The Brink of War?

[cdnmatt]

Besides, looks like turkey is moving closer towards NATO anf ruther away from Russia these days anyway. Three things:

1.) Recently, allowed Zelensky to return to Ukraine from Turkey with five Azoc commanders. It previously was a prisoner swap of the Azov soldiers captured in Mariupol, and deal was those five commanders would remain in Turkey for the duation of the war, hence Turkey broke the agreement.

2.) Russia wants to pull out of the grain deal allowing safe passage of grain exports from Ukrain's ports. Turkey stepped in and said it will unilaterally enforce the deal if necessary, going against Russia.

3.) Natrually, Turkey has said it will approve Sweden's membership into NATO.

[Moses]

Besides, looks like turkey is moving closer towards NATO anf ruther away from Russia these days anyway. Three things:

1.) Recently, allowed Zelensky to return to Ukraine from Turkey with five Azoc commanders. It previously was a prisoner swap of the Azov soldiers captured in Mariupol, and deal was those five commanders would remain in Turkey for the duation of the war, hence Turkey broke the agreement.

2.) Russia wants to pull out of the grain deal allowing safe passage of grain exports from Ukrain's ports. Turkey stepped in and said it will unilaterally enforce the deal if necessary, going against Russia.

3.) Natrually, Turkey has said it will approve Sweden's membership into NATO.

It is Turkey, they know how to sit on 2 chairs at the same time.
Just hint: there will be Putin's visit to Turkey in August.

[Dragonman]

Just hint: there will be Putin's visit to Turkey in August.

That sounds ominous, except that TASS reported 5 days ago (headlined "Erdogan repeats that he expects Putin to visit Turkey in August. According to Russian presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov, there have been no new phone calls between the Russian and Turkish presidents") that (a) Putin was only "expected" to visit Turkey in August, (b) the visit is supposed to discuss the grain corridor and the Ukrainian conflict, and (c) the the lack of progress on the implementation of the Russia-UN Memorandum concerning the implementation of Russia’s demands concerning exports of its food and fertilizers, re-connecting Rosselkhozbank to SWIFT and some other matters (https://tass.com/politics/1644761).

[cdnmatt]

It is Turkey, they know how to sit on 2 chairs at the same time.
Just hint: there will be Putin's visit to Turkey in August.

Hate to break it to you, but Putin's political stick on the world stage has gotten much smaller over the past 16 months. People don't take him as seriously anymore as they would have a couple years ago.

[latintopxxx]

I wish you guys would stop discussing this as if ita a soccer competition, if informatiion gleamed from public records is to believed over 50,000 young Russian men have died, dozens of cities in the Ukraine have been pulverised killing thousands of innocents and displacing millions....all because putin wants to turn back the clock by force when he simply could have bought what he wanted with the gazzilions in oil revenue...

[Dodger]

............Putin's political stick on the world stage has gotten much smaller over the past 16 months. People don't take him as seriously anymore as they would have a couple years ago.

Totally agree in concept, with two corrections;

a) Putin's political stick has done more than just shrink over the past 16 months - it has been "miniaturized" to where he now has as much political clout as Jamaica.

b) I believe people still take him seriously. Seriously insane.

I know that there's nothing funny about this situation at all - but I can't help but imagine how Putin would react it Belarus stopped answering his phone calls and applied for NATO membership...beyond hilarious!!!...

[Dragonman]

..... when he simply could have bought what he wanted with the gazzilions in oil revenue...

Unfortunately, it was never as simple as that.

Trump offered to buy Greenland but was told in no uncertain terms that "Greenland is not for sale. Greenland is not Danish. Greenland belongs to Greenland. I strongly hope that this is not meant seriously” (Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen, during a visit to Greenland, August 2019).

The last major country to buy territories was the USA, which bought Alaska from Russia in 1867, the Philippines from Spain in 1898, and the Danish Virgin Islands in 1917. In each case, however, the native inhabitants were not consulted about the sale by the occupying power.

It is clear that Ukraine would not have sold its occupied territories for any amount of money.

Moreover, psychologists who have analyzed Putin's behavior and career believe he needs the forceful annexation of the Ukrainian territories to cement his place in Russian history (see, e.g., https://www.e-ir.info/2022/11/28/opinion-a-psychological-perspective-on-putins-war-with-ukraine/). He will undoubtedly secure his place in history - but not in the way he intended.

[arsenal]

Since WW2 ended.

Korea. USA
Hungary. Soviet
Cuba. USA
Vietnam. USA
Czechoslovakia. Soviet
Afghanistan. Soviet
Grenada. USA
Nicaragua. USA
Afghanistan. USA
Iraq. USA
Syria. Russia
Ukraine. Russia


The unspoken thing. Both sides use these wars to keep the military battle ready. Putin could have invaded Ukraine at any time, after all the supposed Nazis haven't turned suddenly up in the last 14 months. He waited until the US and its allies were knackered from 20 years of pointless warring in Afghanistan.

[Moses]

===Syria. Russia===
Bullshit: Russia is invited, not invaded to Syria. Russia is officially in Syria by invitation of ruling govt. USA is also in Syria, but it is against will of Syrian govt.

Also you forgot:
Iraq UK + EU
Falklands UK

In total there were (or still going) 68 military conflicts in 21st century on Earth.

[arsenal]

I didn't suggest all were invasions. Merely that all are armed conflicts and are used as live trainng exercises.

Urban. Check
Dessert. Check
Jungle.USA,check. Russia, try Bali or Bhutan or somewhere like that.
Sea. Check.
Air. Check.

[Moses]

Cluster bombs are banned under an international treaty (the 2010 Convention on Cluster Munitions) that prohibits the use, transfer, production and stockpiling of the weapons. The treaty cites the failure of many submunitions to explode on impact, leaving dangerous ordnance in fields and urban areas that could kill or maim people. Russia and Ukraine are among the countries who are not signatories to the treaty. But an attack of any kind that indiscriminately attacks civilians would probably be a war crime if their use was neither a military necessity nor proportional to the threat they are facing, and so against the Geneva Conventions. Moreover, based on the Geneva Conventions standard of command responsibility, the commanding General as well as anyone else in his chain of command is culpable.

Dragonman you wrote om May 2022 https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?22626-The-Brink-of-War&p=290571&viewfull=1#post290571

Do you want to comment decision of Biden to supply Ukraine with cluster munition?

Yesterday Ilon Musk:


America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs, but now we send them to be used?

No good will come of this. Fate loves irony, but hates hypocrisy.

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 15, 2023

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1680094064442740737

[Dragonman]

Dragonman you wrote om May 2022 https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?22626-The-Brink-of-War&p=290571&viewfull=1#post290571

Do you want to comment decision of Biden to supply Ukraine with cluster munition?

Yesterday Ilon Musk: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1680094064442740737

My earlier posting noted that neither Ukraine nor the Russian Federation are signatories to the treaty outlawing the use of cluster bombs. As it happens, the US has also never signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions. Moreover, Poland and Romania (two NATO members through which such munitions would likely have to transit in order to reach Ukraine) have also never signed the treaty. Therefore, no one likely to be involved in the supply, transit or future use of these weapons is bound by any specific legal prohibition against their use.

My earlier comments about the situation if these weapons, however, are used indiscriminately against civilians, rather than being used against military personnel, being indictable offenses against the Geneva Convention still apply, however.

I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report stating that "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," because I can't find such a statement. Moreover, I believe he, himself, has been accused on hypocrisy on several occasions, so his comments carry little ethical weight.

Given the number of alleged war crimes committed by the Russian Federation, its armed forces, and its government in its actions in Ukraine, Musk's comments about "Fate loves irony, but hates hypocrisy" could also apply to complaints about possible war crimes by others.

A country that illegally invades and then annexes territory of a neighbor is hardly in a legal or ethical position to complain about the behavior of other countries.

[Dragonman]

===Syria. Russia===

Falklands UK .

The Falkland Islands (also known as Malvinas) has been on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories since 1946, following the transmission by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland of information under Article 73 e of the Charter of the United Nations. Argentina does not recognise this situation but at the moment it remains the legal situation. As the Falkland Islands are legally a British overseas territory, it is impossible for the UK government to have invaded them.

[Moses]

===I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report stating that "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," because I can't find such a statement===

Psaki on White House press briefing


https://youtu.be/q5tiYwYFG4c

[Dragonman]

===I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report stating that "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," because I can't find such a statement===


Psaki on White House press briefing


https://youtu.be/q5tiYwYFG4c

I am not sure of an off-the-cuff comment at a Press Briefing fits the description of "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," but the transcript of the relevant section of this press briefing from February 28, 2022, reads:

Q. Thanks, Jen. There are reports of illegal cluster bombs and vacuum bombs being used by the Russians. If that’s true, what is the next step of this administration? And is there a red line for how much violence will be tolerated against civilians in this manner that’s illegal and potentially a war crime?

MS. PSAKI: It is — it would be. I don’t have any confirmation of that. We have seen the reports. If that were true, it would potentially be a war crime. Obviously, there are a range of international fora that would assess that. So, certainly, we would look to that to be a part of that conversation." (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2022/02/28/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-jen-psaki-february-28-2022/).

Note that the question is not about cluster bombs specifically but about vacuum and cluster bombs, so it is difficult to say with certainty what Psaki's response means in terms of international fora that would assess the matter.

Given my earlier comments about the countries concerned not being signatories to the Convention, both the question and the answer illustrate a lack of knowledge of the legalities involved, as a reading of Article 1 of the Convention on Cluster Munitions shows:

"1. Each State Party undertakes never under any circumstances to:
(a) Use cluster munitions;
(b) Develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer to anyone, directly or indirectly, cluster munitions;
(c) Assist, encourage or induce anyone to engage in any activity prohibited to a State Party under this Convention."

The key words here are "Each State Party." As neither the USA, Ukraine nor Russia, nor Poland and Romania, is a State Party to the Convention, they are not bound by its terms as non-signatory countries.

Moreover, there is no clear regulation on cluster munitions in the law of armed conflict, so the international community does not have a consensus, although there is a view that the use of such weapons against military targets is a method of combat that conforms to the law of armed conflict, also known as International Humanitarian Law.

[cdnmatt]

Russia has already littered Ukraine with cluster boms anyway, so Ukraine using them for well targetted attacks against military targets isn't going to make much of a difference on the ground.

[Dodger]

I'm against war in general and have always viewed war (all wars) as a total systemic breakdown in humanity - but, like so many other people, I realize that, unfortunately, we live on a warring planet and can only hope and pray for "World Peace" one day which frankly seems like a delusional pipe-dream.

That said, the use of cluster munitions in an attempt to rid a country from invaders who are intent on killing its people doesn't seem that far-fetched, as long as precautions are taken to quarantine the area(s) where clusters have been dropped to minimize collateral damage until after the war is over - when the unexploded cluster bomblets can be detected and removed safely.

This is the step that has been missing in history whenever a countries military uses these things. They drop them all over the place and never go back to pick them up when the fighting is over. Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos are perfect examples of this where thousands of unexploded munitions' were left scattered all over the countryside by the Americans which to-this-day are still injuring and sometimes killing innocent civilians.

It's obvious that Ukraine plans to drop cluster bombs on the front lines in the eastern regions currently under Russia's control to dislodge them - thus allowing their counter offensive (counter defensive) to make more measurable advances. Maybe the end-result of this war is to have a large swath of real-estate on Ukraine's eastern border designated as "no-mans-land" due to the danger presented by unexploded munitions. I seriously doubt that any cluster bombs will be dropped in or near Crimea.

Of course this is just a wild guess on my part - but this is similar to how Putin used cluster bombs when he invaded Georgia and we never heard any complaints from him..

[arsenal]

Watched 1917 (mesmerising) and War Horse (stunning) recently.

This war is like WW1 in miniature. The Russians are obviously never going to be able to take Ukraine and Ukraine has little chance of bresling thtough the Russian lines. All that remains is for Putin and Zelensky to accept that and they can reach a settlement.

[cdnmatt]

I'm against war in general and have always viewed war (all wars) as a total systemic breakdown in humanity - but, like so many other people, I realize that, unfortunately, we live on a warring planet and can only hope and pray for "World Peace" one day


No worries, good chance this is all just an illusion anyway. Go Google / Youtube Fermi'wa paradox, which states there's three options:

1) We're the only intellegent life form around, and our technology will eventually increase to the point where we're capable of creating life like simuated universes as real as what we're living in today. Think of it as an upgraded version of the sims. If and when we get this technology, of couse we're going to spawn thousands of simulated universes each with their own set of variables, just to test and see how things go, so we can make better decisions for us going forward.

2.) We will go distinct before reaching the technology in #1.

3.) We've already reached the technology in #1, and are currently living in a simulated universe.

Like it or not, #3 is the most probable.

[latintopxxx]

...stop fretting...once Trump wins the upcomiong election he will tell Putin to stop and it will all be over...

[Andy]

...stop fretting...once Trump wins the upcomiong election he will tell Putin to stop and it will all be over...

I'm afraid Mr. P. don't have any stop word. He'll play right till the end.

[Moses]

Small announce: Czech instructor spend month in Ukraine and tells what's going on there. So from first hand:


https://youtu.be/fceS3veihnE

[cdnmatt]

Moses, do you have any idea of how stupid you look by posting a video such as that?

Let me ask you, what's the pruprose of this war? Has Russia adanvced said purpose? What's left for Russia to do in orde for Russia to call an end to this war?

I bet you can't answer any of those questions.

[Dragonman]

Small announce: Czech instructor spend month in Ukraine and tells what's going on there. So from first hand: QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Moses;295063]Small announce: Czech instructor spend month in Ukraine and tells what's going on there. So from first hand: [/video]

An interesting video. The following information should also be noted.

1. The video was posted by Jan Šafařík, who is a professional shooting instructor and who is the Founder, Director, CEO at Zážitkové střílení v Opavě, which translates as "Experience shooting in Opava." (https://www.facebook.com/jan.safarik.94).

2. Šafařík states he was posted in Ukraine for about a month on two occasions, BUT all such training is conducted in the Czech Republic, at Libavé.

3. Libavé is a municipality and village in Olomouc District in the Olomouc Region of the Czech Republic.

4. The Czech Republic has trained about 2000 shooters for the Ukrainian armed forces so far.

5. The next training program begins at the end of this month. ""All-military and specialized training is already well established in our territory. The next cycle will start at the end of July," explained Deputy Minister of Defense Daniel Blažkovec. "Another two thousand men and women are to undergo the training, which was approved by the government and the Parliament last fall, by the end of this year." "Since last autumn, both experienced soldiers from the front and newcomers have been training at Libavé in Olomouc. In addition to the all-military training - where you learn to shoot assault rifles and drive infantry fighting vehicles - the Czech army offers training for platoon and company commanders, training with a focus on weapons of mass destruction, medical and other specialized training. (Source of my information: The Czech Republic is One of the Most Active in The Training of Ukrainian Soldiers, Jun. 19, 2023 (Source: Czech Republic Ministry of Defence; issued June 15, 2023) (https://www.defense-aerospace.com/czech-republic-details-ukrainian-military-training-effort/).

6. So, if all OFFICIAL Czech training of Ukrainian armed forces personnel is in the Czech Republic, why was Šafařík in Ukraine? Who sent him? Who was he training in Ukraine, when and where did he train them, and who paid him?

[dab69]

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-war-based-lies-wagner-183213913.html

[dab69]

This is part of Prigozhin's video, which was posted on Telegram:

"Why was the war needed? The war was needed so that a handful of scumbags could have a blast and get PR attention showing how strong the army is."

"The war was needed not in order to return Russian citizens to our bosom. And not in order to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine. It was needed for one star with additional embroidery so that one mentally sick man could look good on a coffin pillow."

[Moses]

===This is part of Prigozhin's video, which was posted on Telegram====

Since what time Prigozhin became expert for you? Since coup only?

By the way, just reminder: Prigozhin isn't adept of peace, opposite he insists in heavy strikes, including tactical nuclear weapon. So is better for you not to be his fan.

[dab69]

tactical nuclear strikes not good for you either.
Nobody is that stupid? Maybe some are

[Dragonman]

tactical nuclear strikes not good for you either.
Nobody is that stupid? Maybe some are

If the Russian forces are stupid enough to use tactical nuclear weapons again Ukraine, much of the fallout will affect their own forces. In Ukraine, the prevailing winds are from the north to the south from April to August. So, if the Russians dropped one or more nuclear weapons now (i.e., from now until the end of this month), the radioactive fallout would go south in Ukraine and engulf the Russian forces and the people in the Crimea while mainly missing the troops in the East. But for the rest of the year, the prevailing winds are from the west, so they are going to blow the radioactive fallout over the Eastern front in the Donbas which is bad for both sides. But some of that radioactive fallout is also going to end up in Russia and Moscow itself.

So, if someone - anyone - on the Russian side is stupid enough to use tactical nuclear weapons, there is a good chance that the Russians would be the most affected by their use..

[Moses]

If the Russian forces are stupid enough to use tactical nuclear weapons again Ukraine, much of the fallout will affect their own forces. In Ukraine, the prevailing winds are from the north to the south from April to August. So, if the Russians dropped one or more nuclear weapons now (i.e., from now until the end of this month), the radioactive fallout would go south in Ukraine and engulf the Russian forces and the people in the Crimea while mainly missing the troops in the East. But for the rest of the year, the prevailing winds are from the west, so they are going to blow the radioactive fallout over the Eastern front in the Donbas which is bad for both sides. But some of that radioactive fallout is also going to end up in Russia and Moscow itself.

So, if someone - anyone - on the Russian side is stupid enough to use tactical nuclear weapons, there is a good chance that the Russians would be the most affected by their use..

You should check facts , and do not trust propaganda, dear.

Chernobyl, April 26. "North to South" you said?

13189

[Dragonman]

You should check facts , and do not trust propaganda, dear.

Chernobyl, April 26. "North to South" you said?

13189

Another attempt to point score without understanding the posting?

The intent of my posting was to suggest that the Law of Unintended Consequences could affect Russian forces and civilians in the occupied territories (and perhaps further away) as much as the use of tactical nuclear weapons affected those in the target area/s.

It is true that on April 26 and 27, the winds at Chernobyl were not blowing from north to south, but from April 29th they were - which is why maps of the areas contaminated by radioactive fallout from the disaster site include the-then Soviet Union republics of Bielorussia (Belarus) and the RSFSR as far west as Moscow (see, e.g., https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/accident-management/emergency/chernobyl/environmental-consequences.html)..For example, "By the end of the summer of 1986, Moscow hospitals alone had treated about 15,000 people exposed to Chernobyl radiation. The Soviet republics of Ukraine and Belarus combined to treat about 40,000 patients in hospitals due to radiation exposure in the same period of time; in Belarus, about half were children" (https://news.mit.edu/2019/chernobyl-manual-for-survival-book-0306). I believe that the end of August is seen as the end of summer in Russia, so that means that in about 4 months at least some 55,000 people were treated for the effects of radioactive fallout in the former Soviet Union.Given that the former Soviet Union government was reluctant to acknowledge the accident or its effects, I suspect the true number to be higher.

The same could occur with fallout from tactical nuclear weapons.

[Dragonman]

Note: I acknowledge the typographical error in my previous post - the sentence should read ".. as far east as Moscow."

On 26 Apr 2020, 12:33, TASS reported "More than 1.7 million people, living in Russia, have been exposed to radiation as a result of the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster, the Russian emergencies ministry’s press service told TASS," and "In Russia, over 59,000 square meters of land, including 2 million hectares of agricultural land and about 1 million hectares of forest, were polluted with radiation. The affected territories were home to about 3 million people, 52,000 of them were resettled" (https://tass.com/russia/1149777).

[Moses]

Another attempt to point score without understanding the posting?

The intent of my posting was to suggest that the Law of Unintended Consequences could affect Russian forces and civilians in the occupied territories (and perhaps further away) as much as the use of tactical nuclear weapons affected those in the target area/s.

It is true that on April 26 and 27, the winds at Chernobyl were not blowing from north to south, but from April 29th they were - which is why maps of the areas contaminated by radioactive fallout from the disaster site include the-then Soviet Union republics of Bielorussia (Belarus) and the RSFSR as far west as Moscow (see, e.g., https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/accident-management/emergency/chernobyl/environmental-consequences.html)..For example, "By the end of the summer of 1986, Moscow hospitals alone had treated about 15,000 people exposed to Chernobyl radiation. The Soviet republics of Ukraine and Belarus combined to treat about 40,000 patients in hospitals due to radiation exposure in the same period of time; in Belarus, about half were children" (https://news.mit.edu/2019/chernobyl-manual-for-survival-book-0306). I believe that the end of August is seen as the end of summer in Russia, so that means that in about 4 months at least some 55,000 people were treated for the effects of radioactive fallout in the former Soviet Union.Given that the former Soviet Union government was reluctant to acknowledge the accident or its effects, I suspect the true number to be higher.

The same could occur with fallout from tactical nuclear weapons.

You again insist on nonsense?

Belarus is located on the north from Ukraine. How it may be contaminated by winds from "north to south" ?

[Dragonman]

You again insist on nonsense?

Belarus is located on the north from Ukraine. How it may be contaminated by winds from "north to south" ?

Perhaps because at the time of the disaster, the prevailing winds at the time of the accident were from the south and east, so much of the radiation plume traveled northwest toward Belarus? (https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/nuclear-energy/chernobyl-the-worlds-worst-nuclear-disaster). This is why contamination went as far as Sweden,, etc. If you look at "the cloud-of-radiation.jpg" you posted earlier, you will see that Belarus is clearly within the zone of contamination of the radioactive fallout from the Chernobyl disaster and, in fact, "The soil of Belarus alone absorbed two-thirds of the fall-out" (https://en.unesco.org/courier/october-2000/belarus-facing-disaster-alone).

With regard to your accusation that I post propaganda and nonsense, I could make the same comment about your postings, as you parrot Putin's claims about deNazifying a country with the fourth largest Jewish population in Europe (according to the World Jewish Congress, https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/about/communities/UA), and a Jewish President.



.

[cdnmatt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIzW8Paqvvc

Sure enough, Putin pulls out a map from the 17th century to show all of us that Ukraine didn't exist back then, so I guess in essence, that means no Ukraine should exist today? WTF?

By that logic, I'm assuming the invasion of Alaska is coming up shortly?

[Dragonman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIzW8Paqvvc

Sure enough, Putin pulls out a map from the 17th century to show all of us that Ukraine didn't exist back then, so I guess in essence, that means no Ukraine should exist today? WTF?

By that logic, I'm assuming the invasion of Alaska is coming up shortly?

If they had looked at the original, and not the fake shown in the youtube clip, they would have seen that the document actually shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine" or "Vkraine ou Pays des Cosaques (Ukraine or Country of Cossacks)." in the spelling of the time. What they looked at was a copy of a 17th century map held at the Bibliothèque Nationale de France. See https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-claims-map-proves-ukraine-not-real-despite-saying-ukraine-2023-5 and https://disinfo.detector.media/en/post/there-is-no-ukraine-on-a-copy-of-a-17th-century-french-map-it-did-not-exist-then.

Moreover, Crimea on the map is not part of Russia, and the peninsula is circled as a separate state. In the 17th century, the Crimean Khanate was located there, which lasted from 1441 to 1783.

This is just another example of Putin using the propaganda technique known as "the big lie." It is somewhat ironic that a man who started an unprovoked war to deNazify Ukraine should use a propoganda technique invented by Adolf Hitler, as the term was originally coined by Adolf Hitler in "Mein Kampf:' “The great masses of the people… will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.” It denotes where a known falsehood is stated and repeated and treated as if it is self-evidently true, in hopes of swaying the course of an argument in a direction that takes the big lie for granted rather than critically questioning it or ignoring it.

[Moses]

Let me show you place of today attack of Ukrainian drone in Moscow. I made translation on the map.

13190

[cdnmatt]

Let me show you place of today attack of Ukrainian drone in Moscow.

You invaded their country with hopes of taking the capital in 72 hours. You've killed, tortured, and raped hundreds of thousands of people. And you're pissed off that they sent a drone into Russia. You're joking, right?

Do you not realize that maybe, just maybe, Ukraine wouldn't be sending drones into Russia if Russia didn't send hundreds of thousands of armed soldiers into Ukraine? I'm just spitballing here, but just a hunch.

[Dragonman]

Let me show you place of today attack of Ukrainian drone in Moscow. I made translation on the map.

13190

The location highlighted as the place the drone hits appears to be at or near a sporting ground along the Moscow River, near School No. 1517, a prenatal maternity hospital, and a barber shop. You do not report any casualty figures, so I assume there were none.

If you are looking for sympathy for Moscovites or expressions of horror at an attack endagering innocent civilians in an unprovoked war started by Russia, consider, for example, the following incidents where people were killed in Ukraine by Russian bombing: "Ukraine war: Three dead as maternity hospital hit by Russian air strike," 10 March 2022, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60675599, or "Ukraine war: Russia destroys hospital in latest missile attack," 26 May (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65720853), or "Dozens feared dea after Russian bomb hits school in eastern Ukraine - BBC News" May 8, 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0AiRSuooIg&ab_channel=BBCNews), where "More than 60 people are now feared dead after a Russian bomb hit a school in eastern Ukraine. Around 90 people were taking shelter in the building’s basement when it came under attack. Meanwhile in Russia final preparations have been taken place in Moscow for the celebration of Victory Day, commemorating the defeat of Nazi Germany."

посеешь, и пожнёшь

[Moses]

======he following incidents where people were killed in Ukraine by Russian bombing: "Ukraine war: Three dead as maternity hospital hit by Russian air strike," 10 March 2022, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60675599, or "Ukraine war: Russia destroys hospital in latest missile attack," 26 May (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65720853), or "Dozens feared dea after Russian bomb hits school in eastern Ukraine - BBC News" May 8, 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Ai...hannel=BBCNews), where "More than 60 people are now feared dead after a Russian bomb hit a school in eastern Ukraine=====

And no one is confirmed till now.

[Dragonman]

======he following incidents where people were killed in Ukraine by Russian bombing: "Ukraine war: Three dead as maternity hospital hit by Russian air strike," 10 March 2022, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60675599, or "Ukraine war: Russia destroys hospital in latest missile attack," 26 May (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65720853), or "Dozens feared dea after Russian bomb hits school in eastern Ukraine - BBC News" May 8, 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Ai...hannel=BBCNews), where "More than 60 people are now feared dead after a Russian bomb hit a school in eastern Ukraine=====

And no one is confirmed till now.

Obviously you misread the posting as the post clearly stated "Ukraine war: Three dead as maternity hospital hit by Russian air strike."

News outlets rarely follow up with news of the fate of the missing, or with the final death toll from such attacks as the wounded may die days, weeks or months later. Further confirmed deaths from Russian attacks on Ukrainian schools and hospitals, however, are:

1. “Bombing of school in Ukraine kills two, dozens more feared dead, governor says” Reuters, May 8, 20227:46 PM GMT+8. “"The fire was extinguished after nearly four hours, then the rubble was cleared, and, unfortunately, the bodies of two people were found," Gaidai wrote on wrote in a post on the Telegram messaging app. "Sixty people were likely to have died under the rubble of buildings.” (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/bombing-school-ukrainian-town-kills-two-60-more-under-debris-governor-2022-05-08/).

2. “Multiple people were killed and injured in a Russian strike on a high school in the Kyiv region, the regional military administration said Wednesday morning.… Three people died, two were injured and one was rescued, according to the State Emergency Service (DSNS), which added that four people were probably still under the rubble. The strike reportedly hit a high school in Rjychtchiv, a town about 80 kilometres south of the Ukrainian capital Kyiv. (https://www.euronews.com/2023/03/22/deaths-after-russian-drone-strike-in-kyiv-region).

3. "Three killed as Russian strikes destroy school in Kramatorsk, say reports. Ukraine claims at least 1,888 schools and nurseries destroyed in war” (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/22/russia-strikes-school-kramatorsky-donetsk-ukraine-reports).

4. "Russian Missile Strike Hits Ukrainian Hospital: “The attack on a medical center in the central city of Dnipro killed at least two people, left three more missing and injured at least 30, Ukrainian officials said. It destroyed a three-story building and damaged several others.May 26, 2023 (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/26/world/europe/russia-ukraine-hospital-missile.html). See also “Ukraine war: Russia destroys hospital in latest missile attack” (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65720853).

But you think that an attack on a sports field is somewho worth comment??

[cdnmatt]

Moses, you do realize you're trying to rephrase this as though Ukraine are the aggressors in this situation, right?

Remember, Russia invaded Ukraine.

[Dodger]

First the Luna-25 spacecraft (10 years in the planning) spins out of control and crashes on the moon, and then Prigozhin's airplane spins out of control and crashes on Earth after just 3 months of planning. All of this on the heels of Putin's plans to overtake Ukraine (and of course the Nazi's) which started spinning out of control almost immediately.

It seems like somebody better plan their "spins" a little better.

[Moses]

==== and then Prigozhin's airplane spins out of control and crashes on Earth ====

Here too much reactions from state agencies, after that accident. That says me, what probably there was no Prigozhin on board of this aircraft. 2 Prigozhin's aircrafts started at the same time from the same place, one of them crashed. I suppose one of them was with died bodies on board and death of Prigozhin is forged for to give him chance to hide is shadows.

[Dragonman]

==== and then Prigozhin's airplane spins out of control and crashes on Earth ====

Here too much reactions from state agencies, after that accident. That says me, what probably there was no Prigozhin on board of this aircraft. 2 Prigozhin's aircrafts started at the same time from the same place, one of them crashed. I suppose one of them was with died bodies on board and death of Prigozhin is forged for to give him chance to hide is shadows.

Given that there are both reports that two aircraft left at the same time and that "Keir Giles, a Russia expert with the international affairs think tank Chatham House, had urged caution about reports of Prigozhin’s death. He said “multiple individuals have changed their name to Yevgeniy Prigozhin, as part of his efforts to obfuscate his travels” (e.g., https://apnews.com/article/russia-wagner-prigozhin-jet-crash-a7859e4e57f2efa2547dfbe5bdbaa1b2), on this issue I suspect Moses may be correct.

[Dodger]

There's no doubt that U.S. and British Intelligence (among others) have been tracking all of Prigozhin's movements - including the minute he stepped onto the plane headed towards St. Petersburg and ending when the plane hit the ground.

The West isn't about to disclose its sources (or methods) of obtaining this information and seem content to just say that they believe Prigozhin is quite dead. I tend to believe this.

[Dragonman]

There's no doubt that U.S. and British Intelligence (among others) have been tracking all of Prigozhin's movements - including the minute he stepped onto the plane headed towards St. Petersburg and ending when the plane hit the ground.

The West isn't about to disclose its sources (or methods) of obtaining this information and seem content to just say that they believe Prigozhin is quite dead. I tend to believe this.

As of the time I post this, there are no reports that either the Wagner Group or the Russian government have confirmed Prigozhin's death. Dimitry Utkin, the neo-Nazi other founder of the Wagner Group was also reported as one of the plane's passengers, so the Wagner Group has effectively been decapitated. Given the number of Putin's enemies who die in aeroplane accidents, one wonders why they would choose to fly in Russian airspace.

[Moses]

====Given the number of Putin's enemies who die in aeroplane accidents===

Could you please announce "number" here?

[Dragonman]

====Given the number of Putin's enemies who die in aeroplane accidents===

Could you please announce "number" here?

One example: On 10 April 2010, Poland's president Lech Kaczyński and 95 others were killed in a plane crash in Russia.

[Dodger]

Another example:

In April 2002, Lebed (on Putin's shit list) was on his way to inaugurate a new ski resort in the mountains of southern Krasnoyarsk when the Mi-8 helicopter he was flying in, along with 16 other passengers and crew, crashed. Eight people were killed, including Lebed, who died en route to the hospital. Authorities said the craft went down after running into power lines in foggy conditions and blamed the crew.

Nerve agents, poison, and window falls definitely top the list of Putin's preferred assassination methods - but who knows, as technology advances - so do his options. Maybe drones will be used in the future...or possibly AI robots. Who knows?

[dab69]

Russian Embassy Releases Map Recognizing Crimea as Ukraine’s


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-embassy-releases-map-recognizing-crimea-as-ukraine-s/ar-AA1fT7km?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=8fc2eefa92814d8499fa08cd74c0319a&ei=31



The Russian Embassy in South Africa has shared a map online that shows illegally annexed Crimea as part of Ukraine.

A post on the embassy's account on X, formerly known as Twitter, attempted to raise the profile of the BRICS grouping of world economies but appeared instead to endorse Crimea as being part of Ukraine.

The X post showed a world map with Ukraine's borders containing not only eastern parts of its territory that Russia claims to have annexed but also Crimea—which was illegally annexed by Moscow in 2014—in addition to BRICS members.

While BRICS refers specifically to the economies of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, the map posted on the embassy's account also included Ethiopia, Argentina, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Iran shaded in green, along with the five BRICS members.

[Dragonman]

Russian Embassy Releases Map Recognizing Crimea as Ukraine’s

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-embassy-releases-map-recognizing-crimea-as-ukraine-s/ar-AA1fT7km?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=8fc2eefa92814d8499fa08cd74c0319a&ei=31

The Russian Embassy in South Africa has shared a map online that shows illegally annexed Crimea as part of Ukraine..

I like it that the post was captioned "Reality of a new multipolar world." Ambassador Ilya Igorevich Rogachev will have some explaining to do.

[Moses]

==== Ethiopia, Argentina, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Iran shaded in green, along with the five BRICS members.====

They are official members from past week. Since Jan 1, 2024 these countries will start to use all privileges of BRICS membership.

13192

And with Crimea:
13193

[Moses]

G7 and BRICS comparation:

13194

[Dragonman]

Chan Kung, the founder of the Beijing-headquartered multinational independent think tank Anbound (http://www.anbound.com/About.php) and one of the PRC’s renowned experts in information analysis, particularly economic information analysis in the area of public policy, has pointed out that "Economic size is merely a mathematical concept but not real power." Others have made the same point, e.g., https://www.ineteconomics.org/about/news/2012/economics-is-not-math.

Chan Kung noted that BRICS's control over resources is fragmented and the bloc still does not have a global central position comparable to the G7. "The role of the BRICS countries as a challenger to the global order is valid, but they are unlikely to be a competitor to the G7."

Moreover, his comments don't take into account the present economic problems faced by the former and new members of the grouping.

The diagrams are pretty - but otherwise meaningless.

What is probable about the enlarged grouping, however, is that the weighting will tilt towards the PRC and away from the Russian Federation (see, e.g., https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/brics-is-doubling-its-membership-is-the-bloc-a-new-rival-for-the-g7/).

[Dodger]

What is probable about the enlarged grouping, however, is that the weighting will tilt towards the PRC and away from the Russian Federation (see, e.g., https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/brics-is-doubling-its-membership-is-the-bloc-a-new-rival-for-the-g7/).

Yes, probably so, but the Russian-Federation may be bolstered by their strengthening alliance with North Korea making it an even prettier map.

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[Dragonman]

In the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan, which lasted from 25 December 1979 until 15 February 1989, the reported death toll was 15,000 Soviet soldiers while about 35,000 were wounded.

There is now, however, a report on the Russian-language website of Vertska, an independent Russia media outlet with death and injury figures reported based on official Russian documents on a public portal. If the information in the report (https://verstka.media/mintuda-raskrylo-masshtaby-vozmozhnyh-poter-sredi-rossiyskih-voennyh-v-ukraine) is correct, then the death and injury toll so far is much higher than those in that 10-year operation.

The report has been picked up almost verbatim by western media outlets, e.g., https://www.newsweek.com/russia-orders-certificates-families-dead-soldiers-ukraine-war-1828178, and https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/19/putin-ordered-almost-250000-certificates-for-soldiers-killed-in-war).

"The Ministry of Labor and Social Development has ordered 230,000 ID cards for family members of fallen combat veterans. The Ministry of Labor and Social Protection of the Russian Federation has ordered almost a million certificates for veterans of combat operations and relatives of perished war veterans and invalids. Such a tender was found on the portal of public procurement by Verstka. The numbers could indirectly indicate the approximate scale of the Russian group's participation in the battles and losses.

The Ministry of Labor has ordered 757,305 certificates of a veteran of combat operations and 230,000 certificates for "family members of a deceased (deceased) disabled war veteran, a participant in the Great Patriotic War and a veteran of combat operations"). The initial cost of these works is estimated at 79 million rubles."

Another report (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/putin-gives-biggest-hint-yet-at-staggering-number-of-russians-he-s-sent-to-die), however, adds that "Two independent media outlets have carried out in-depth research and found the number of men to have died in the conflict is in fact around the 50,000 mark."

Whether the correct figure for the death toll so far 50,000 or 230,000, the long-term effects on Russian society and the economy of the number of men killed or wounded in this misguided and senseless operation will be severe. For example, scholars have stated that the effects of the Afghan War were a significant factor that contributed to the dissolution of the Soviet Union (e.g., https://faculty.washington.edu/aseem/afganwar.pdf), so it will be interesting to see what the outcome of this "special military operation" will be on the future of the Russian Federation.

Whatever the current and final death and injury figures, this stupidity has endured for far too long.

[arsenal]

Go back through history. If the invaded nation state is really prepared to fight whatever the cost then the chances of a successful invasion are almost zero. Never more so than in this war.

"Those Russians, they've brought nothing but misery to the world."
Golda Meir

[Dragonman]

Go back through history. If the invaded nation state is really prepared to fight whatever the cost then the chances of a successful invasion are almost zero. Never more so than in this war.

Putin studied Law as an undergraduate, and his PhD thesis was in Economics. It is a pity he never studied History, particularly Military History.

[Moses]

===an independent Russia media outlet===

Yeah, located somewhere in EU, using protonmail as email address as the only contact. Why you call them "Russian"? Nobody from nowhere.

But fact is correct. 230 000 is ordered to print. In the same contract is described, what from 230 000 only 30 000 should be delivered to Ministry of social protection, rest 200 000 should be send to warehouse of Ministry of defense.

Since the only ministry who is responsible for issuing of such IDs is Ministry of social protection, you may clearly see what is exactly number of deaths for now - for sure below 30 000.

Moreover ID are personal, and that means what 1 family may receive multiple IDs - parents, widow, children above 16 yo (they have rights for free education in colleges and UNI).

[Moses]

Meanwhile Ukraine extended limits for males who can't leave country from 18-50 to from 16 till 60 yo. Also 2 weeks ago parliament canceled exemptions for ill people to be mobilized. Now is legal to mobilize people with tuberculosis, HIV, hepatitis, epilepsy, psychic disorder and much more illnesses.

And here you may see how looks "mobilization" on the Ukrainian streets - cars with few strong men hunting on streets and catching people who is male and within 18-50 yo limits. Men on the video is crying in Ukrainian language "Help!", but nobody helps.

Published few days ago in Ukrainian channel https://t.me/stranaua/122907

Screenshot:
13204 (https://t.me/stranaua/122907)

[Dragonman]

===an independent Russia media outlet===

Yeah, located somewhere in EU, using protonmail as email address as the only contact. Why you call them "Russian"? Nobody from nowhere.

But fact is correct. 230 000 is ordered to print. In the same contract is described, what from 230 000 only 30 000 should be delivered to Ministry of social protection, rest 200 000 should be send to warehouse of Ministry of defense.

Since the only ministry who is responsible for issuing of such IDs is Ministry of social protection, you may clearly see what is exactly number of deaths for now - for sure below 30 000.

Moreover ID are personal, and that means what 1 family may receive multiple IDs - parents, widow, children above 16 yo (they have rights for free education in colleges and UNI).

Vertska probably uses protonmail (a Swiss-based service), which "uses client-side encryption to protect email content and user data before they are sent to Proton Mail servers, unlike other common email providers such as Gmail and Outlook.com." (https://proton.me/) for the same reason I also use an email service other than Gmail or Outlook.com.

Please provide a link to the contract so that your claim that "from 230 000 only 30 000 should be delivered to Ministry of social protection, rest 200 000 should be send to warehouse of Ministry of defense.".

Your claim that "exactly number of deaths for now - for sure below 30 000" is for what time period, as it is not supported by other sources, e.g., "How many Russians have died in Ukraine? Data shows what Moscow hides" (https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-military-deaths-facd) which suggested in July 2023 a figure of nearly 50,000 Russian dead in the war in Ukraine.

[Dragonman]

Meanwhile Ukraine extended limits for males who can't leave country from 18-50 to from 16 till 60 yo. Also 2 weeks ago parliament canceled exemptions for ill people to be mobilized. Now is legal to mobilize people with tuberculosis, HIV, hepatitis, epilepsy, psychic disorder and much more illnesses.

And here you may see how looks "mobilization" on the Ukrainian streets - cars with few strong men hunting on streets and catching people who is male and within 18-50 yo limits. Men on the video is crying in Ukrainian language "Help!", but nobody helps.

Published few days ago in Ukrainian channel https://t.me/stranaua/122907

Screenshot:
13204 (https://t.me/stranaua/122907)

Why didn't you comment when Russia passed a series of bills to raise its conscription age and allowing the calling up 70-year-olds in the higher ranks in an effort to avoid another large-scale mobilization? Or when Russia, facing mounting manpower shortages, announced the mobilization of 300,000 reservists in one fell swoop last year, prompting tens of thousands of Russian men to flee? Or when Russia also passed a bill that prohibits men who have been conscripted from leaving the country in an attempt to cut down on draft dodging? (see, e.g., https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/07/25/world/russia-ukraine-news).

With regard to empty streets - "Where Have All the Men in Moscow Gone?" New York Times, Oct 19, 2022, https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/world/europe/russia-moscow-army-draft.html.

Your comment on changes to men who can be mobilized in Ukraine is misleading in that people with clinically cured tuberculosis, viral hepatitis, slowly progressing blood diseases, thyroid gland diseases with minor functional disorders, and those who are HIV-positive but without symptoms, are considered still fit for military service. In addition, people suffering from mild mental disorders, neurotic disorders, slowly progressive diseases of the central nervous system and others have been added to the list. The reason given for the changes was to "clear it of those who use their positions against the security and defense of our state (https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines-ministry-of-defense-expands-list-of-persons-with-diseases-suitable-for-mobilization/).

As it is impossible to identify the location or the circumstances shown in the video clip, it could have come from a TV show.

[Moses]

====As it is impossible to identify the location or the circumstances shown in the video clip, it could have come from a TV show.===
Yeah, to deny is first stage always...

[Dragonman]

Published few days ago in Ukrainian channel https://t.me/stranaua/122907

Screenshot:
13204 (https://t.me/stranaua/122907)

I have looked again at the video clip. According to the description below it, this apparently took place in Lviv, but the date and location are not given. The interesting point about the clip, however, is that the comments below it apparently are in Russian, not Ukrainian, though I could be mistaken.

[Moses]

I have looked again at the video clip. According to the description below it, this apparently took place in Lviv, but the date and location are not given. The interesting point about the clip, however, is that the comments below it apparently are in Russian, not Ukrainian, though I could be mistaken.

StranaUA (transl. UA country() is Ukrainian news service for Russian speaking people, it isn't proRussian (isn't pro Russian Federation), but is media of opposition in Ukraine, part of opposition who also supports EU, but are competitors to Zelenskiy. That why comments are in Russian. They are more left, something what in most countries will call social-democrats.

[Dragonman]

StranaUA (transl. UA country() is Ukrainian news service for Russian speaking people, it isn't proRussian (isn't pro Russian Federation), but is media of opposition in Ukraine, part of opposition who also supports EU, but are competitors to Zelenskiy. That why comments are in Russian. They are more left, something what in most countries will call social-democrats.

The European Press Roundup website (https://www.eurotopics.net/en/192896/strana) confirms that StranaUA "Articles are published in Russian only," and that its "Political orientation" is "Critical of the government." But it also states that "Opponents describe the site as pro-Russian and financed by Russians."

The detention of one conscript at an unspecified time and location (other than it being in Lviv oblast) doesn't compare with the following cases, which I don't recall you mentioning anywhere: "Eight conscripted men have been detained near Moscow after leaving Luhansk Oblast with weapons; a serviceman from Kamchatka [Russia’s Far East – ed.] has been sentenced to 1.8 years in prison for refusing to participate in hostilities in Ukraine, and two local residents have been killed during their arrest in Kabardino-Balkaria [a subject of the Russian Federation, part of the North Caucasus Federal District – ed.] - those killed had allegedly been preparing an attack on the military registration and enlistment office." Source: Russian Telegram channel Baza (Source: "Eight Russian conscripts detained near Moscow after fleeing from Luhansk with weapons." (https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/12/27/7382529/, Tuesday, 27 December 2022).

All of these events merely emphasize the stupidity, futility and sheer folly of this "special military operation" where, according to research by the think tank RUSI (Royal United Services Institute), Vladimir Putin expected to take control of Ukraine within 10 days (https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-Putin-lost-in-10-days).

[Moses]

====The detention of one conscript at an unspecified time and location (other than it being in Lviv oblast)====

So you easy make conclusion what it is 1 only case just because I show one case? Bravo.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ловля+призывник ов+украина

Ukraine desperate mobilizing everyone who didn't run from country. More than year ago they already started to mobilize even woman.

===All of these events merely emphasize the stupidity, futility and sheer folly of this "special military operation" where, according to research by the think tank RUSI===
The most stupid "research" unless they can read mind.

West is sponsor of war "till last Ukrainian".

Cyndy McCain (widow of senator McCain) told few days ago in UN: Ukraine [...] has sucked the oxygen out of the room.

https://www.newsweek.com/cindy-mccain-warns-about-funding-shortage-world-food-program-1827910

[Dragonman]

====The detention of one conscript at an unspecified time and location (other than it being in Lviv oblast)====

So you easy make conclusion what it is 1 only case just because I show one case? Bravo.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ловля+призывник ов+украина

Ukraine desperate mobilizing everyone who didn't run from country. More than year ago they already started to mobilize even woman.

===All of these events merely emphasize the stupidity, futility and sheer folly of this "special military operation" where, according to research by the think tank RUSI===
The most stupid "research" unless they can read mind.

West is sponsor of war "till last Ukrainian". Which Western leader said this??

Cyndy McCain (widow of senator McCain) told few days ago in UN: Ukraine [...] has sucked the oxygen out of the room.

https://www.newsweek.com/cindy-mccain-warns-about-funding-shortage-world-food-program-1827910


To cite your earlier response: "Yeah, to deny is first stage always..." It is what you have done since the beginning of this special military operation. For example, you denigrate the RUSI report but provide no evidence it is incorrect. Either that, or you fall silent because you have no response to make.

With regard to the mobilization of women, this is simply Ukraine giving women equality with men, something for which the worldwide women's movement have been agitating, and which Norway and Sweden have done since 2015 and 2018 respectively. Perhaps you do not remember that the Soviet Union conscripted the most women for combat, comparative to other national military during wartime and especially during WW II (S. Marble, "Filling the ranks: conscription and personnel policies", The Cambridge History of the Second World War, Cambridge University Press, pp. 585–607).

West is sponsor of war "till last Ukrainian". Which Western leader said this??

Cyndy McCain actually said that " funding surrounding Ukraine has "sucked the oxygen out." This was in reference to funding for the World Food Program (https://www.newsweek.com/cindy-mccain-warns-about-funding-shortage-world-food-program-1827910). Your misquoting her is symptomatic of your postings out of context.