the accommodation?

Retired at home - I'm bored, seeking projects to do. on vacation, I bury myself in sexual activities. what do I love about thailand (short list)? the people, the food, the accommodations.... a lot of other things are lacking (the weather). Colombia - the people/men, the weather.... Philippines the people...

where to retire? sigh, I need to keep looking and trying. did 3 months in colombia. want to try 3 months in thailand and 3 months in PH.

[Armando]

I would add, however, that the relatively small (for want of a better description) "hi-so" segment of Thai society may well have very negative views about us. Those educated in the US or the UK, for example, who may imbibed negative feelings about us, both Thais and falang visitors. And, bluntly, such people are not ones whom we encounter on our travels.
I'd have thought Thais educated in the west would in fact be more open to positive views - or at least actaully be more understanding. Just my view.

There's much discussion about hi-so and lo-so. Aren't the vast majority of Thais much more "mid-so"?

Back on topic. I've never heard any Thai express as bluntly the thoughts expressed in bkkmfj2648's post. Frankly though I have certainly heard similar feelings but expressed more in a less open manner. My impression is that most Thais just do not want to know about sexpat and tourist haunts. They know they exist but regard them as not for most Thais. As we are often told, Thais have their own gay haunts which expats and tourists know little or nothing about. Assume the same is true for the girlie bars.

[latintopxxx]

oh what nonsense, no society accepts the fact that anyone especially foreigners can visit their country and usd their youth like disposable paper plates...especially when the youth are male, thats a double humiliatiion...females are made to be fucked...the only thing that allows it to flourish is poverty and the fact that the Thai ruling classes have always treated their peasants badly..add to that the fact that the Thai wealth is concentrated amongst Chinese Thais...do you think they care about ethnic Thais from some paddy field province up norrth...thats why you find male gogo bars openly renting out males...and thats why most of us love it here.
The educated classes see the lower classes as little better than a pack animal, born to do the heavy dirty work.

[Oliver2]

I understand Amando's point of view and he's correct that those educated in the west may be more open-minded....certainly towards sexual identity. But not about commercial sex, nor about any suspicion that there is an element of exploitation at work.

By the way, straying off thread for a moment, I've noticed that Thai and Asian visitor s to Thai hotels tend to be fless friendly and more authoritarian and demanding towards staff than we are. This suspicion is encouraged by those Trip Adviser reports which identify the origin of travellers' comments.

[latintopxxx]

..no matter how western educated or how long they have lived in liberal spots like LA or San Fran...the moment they land back in Thailand their attitude becomes very much local...they know the only thing standing between them and the masses is their money and their money is linked to social relationships with other wealthy clans...the lower classes are there to be used..not to be liked or looked after...lookm what happened after a politician jumped on that badwagon...got banned & jailed...lets not mention the name..so plse stop pretending its a kond accepting all embfracing society..as long as you got cash you can do what you like ...and if you got connections its even easier..

[Dodger]

[QUOTE=latintopxxx;296271]

.......oh what nonsense, no society accepts the fact that anyone especially foreigners can visit their country and use their youth like disposable paper plates.../QUOTE][

You may be overlooking something: Not all foreigners use their youth like disposable paper plates. Only those who lack moral fiber.

The Thais know this all too well, and as a result treat decent jai dee foreigners who display good karma with an equal amount of respect and compassion. Conversely, those who treat them like disposable paper plates get cast aside after they're done USING THEM which is perfectly understandable.

What goes around comes around.

[latintopxxx]

dodger you need to get a grip on reality...lots of foreigners...i would say in the hundreds if not thousands every day enjoy the temporary company of local males before moving onto the next...i know i do when Im there...usually at least 2 a day...I'd say the number of foreigners residing in Thailand with stable local male companions is far outnumbered by the number of tourists who rent by the hour...and as for good karma..what nonsense..if if you are a salt of the earth type person who treats everyone around you kindly the moment the cash dries up you will be expelled from your rental home and the so called loyal love of your life will move onto greener pastured.....dont be fooled by all the face saving smiles the locals give you....and i reiterate what i know and that is the Thai upper classes regard the poor/peasants as nothing more than poorly paid labour that needs to be kept in their place...and that is why they dont care that anyone can fly in and use their youth like disposable single use paper plates

[latintopxxx]

..and yes dodger i have travelled quite a bit and had the opportunity to visit dozens of towns and cities and nowhere is the open availability of male companions as open and commercial as in Thailand...there are hooker bars in countries where there is lots of free lancer talent available but its not as blatant or as open...

[maump]

A fascinating discussion, hope it continues and does not get so heated that it degrades into a battle of personal insults.

In comparison, a similar poverty based class structure exist in Philippines, Laos, cambodia, Colombia, (and Brazil, dominican republic....& others) without the open gay prostitution business structure. is this a legacy of american Korea/vietnam era R&R bases? I have not seen this open (although illegal) gay prostitution system as thailand elsewhere....

In PH subic bay and Angeles City have the remains of their (hetero) prostitution businesses, but not a gay one. Colombian has a legal very active visible hetero prostitution system,..... the gay one is there but submerged, not visible.

the other countries I have no experience in. (well I was in the DR long ago).

https://co.mileroticos.com/escorts-gay/antioquia/medellin/

[cdnmatt]

In comparison, a similar poverty based class structure exist in Philippines, Laos, cambodia, Colombia, (and Brazil, dominican republic....& others) without the open gay prostitution business structure. is this a legacy of american Korea/vietnam era R&R bases?

Pretty much, plus simply tourism and religion as well. Places like Laos and Cambodia are landlocked, hence lower tourism overall, whereas Thailand has beautiful beaches and islands all over.

Philippines has a thriving sex worker scene, but is also a Catholic country hence government and society at large are less accepting of sex workers. Whereas Thailand is Buddhist hence overall more tolerant of, well.. everything, because that's just part of being Buddhist.

Then like you said, Pattaya was the R&R place for US soldiers during Vietnam. Thailand simply got addicted to all that foreign money and both, government and society at large were all too happy to alter their views and acceptance of sex workers / tourism in exchange for keeping that cash flowing, houses bing built, etc.

[dab69]

I
- And, as my old friend Carolina Jim would say, “Never fall in love with a whore”.


Mai pen rai

I flunked that but he was worth it

[maump]

Thailand drops off top 10

13406
13407

But still one of the cheapest...

13408

[Dodger]

I flunked that but he was worth it

Ditto...555

[Dodger]

.......dodger you need to get a grip on reality.

No thank you. Accepting it is challenge enough.

[Dodger]

....... if you are a salt of the earth type person who treats everyone around you kindly the moment the cash dries up you will be expelled from your rental home and the so called loyal love of your life will move onto greener pastures.

No argument there. See it all the time.

I've watched some pretty generous and jai dee farang get dragged threw the mud by their "Thai Love"...drained of every dollar they had in their account...and then left discarded (like you previously suggested) like a used paper plate. I've also watched some pretty nasty farang treating the working boys like nothing more than discardable sex objects too. I guess that door swings both ways.

Thais aren't perfect people by a long stretch and when you're submersed in the active sex scene interacting with nothing but working boys the odds of connecting with someone disingenuous are pretty high. I think I heard someone once refer to this as "reality".

I've always believed that answers to these complex dilemmas in life are always somewhere in the "Center". On one side you have farang punters who throw their pocketbooks at the working boys...shower them with expensive gifts...never say no to a request for more money...and take the bait hook-line-and sinker. The term "Walking ATM" was invented for guys like this. Then, on the other end of the spectrum, you have punters who continually abuse the working boys...emotionally, and sometimes physically as well.

I've always felt it best to just treat them the same way I want to be treated...try to use some common sense when it comes to judging their character...draw my line-in-the-sand when it comes to charitable contributions...and take it from there. The middle road. Not an easy touch - and not Darth Vader either.

[arsenal]

Reading this anyone would think the relationships people have in the west are all honey and roses. They're not, one of them is often a cunt to the other.

"I've always felt it best to just treat them the same way I want to be treated..."
The Dodge.

Yipperdeedooda. Exactly. Treat the offed boy the same as you would a waiter or a hotel clerk. Be pleasant and polite while having a fair expectation that they will perform the service you're paying for.

And at some point nip into the nearest temple and give thanks to Buddha that Pattaya exists at all.

And will someone please send Matt an atlas. Cambodia is not landlocked.

[Dodger]

.......Thailand drops off top 10

I wonder how Thailand would rank if one of the ranking criteria was OFSG (Opportunities for Sexual Gratification).

I'm saying this in jest, but seriously this is one of the main reasons people like Thailand. For gay men like us it's the top reason.

Coming in second for having the lowest cost-of-living is of course another important factor, but what good is it living cheap if you can't get a cute young native to crawl in bed with you.

I rank Thailand #1.

[Armando]

oh what nonsense, no society accepts the fact that anyone especially foreigners can visit their country and usd their youth like disposable paper plates...especially when the youth are male, thats a double humiliatiion
And that is typical latintopxxx nonsense! Describing young men and women as disposable plates because they work in the porn industry is disgraceful! We know latintopxxx's methods, his way with words and that he fucks around all and sundry - guys that is. Very few other posters are like him, fortunately, and most do not resort to such dreadful descriptions.

The sex industry in Thailand is huge but expats and foreigners see only a small fraction of it. A recent report states that it is worth USD6 billion annually (and that's probably an underestimate). It involves young ladies, young men and even, behind closed doors, underage youths of both sexes. It has little to do now with paddy fields. It involves many sectors of soceity and is about cash, plain and simple.

His basic premise is also nonsense. Given his travels no doubt he has hit on Japan a few times. Japan's sex and porn industry is estimated to be worth vastly more than Thailand's - over USD70 billion +. Porn movie sales alone contribute around 1% of the country's GDP. Much of the total revolves around clubs for older men to meet very young ladies, many of whom are schoolgirls out for extra cash and gifts, but more than a few are for older ladies to meet younger male "escorts", also out for cash. Many places do not accept foreigners, but increasingly a great many more do. Boy houses where large numbers of 18 year olds look closer to 14 can easily be found on the internet and are in every city. Teenage prostitution is rife.

The Japanese from the senior levels of government down to the lowly farmer know precisely what is going on, and virtually all tolerate it. Culturally sex and older men taking young boys under their wings are deeply ingrained in Japanese social history.

No society? Nonsense!

[mr giggles]

oh what nonsense, no society accepts the fact that anyone especially foreigners can visit their country and usd their youth like disposable paper plates ...

You may be overlooking something: Not all foreigners use their youth like disposable paper plates. Only those who lack moral fiber.


POT KETTLE BLACK :dash:

[latintopxxx]

armando what you describe in Japan is Japanese for Japanese...they would not accept foreigners flying in and fucking their young men for less than the price of a bottle of cheap whiskey...so basically you are agreeing with me
Dodger..you seem to swing from pretending that Thaialnd is all accepting to agreeing with me...all very confusing
...and yes I have travelled a lot and plan my holidays around sex, there has to be sex...and nowhere have i experienced a place where its so easy to enjoy fit local guys in such a public open way

[Armando]

armando what you describe in Japan is Japanese for Japanese...they would not accept foreigners flying in and fucking their young men
Yet more nonsense! Yes, mostly the Japanese sex scene is for Japanese - precisely as is true in Thailand. Did you not write in an earlier post -

many tourists seem to think that Thailand is so gay friendly and whore friendly and so accepting.....truth is that the easy gay hooker world a tourist inhabits is very small
But what I described is just as much for foreigners. Look at the various host bar websites in the main cities - each having actual photos of many, many dozens of young men (often several photos each), vastly more guys than any one bar has in Thailand, plus full details of price and how to pay. No bar fines. No tips. No haggling. I suppose you believe that because they have these very detailed instructions IN ENGLISH that is to assist Japanese customers! What a joke! And unlike in Thailand where you generally have to ask if you can fuck them, these sites state exactly what each boy will do. Nothing could be easier for a tourist or an expat than these host bars - certainly nothing in Thailand. And unlike in Thailand, if you book one for a certain time, they will appear at your hotel room or be ready for you in their own bar at the exact minute.

Maybe time for you to visit Japan.

[latintopxxx]

...u havent mentioned price...and yes i must visit Japan...never have..

[latintopxxx]

...and again you fail to comprehend my point...maybe its the obtuse in you...is Japan as obvious....can you saunder down a soi ....peer in through the wide open door & see dozens of fit young males on a stage on display for rent...do you see dozens of foreigners wandering around with local fot young males..is the trade in male bodies so open and blatant...do the massage boys beckon you from the shop fronts...

[latintopxxx]

...and before you do a dodger on me and get all moralistic...im not complaining...not saying bits bad or wrong...on the contrary I love it..revell in it...but am a little annoyed by the dodgers of this world who portray this alice in wonderland fake all accepting Thai world...when back in the paddy field the peasants sweat under the hot sun for a pittance with very little help from the ruling elite

[Armando]

when back in the paddy field the peasants sweat under the hot sun for a pittance with very little help from the ruling elite
There you go again! You always - always - regard those participating in the porn industry as being agressively poor with no other options. Must be that these are the only ones you see or enjoy seeing. Perhaps because you can beat their price down to the bare minimum. LOL


.is Japan as obvious....can you saunder down a soi ....peer in through the wide open door & see dozens of fit young males on a stage on display for rent
Plenty of bars open to the street. More than in Bangkok or Pattaya although obviously less so in the winter months. Use a good website to discover where since, like Thailand, the gay scene in most cities is mostly located in one or two primary areas. Rent boys, yes, although few bars have stages, Far easier and far greater selection with oftenmore revealed on the host bar websites. Go and find out before your moralising on the Japanese gay scene only being for the Japanese.

[latintopxxx]

oh ok...you have convinced me..im off to japan

[maump]

How about some links to good websites... and the price. Japan is like singapore very expensive food, hotel...... boys?

[Dodger]

...........but am a little annoyed by the dodgers of this world who portray this alice in wonderland fake all accepting Thai world...when back in the paddy field the peasants sweat under the hot sun for a pittance with very little help from the ruling elite

I'm sorry if I somehow offended you because that wasn't my intention.

I spent 7 years residing part-time in a village cut of of the jungle with the very same poor farmers that you're referring to. Quite the experience.

At the end of those 7 years I had build a two story home for my friends family, who, before the construction of the home, were living in a small wooden rice storage bin. Later I had 32 industrial-grade ceiling fans installed in the village school. I have my late father to thank for the fans. They were shipped in wooden crates from Chicago...installed by local workers from the village...and I contributed additional funding to have the school completely re-wired with new electric breaker boxes. The celebration that was held at the school following this upgrade included every single member of the village including the monks who performed their blessing.

I only return to this village once a year now around new years for a visit. You can only imagine the welcoming I receive.

I'm saying this to let you know that I'm fully aware of the fact that the needs of the poor people in Thailand are largely ignored by the upper classes. I guess I can just do whatever I want because I don't belong to any class. I'm just a person.

[Armando]

How about some links to good websites... and the price. Japan is like singapore very expensive food, hotel...... boys?
There are several reasonably good gay travel websites with some of the information you want. I'll post a few more below.

As for price, Japan is considerably less expensive now than Singapore. The Japanese ¥ has fallen in value by over 35% since pre-covid even though they now have as many, if not more, visitors than pre-covid. Today the rate stands at USD1=¥151. 5 years ago it was ¥110. 13 years ago it was ¥75.

With this being sakura season, hotel prices are artificially high for a couple of weeks. Looking at agoda, in June there are plenty of 3-star hotels in the popular Shinjuku area for between USD85 and 120. Drop a star and the price drops. But note that prices in Japan are dependent to a large extent on room area. The lower the price, the smaller the area.

Food is not expensive if you eat at the many local noodle, curry and other restaurants. Certainly a meal can cost under USD10. Also there are inexpensive convenience stores like Family Mart and 7 11 just about every corner with the usual sandwiches, noodles and a host of other items you can take back to your hotel. But if you are after more gourmet fare, the sky can be the limit unless you go for lunch when set menus tend to be a fraction of what you'd pay in the evening.

Here's a typical host bar site (sorry don't know how to get actual pics up)
13409
13410
13411
13412

[Dodger]

[QUOTE=Armando;296314]

There are several reasonably good gay travel websites with some of the information you want. I'll post a few more below./QUOTE]

Great business plan.

How much is the average short time in Japan?

[Max6969]

With this being sakura season, hotel prices are artificially high for a couple of weeks. Looking at agoda, in June there are plenty of 3-star hotels in the popular Shinjuku area for between USD85 and 120. Drop a star and the price drops. But note that prices in Japan are dependent to a large extent on room area. The lower the price, the smaller the area.

So true, i went to Tokyo 2 weeks ago ("low season" if Tokyo has one), Stayed in Shinjuku (most Hostbars are there and less Travelexpenses for the Boys.) but Prices are crazy for the tiny room you get (take easily +/-100EURO/Night). I come back to Pattaya because you get such better rooms for (seriously) 50% lower prices. Same Hotel i stayed already went 100EURO up if i wanted to book again now. But i must admit Japanese are more my type...

[latintopxxx]

armando i guess an apology is in order, always been told that Japan was kinda closed tp foreigners when it came to gay bars etc...i feel now i need to visit, even if only for a short trip combined with a trip to Thailand

[Max6969]

[QUOTE=Armando;296314]

How much is the average short time in Japan?

Sites i used (and Armando provided pics of above) ask just under 100USD for 1 Hour. (some do special deals) Dont know about Freelancers.
I feel i should say for those interested, to read the rules of the Sites.
Most do allow the Boys to refuse to Bottom even if their profile says they are a Bottom, since you are not allowed to "Damage" them.
I had around 10 boys during my week in Tokyo and only 2 would grab Lotion and a Condom to put on me.
Personally i dont mind since i prefer Oral over Anal anyway, but for those who want Anal...if you are to big, they can refuse. (just a head's up)

[Dodger]

I visited Siracha to check it out one time as a possible retirement place. Shortly after checking into the hotel I was informed by other visitors that the gogo bars (which are all girl gogo's) are mostly private membership for Japanese people only. Apparently there's a lot of Japanese in Siracha servicing the automotive plants there. I checked out of the hotel and never even stayed one night...555

I also heard from a friend who took a 2 week holiday in Tokyo primarily to check out the gay venues that the prices were over-the-top, and that the best places (with the best boys) were closed to foreigners. Go figure!

Armando...update appreciated.

[Max6969]

prices were over-the-top, and that the best places (with the best boys) were closed to foreigners. Go figure!


Personally i didnt bother going to those venue's since indeed some are "Japanese Only" from what i heard. Even bars/restaurants can be "Japanese Only".
Websites are no problem. But maybe Armando knows more ?
(I heard because their English is bad, they dont allow Non-Japanese, dont know if true)

[Keith]

If you look at the boy websites for Tokyo, you will see that prices a very reasonable. Less than London. Speaking personally I have always found plenty of attractive boys, who perform as requested!

[Armando]

How much is the average short time in Japan?
Most host bars in Tokyo seem to quote ¥15000 = USD100, although some are 13000. More expensive than Thailand but remember no off fee, in most cases no drinks and absolutely no tip. You can also pay by credit card. Not at all unreasonable in my view. You may be asked for travel money which will be quoted in advance but only if your hotel is really far away from the bar premises. Worth remembering that subway and overland rail tickets within the Tokyo area are very inexpensive - 45-50 baht.


armando i guess an apology is in order, always been told that Japan was kinda closed tp foreigners when it came to gay bars etc...i feel now i need to visit, even if only for a short trip combined with a trip to Thailand
None necessary but thanks. What you describe is very much the Japan of 20 years or more ago. I decided to take a few days in Tokyo after changing planes there several times. The first time was a little confusing but thanks to a cute Japanese I met thereafter it was pretty easy.


Personally i didnt bother going to those venue's since indeed some are "Japanese Only" from what i heard. Even bars/restaurants can be "Japanese Only". (I heard because their English is bad, they dont allow Non-Japanese, dont know if true)
It's certainly true that many bars will not permit foreigners. I believe that's for 2 reasons. 1) most bars are tiny accommodating little more than 12- 15 and most of them will be regular customers. I was also told the no foreigners rule is because the regulars may speak little or no English or other foreign language. The mamasans want to maintain harmony within the regular group. It seems few Japanese like to go bar hopping as we would in Thailand. They have one bar and stick mostly to it. 2) In many Japanese bars in addition to your requested drink you get a small snack. At first this seems very kind, until you get the bill and find you have to pay for it! Never heard of or come across restaurants being Japanese only.

On the other hand in Shinjuku ni-chome there are bars which happily welcome foreigners and larger bars open to the little streets (where snacks are not served).One of the longest established and friendliest for foreigners and Japanese who like to be with foreigners is the basement bar GB in the ni-chome gay bar district. Another is the oddly named Arty-Farty. Streetside there are several including Airro the cafe/bar. The vdo below has a Japanese and a western guy introducing various bars and other places in ni-chome, including one which now has go-go boys at the week-ends.

https://gb-tokyo.com
https://www.artyfarty.jp
https://tokyo.gaycities.com/bars/2112-aiiro-cafe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR55mcAzIy0

[Armando]

One very important thing to remember is not to get involved with the host bars for girls. These tend to be located in the seedier Kabukicho district also in Shinjuku. There sex is of much less importance than 'face', booze and cash - i.e. the boys getting as much cash out of the girls as possible. The video interviews a girl who loves being with the No. 1 host in Japan. She once paid USD110,000 in cash to the bar for a crystal magnum decanter of Louis XIII cognac. It starts with the same guy rolling up in a white sports car which a customer bought for him - about USD370,000!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuTD0z_Ji_c&t=30s

[Max6969]

It's certainly true that many bars will not permit foreigners. I believe that's for 2 reasons. 1) most bars are tiny accommodating little more than 12- 15 and most of them will be regular customers. I was also told the no foreigners rule is because the regulars may speak little or no English or other foreign language. The mamasans want to maintain harmony within the regular group. It seems few Japanese like to go bar hopping as we would in Thailand. They have one bar and stick mostly to it. 2) In many Japanese bars in addition to your requested drink you get a small snack. At first this seems very kind, until you get the bill and find you have to pay for it! Never heard of or come across restaurants being Japanese only.

On the other hand in Shinjuku ni-chome there are bars which happily welcome foreigners and larger bars open to the little streets (where snacks are not served).One of the longest established and friendliest for foreigners and Japanese who like to be with foreigners is the basement bar GB in the ni-chome gay bar district. Another is the oddly named Arty-Farty. Streetside there are several including Airro the cafe/bar. The vdo below has a Japanese and a western guy introducing various bars and other places in ni-chome, including one which now has go-go boys at the week-ends.

Thank You, i actually already follow them on Youtube, even passed them on my 1st trip to Tokyo...but was to shocked to actually say hello :rolleyes:.
Well i only heard about "Japanese Only" on occasion. I avoid restaurants in Tokyo because i dont like Tokyo's favorite sport : Standing in line to get inside any building. I preferred Fastfood or a snack from the shops. I do remember them saying some Gay Danceclubs also dont allow Tourists or people of certain looks (Plus-Size or certain Age Groups) and nothing you can do about it, just accept it. I still like Tokyo but i look forward going to Pattaya soon.

[Max6969]

One very important thing to remember is not to get involved with the host bars for girls. These tend to be located in the seedier Kabukicho district also in Shinjuku. There sex is of much less importance than 'face', booze and cash - i.e. the boys getting as much cash out of the girls as possible. The video interviews a girl who loves being with the No. 1 host in Japan. She once paid USD110,000 in cash to the bar for a crystal magnum decanter of Louis XIII cognac. It starts with the same guy rolling up in a white sports car which a customer bought for him - about USD370,000!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuTD0z_Ji_c&t=30s

This is what i though every Hostbar was...
So i suppose i can give those in Pattaya a shot afterall.... or are regular bars better ?

[Keith]

I agree with your comment about Yen15,000, more if you get the boy to come to your hotel. Also if you order more items from the online menu! Also, as you say, Shinjuku, 3-chome has quite a few foreigner friendly bars. I used King of College a lot for boys. And used their rooms, which were always clean! And you don't have to buy the boy a drink, or tip the mama-san!

[maump]

Most do allow the Boys to refuse to Bottom even if their profile says they are a Bottom, since you are not allowed to "Damage" them.
I had around 10 boys during my week in Tokyo and only 2 would grab Lotion and a Condom to put on me.
Personally i dont mind since i prefer Oral over Anal anyway, but for those who want Anal...if you are to big, they can refuse. (just a head's up)

Is the implication here 1) you are larger than they like? 2)They were generally not keen on bottoming? 3) they mounted you bareback?

I am average/thick sized (large in thailand/PH, but not colombia). and prefer to bareback my twink men.

[Dodger]

[QUOTE=Max6969;296321]

Is the implication here 1) you are larger than they like? 2)They were gerneally not keen on bottoming? 3) they mounted you bareback?

I am average/thick sized (large in thailand/PH, but not colombia). and prefer to bareback my twink men.

Just for clarification: Your post above includes a quote from Max - not from me.

[Jellybean]

Just for clarification: Your post above includes a quote from Max - not from me.

I have fixed the quote, Dodger. :)

[cdnmatt]

I thought it was common knowledge that Japanese keep foreigners at a distance? Reminds me of a story a good firned told me couple months back when he was visiting Osaka. At a computer shop discussing a flyer / specs sheet / something that was on a piece of paper in English. The shop owner would only talk in Japanese while pretending he didn't speak English, all the while pointing at various places on the English document it was obvious he could read the English without problem.

Just wasn't willing to speak English with a foreign white guy. I thought this type of attitude was common knowledge though? ANyway, doesn't surprise me at all many host bars in Japan have a no foreigner policy as that's just how the Japanese culture works, or at least that's what I've always assumed. / heard..

[Max6969]

I thought it was common knowledge that Japanese keep foreigners at a distance?
Just wasn't willing to speak English with a foreign white guy. I thought this type of attitude was common knowledge though? ANyway, doesn't surprise me at all many host bars in Japan have a no foreigner policy as that's just how the Japanese culture works, or at least that's what I've always assumed. / heard..

Thats what i heard to, but i havent experienced it before. But because of that i stick to Websites or (Now that i learned it here) stick to places i KNOW allow foreigners. The same Youtube channel says its very difficult to make Japanese Friends since they tend to stick to Japanese.

[Max6969]

Is the implication here 1) you are larger than they like? 2)They were generally not keen on bottoming? 3) they mounted you bareback?

I am average/thick sized (large in thailand/PH, but not colombia). and prefer to bareback my twink men.

"Sometimes we cannot promise to present comfortable anal play depends on the boys' health condition and the customers' dick size.
Please consent to that case, even if you are the bottom position."
This comes from 1 of the websites. Doesnt really explain why and because the English on the sites is usually not very accurate it makes it more confusing.
Again i prefer Oral so i cant speak from experience...
The sites do say Safe Sex mandatory, so no Bareback (sorry).
Thing about Japan, they dont explain why some rules are there, just that they are and if you dont like them...go someplace else. (Unlike Thailand, they dont NEED Tourists).

Oh what they do have incommon with Thailand Bars, just because a Boy is on the Website, doesnt mean they are working during your stay. They work when they want.
Usually about 1/3 of the boys i like, are actually working during my stay. My fav Boy wasnt working during my stay and they refused to contact him to ask if he had some time. (Even though they did do that last year, dont understand). Maybe why i prefer the "Danshi Gakuen" Site, they show the Schedule of the Boy 1 week in advance.

Average D-size i came across in Japan was 15CM, so if you are unsure if you are to big, you could always mention your size during contacting and ask if its a problem or not.

[latintopxxx]

armando ignited my curiosity momentarily...you guys have dampened it...seems like its far too complicated...Thailand seems to be so much more customer orientated with pricing to match...one is spoilt for choice between the host b ars, the gogo bars and the plethera of apps...not to mention randoms offnthe street/beach

[Max6969]

armando ignited my curiosity momentarily...you guys have dampened it...seems like its far too complicated...Thailand seems to be so much more customer orientated with pricing to match...one is spoilt for choice between the host b ars, the gogo bars and the plethera of apps...not to mention randoms offnthe street/beach

My apology if i dampened your curiousity. I just feel because Tokyo is more pricy, i just wanted to be honest and realistic about my own experiences.
So that nobody "wastes" their cash on something that isnt their thing. But my experience isnt the same as others. Maybe Freelancers are more easy, cant say.

[Dodger]

If you have to have a tiny dick to top a Jap (same size as his) - and he's charging you $100 U.S. (3,500 baht) for a one hour session I'd take a pass.

I'd rather have a Thai who spreads his legs and says "mmmmm...I love big cocks" as he smiles devilishly. Not only that, but if you're confined to only one hour you'd be better off staying home and jagging off.

Thailand Rocks!

[Keith]

Having a menu system, as some sites do, does make things easier. Being Japan the boys look like their pics, and perform as ordered!

It is true that the Japanese, still take the view that we are an inferior race!

[latintopxxx]

...thats the problem keith...they dont do as ordered...if they think u r too big or whatever they can refuse and as far as i gather still get paid...i do like the menu system but only if it was true...at least in Thailand I have agreed to an engagement ... if he says 'i do everything"...then its party time...otherwise i confirm activities...that he bottoms...kisses...sucks dick...kisses arse...and price...if he fails then i renegotiate...can be soooo funny...so yeah...japanese menu sounds good but only of there is a refund mechnism if he fails...and btw...when they say...oooo you too big...i reply "no you too tight"...