The Brink of War?

[cdnmatt]

I don't even know where to begin responding to that...

[Moses]

I don't even know where to begin responding to that...

You may start here:

Year 2015. Ukrainians are happy what 2.5 millions of Crimean are without electricity and water and posting mems in social networks:

Malevich, "Night in Crimea", on the picture "Black Square".

12837


Space view on Crimea at night - night lights everywhere in Ukraine except Crimea.

12838

And most fabulous video: current Ukrainian president Zelenskiy plays role of Crimean citizen who is living without water in "comic" scene on Ukrainian TV, Oct 25, 2014. Full hall of Ukrainians is laughing when Zelenskiy shows Crimean citizen who want to drink water:


https://youtu.be/4z9FRKw59xM


Karma found them. Boomerang is back, with strong kick.

Once again: peace talks are forbidden by Ukrainian law since September 20, 2022 by decree of Zelenskiy. He burned all bridges.
Official site https://www.president.gov.ua/documents/6792022-44249 Ukrainian language.

[cdnmatt]

What the hell are you on about now? Back in 2015 Crimea was part of Russia, hence their gas and energy supply was fully the responsibilit of Russia. Why would Ukraine supply their sown enemy power and gas, especially when that enemy just recently invaded and annexed a good chunk of their country?

Not to mention, not supporting your enemy is a far cry from actively bombing the hell out of a foreign nation's power grids and water infrastructure in order to freeze them to death this winter and/or pound them into submission.

Besides, I thought this whole special military operation was just some targetted attacks agains the Nazis.

[Moses]

Back in 2015 Crimea was part of Russia,


You just said words what will cost you 7 years in prison in Ukraine. Ukraine counts Crimea part of Ukraine occuped by Russia.


Also that means what Ukraine cut electricity and water for own citizens who is living under occupation, despite Russia's offer to pay for water.


And that means what Zelenskiy and Ukrainians laugh on Ukrainians who is living in Crimea without electricity and water. They laugh, not me.


Not to mention, not supporting your enemy is a far cry from actively bombing the hell out of a foreign nation's power grids and water infrastructure in order to freeze them to death this winter and/or pound them into submission.


Oh, darling, you have no idea how far Ukrainian Nazi govt may step. Here is speech of Poroshenko - first president of Ukraine after coup, he speaks in Ukrainian in 2014 while talking about East of Ukraine (translated from Ukrainian by Google)

"We'll have a job - they won't. We will have pensions - they don't. We will have support for children and pensioners - they don't.Our children will go to schools and kindergartens - their children will sit in basements. Because they can't do anything. This is how we will win this war."

He is talking about war with own citizens.


https://youtu.be/DVIDR9JSPFs

Kids of Lugansk and Donetsk spend 7 years in basements under bombing. Boomerang is back. 145:25.

P.S. By the way: Russia still pump oil, gas, ammonium via Ukrainian territory by pipes and pays to Ukraine. So take your false proudness for Ukrainians back - they easy accept deals with "enemy", Ukrainian govt has no principles when is time to talk about money.

[cdnmatt]

Oh, darling, you have no idea how far Ukrainian Nazi govt may step.

Yeah, that Jewish President of Ukraine... what a Nazi asshole that guy is.

You're so far gone and brainwashed, there's no point in even talking to you.

[Moses]

You're so far gone and brainwashed, there's no point in even talking to you.

You are living in own fantasies under cooked by Western mass medias half truth, I'm yearly visiting graves of my relatives who was killed by Ukrainian nationalists. Who of us is brainwashed?

Read again words of Ukrainian president, November 2014: Our children will go to schools and kindergartens - their children will sit in basements.

[cdnmatt]

Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around. Enough said.

When will you realize this move by Russia was as horrible and abhorrent as when Bush invaded Iraq? The vast majority of the Western world is still livid at Bush and his cronies for doing that.

Why are you not enraged that Putin is basically doing the exact same thing, except with more brutality? He's literally deploying the military to ensure kids freeze to death and don't have running water.

Who does that?

[Moses]

The vast majority of the Western world

I don't know how much supports Bush, but look at the picture:

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Up-s... I forgot. Sorry.

[Dodger]

[QUOTE=Moses;293141]

Powerplants are legal military targets by Hague convention./QUOTE]

According to International Law the war that Russia launched on Ukraine is "Illegal", thus the targeting of ANYTHING on Ukrainian soil is also illegal.

I seriously doubt that the Hague Convention you keep referring to will override International Law when it comes time to prosecute Putin and Russia's military for the atrocious war crimes it's committing.

[cdnmatt]

[QUOTE=Moses;293141]

Powerplants are legal military targets by Hague convention./QUOTE]

According to International Law the war that Russia launched on Ukraine is "Illegal", thus the targeting of ANYTHING on Ukrainian soil is also illegal.

I seriously doubt that the Hague Convention you keep referring to will override International Law when it comes time to prosecute Putin and Russia's military for the atrocious war crimes it's committing.


Russian leadership will never be prosecuted for this war. Same as Bush and his cronies were never prosecuted for their bullshit war in Iraq, which many people were calling for.

Only chance of Russian leadership being prosecuted for their war crimes is if they're stupid enough to start using WMD, whether that's nuclear, chemical or biological, and force the West's hand into going into Moscow. Let's hope that never happens though.

Aside from that though, they're protected, and nothing we can do about their war crimes. Yell at them in the UN I guess, but that doesn't do anything. Other than that, the West just continues its mission of plunging the Russian economy into poverty and depleting their military. From the looks of things, seems like the West is doing a pretty good job so far.

I kind of wish NATO would step in at this point though. You can't just let tens of millions of people including women and children freeze to death like this.

[Moses]

Powerplants are legal military targets by Hague convention.

According to International Law the war that Russia launched on Ukraine is "Illegal", thus the targeting of ANYTHING on Ukrainian soil is also illegal.

I seriously doubt that the Hague Convention you keep referring to will override International Law when it comes time to prosecute Putin and Russia's military for the atrocious war crimes it's committing.

Hague convention IS international law. Keystone law if speak about war and peace. Human civilization does not recognize war as a criminal act.

Any court process is possible only when sovereign state signed Rome statute and accepts and recognizes prevailing of IC court's authority on local law. That why USA in general and Bush are safe from criminal process - USA signed Rome statute, but quitted from Rome statute shortly before war in Iraq. Moreover - when prosecutors from ICC started to collect information about that war, USA imposed sanctions on ICC prosecutors.

[cdnmatt]

Talking about international law is pretty futile at this point How many mass graves in Ukraine have been uncovered now? How many stories of torture and rape have been reported done at the hands of Russian soldiers?

[Moses]

Talking about international law is pretty futile at this point How many mass graves in Ukraine have been uncovered now? How many stories of torture and rape have been reported done at the hands of Russian soldiers?

Well, Russia always has possibility just repeat after Madeleine Albright, who spoke about half millions of Iraq children said: "I think that is a very hard choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth it."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8YQ8gKIV8U

[cdnmatt]

You bet Moses. Two wrongs always make a right.

[Dodger]

Putin fell down a few steps and crapped in his pants.

This may be a sign of better days ahead.

https://nypost.com/2022/12/02/putin-fell-down-stairs-soiled-himself-amid-health-woes-report/

[Moses]

Putin fell down a few steps and crapped in his pants.

This may be a sign of better days ahead.

https://nypost.com/2022/12/02/putin-fell-down-stairs-soiled-himself-amid-health-woes-report/

gossips, gossips... at least he is for sure still in his mind, doesn't shake thin air, doesn't complains what he has cancer while he has not and doesn't name Cambodia as Columbia :)))))))))

[Dodger]

It looks like Ukraine may be respoible for sending drones on attacks on Russian air bases.

Now, here comes a very ignorant sounding comment I'm about to make: Why didn't Ukraine start taking offensive actions against Russia sooner?

Yes, I understand all about the fear-factor with Putin's nukes, but even with that understanding, I still have not been able to understand why all the fighting has been going on on the Ukrainian side of the border. Hell, if someone was bombing the shit out of me I would be doing more than just "blocking" their punches, I'd be taking the game to them as well.

What more can Putin do to Ukraine than he's already doing? The answer I come up with is pretty close to ZERO. He's already running an insane mass destruction campaign against Ukraine's civilian population - knocking out it's energy resources in the process, so what else can he do?

Personally I think it would be the best strategy at the juncture in Putin's war for Ukraine to just increase its offensive posture and start showing the people of Russia exactly what it's like to live in constant fear. Maybe then...just maybe...the Russian people will mount a revolt against Putin and his dedicated oligarchs (if there's any left) to put a lid on this thing.

A few dozen missiles launched directly at the Kremlin would be a nice touch. Putin would probably shrug that off like he does everything else - but his bodyguards wouldn't be too happy having to clean up his poop again.

Read about it here:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/06/europe/russia-ukraine-strikes-analysis-intl/index.html

[Moses]

It looks like Ukraine may be respoible for sending drones on attacks on Russian air bases.

Now, here comes a very ignorant sounding comment I'm about to make: Why didn't Ukraine start taking offensive actions against Russia sooner?

Yes, I understand all about the fear-factor with Putin's nukes, but even with that understanding, I still have not been able to understand why all the fighting has been going on on the Ukrainian side of the border. Hell, if someone was bombing the shit out of me I would be doing more than just "blocking" their punches, I'd be taking the game to them as well.

What more can Putin do to Ukraine than he's already doing? The answer I come up with is pretty close to ZERO. He's already running an insane mass destruction campaign against Ukraine's civilian population - knocking out it's energy resources in the process, so what else can he do?

Personally I think it would be the best strategy at the juncture in Putin's war for Ukraine to just increase its offensive posture and start showing the people of Russia exactly what it's like to live in constant fear. Maybe then...just maybe...the Russian people will mount a revolt against Putin and his dedicated oligarchs (if there's any left) to put a lid on this thing.

A few dozen missiles launched directly at the Kremlin would be a nice touch. Putin would probably shrug that off like he does everything else - but his bodyguards wouldn't be too happy having to clean up his poop again.

Read about it here:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/06/europe/russia-ukraine-strikes-analysis-intl/index.html

Yes, they have few "drones" - 50 years old Soviet TU-141 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-141
The same as fell down in Croatia this spring.

About midnight on 10 March 2022, during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, a Tu-141 crashed in front of a student campus in Zagreb, Croatia, over 550 kilometres (340 mi) from Ukraine. Before it crashed, it had flown over Romania and Hungary.

There were no casualties. The Ukrainian Air Force said that the drone did not belong to them. They always deny - cowards. Still deny what missiles which fell in Poland month ago were Ukrainian.

The Russian Embassy in Zagreb stated that Russian forces had not had such drones in their arsenal since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. The Croatian president, Zoran Milanović, said it was clear the drone came from the direction of Ukraine, entering Croatia after flying over Hungary.

On 15 March, an undisclosed source close to the MoD of Croatia was cited in the Croatian news magazine Nacional as saying that the investigation had concluded that the crashed drone belonged to the Armed Forces of Ukraine and carried a bomb that was meant for striking Russia's positions, but the drone had strayed off course and crashed after it ran out of fuel.

In hopes "to make noise" and earn some more money from "sponsors" Ukrainians hit some airbases (two exactly). Damage is minimal, but at this week as a answer they will loose again about 10% of Ukrainian energy system and again will cry about poor civilians.

==== Maybe then...just maybe...the Russian people will mount a revolt against Putin and his dedicated oligarchs (if there's any left) to put a lid on this thing. ===
This is unbelievable suppose, Putin has about 55%-60% of support currently. Coup also is unbelievable: all top persons are on his side.

[Dodger]

This is unbelievable suppose, Putin has about 55%-60% of support currently. Coup also is unbelievable: all top persons are on his side.

If that's the case then I imagine Ukraine only has one choice.

[Andy]

start showing the people of Russia exactly what it's like to live in constant fear.

We've got used to it.

[cdnmatt]

I'm just curious as to whether it was Ukraine or the US who carried out those strikes in Russia?

Russia has excellent radar and air defense systems, so an air base being struck 400km within their territory and nobody knows who did it raises an eyebrow for me. Not to mention, Ukraine isn't known to possess this type of technology / weaponary. Who knows, maybe the US is testing out their new B21 stealth bomber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uLrGT-gfOI

Only problem with that though is if it was the US, they wouldn't have managed to just get a couple planes, and instead there wouldn't be an airbase there anymore.

[Dodger]

I'm just curious as to whether it was Ukraine or the US who carried out those strikes in Russia?

Russia has excellent radar and air defense systems......

If Russian air defense systems are being managed by the same military officers who are running the ground-game in Ukraine it doesn't matter how "excellent" the systems are.

Why do you think Putin ordered his military to put the brakes on his offensive immediately after this happened? Then, 24 hours later, he's back to saber rattling again - tossing the word "nuclear" out there - all because he's back to pooping in his pants again knowing how vulnerable Russia actually is to air attacks.

He better have a good supply of pampers.

[Moses]

Why do you think Putin ordered his military to put the brakes on his offensive immediately after this happened? .

Who said what anybody "put brakes". Russia makes hits every Monday. then week waits for Ukrainians to fix damage and to install new equipment, and after week destroys that again. No need to make hits every day, hits once a week make more damage... EU soon will have empty warehouses for spare parts for power stations.

[Dodger]

Putin, who is known to be an extremely paranoid person, is now being devoured by his own fears.

What does a paranoid narcisist do when he's failed and has no where to turn? Answer: He becomes bloodthirsty for revenge in his final moments of desperation and turns to fear mongering as a last resort. That's exactly what we're seeing now.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/09/europe/russia-putin-nuclear-weapons-intl/index.html

The willingness of NATO nations to continue providing any/all support needed to defeat Putin is simply unshakable...regardless of all the desperate fear mongering tactics Putin tries to use. It's simply too late for that. The World can see through him.

[cdnmatt]

It'll be nice once those Patriot missile systems get deployed to Ukraine. Then maybe they'll get some permanent electricity and water again.

Oh, and I almost forgot. Fuck Putin.

[Moses]

It'll be nice once those Patriot missile systems get deployed to Ukraine. Then maybe they'll get some permanent electricity and water again.

Oh, and I almost forgot. Fuck Putin.

Zero chance: "Patriot" can't intercept even "Iskander" (2100 m/sec), speaking about "Kinzhal" - don't think about: 4000 m/sec. And cherry on the top of the tort - "Avangard" just arrived to army, there is no any way to intercept it - up to 27Mah (33000 km/hour or 9000 m/sec).

"Patriot" is too old - up to 1600 m/sec. By the way: every launch costs 1.5-3 mln USD, and you will pay for it.

[cdnmatt]

Zero chance: "Patriot" can't intercept even "Iskander", speaking about "Kinzhal" - don't think about. And cherry on the top of the tort - "Avangard" just arrived to army - there is no any way to intercept it - up to 27Mah (33000 km/hour).

"Patriot" is too old.

Considering the amount of propaganda coming out from the Kremlin, I would beg to differ.

I think during this war, it's been very well proven that Western technology beats Russian technology. There's kind of no other conclusion you can come to.

[Moses]

Considering the amount of propaganda coming out from the Kremlin, I would beg to differ.

I think during this war, it's been very well proven that Western technology beats Russian technology. There's kind of no other conclusion you can come to.

Yeah, that why Turkey prefers C-400 and C-500 from Russia... Sure-sure...

USA loose hypersonic rally to Russia and China... still testing and get faults...

By the way: under the Treaty on Measures for the Further Reduction and Limitation of Strategic Offensive Arms, a US inspection group was shown the Avangard missile system with the hypersonic boost-glide vehicle on the territory of Russia on November 24-26, 2019

[cdnmatt]

You betcha, you little dreamer you.

The Patriot missile systems being deployed into Ukraine quite obviously spooks the Kremlin, so they're hardly out of date.

[Moses]

You betcha, you little dreamer you.

The Patriot missile systems being deployed into Ukraine quite obviously spooks the Kremlin, so they're hardly out of date.

Matty, don't be stupid. This paper has been presented to US Congress just 5 days ago: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/weapons/R45811.pdf

It is overview of current situation with hypersonic weapon. Only two nations have hypersonic weapons in army: Russia and China. Doesn't exists any missile what may intercept it.

Qouta:
Former Under Secretary of Defense for Research and Engineering (USD[R&E]) Michael Griffin has testified to Congress that the United States does not “have systems which can hold [China and Russia] at risk in a corresponding manner, and we don’t have defenses against [their] systems".

[cdnmatt]

Then why is Putin basically threatening nuclear war if those Patriot defense systems are deployed to Ukraine? The Kremlin is quite obviously scared of them being deployed.

You're delusional. Same as many months ago, you said this war would be over in 2 or 3 weeks.

As I've stated many times, don't expect the West to give up. We're going to run Russia dry, and at the end of all this, expect to become a poverty stricken wasteland that the rest of the world knows as the world's gas station.

Always remember, Russia started this war, not the West.

[Moses]

====The Kremlin is quite obviously scared of them being deployed.====

Who said Kremlin is scared? Kremlin is annoyed. Than longer will be support of Ukraine, then longer will be end of current Ukrainian government, then more Ukrainians will die. West wants war never end - it makes Russia busy. And some officials from USA and UK even warn Ukraine not agree to peace talk.

Well, West wants war till last Ukrainian. But 145:25, and end is easy predictable.

[cdnmatt]

The Kremlin is threatining nuclear war if those Patriot missile systems are deployed. Need I say more?

Not the first time they've threatened that, and won't be the last.

Whatever... as I've said many times, the West isn't going to give up on this fight. Russia started this shit, and the West will be happy to finish it as we've always done ever since WWI.

[Moses]

Matty, do you want prediction how it will be?

When Patriots will be deployed in Ukraine, Russia will start to launch tens of primitive missiles every day. Very primitive: like peace of pipe with primitive engine. They may be even without explosive. Just peace of metal. Each will cost to Russia up to 10 thousands dollars, including delivery and launch. On each of such launch Patriot will launch anti-missile which costs over one million dollars...

We will see how much USA will be ready to spend for to intercept flying pipes. Soon or later money will run out and US will stop to supply these Patriots with ammo.

[cdnmatt]

You betcha, you little dreamer you.

Have fun going up against the US military. I have nothing more to say.

[Moses]

You betcha, you little dreamer you.


Matty, nothing new from you: when you as usual have no facts to enforce your position, you starting to discuss opponent.


Have fun going up against the US military.

Oh darling, US military already ran from Afghanistan...


I have nothing more to say.

That's the best part of your post.

[cdnmatt]

You bet. Assuming those Patriot missile systems get deployed in the next 60 days, it'll be a new ball game.

Right now, with the current air defense systems Ukraine has right now, they're shooting dow around 70% of incoming missiles. That's going to increase o probably 98% once those new missile systems are deployed.

i've already told you Moses, the West is in this for the long game. Russia is going to lose, and no way around that.

[Moses]

Right now, with the current air defense systems Ukraine has right now, they're shooting dow around 70% of incoming missiles. That's going to increase o probably 98% once those new missile systems are deployed.

i've already told you Moses, the West is in this for the long game. Russia is going to lose, and no way around that.

You still not got? Each time they shooting down wave of cheap Iranian drones that Russia send as a slow moving targets exactly for to force Ukraine to spend expensive anti-missiles. When Ukrainian launch pads became empty, comes turn of real missiles and no one of them is downed. That why already about 60% of Ukrainian energy system is laying in ruins.

[cdnmatt]

Right, because the only thing Russia has left in its arsenal is cheap crap, and other cheap crap bought from Iran.

Once again, you do realize the West hasn't even engaged in this war yet, right? The West has a little bit via proxy, but not really.

What Ukraine is being sent is minescule compared to the actual capabilities of the West. Russia is throwing everything they have at this war, and the West hasn't even gotten started, so it doesn't take a geniuys to figure out where this ends.

[Moses]

Once again, you do realize the West hasn't even engaged in this war yet, right?

"Hasn't even engaged" while already spend over $100 billions? Well... your pockets as taxpayer are for sure engaged...

[cdnmatt]

Again, aside from a proxy war, the West hasn't actually engaged yet yet, and I think you know that.

[Dodger]

I can only speak for the U.S. and say that citizens here support the financial contributions being made to support Ukraine's fight for freedom by an overwhelming majority. Most also support a more rapid deployment of advanced missile power (including Patriots) to help end the war sooner.

As far as the money that's being spent, the United States of America is the richest country in the World - and it didn't get that way by accident. The U.S. budget for building and improving its already advanced military arsenal is staggering to some - and "running out of ammo" isn't even conceivable within the ranks of the U.S. military.

Putin knows this, thus the reason he's been pooping in his pants at a much higher frequency lately.

[cdnmatt]

The US got to become the world's reserve currency by kicking ass and taking names in WWII.

I'm personally fine with that, but let's not forget why the US dollar is the current global reserve currency.

I'd just like NATO to finally go in and help the Ukrainians, as this is getting to be total bs. It sucks watching Ukraine become a sacrificial lamb like this.

[Moses]

I can only speak for the U.S. and say that citizens here support the financial contributions being made to support Ukraine's fight for freedom by an overwhelming majority. Most also support a more rapid deployment of advanced missile power (including Patriots) to help end the war sooner.


Do you think so? Then is better to look on reality (poll just 2 weeks ago)


Key Findings of American Public's Views on Ukraine War

An equal percentage of Americans say Russia (26%) and Ukraine (26%) has the advantage in the current conflict. But a plurality (46%) believes that neither country has the advantage.
Solid majorities of Americans continue to support supplying Ukraine with arms (65%) and economic aid (66%), accepting Ukrainian refugees (73%), and sanctioning Russia (75%).
A plurality believes the United States should maintain its current level of support for Ukraine indefinitely (40%). Nearly three in 10 each say that the United States should intervene militarily to tip the advantage to Ukraine and end the war as soon as possible (27%) or that the United States should gradually withdraw support for Ukraine (29%).
Separately, Americans are now closely divided on whether Washington should support Ukraine “as long as it takes” (48%, down from 58% in July 2022) or whether Washington should urge Ukraine to settle for peace as soon as possible (47%, up from 38% in July).
Perceptions of who is winning have a great bearing on support for Kyiv.


https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/growing-us-divide-how-long-support-ukraine

[cdnmatt]

And Zelensky is off to the US to meet Biden. First trip out of country since the war began, so I guess see what happens.

[Moses]

And Zelensky is off to the US to meet Biden. First trip out of country since the war began, so I guess see what happens.

Yeah, Zelensky is world known beggar - always asking for money... every Ukrainian president does that... before war, during war, and Ukraine will continue it endless after war. Ukrainaians think what everyone must support them. Just look on numbers - how much International Monetary Fund already paid them...

Since first year - 1991 - Ukraine no one year was profitable - every year country had negative trade balance. Till 2014 they sucked money from Russia, since 2014 EU and USA are their "donors". It is only way how country survives - to take money, steal and ask again.

Now new $45 bln money tranche is in danger - republicans may stop it, so Zelenskiy urgently started his visit to US for to push it via congress.

[cdnmatt]

Say whatever you want. The West will win this war.

The West is far stronger than Russia is, so still unsure why you guys decided to wage this war, but whatever...

I'm not sure what delusional fantasy you're living in, but I promise you, the West is going to win out on this one.

[Moses]

Say whatever you want. The West will win this war.

The West is far stronger than Russia is, so still unsure why you guys decided to wage this war, but whatever...

I'm not sure what delusional fantasy you're living in, but I promise you, the West is going to win out on this one.

Yeah, West already "won" Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Vietnam, Syria, Yugoslavia...

By the way: EU's space-rocket just fell down after 2+ minutes of flight after launch... without Russian engines... Airbus's attempt to make own engines failed.

[cdnmatt]

You betcha you little dreamer you.

[Moses]

Parcel "Zelenskiy" has been delivered to US by US aircraft.
Boss calls his puppet for report and instructions.

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[Dodger]

Zelensky was recently named "Person of the Year" as shown on the front cover of the prestigious Time Magazine. This comes at a time when Putin holds the honors of being the most hated and disrespected "Person of the Year".

Gee, I wonder which one will win!

[Moses]

Zelensky was recently named "Person of the Year" as shown on the front cover of the prestigious Time Magazine. This comes at a time when Putin holds the honors of being the most hated and disrespected "Person of the Year".

Gee, I wonder which one will win!

Putin already was there in 2007.

[dab69]

Putin already was there in 2007.


I am certain he will make it again in a far different capacity...

[Dodger]

Putin already was there in 2007.

Yes, he was acknowledged by Time Magazine 20 years ago for helping to guide Russia out of the state of total chaos that existing in Russia during that period. It was also known that Putin was a dangerous man - where democratic values like freedom of speech and other basic civil liberties would be non-existent under his rule. He gave Russia "stability" during chaotic times but lacked the vision and/or experience to lead Russia into the new millenium with modern forward-thinking based on democratic values. Russia is paying the price for that right now.

[Moses]

Russia is paying the price for that right now.

Yeah. Got territories.

[Dodger]

Yeah. Got territories.

Having temporary possession of territory that belongs to someone else - in exchange for 100,000 dead Russian soldiers and total isolation from the Free World doesn't sound like a very good deal to me.

The percentage of Russians who would agree with what I just said is growing exponentially.

[Moses]

==== Having temporary possession of territory that belongs to someone else ===
Yeah.
NATO member Turkey already 50 years has in "temporary possession" Northern Cyprus.
NATO member UK already more than 100 years has in "temporary possession" land on the same Cyprus
NATO member US has in "temporary possession" Guantanamo on Cuba island

==== in exchange for 100,000 dead Russian soldiers ====
You should say 1.000.000, why you stopped only on 100.000?

==== total isolation from the Free World ====

"Total isolation" you said? It sounds funny, first of all because you even can't count how many exemptions already made "Free World" from sanctions. Grain, fertilizers, gas, oil, titanium.. you may count... How you may call it "total" without keeping fingers crossed?

Speaking of this propagandist template "Free World": if 39 of 198 countries are "free world", then how you will call rest 159? "World which is exploited by Free World"? "Our colonies"?

You know, what it is "Free" from? From conscience.
2 nuclear bombing of civilians
X.000.000 victims in Vietnam
X.000.000 victims in Afghanistan
X00.000 victims in Iraq
X00.000 victims in Yugoslavia
X00.000 victims in Syria
X00.000 victims in Libya
no one year without war somewhere on planet without leading one of countries from your "Free world" list at past 100 years.


The percentage of Russians who would agree with what I just said is growing exponentially.
Maybe. And already is over 2%? Besides "exponentially" you should take in count time in which function grows twice. Number of Putin's approval flows here btw 60 and 70% from week to week.

[latintopxxx]

realise im repeating myself but all i can think of is the waste....beauriful young men being led to slaughter...stick a Russian next to a Ukrainian and I cant tell the diff...what a stupid war...

[vnman]

Number of Putin's approval flows here btw 60 and 70% from week to week.

See how much I know from politics. I thought Putin was a dictator. See, I was under the impression that you were not allowed to demonstrate and even saying that Russia is in a war could get you in deep trouble.

Happy to hear that it is all just western propaganda and Russia is right where they want to be.

Speaking of propaganda. You can't make this up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fo65r9AuCw

[Moses]

See how much I know from politics. I thought Putin was a dictator. See, I was under the impression that you were not allowed to demonstrate and even saying that Russia is in a war could get you in deep trouble.

Happy to hear that it is all just western propaganda and Russia is right where they want to be.

Speaking of propaganda. You can't make this up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fo65r9AuCw

Well, nobody spoke about freedom of speech here in that topic above yet. I easy will agree with facts, what here exists censorship. Less than in Ukraine, but still exists.

At least here are forbidden only 3 parties: 1 - well known CPSU (from USSR, forbidden in early 90s) and 2 ultra nationalistic parties. No one media channel was closed by order. Some were closed by economical reasons - advertisers stopped to cooperate with them, or were bought by loyal to Kremlin companies.

Loyalty of public to Putin has roots in economical sphere - median and average personal incomes at time of his ruling grew 4-5 times. I told it many times: on presidential elections here nobody wants to make fake voting - stocked kitchen refrigerators vote for him successfully every time.

[vnman]

stocked kitchen refrigerators vote for him successfully every time.

That makes those propaganda videos even more hilarious.

[Dodger]

Well, nobody spoke about freedom of speech here in that topic above yet. I easy will agree with facts, what here exists censorship.

Up until recently, if a Russian citizen referred to what's going on in Ukraine publicly as a "War" he could be imprisoned. That my friend has nothing to do with "censorship" - that's just a violation of a persons freedom of speech. Now, if this level of freedom isn't provided in Russia just say it. But attempting to minimize (or rationalize) what's going on by framing this simply as "censorship" is a bit rich.

With the current lack of Freedom of Speech that exists in Russia - it would be impossible for anyone to know the truth about anything that's going on. You, as a Russian citizen are told exactly what they want you to hear - nothing more, nothing, less. I imagine after a lifetime of living in this type of information cage one would only know one "reality" and that's the "reality (virtual reality)" they want you know.

The Russians I know and have befriended over the years that reside in the U.S. can see reality with crystal clarity.

[Moses]

===The Russians I know and have befriended over the years that reside in the U.S. can see reality with crystal clarity.===

Don't forget to tell them, what they are living in barbaric country - the only country in world which twice dropped nuclear bombs on heads of hundred thousands of civilians and after 77 years still didn't said even "we are sorry".

[Moses]

Oh, by the way, speaking about "total isolation": Germany and Poland just placed orders for Russian oil in 2023.

[Dodger]

Don't forget to tell them, what they are living in barbaric country ......

I would but they're a bit busy now housing refugees who are fleeing Russia.

[vnman]

Don't forget to tell them, what they are living in barbaric country - the only country in world which twice dropped nuclear bombs on heads of hundred thousands of civilians and after 77 years still didn't said even "we are sorry".

That justifies Russia to invade a sovereign country?

whataboutism!

[Moses]

That justifies Russia to invade a sovereign country?

whataboutism!

why should Russia avoid such action when every country from "Free World" does the same. Some still have colonies...

[Moses]

Loyalty to nationalistic regime in Ukraine has higher score than professionalism: Ukrainian clown-president just appointed sexologist Ilaschuk as ambassador to Bulgaria... she has zero diplomatic experience...

"Bulgaria? Where is it? Let's appoint there sexologist, that's enough for them..." (sarcasm)

[Dodger]

why should Russia avoid such action........

By "such action" are you referring to the Special Operation Putin waged to rid Ukraine of Nazi's? I'm only asking because this was the rationale /justification that Putin provided to the World when he first launched his attack of Ukraine.

As far as your statement "should Russia avoid such action". For the sake of objectivity - It would probably be better if you asked a Japanese person this question.

[cdnmatt]

Yeah, whatever happened to the Nazis anyway?

[Ninodf1]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/30/exiled-chief-rabbi-jews-should-leave-russia-while-they-can-pinchas-goldschmidt-war-ukraine

Maybe the treatment of Jewish communities across the world is a barometer of how sick a society/societies (and governments) have become.

[cdnmatt]

why should Russia avoid such action when every country from "Free World" does the same. Some still have colonies...

You seem to be under the impression that Russia is as strong, if not stronger than the West, or some such non-sense. Once again, although the West has invested a large amount of resources to this war that Russia initiated for no good reason, the West hasn't actually engaged yet, right?

You may be under the delusion that Russia is as strong if not stronger than the West, but it's just that -- a delusion. Russia can't even handle its own against Ukraine with Western support, so I'm not sure what Russia is trying to accomplish here.

Considering the absolute mockery the Russian military has made of itself on the world stage, it's not exactly far fetched to realize if shit ever hits the fan, Russia would not stand a chance against a NATO based invasion. Hell, there's even reports out there about how during their missile bombardments against the Ukrainian power grid, the Russian military is so inept, the Russian anti-air defense systems are shooting down their own missiles.

I really wish you Russians would pull your head out of your ass, and come back to reality. There's two possible conclusions to this war -- Russia accepts defeat, or Russia goes full bat shit and we all get to experience what nuclear winter feels like.

The current Russian military doctrine is banking on the fact support from the West for Ukraine will wane in the coming months and years, so they'll be able to more easily annex the country. That's it, that's what the Russian military leadership is banking on. I don't know, I'm not a military general or anything, but that sounds like a horrible militarry strategy to me.

[Dodger]

Yeah, whatever happened to the Nazis anyway?

Maybe they all moved to St. Petersburg to be closer to their friends.

[cdnmatt]

Crotia has now adopted the Euro and entered the Schengen zone. Sweden and Finland should be part of NATO within the next month. Moldova's application to the EU is still pending, although Moldova is asking for it to be expedited.

Pretty sure this isn't going how Putin planned.

I'll state again, the Russian military doctrine seems to be banking on the fact that Western support will wane in the coming months. They seem to forget that we've only had two world wars as a species, and the West has won both of them, so...

[Moses]

====Sweden and Finland should be part of NATO within the next month.====

Dreams-dreams... The best of best results will be if Finland will join NATO on July'23 session... Sweden still has to resolve problem btw Turkey and Kurds... Ankara will block any attempt of Sweden to join NATO till that time...

[cdnmatt]

NATO s just waiting for Hungary and Turkey to get their shit together and that's it. I promise you, it's not as huge of a hudle as you'd like it to to be.

[cdnmatt]

Not to mention, NATO is a bloc of 30 countries (soon to be 32), so things take time.

We in the West have a bloc of 30 countries that work as one when it comes to security. What does Russia have? Russia can't even get Kazakhstan to fall in line with its bullshit, so...

[cdnmatt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8UMrI6nC3k
Ok, another ~400 dead Russians and a training school turned into rubble.

What's this war even about again? I thought we were getting rid of Nazis or some such shit?

Us humans are so ridiculously stupid, it's embarrassing. I agree with Anthony Hokkins, all this shit is just a dream. It's nonsense that doesn't make any logical sense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuR5OhK5B_U&t=98s

When the fuck are the Russians going to wake up and realize the West is not your enemy?

[Moses]

===When the fuck are the Russians going to wake up and realize the West is not your enemy?===

When West will fulfill own promise not to move NATO to the East.

[cdnmatt]

===When the fuck are the Russians going to wake up and realize the West is not your enemy?===

When West will fulfill own promise not to move NATO to the East.

NATO isn't moving anything. It's other countries begging NATO, "can we please join? we'll make all the changes and concessions you desire, no worries, just please let us join NATO".

NATO is not actively expanding, but you are right, NATO does offer an open membership policy. If you are willing to conform to NATO standards, then you will be allowed under NATO's security umbrella.

NATO isn't actively expanding -- they're just allowing folks who want to join in. You as Russia may want to ask why is everyone wanting to join NATO instead of the other way around? If you guys are so right in your way forward, shouldn't countries be lining up to join WARSAW v2.0 or something?

[Moses]

====Ok, another ~400 dead Russians and a training school turned into rubble.====

They were stupid and used mobile phones and paid for it by own life. HIMARS used to hit them. HIMARS was destructed as well by Russian missile. Correct number is 89.

[cdnmatt]

Well, who knows... Russia I think says 68, and Ukraine says over 400 dead. It's war, propaganda all over, so who knows what the actual body count is. Doesn't matter, one dead Russian or Ukrainian is too many.

Doesn't change the fact the West has yet to actually engage in this war, nor has the West provided Ukraine with the advanced weaponary they're asking for. Russia seems to be quickly running out of options here, whereas the West hasn't even started yet. You do realize what the West is sending Ukraine is very minimal compared to what the West actually has at its disposal, right?

You do realize us humans have only had two world wars, and the West has won both of them, right? If you Russians want to view the West as weak, then it's going to be your demise.

Hundreds of thousands of your fellow countrymen have realized this little fact, and have fled the country in order to not get conscripted. At what point do you realize it's not worth it? At what point do you realize the West doesn't care, and doesn't view Russia as an enemy? Well, now we do obviously, but that's because you guys won't stop invading sovereign nations.

Hell, Angela Merkel spent her entire career trying to foster good relations with Russia, a decision which she now regrets. You do realize that's it's up to you as Russian citizens to put an end to the war and bloodshed, right? Why do you continue supporting the murdering of your fellow brothers, sisters, and cousins in Ukraine? It makes no sense, and the easiest way for this war to end is for you Russians to wake up, realize it's not worth it, march on the Kremlin and let Putin know he's out of a job.

[Moses]

====Doesn't change the fact the West has yet to actually engage in this war, nor has the West provided Ukraine with the advanced weaponary they're asking for. Russia seems to be quickly running out of options here, whereas the West hasn't even started yet. You do realize what the West is sending Ukraine is very minimal compared to what the West actually has at its disposal, right?=====

Ahahahaha... She used her skills to give time to Ukraine to collect forces and to prepare own attacks... She clearly stated it in her interviews at few past months.

=== us humans have only had two world wars, West has won both of them, right ===

First war was West against West, so victory of West is predictable. Second one Russia won for West and lost 20 millions of citizens, West "won" nuclear bombarding of civilians.

===You do realize that's it's up to you as Canadian citizens to put an end to the war and bloodshed, right?===
Just stop to supply them and this "story" will has fast end. But end will be anyway: 145:25.

===Why do you continue supporting the murdering of your fellow brothers, sisters, and cousins in Ukraine?===
Because it is war for protection of East of Ukraine where are living "fellow brothers, sisters, and cousins" who speaks Russian. Do you really think I will support Ukrainians nationalists who killed 2 of my relatives? Russia gave chance to Ukraine - Minsk agreement, and 8 years waited for it implementation. 8 years is enough, what do you think?

[Moses]

The New York Times wrote the same I told few weeks ago:

Ukraine is getting more and more skilled at knocking down drones, but there is a growing imbalance: Many of its defensive weapons like surface-to-air missiles cost far more than the drones do. And that, some military experts say, may favor Moscow over the long haul.

Artem Starosiek, the head of Molfar, a Ukrainian consultancy that supports the country’s war effort, estimated that it costs up to seven times more to down a drone with a missile than it does to launch one. That is an equation that the Kremlin may be banking on, some analysts say.


drones that Moscow has increasingly been relying on since October are relatively uncomplicated devices and fairly cheap, while the array of weapons used to shoot them out of the sky can be much pricier, according to experts. The self-destructing drones can cost as little as $20,000 to produce, while the cost of firing a surface-to-air missile can range from $140,000 for a Soviet-era S-300 to $500,000 for a missile from an American NASAMS

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/03/world/europe/ukraine-russia-drones.html

[cdnmatt]

The US spends $782 billion per-year on its military, and that's not including all of Europe, the UK, Japan, Australia, South Korea, et al. You're up against a well funded force, and shortly, that force will have Patriot missile systems deployed.

I find it kind of funny that Russia has to buy drones from Iran though.

[cdnmatt]

Because it is war for protection of East of Ukraine where are living "fellow brothers, sisters, and cousins" who speaks Russian.

You're in support of allowing 44 million people to literally freeze to death. Some sign of love and affection that is.

[Moses]

You're in support of allowing 44 million people to literally freeze to death. Some sign of love and affection that is.

So, where was your tongue, when Ukraine cut out electricity and water from Crimea in 2014? There are living 2 mln + Should you care about them also? Something like " literally freeze to death" 8 years ago?

By the way: your logic is strange - Russia should care about Ukrainians, but Ukraine shouldn't care about own citizens in Crimea?? At least their clown-president non-stop speaks "Crimea is Ukraine" and you support them.

[Moses]

I find it kind of funny that Russia has to buy drones from Iran though.

Why not? They are cheap as dirt, "made in garage on knees", and make Ukrainians busy all days and nights, forcing use expensive missiles for to fight with peace of iron.

[cdnmatt]

So, where was your tongue, when Ukraine cut out electricity and water from Crimea in 2014? There are living 2 mln + Should you care about them also? Something like " literally freeze to death" 8 years ago?

By the way: your logic is strange - Russia should care about Ukrainians, but Ukraine shouldn't care about own citizens in Crimea?? At least their clown-president non-stop speaks "Crimea is Ukraine" and you support them.

How was that Ukraine's fault? Crimea was part of Russia at the time, hence it was the Russian government's responsibility to provide the residents of Crimea with energy and water.

Obviously, Ukrain isn't going to support the government of the country who invaded them.

[Moses]

How was that Ukraine's fault? Crimea was part of Russia at the time, hence it was the Russian government's responsibility to provide the residents of Crimea with energy and water.

Obviously, Ukrain isn't going to support the government of the country who invaded them.

Great. So you are in my logical trap now.

Indeed, Russia did it: it took only 2 months after start of blockade to lay 4 high-power underwater cables via Azov sea and build up whole power structure in Crimea. So, nobody was "frozen to death" in Crimea despite of efforts of Ukraine.

Now is time to Ukraine to care about their infrastructure. Why should Russia care?

12898

[Moses]

Ukraine just declined 24 hours "Christmas peace" offered by Russia.

*Orthodox Christmas is tonight.

[cdnmatt]

Ukraine just declined 24 hours "Christmas peace" offered by Russia.

*Orthodox Christmas is tonight.

Russia has a long track record of being deceptive and not keeping their word, so why would anyone believe them? Not to mention, Russia had no problem bombing the hell out of Ukraine all through the Christmas on Dec 25th and New Years, so...

[Moses]

Russia has a long track record of being deceptive and not keeping their word

Well, lets count "long track"... please name here, how did you say? "long track"? well lets say 5 points...

and while your brains are boiling, I will remind you list for XX century:
- it is not Russia invaded to USA, but USA invaded to Russia,
- it is not Russia invaded to Germany, but Germany invaded to Russia, twice
- it is not Russia invaded to France, but France invaded to Russia,
- it is not Russia invaded to Canada, but Canada invaded to Russia,
- it is not Russia invaded to Japan, but Japan invaded to Russia,
- it is not Russia invaded to Italy, but Italy invaded to Russia,
- it is not Russia invaded to Romania, but Romania invaded to Russia

and I may continue to count... now is time for your counter...

[Moses]

Here is "small" list of international agreements what are still not signed or signed but not ratified by USA:

1930 Forced Labour Convention International Labour Organization signed, not ratified
1948 Freedom of Association and Protection of the Right to Organise Convention International Labour Organization not signed
1949 Right to Organise and Collective Bargaining Convention, 1949 International Labour Organization not signed
1950 Convention for the Suppression of the Traffic in Persons and of the Exploitation of the Prostitution of Others UN Secretary-General not signed
1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees UN Secretary-General only 1967 protocol
1951 Equal Remuneration Convention International Labour Organization signed, not ratified
1954 Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons UN Secretary-General not signed
1958 Discrimination (Employment and Occupation) Convention International Labour Organization signed, not ratified
1960 Convention against Discrimination in Education UNESCO signed, not ratified
1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness UN Secretary-General not signed
1962 Convention on Consent to Marriage, Minimum Age for Marriage and Registration of Marriages UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1964 Employment Policy Convention, 1964 International Labour Organization signed, not ratified
1966 International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1966 First Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights UN Secretary-General not signed
1969 Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty Bilateral US–Soviet treaty ratified 1972, withdrew 2002
1973 Minimum Age Convention, 1973 International Labour Organization signed, not ratified
1977 American Convention on Human Rights Organization of American States signed, not ratified
1977 Protocol I (Geneva Conventions amendment) UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1977 Protocol II (Geneva Conventions amendment) UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1979 Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) UN Secretary-General signed 1980, not ratified[3]
1979 Salt II Bilateral US–Soviet treaty signed 1979, withdrew 1980
1979 Moon Treaty UN Secretary-General not signed
1981 Occupational Safety and Health Convention, 1981 International Labour Organization signed, not ratified
1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) UN Secretary-General not signed
1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty Bilateral US–Soviet treaty ratified 1988, withdrew 2019
1989 Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights UN Secretary-General not signed
1989 Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) UN Secretary-General signed 1995, not ratified
1989 Basel Convention UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1990 International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families UN Secretary-General not signed
1992 Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1994 Convention on the Safety of United Nations and Associated Personnel UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1996 Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1997 Kyoto Protocol UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
1997 Ottawa Treaty (Mine Ban Treaty) UN Secretary-General not signed
1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court UN Secretary-General signed 1998, withdrew 2002
1999 Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (OP-CEDAW) UN Secretary-General not signed
1999 Civil Law Convention on Corruption Council of Europe not signed
2002 Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture (OPCAT) UN Secretary-General not signed
2007 International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance (ICPPED) UN Secretary-General not signed
2007 Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities UN Secretary-General signed 2009, not ratified
2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) UN Secretary-General not signed
2011 Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) Government of Japan signed, not ratified
2013 Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) UN Secretary-General signed, not ratified
2016 Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) signed 2016, withdrew 2017

[cdnmatt]

My god, is Russia ever about to get crushed this March / April with the weapon shipments that are coming in from the West.

This whole thing is just so sad. Millions of people in Ukraine literally freezing to death, loads of boys and girls in Russia going to bed starving every night because their father and the bread winner of the house was conscripted, and the list is endless.

Now the question becomes, what happens when Russia becomes a failed state yet again? With these shipments that are coming into Ukraine over teh next few months seem to signal the West is fed up with this bullshit, and willing to put an end to it. Ukraine is slated to receive a massive amount of heavy weaponary from all over -- US, UK, Germany, France, Czech Republic, Poland, et al.

Once Russia falls, there's going to be a power vacuum. Who's going to fill it?

[Moses]

==== loads of boys and girls in Russia going to bed starving every night because their father and the bread winner of the house was conscripted, and the list is endless.====

who told this fantasy to you?
families of mobilized receive $2000 monthly + one time payment $1000-$4000 (depends on region of living) + all bank loans are freezed till father return + 6 months. All conscripts have insurance $75000. Their children have free education in UNI or college.

[cdnmatt]

Moses, Russia lost this war the day the invaded back in Fev 2022.

Just look at what the next shipments of weaponary from the West that are being sent to Ukraine are going to be. Just simply looking at those shipments, you can tell the West is fed up with this bullshit, and is ready to put an end to this war once and for all.

Russia will become a failed state (again), and there's no question about that in my mind. There's zero chance Russia can withstand the amount of pressure that's being put on it.

The question now is, what happens once Russia fails? Who fills that power vacuum?

[Moses]

Matty, 145:25... West will prolong war till last Ukrainian?

[cdnmatt]

Zelensky pledged this war will be over this year in 2023. Considering the fire power Ukraine is receiving over the next few months, I tend to agree with him.

Moses, you said this war would be over in a couple weeks 10 months ago, so you're not exactly a trusted bastion of knowledge.

How you are still in support of this war is beyond me. You don't seem to realize how badly this is going to go for Russia. What's Russia going to do once the war ends? You do realize Russia doesn't even really have a skilled labor force anymore, right? They're all either dead or fled the country.

You don't seem to yet realize this, but Putin has fucked Russia for decades to come, to the point Russia may actually become a failed state in the near future. Yet, you still just blindly and patriotically support the war. It's mind boggling.

[cdnmatt]

Matty, 145:25... West will prolong war till last Ukrainian?


Not to be overly calice or anything here, but you do realize you basically just openly called for the genocide of the Ukrainian population, right?

What ever happned to the targetted strikes against the Nazis?

[Moses]

Zelensky pledged this war will be over this year in 2023. Considering the fire power Ukraine is receiving over the next few months, I tend to agree with him.

Moses, you said this war would be over in a couple weeks 10 months ago, so you're not exactly a trusted bastion of knowledge.

How you are still in support of this war is beyond me. You don't seem to realize how badly this is going to go for Russia. What's Russia going to do once the war ends? You do realize Russia doesn't even really have a skilled labor force anymore, right? They're all either dead or fled the country.

You don't seem to yet realize this, but Putin has fucked Russia for decades to come, to the point Russia may actually become a failed state in the near future. Yet, you still just blindly and patriotically support the war. It's mind boggling.

Is it your medias told you?
Border migration report shows 80% of migrated labor forces already are back to Russia, rest continue to work remote - mainly IT specialists.
Financial year results shows budget surplus about 2 trillions of rubles.

All West got: more tight union of China and Russia. That exactly I predicted in November 2021.

[cdnmatt]

Whatever, up to you.

Let's see how things look come end of April.

[cdnmatt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt6IjOd0-Z4

I'm confident, the Nazis were hanging out in that exact apartment building.

This summer can't come soon enough when Ukraine and the West together put an end to this shit for once and all.

[Moses]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt6IjOd0-Z4

I'm confident, the Nazis were hanging out in that exact apartment building.

This summer can't come soon enough when Ukraine and the West together put an end to this shit for once and all.

Matty, I have.bad news for you: Turkey just canceled Sweden visit of foreign ministry. Looks like Sweden will not accepted to NATO even in July23.

[Moses]

Whatever, up to you.

Let's see how things look come end of April.

Yeah, Mr. Biden-Alzhaimer already dreamed about 200 Rub per $1

Russia’s Seaborne Crude Flows Surge to Highest Since April
A jump in Baltic shipments helped crude volumes rise to 3.8 million barrels a day last week
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-16/russia-s-seaborne-crude-flows-surge-to-their-highest-since-april?srnd=premium-europe

How did you said? "sanctions"?
+30% of oil sales in one week

[cdnmatt]

You betcha, you ittle Russian superstar, you.

I have absolutely no idea why Russia or anyone for that fact would ever dream of picking a war with the US and its allies, but whatever, that's on you...

[cdnmatt]

Matty, I have.bad news for you: Turkey just canceled Sweden visit of foreign ministry. Looks like Sweden will not accepted to NATO even in July23.


it doesn't matter. You do realize Russia picked a fight with the USA< UK, Australia, Japan, Sourth Korea and the entirety of Europe, right?

You do realize that Russia is currently on its backlegs, scramblings and gather conscripts from prions, right? At the same time, the West has only expended about 5% of its firepower. You know this, right?

[vnman]

How did you said? "sanctions"?
+30% of oil sales in one week

Price? India and China are laughing all the way to the bank.


Here is what's coming!
The CREA is recommending stepping up the pressure by further lowering the price cap on Russian crude oil to $25 to $35 a barrel — which would slash Russia's oil export revenue by a further €100 million, or about $108 million, a day.


And that will make this look like profit:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/10/world/europe/russia-deficit-economy.html

[Moses]

Price? India and China are laughing all the way to the bank.


Here is what's coming!
The CREA is recommending stepping up the pressure by further lowering the price cap on Russian crude oil to $25 to $35 a barrel — which would slash Russia's oil export revenue by a further €100 million, or about $108 million, a day.


And that will make this look like profit:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/10/world/europe/russia-deficit-economy.html

I have bad news for you too: income from oil sales in 2022 grew about 32%. Rosneft (RusOil) paid all-time-record high dividends...
Country trade balance in 2022 has been closed with never seen at past $233 billions proficiency

[vnman]

I have bad news for you too: income from oil sales in 2022 grew about 32%. Rosneft (RusOil) paid all-time-record high dividends...
Country trade balance in 2022 has been closed with never seen at past $233 billions proficiency

Russia is booming as ever!


Are you in Russia btw?

[cdnmatt]

VNMan, don't worry about Moses. He's totally delusional.

Russia's GDP contracted by ~7.5% in 2022, their soldiers don't have food, uniforms, weapons, nothing.

It's at the point the majority of Russian people don't even know why there is a war going on. They just know there's a war, but they don't know why.

With the amount of weaponary Ukraine is getting over the next few months, the war should be over sometime this year.

[maump]

I have avoided reading this thread because none of us really know all the truth. But I see nothing good coming from this war. nothing good for Russia, Ukraine, US or its allies. Nothing good for world hunger, climate, or general economies. the war will enrich a few already rich and kill or (economically) wound millions.

so sad to see, so unnecessary, so pointless.

My future hope for mankind wanes, much more war will come. I almost would like to see a good nuclear exchange so that we can REALLY remember the horror of full scale war between great powers.

Its time for the aliens to step in and help us...... we cannot help ourselves.

[cdnmatt]

Right, there's literally no benefits to anyone in this war. It's nothing more than an old man's delusions.

[vnman]

VNMan, don't worry about Moses.

I am a little worried. Don't forget that he is spreading LGBT propaganda and his lord and savior has put some pretty draconian laws in place.

[Moses]

Russia is booming as ever!


Are you in Russia btw?

Yeah, I got my dividends and now traveling. So right now, after Hong Kong and China mainland, I'm in Vietnam - Central part (Hoi An, Da Nang and Hue). But second day here is raining, so tomorrow I will move to Saigon. In plans - Thailand after Tet in Saigon.

[Moses]

VNMan, don't worry about Moses. He's totally delusional.

Yes-yes, while I'm living in Russia and communicate with relatives in Ukraine, I'm totally "delusional", but you from Canada know truth... sure-sure... read more your fake medias...

Matty, do you still trust to your sources? Maybe you still think rouble is 200 per 1 US dollar?

By the way: GDP contracted less than 3%, and less than 1% in GDP PPP.

[cdnmatt]

Yeah, yeah... Russia is doing the world a favor and getting rid of the Ukainian Nazis.

Seriously, at what point do you stop believing your own bullshit propoganda?

[cdnmatt]

Look at that, even Canada is pitching in 200 APCs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAmM8kRUFCY

Quite obviously, the West is planning an absolutely massive military operation within Ukraine. The sheer amount of weaponary Ukraine is about to receive is almost mind blowing.

Moses, I hope you realize your lord and savior Putin is probably going to get assasinated and end up with a bullet in the back of his head in the near future, right?

[dab69]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstiel.ru%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fputin_krab2.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=eadbe47e3eb0b0e46dbcaf31c075b901e0484673622bf6 ddd42e3643357b3eef&ipo=images

[Dragonman]

Yes-yes, while I'm living in Russia and communicate with relatives in Ukraine, I'm totally "delusional", but you from Canada know truth... sure-sure... read more your fake medias...

Matty, do you still trust to your sources? Maybe you still think rouble is 200 per 1 US dollar?

By the way: GDP contracted less than 3%, and less than 1% in GDP PPP.

The data on why this result has occurred are interesting. "Before the conflict in Ukraine began, the Russian government had expected GDP growth of 3 percent in 2022. Manufacturing industries and wholesale and retail trade were among the sectors that declined in 2022, while agriculture, hospitality, construction and mining all registered growth. Public administration and “military security” gained 4.1 percent in 2022, the statistics agency said, adding to a 3.3 percent rise in 2021. President Vladimir Putin in January paid tribute to the defence sector for supporting the economy. Increased military spending is smoothing out a drop in the country’s industrial production, analysts say." (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/21/russias-economy-contracted-2-1-in-2022).

For another viewpoint, read https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/01/03/what-really-happened-with-russias-economy-in-2022-a79856, particularly the comments that state why the GDP figures are misleading and the comments by the economist Janis Kluge of the German Institute for International and Security Affairs (SWP) on the effect of sanctions: "This means Western sanctions “basically shrunk Russia’s economy by 10%,” he said."

[Moses]

For another viewpoint, read https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/01/03/what-really-happened-with-russias-economy-in-2022-a79856, particularly the comments that state why the GDP figures are misleading and the comments by the economist Janis Kluge of the German Institute for International and Security Affairs (SWP) on the effect of sanctions: "This means Western sanctions “basically shrunk Russia’s economy by 10%,” he said."

Yeah... politics will always explain why their forecasts not became true...

10% shrunk you told? Real number is 2.1%... not 20%, not 10%, but -2.1%. Russia spend time for to make new logistic, to change customers, to make new agreements.
International trade of Russia 2022 grew 9.1%. How did you say? "Sanctions"? Export grew 19.9% and became highest in whole history of modern Russia.

On the past week Federal Customs published statistic. Import of "sanctioned" Intel processors grew almost 10% in 2022. When somebody doesn't want to sell there always will be someone who want to make deal on the globe.

I told from beginning, in 2021 yet: it is not possible to exclude Russia from global economic.

[Dragonman]

... International trade of Russia 2022 grew 9.1%. How did you say? "Sanctions"? Export grew 19.9% and became highest in whole history of modern Russia.
On the past week Federal Customs published statistic. Import of "sanctioned" Intel processors grew almost 10% in 2022. When somebody doesn't want to sell there always will be someone who want to make deal on the globe..

As usual, you do not cite sources for your information, so it is necessary to check more reliable information. Interestingly, "The Federal Customs Service has partially resumed the publication of foreign trade customs statistics. From the above data it follows that the turnover of Russia's foreign trade in 2022 grew by 8.1% (sic) year-on-year and reached $850.5 billion." (https://www.oreanda-news.com/en/gosudarstvo/russia-s-foreign-trade-turnover-grew-by-8-1-over-the-year/article1468578/, 13/03.2023). 8.1%, not 9.1%

The 19.9% figure for export growth is selective: "The FCS provides data on the results of trade in 2022 for 71 types of goods. It follows from the data that over the year Russia increased the export of mineral fuels, oil and products of their distillation, bituminous substances by 42.8% - up to $383.7 billion. Exports of food products and agricultural raw materials in monetary terms increased by 14.8%, supplies of fertilizers - by 54.3% - to $19.295 billion. Imports of fertilizers increased 2.1 times - to $351.6 million. In April 2022, the Russian Federal Customs Service suspended the publication of data on imports and exports in order to avoid "incorrect estimates and speculation." (https://www.oreanda-news.com/en/gosudarstvo/russia-s-foreign-trade-turnover-grew-by-8-1-over-the-year/article1468578/). In other words, the Russian data need to be treated carefully because they do not represent a complete picture, as the Russian Federal Customs Service itself acknowledges.

The reference to the supply of sanctioned intel processors is probably a reference to the activities of the Turkish firm Azu International Ltd Sti, among others. Overall, however, "A spokesperson for the U.S. Department of Commerce said, “Since the start of the invasion, Russia’s access to semiconductors from all sources has been slashed by nearly 70 percent thanks to the actions of the unprecedented 38 nation coalition that has come together to respond to (Russian President Vladimir) Putin’s aggression. It is no surprise that Russia is working hard to circumvent controls.” (https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/ukraine-crisis-russia-tech-middlemen/) (13/12/2022).

You can continue to boast about little percentage wins, but the "special military operation" big win that was supposed to be achieved in a matter of weeks if not days still eludes Putin more than a year after it began. And there are signs that the current situation does not augur well for Russian success. For example, the decree by the Zaporizhzhia Oblast declaring occupied Melitopol as the oblast capital as a temporary measure until the city of Zaporizhzhia is controlled by Russia is likely tacit acknowledgement that Russian forces are highly unlikely to seize previously planned major objectives in the near future - and Russian forces have never occupied the city of Zaporizhzhia.

I think the English-language expression for the current Russian situation is "whistling in the dark,"

[Moses]

======As usual, you do not cite sources for your information, so it is necessary to check more reliable information. Interestingly, "The Federal Customs Service has partially resumed the publication of foreign trade customs statistics. From the above data it follows that the turnover of Russia's foreign trade in 2022 grew by 8.1% (sic) year-on-year and reached $850.5 billion." (https://www.oreanda-news.com/en/gosu...rticle1468578/, 13/03.2023). 8.1%, not 9.1%====

No. It is exactly 9.1% surplus. WTF is "oreanda" is it second name or alias of Russian Federal statistic burau? If not - forget about their bullshit...

====The 19.9% figure for export growth is selective=====

Again from the same strange source? Dear, use first hand source, Google will translate. "Oreanda" again wrote bullshit: Since 2022 Russia doesn't publish full statistic for not to help to "friends" targeting sanctions. Only 72 general positions are opened in figures. But total number summarize everything. And 19.9% of growing export are 19.9%. Like you it of not.

For example:
- in 2023 Russia became #2 supplier of LNG to EU. Spain, France and Portugal are main buyers. EU buys LNG from Russia more than from Qatar (it was #2 in 2022). Money. Profit. Who cares about sanctions if LNG from Russia is more cheaper because of distance?
- in 2023 Morocco suddenly starts to export to EU 10 times more diesel fuel than in 2022. Do you think nobody knows source of this fuel?
- a lot of Russians moved to Georgia, Kazakhstan and other republic of formerly USSR at past autumn. To Armenia moved about 100.000. About 50.000 of them already are back to Russia, but from rest 50.000 only 3.600 accepted Armenian citizenship. Rest created a lot of local companies and started business by export of sanctioned goods to Russia. Now Armenia buys 8 times more computers, software, cars from EU and US than year before.

===="A spokesperson for the U.S. Department of Commerce said, “Since the start of the invasion, Russia’s access to semiconductors from all sources has been slashed by nearly 70 percent====
Yeah, they think so. Reality is: in 2022 9% more Intel processors crossed Russian border than in 2021. Federal customs knows it for sure: they collect taxes for importing goods.

[Dragonman]

Moses,

You commented, "WTF is "oreanda" is it second name or alias of Russian Federal statistic burau? If not - forget about their bullshit..." .

For your information, "The Oreanda-News agency was founded in August 1994 in Moscow, becoming one of the first independent news agencies in contemporary Russia, which remains now. The name of the agency was given by founders in memory of the striking trip to one of the suburbs of Yalta.....Since 2007 the headquarters of the agency is located in St. Petersburg." (https://www.oreanda-news.com/en/about/). Its Russian-language website is at https://www.oreanda-news.com/. .

In reality, it was not "9% more intel processors (that) crossed Russian border than in 2021," but intel chips! "In 2022, 782,000 Intel chips were imported into Russia, which is 9% more than in 2021, a source told the publication, citing data from the Federal Customs Service. Deliveries of AMD processors for the same period fell by half, to 143 thousand units. The volume of deliveries of other companies increased by 2.5 times, up to 102,000 chips. Chinese and Korean manufacturers fell into this category. Another source of the publication said that the total supply of all microcircuits (including processors) in 2022 decreased by 19%, to 511 thousand pieces. At the same time, the customs value of products almost doubled and amounted to $2.1 billion, or 157 billion rubles. [Коммерсантъ]" (https://www.gamingdeputy.com/deliveries-of-intel-processors-to-russia-grew-in-2022/). So, 9% more intel chips versus some 50% fewer AMD processors. Win some, lose some.

With regard to Turkish, Moroccan, etc., exports of diesel into the EU, the source of the fuel is not unknown to EU authorities, e.g., "There is nothing illegal about either trade and there won’t be after the EU’s imports ban. However, the bloc will join with G7 nations in capping the price of fuels for anyone wanting to use European tankers or industry standard insurance to deliver cargoes to other markets. To be clear, the current flows to Morocco and Turkey don’t do enough to replace the huge lost demand that Russia will need to replace when Europe stops importing" (https://english.alarabiya.net/business/energy/2023/02/01/Turkey-and-Morocco-are-emerging-as-demand-sources-for-Russian-diesel-before-EU-ban). Russia still needs to find markets for its oil and other exports.

As your other claims about still without sources, I think you're still whistling in the dark.

[Moses]

I think you're still whistling in the dark.

You should think more. Then it may became your skill after a while.

Depended or independent agencies here - all - have the same source: Federal statistic burau, which has info from border - from Federal customs.

[Dragonman]

You should think more. Then it may became your skill after a while.

Depended or independent agencies here - all - have the same source: Federal statistic burau, which has info from border - from Federal customs.

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of "whistling in the dark"? I believe a Russian equivalent is "показной оптимизм" (which translates, I believe, as "ostentatious optimism").

Here are some statistics that are not from the Federal Statistics Bureau. " Russia has suffered more combat fatalities in Ukraine in the first year of the war than in all of its wars since World War II combined. In addition, the average rate of Russian regular and irregular soldiers killed per month in Ukraine over the first year of the war was at least 25 times the number killed per month in Russia’s war in Chechnya and at least 35 times the number killed per month in the Soviet Union’s war in Afghanistan.........there have been approximately 60,000 to 70,000 combat fatalities between February 2022 and February 2023. These estimates include regular Russian soldiers from the Russian armed forces, Rosgvardiya, Federal Security Service, and Federal Guard Service; fighters from pro-Russian militias, such as the Donetsk People’s Militia and Luhansk People’s Militia; and contractors from private military companies such as the Wagner Group. Overall, Russia has suffered roughly 200,000 to 250,000 total casualties—personnel wounded, killed, and missing—during the first year of the war. These casualty estimates also include regular Russian soldiers, militia fighters, and private contractors from the Wagner Group.....the number of Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine during the first year of the war was greater than the entire number of Russian soldiers killed in every war the Soviet Union and Russia fought in since World War II combined. These wars included the invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia; the limited Soviet involvement in such countries as Angola, North Yemen, Vietnam, and Ethiopia; the Sino-Soviet border conflict; the decade-long war in Afghanistan; Georgia; Syria; and Ukraine between 2014 and February 2022, which occurred primarily in Crimea and the Donbas......The rate of attrition is also much higher in Ukraine than in any Soviet or Russian war since World War II. Russia suffered an average of roughly 5,000 to 5,800 regular and irregular soldiers killed per month in Ukraine over the first year of the war. In comparison, Russia suffered somewhere between 12,000 to 25,000 fatalities in Chechnya over a 15-year period (with a three-year pause), an average rate of between roughly 95 and 185 soldiers killed per month. The Soviet Union also suffered roughly 14,000 to 16,000 combat fatalities in Afghanistan, an average rate of between roughly 130 and 145 soldiers killed per month." (The Bloody Toll of Russia’s War in Ukraine, Seth G. Jones, Sunday, March 19, 2023, 10:01 AM, https://www.lawfareblog.com/bloody-toll-russias-war-ukraine). . The author of this article, Seth G. Jones, is senior vice president and director of the International Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

"Ukrainian official figures put the Russian death toll at "Russian soldiers killed: between 5,937 and 139,000. ....From the early days of the war, casualty counts for Russian soldiers have varied widely — depending on the source. Ukraine raised its estimate of Russian soldiers killed in the conflict to more than 139,000 on Wednesday. These numbers have been updated frequently through the Facebook page for the country’s General Staff of the Armed Forces. In its first update on casualties since March, Russia claimed in late September that there had been 5,937 Russian military deaths. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in April that there had been “significant losses of troops, and it’s a huge tragedy for us.” (Ukraine War in Data: More than 500,000 Russians have left their country since the war began. https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?22626-The-Brink-of-War/page263, February 16, 2023).

As I said in an earlier posting, that you ignored, you can claim the little wins (i.e., imported chip numbers and increased diesel exports, the level of inflation or deflation, the price of your winter heating gas, and so), but the big win still eludes Russia and Putin after more than a year - and an end is not in sight.

[arsenal]

The pair of you need an ETT. Emergency Thailand Trip.

[Dragonman]

The pair of you need an ETT. Emergency Thailand Trip.

So true - but health situation and age do not permit it.

[Moses]

The pair of you need an ETT. Emergency Thailand Trip.

I spend month in Thailand and Vietnam in Jan-Feb 2023 already.

[Moses]

===Russian soldiers killed: between 5,937 and 139,000===
===These numbers have been updated frequently through the Facebook page===

In these sentences everything is "perfect" - how precisely it counted, trusted media for publication... do you need me to publish on FB numbers "from 3 persons till about 108"? And then I will show it as a proof...

==="Center for Strategic and International Studies" ===
just simple CIA propaganda for to influence on morale of both sides. You know it, I know it, why you bring it here?

P.S. nobody reads paragraphs longer than 4-5 lines on the web. Each next line lower number of readers on about 20%. People are lazy.

[Dragonman]

===Russian soldiers killed: between 5,937 and 139,000===
===These numbers have been updated frequently through the Facebook page===

In these sentences everything is "perfect" - how precisely it counted, trusted media for publication... do you need me to publish on FB numbers "from 3 persons till about 108"? And then I will show it as a proof...

==="Center for Strategic and International Studies" ===
just simple CIA propaganda for to influence on morale of both sides. You know it, I know it, why you bring it here?

P.S. nobody reads paragraphs longer than 4-5 lines on the web. Each next line lower number of readers on about 20%. People are lazy.

The figures cited above are as precise as those quoted by Komsomolskaya Pravda in March 2022 - which reported that that 9,861 Russian troops had died and 16,153 had been injured since Russian President Vladimir Putin launched the unprovoked invasion in late February. However, the figures were later removed because Komsomolskaya Pravda claimed it had been hacked. The figures were embarrassing because they were far higher than those admitted by the Kremlin, which claimed the very precise figure oonly 498 Russian troops having been killed. So, which version of Komsomolskaya Pravda to believe?

The Center for Strategic and International Studies lists major funding from defense contractors such as Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, and General Atomics, but not the CIA. It is associated with Georgetown University, not the US Government.

You comment that no one reads more than 4-5 lines on the web is based on well-conducted research or personal experience. Many of your own postings exceed this length - which is why my responses do.

[Moses]

====launched the unprovoked invasion ====

this is most cynic and lying declaration

before conflict over 16.000 Russians were killed in Eastern Ukraine

June 2, 2014 first Ukrainian rocket strike in peaceful Lugansk


https://youtu.be/8xkGmxOZ-Z8

[Dragonman]

====launched the unprovoked invasion ====

this is most cynic and lying declaration

before conflict over 16.000 Russians were killed in Eastern Ukraine

Crocodile tears.

17 July 2014 - 298 innocent foreign civilians aboard MH 17 shot down by Russian and Ukrainian separatists.

On 17 November 2022, following a trial in absentia in the Netherlands, two Russians and a Ukrainian separatist were found guilty of murdering all 298 people on board flight MH17. The Dutch court also ruled that Russia was in control of the separatist forces fighting in eastern Ukraine at the time.

[cdnmatt]

Russian's are about to get their asses handed to them, which really sucks and is sad to see. This is especially true considering there's reporting in the West that kids in grade 10 who are 16 years old are now being conscripted from Moscow and sent to the front lines.

There's tons of Leopard, Challenger, and M1 Abram tanks coming. Poland is also sending some fighter jets, and you can expect other countries to follow suit.

Guaranteed, Ukraine is currently preparing a massive counter offensive, which will probably end the war once and for all.

All the while, China is sending off spy baloons for some reason. Do they not have satellites, drones, spy planes, or anything else? What went through their minds to think baloons are a good idea? I actually feel bad for the F35 pilots... "alright, after your years of vigorous training, it's come to this.... we need you to take to the skies and shoot down a baloon".

[Moses]

===Russian's are about to get their asses handed to them, which really sucks and is sad to see. This is especially true considering there's reporting in the West that kids in grade 10 who are 16 years old are now being conscripted from Moscow and sent to the front lines.===

Dear, who is your dealer?
Here is opposite process: age of conscripts who must service in army for 1 year training changes from 18 to 21. Law is already in parliament, will be voted on next week.

Reminder: nobody may be mobilized here to "front line" until he served 1 year of training in training camp as trainee conscript.

[Moses]

===17 July 2014 - 298 innocent foreign civilians aboard MH 17 shot down by Russian and Ukrainian separatists.===

Darling, what is more early? Jun 2 or July 17?

[Dragonman]

===17 July 2014 - 298 innocent foreign civilians aboard MH 17 shot down by Russian and Ukrainian separatists.===

Darling, what is more early? Jun 2 or July 17?

1. I am not, and never will be, your "darling."

2. Your response indicates that you do not understand the significance of the shooting down by Russian and Ukrainian separatists of a foreign airliner carrying foreign passengers as a criminal act. The dates are irrelevant. If the Malaysians, or anyone else, had shot down without provocation, an airliner carrying Russians tourists, your response would be less frivolous.

[Dragonman]

===17 July 2014 - 298 innocent foreign civilians aboard MH 17 shot down by Russian and Ukrainian separatists.===

Darling, what is more early? Jun 2 or July 17?

In my earlier posting, I said your response indicated you did not understand the significance of the shooting down of MH17 and that it was also frivolous.

On March 17, 2023, the United Nations aviation council voted to hear a case against Russia over the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, the foreign ministers of Australia and the Netherlands said. ICAO had earlier (March 3) stated that it had authority to hear the case brought by the Australians and the Dutch. The case concerns the paying of compensation for the downing.

Earlier this year, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled that Russia must be held accountable for its role in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. Not only to the Netherlands but also to the relatives of the victims.

The timing of the downing is irrelevant.

[Moses]

===The timing of the downing is irrelevant.====
This is bullshit...

Time of downing is important: West closed eyes on Ukrainian bombing in June 2014, cities with Russians on the East of Ukraine were victims of it. Then Russia presumable send "Buk" or "Buks" to rebels of Donetsk and Lugansk for to protect civilians. And rebels shooted down almost all Ukrainian military aviation there. Probably MH17 was recognized as a military aircrafts and downed in July.

Ukrainian nationalistic govt and West are 100% responsible for that consequence, but tried to reload own fault to Russia.

===Earlier this year, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled that Russia must be held accountable for its role in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. Not only to the Netherlands but also to the relatives of the victims.===

Since European Council of Human Rights voted what Russia isn't its member anymore it also has consequence: ECHR has no jurisdiction in Russia anymore. Nobody cares about their decision here.

===On March 17, 2023, the United Nations aviation council voted to hear a case against Russia over the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, the foreign ministers of Australia and the Netherlands said. ICAO had earlier (March 3) stated that it had authority to hear the case brought by the Australians and the Dutch. The case concerns the paying of compensation for the downing===

Nor ICAO, nor UN aviation council have mandate to make decisions about finances. So their decisions cost less than piece of paper for to print it.

[Dragonman]

===The timing of the downing is irrelevant.====
This is bullshit...

Time of downing is important: West closed eyes on Ukrainian bombing in June 2014, cities with Russians on the East of Ukraine were victims of it. Then Russia presumable send "Buk" or "Buks" to rebels of Donetsk and Lugansk for to protect civilians. And rebels shooted down almost all Ukrainian military aviation there. Probably MH17 was recognized as a military aircrafts and downed in July.

Ukrainian nationalistic govt and West are 100% responsible for that consequence, but tried to reload own fault to Russia.

===Earlier this year, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled that Russia must be held accountable for its role in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. Not only to the Netherlands but also to the relatives of the victims.===

Since European Council of Human Rights voted what Russia isn't its member anymore it also has consequence: ECHR has no jurisdiction in Russia anymore. Nobody cares about their decision here.

===On March 17, 2023, the United Nations aviation council voted to hear a case against Russia over the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, the foreign ministers of Australia and the Netherlands said. ICAO had earlier (March 3) stated that it had authority to hear the case brought by the Australians and the Dutch. The case concerns the paying of compensation for the downing===

Nor ICAO, nor UN aviation council have mandate to make decisions about finances. So their decisions cost less than piece of paper for to print it.

1. MH17 belonged to Malaysian Airlines, not a European airline. MH17 was flying above the restricted airspace limits imposed by the legally-responsible Ukrainian government, and was clearly not a military aircraft, except to incompetent observers.

2. Russia may not now be a member of the European Convention on Human Rights but was a signatory state to the European Convention on Human Rights at the time of the shooting down, the period at issue in this case. According to the Council of Europe, "the European Court of Human Rights remains competent to deal with applications against Russia concerning actions or omissions occurring up until September 16, 2022." (https://www.dw.com/en/mh17-case-against-russia-is-admissible-european-court-rules/a-64511609).

3. You claim that "Nor ICAO, nor UN aviation council have mandate to make decisions about finances. So their decisions cost less than piece of paper for to print it." However, "The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Council in Montreal has upheld the Council’s jurisdiction to hear Australia and the Netherlands’ case against Russia for the downing of Flight MH17" (Penny Wong, Australian Foreign Minister, https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/media-release/icao-council-decision-jurisdiction-mh17-legal-proceedings). And the "U.N. aviation council votes to hear MH17 case against Russia" (https://www.reuters.com/world/un-aviation-council-votes-hear-mh17-case-against-russia-2023-03-17/).

4. Russia used to have a seat on the ICAO council but did not receive enough votes to be re-elected in October 2022 even though, in an unprecedented move, it asked for a second vote, which was denied. Russia, along with the G7, China, Brazil and Australia, had held a spot as a "state of chief importance in air transport" on ICAO's 36-member council. The move was seen as a "rebuke of Moscow for aviation-related actions taken after its invasion of Ukraine" (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-not-re-elected-un-aviation-agencys-36-member-council-2022-10-01/), i.e., a loss of support by the international community.

5. Your opinions obviously do not match those of those present at the voting - and the UN generally does not engage in voting outside its mandates.

6. Along with the ICC's arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin and his commissioner for children’s rights, the legal future of Russia's top government officials looks quite rosy, doesn't it?

[Moses]

6. Along with the ICC's arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin and his commissioner for children’s rights, the legal future of Russia's top government officials looks quite rosy, doesn't it?

Nope: nobody cares. ICC is toothless.
Al Bashar from Sudan was more than 10 years "under warrant" and traveled a lot, all countries he visited denied to fulfil that warrant.
It is just step of propaganda, which is then more joke, than more countries support arrest warrant while themselves aren't members of ICC.

Do you know how people call ICC? "Racism's court of West for to pressure on Africa". Just take a look on their case: all cases were about African countries till now.

Afghanistan is member of ICC but US not, and all we know why exactly
Palestine is member of ICC but Israel not, and all we know why exactly

ICC (court) is so "world famous" and "important" that Google shows International Cricket council first and only then ICC (court)

[Moses]

We are living in Orwell book 1984:
- EU transfers 2 bln to "Fund for Peace"... for to buy weapon
- US has 2.5 times more prisoners per 100k of population than Iran and call itself "democracy #1"...
- EU and US openly support country where current nationalistic govt got power in coup and supports Nazi parties and movements, state military parts openly use Nazi symbolic...

shame

[Dragonman]

Nope: nobody cares. ICC is toothless.
Al Bashar from Sudan was more than 10 years "under warrant" and traveled a lot, all countries he visited denied to fulfil that warrant.
It is just step of propaganda, which is then more joke, than more countries support arrest warrant while themselves aren't members of ICC.

Do you know how people call ICC? "Racism's court of West for to pressure on Africa". Just take a look on their case: all cases were about African countries till now.

Afghanistan is member of ICC but US not, and all we know why exactly
Palestine is member of ICC but Israel not, and all we know why exactly

ICC (court) is so "world famous" and "important" that Google shows International Cricket council first and only then ICC (court)

You need to learn how Google ranks search responses before claiming that they are based on popularity.

But just consider - the US may not be a member of the ICC, but I doubt he will travel to New York to address the UN in the future or attend a meeting of the G20 either, as the ICC may invite any non-State Party to provide assistance in the arrest and surrender of a person against whom an arrest warrant has been issued. His international presence will be severely diminished. And he will go down in history as a wanted war criminal, whether or not he is arrested - which is not the way he wanted history to remember him, I imagine.

[Dragonman]

We are living in Orwell book 1984:
- EU transfers 2 bln to "Fund for Peace"... for to buy weapon
- US has 2.5 times more prisoners per 100k of population than Iran and call itself "democracy #1"...
- EU and US openly support country where current nationalistic govt got power in coup and supports Nazi parties and movements, state military parts openly use Nazi symbolic...

shame

1. I don't know to which "Fund for Peace" you refer (there is no source cited) because the only one I know of by (https://fundforpeace.org/that name is an American non-profit, non-governmental research and educational institution).
2A. The difference between the USA and Iran is that Iran executes its prisoners for even minor crimes, usually after a very short "trial" and without legal representation or appeal (e.g., https://www.amnesty.org.uk/iran-juvenile-offenders-death-row-execution).
2B. Politicians in the US are not certain whether it is a democracy or a republic, as the word "democracy" is not mentioned in its Constitution. Their system is founded on republicanism as its Founding Founders understood it. That is why power is spread across the three branches of government, and why there is an Electoral College.
3. You're repeating yourself, a sign you're running out of arguments.

One of the reasons for Putin launching the "special military operation" is the claim that Ukraine (and probably Belarus, Moldova, etc.) were historically part of the Russian Empire. The People's Republic of China is about to take a page from the Putin playbook. On 14 February, 2023,, the PRC Ministry of Natural Resources (CMNR) issued a decree on the use of names on international maps. For some Russian cities, the decree rules they must now carry Chinese names, replacing their Russian ones. According to the 10-page document, maps covering Russia's east Siberia must carry the original Chinese names of eight large cities.The best known, Vladivostok, the administrative capital of the region, is now to be officially called "Haishenwai". Having secured the return of Hong Kong, PRC netizens are now agitating for the return of Eastern Siberia, annexed from the Qing Empire in the 19th century.

If Putin really believes that lands that formerly belonged to one country but have been annexed (or become independent) should be returned to their original owner, presumably he will agree to return this territory, If the Ukraine war goes badly for Russia (as it will), China may not hesitate to dust off old territorial claims (as it continues to do with Taiwan) (e.g., Territorial dispute between China and Russia risks clouding friendly future, https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20230321-territorial-dispute-between-china-and-russia-risks-clouding-friendly-future). i imagine the Iranians might also then agitate for lands seized in the 19th century too, perhaps along with others from whom the emperors stole territory.

[Moses]

The European Peace Facility
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/european-peace-facility-0_en

====territorial dispute between China and Russia====

such things doesn't exists: Russia and China finished demarcation of border within whole its length in 2005... for to close all cases Russia and China made exchange by some small territories and signed agreement what both sides count all cases closed.

[Dragonman]

====territorial dispute between China and Russia====

such things doesn't exists: Russia and China finished demarcation of border within whole its length in 2005... for to close all cases Russia and China made exchange by some small territories and signed agreement what both sides count all cases closed.

As the people in Hong Kong how much the PRC is to be trusted to observe any treaties it had signed with foreign countries.

[Dragonman]

We are living in Orwell book 1984:
- EU transfers 2 bln to "Fund for Peace"... for to buy weapon

As a former KGB officer and Communist Party apparatchik, Putin must be aware of the statement by former CPC and PRC leader Mao Zedong: "Every Communist must grasp the truth, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

That the guns might now belong to Ukraine, rather than the Russian Federation, and be funded by western democracies, is just one of history's ironies.

[Moses]

Hong Kong never been sovereign state. It was property of China, then UK, then - now - China again. Pseudo state.

[Moses]

That the guns might now belong to Ukraine, rather than the Russian Federation, and be funded by western democracies, is just one of history's ironies.

It isn't irony, it is Orwell's 1984. "Democracy" funds weapon via "Peace fund" and calls for war while names it "fight for Peace". "War is peace". Oceania vs Ostasia.

[Dragonman]

Hong Kong never been sovereign state. It was property of China, then UK, then - now - China again. Pseudo state.

As my comment was not about whether or not Hong Kong was a sovereign state, your answer misses the point. My comment was a reference to the treaty known as the Sino-British Joint Declaration between the of the United Kingdom and China, signed in 1984 and setting the conditions in which Hong Kong was transferred to Chinese control and for the governance of the territory for 50 years after 1 July 1997 handover, and to the way in which the PRC and the CPC has behaved since 2014.

[Dragonman]

It isn't irony, it is Orwell's 1984. "Democracy" funds weapon via "Peace fund" and calls for war while names it "fight for Peace". "War is peace". Oceania vs Ostasia..

Exactly. Just as "special military operation" is a euphemism for "illegal invasion" and "war," protests in Russia are considered “unrest,” anyone disagreeing with the authorities” is an “extremist,” the annexation of Crimea turns into “reunification,” and the occupation of Ukrainian lands during a full-scale invasion into “liberation.”

[Moses]

As my comment was not about whether or not Hong Kong was a sovereign state, your answer misses the point. My comment was a reference to the treaty known as the Sino-British Joint Declaration between the of the United Kingdom and China, signed in 1984 and setting the conditions in which Hong Kong was transferred to Chinese control and for the governance of the territory for 50 years after 1 July 1997 handover, and to the way in which the PRC and the CPC has behaved since 2014.

In my opinion China may do with Hong Kong whatever they wants, despite any agreements, unless they will start to bomb it like Ukraine did with Eastern territories. And no one state has rights to intervene - it is internal affairs of China. Slowdown in changes in integration of Hong Kong is just a good will of China - it has full sovereignty on Hong Kong as own territory.

[Dragonman]

In my opinion China may do with Hong Kong whatever they wants, despite any agreements, unless they will start to bomb it like Ukraine did with Eastern territories. And no one state has rights to intervene - it is internal affairs of China. Slowdown in changes in integration of Hong Kong is just a good will of China - it has full sovereignty on Hong Kong as own territory.

What your opinion illustrates is the reason why we in Taiwan don't trust either the CPC or the PRC, i.e., the fact that they signed an international treaty and then ignored its terms, particularly the part which stated that "the central government's policies for the territory were to remain unchanged for a period of 50 years after 1997." They lied.

In 2017, a PRC Foreign Ministry spokesman described the Sino-British Joint Declaration of 1984, which set out the policies for governance of Hong Kong for 50 years from 1997, as “a historical document [that] no longer has any realistic meaning”, adding: “It also does not have any binding power on how the Chinese central government administers Hong Kong.” Four days later, however, another PRC Foreign Ministry spokesman declared a much-older 1890 Sino-British treaty, concerning the Doklam region in Bhutan, was still as binding as ever - because they claim it is an historical part of imperial China.

The PRC practices "cherry picking" which international treaties they honor. How long do you think it will be before a PRC Foreign Ministry spokesperson comments that the Sino-Russian border demarcation treaty is also “a historical document [that] no longer has any realistic meaning”?

[Moses]

How long do you think it will be before a PRC Foreign Ministry spokesperson comments that the Sino-Russian border demarcation treaty is also “a historical document [that] no longer has any realistic meaning”?

Russia has nuclear weapon, dear. So that situation is unthinkable.

[Dragonman]

Russia has nuclear weapon, dear. So that situation is unthinkable.

1. Your thinking is faulty, as Russia threatens other nuclear powers with nuclear war (e.g., France, the US and the UK) if/when it loses the war with Ukraine. What Russia threatens, the PRC can.

2. The PRC has 1.412 billion people and the Russian Federation has 143 million. Society's needs come before those of the individual in the PRC (e.g., the PRC executes more people than the rest of the world combined each year) and it would not put the lives of citizens before the needs of the CPC. History demonstrates this, e.g., Mao Zedong's so-called "Great Leap Forward" from 1959/1960–1962, coupled with the people's commune and Four Pests campaigns, resulted in an estimated 15–55 million people dying of starvation during the "Great Chinese Famine" (Chinese: 三年大饥荒; literally 'three years of great famine'), more than any other single famine in recorded human history, or almost 10 times the death toll in Stalin's Holodomor. In the PRC, as in the USSR, people are dispensable.

[Moses]

1. Your thinking is faulty, as Russia threatens other nuclear powers with nuclear war (e.g., France, the US and the UK) if/when it loses the war with Ukraine. What Russia threatens, the PRC can.

2. The PRC has 1.412 billion people and the Russian Federation has 143 million. Society's needs come before those of the individual in the PRC (e.g., the PRC executes more people than the rest of the world combined each year) and it would not put the lives of citizens before the needs of the CPC. History demonstrates this, e.g., Mao Zedong's so-called "Great Leap Forward" from 1959/1960–1962, coupled with the people's commune and Four Pests campaigns, resulted in an estimated 15–55 million people dying of starvation during the "Great Chinese Famine" (Chinese: 三年大饥荒; literally 'three years of great famine'), more than any other single famine in recorded human history, or almost 10 times the death toll in Stalin's Holodomor. In the PRC, as in the USSR, people are dispensable.

The most significant is: China in 20 years became world most successful country: from poor agriculture country to world #1 by manufacturing power.

12957

[Dragonman]

The most significant is: China in 20 years became world most successful country: from poor agriculture country to world #1 by manufacturing power.

12957

As usual, when you cannot rebut a point made, you change the topic. This answer is not related in any way to your earlier comment about the Sino-Russian nuclear arms balance as a deterrent to possible/probably border tensions.

As the graph in the illustration begins in 1990, the figure should be 30 years, not 20 years.

From another perspective, taking the graph starting point further back, China's rise to becoming world #1 by manufacturing power could be dated from Mao's 1953 'Five Year Plan,' which would signify the PRC's first large scale campaign to industrialize, which means it took longer than 20/30 years. Or, given that China has 3,500 years of written history (the longest continuous history of any country in the world), it could be argued that Chinese industrialization is simply a copy of that which began with the British Industrial Revolution around 1760. It simply took them a long time to catch up, after the hard work had been done by other countries.

[Moses]

As usual, when you cannot rebut a point made, you change the topic. This answer is not related in any way to your earlier comment about the Sino-Russian nuclear arms balance as a deterrent to possible/probably border tensions.


There is nothing to discuss. Russia is nuclear country. That means nobody will risk. For sure even in China exists nationalistic fractions in CPC, as in any country, but nuclear power is nuclear power.

[Dragonman]

There is nothing to discuss. Russia is nuclear country. That means nobody will risk. For sure even in China exists nationalistic fractions in CPC, as in any country, but nuclear power is nuclear power.

As you wrote: "That means nobody will risk" - including Putin.

That is why Putin's threats to use nuclear weapons against countries supplying Ukraine with weapons need to be seen in this context. The corollary argument is: The UK, France and the USA are nuclear countries. The UK, France and the USA are members of NATO. The language used in the NATO treaty is very specific, saying “an armed attack” on any member will be considered an attack on all members, and that members would then would “assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary." Therefore, a Russian nuclear attack on the UK or any NATO country is very likely to bring a response in kind from other NATO countries. The US has six military bases in the UK, several within easy reach of London. A nuclear attack on, e.g., the UK would also be considered a nuclear attack on the USA bases, and will bring a response in kind. Moreover, an undisclosed number of the UK's nuclear weapons are at sea at all times in the UK's Trident submarines. Though Russia has marginally more (34 - if they are all capable of being used) nuclear weapons than the UK, France and the USA combined, it would take only one allied nuclear weapon to obliterate Moscow (or any of Putin's palaces, including his "forest palace" on the Black Sea coast near Gelendzhik, Krasnodar Krai, which can be located by satellites or possibly Google maps).

If the threat of a Sino-Russian conflict is unthinkable because both are nuclear powers, then a NATO-Russian conflict involving the use of nuclear weapons is an empty Russian threat.

[Moses]

then a NATO-Russian conflict involving the use of nuclear weapons is an empty Russian threat.

Nope. It works. Perfectly works. Every NATO bureaucrat while giving interviews specially highlight what NATO isn't part of conflict. Just for precautions. All Western countries decline demands of Ukraine for long-ranged weapon. Why? Because of Russian warning what it will cross red line.

[Dragonman]

Nope. It works. Perfectly works. Every NATO bureaucrat while giving interviews specially highlight what NATO isn't part of conflict. Just for precautions. All Western countries decline demands of Ukraine for long-ranged weapon. Why? Because of Russian warning what it will cross red line.

Your comment would have more weight if NATO countries had not already crossed the so-called "red line" several times already in supplying armaments, e.g., Germany crossed "the red line" when it started supplying lethal weapons to Ukraine, according to the Russian Ambassador to Germany, Sergey Nechayev, in September 2022. The USA crossed "the red line" when it supplied M1 Abrams battle tanks to Ukraine. The sending of Patriot missile interceptors crossed "the red line," and now the US is supplying a $2.2 billion package of military aid including long-range bombs that can strike targets more than 90 miles away, Lithuania is saying the red line "must be crossed" to supply Ukraine with jets. And so on.

Russia has threatened that If the UK continues to send weapons to Ukraine, then it – and Ireland – face destruction by a nuclear tsunami. So far, Ireland has not sent weapons to Ukraine, stating that it does not have the military capacity to send arms to Ukraine, so why is it threatened - even if the idea were not a fantasy, as a claimed 500 meter high tsunami wave would require the release of the equivalent of 0.8 gigatons of TNT. Reports state that Russia took delivery of its first Poseidon missile in January 2023 (https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a42537023/russia-poseidon-torpedo/). Each Poseidon is thought to have a 2-megaton thermonuclear warhead, or the equivalent of 2,000 kilotons of TNT.

The EU has established its own "red line" for the PRC, warning it not to send weapons to Russia. EU foreign policy chief says bloc is watching for any sign of lethal support to Moscow, for which it will impose sanction. Beijing rejects suggestion it was considering supplying arms, but Xi left Moscow after his meeting with Putin without a public promise of supplying any.

Threats that don't seem to be a deterrent are not threats.

[Moses]

====for any sign of lethal support to Moscow, for which it will impose sanction.====

that is most funny part: EU sanctioned China :)))))) What they will do without Chinese goods? Nothing to wear, no computers, no electronic, nothing... Just check what share of parts in Mercedes or BMW is manufactured in China...

"EU will impose"... EU already imposed to Russia and now has inflation from 10 to 20 percent, in some countries twice higher than in Russia :))... After imposing to China it will be above 30% because of cost of local labor.

Russian export is just about 1.5% of World trade, but EU+US still can't exclude Russia from global trade, what they will do with China with its 6.5%??? Only 33 countries joined sanctions against Russia, rest don't want to shoot own legs. To join sanctions against China will mean to shoot own head.

Just imagine: Amazon is closed because nothing to sell, eBay is closed, Tesla is closed (because main factory is in China), all electronic gadgets are died because almost all Lithium accs are manufactured in China, new computers costs 3 times more,... oh, I forgot to tell about Apple phones (hello Foxconn in China), and other mobile phones...

what did you just said? sanctions against China? it is best way to start world revolution...

[Dragonman]

====for any sign of lethal support to Moscow, for which it will impose sanction.====

that is most funny part: EU sanctioned China :)))))) What they will do without Chinese goods? Nothing to wear, no computers, no electronic, nothing... Just check what share of parts in Mercedes or BMW is manufactured in China...

"EU will impose"... EU already imposed to Russia and now has inflation from 10 to 20 percent, in some countries twice higher than in Russia :))... After imposing to China it will be above 30% because of cost of local labor.

Russian export is just about 1.5% of World trade, but EU+US still can't exclude Russia from global trade, what they will do with China with its 6.5%??? Only 33 countries joined sanctions against Russia, rest don't want to shoot own legs. To join sanctions against China will mean to shoot own head.

Just imagine: Amazon is closed because nothing to sell, eBay is closed, Tesla is closed (because main factory is in China), all electronic gadgets are died because almost all Lithium accs are manufactured in China, new computers costs 3 times more,... oh, I forgot to tell about Apple phones (hello Foxconn in China), and other mobile phones...

what did you just said? sanctions against China? it is best way to start world revolution...

Why assume that the sanctions would be imposed on exports rather than people or foreign reserves? A perceptive article entitled "China’s national wealth remains vulnerable to Western financial sanctions, no matter what it does," by Chen Zhao, published in The South China Morning Post (26 Mar, 2022), discusses one sort of sanction that could be imposed - similar to those imposed on Russian reserves held outside Russia..The PRC's foreign exchange reserves rose to USD 3.184 trillion at the end of January 2023, the majority of which is parked in the dollar-denominated US debt securities, and if the EU imposes sanctions on China, the USA is highly likely to follow.

Despite officially receiving only state salaries, senior CPC officials are rich (the so-called "red nobility") - Xi reputedly has $US2 billion invested in the US stock market, and his family is also wealthy (rather like the Russian situation). Many Chinese oligarchs have moved their wealth to Singapore (to protect it from Xi's crackdown on oligarchs), but they could still be sanctioned. A TIME article of 2014 showed where many of the PRC wealthy then hid their money (Found: Offshore Wealth Stashed by Families of China's Leaders, https://time.com/1374/offshore-wealth-of-chinas-leaders/). The PRC blocked websites and censored mention of the story online - I wonder why?

EU countries could withdraw university scholarships and place given to PRC students, e.g., the 107,000 in the UK, the 30,00 in Germany, 24,000 in France, and the 15,000 in Italy. Even smaller European countries such as Sweden, Ireland, Hungary, and Switzerland now each host around 2,000 Chinese students. Without a university degree, the students chances of getting a good job on their return to the PRC would be minimal.

With regard to Foxconn in the PRC, 29 of its 35 suppliers are in the PRC. Foxconn, however, has other Apple suppliers in Taiwan, India, Brazil, Vietnam, and the US. Moreover, the firm started moving into other areas in 2019 (like artificial intelligence, robotics, and autonomous driving) as it sees it traditional major business of smartphone assembly having matured.

Like many non-PRC firms, the vast majority of Foxconn's employees come from the poorer regions of western China. Sanctions imposed on it would mean that employees would be laid off and, thus, lose permission to live Shenzen, Zhengzhou, etc. - cities on the eastern seaboard - and would have to return home to areas where there is no work but where their families (who rely in their income) live. There are already problems in these provinces with poverty, which the closing of firms like Foxconn, etc., would exacerbate - and the PRC does want that.

Sanctions on the PRC and the CPC officials might not ignite a world revolution, but they might ignite another Chinese revolution.

[Moses]

===Why assume that the sanctions would be imposed on exports rather than people? ===
because if not EU, then China will impose export sanctions as an answer... they will find vital articles and just switch off tap or announce restrictive export/import taxes... like they did with Australian wine... 218% taxes... Morrison spoke too much and whole AU wine industry now in crisis https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/business/china-wine-australia.html

[Dragonman]

===Why assume that the sanctions would be imposed on exports rather than people? ===
because if not EU, then China will impose export sanctions as an answer... they will find vital articles and just switch off tap or announce restrictive export/import taxes... like they did with Australian wine... 218% taxes... Morrison spoke too much and whole AU wine industry now in crisis https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/business/china-wine-australia.html

As with many of your postings, this is дезинформация (dezinformatsiya) intended to mislead members of this board.The correct information of PRC taxes on Australian wine imports are that the tariffs range from 116% to 218%. While it is correct to claim that Australia’s wine exports to China have plunged to just $12.4 million annually compared with $1.3 billion before Beijing imposed the tariffs in late 2020, the wine industry has diversified into other markets., e.g., Thailand (up 118%), Malaysia, up 78%), Canada, up 14%), Vietnam (all of which have large ethnic Chinese populations), etc. The wine industry's exports in 2022 were worth $1.94 billion, according to the industry body Wine Australia. As with many industries, exports were slightly less than in previous years before of Covid-19 restrictions on bars, etc. In 2021-2022, Australia exported 625 million litres of wine, valued at $2.1 billion (FOB), and the top destination market was the USA, accounting for 21% of the exports by value. Domestically, Australian wine is estimated to account for 441 million litres, making up 82% of the total sales on the domestic market in 2021-22. To claim the industry is "in crisis" is incorrect.

With regard to your earlier posting, Amazon, Tesla, eBay, Apple (and Foxconn) are not EU-based firms, so it would be illogical (but not inconceivable) for the CPC/PRC to retaliate against them for EU-imposed sanctions.

To put into perspective your comment that the PRC ".. will find vital articles and just switch off tap or announce restrictive export/import taxes," the question is "vital to whom"? For example, the PRC is a heavy importer of foodstuffs from the EU, being the bloc's third largest market.

In 2022, China was the third largest partner for EU exports of goods (9.0 %) and the largest partner for EU imports of goods (20.8 %). Overall, however, corporate dependence remains limited as markets in Europe and the US are as or even more important than the Chinese market for their business, e.g., on average, EU companies generated about 11% of their revenue in the PRC.

Last, according to Trading Economics (https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=europe), the inflation rate for the EU as a whole in February 2023 was 9.9%. Four countries - Ukraine, Latvia, Moldova and Hungary - had inflation rates over 20%. The highest inflation rate, however, at 55.18% was Turkiye's, which is not an EU member. Russia, of course, has been one of Turkiye's most important trade partners, e.g., "Russia’s Ukraine War Effort Fueled by Turkish Exports" (https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias-ukraine-war-effort-fueled-by-turkish-exports-11675447477). Enough said.

[Moses]

====To claim the industry is "in crisis" is incorrect.====
Tell it to NY Times editors, darling. Because it is their word what has been used for current condition of AU wine industry.

Crisis. That what is going in AU wine industry.

[Moses]

As per inflation...

Dear, from the start I told - it will be shoot in own leg.

Under 10 packs of the sanctions Russia has 11% of inflation (correct number is 10.9%).

Lets see what countries have without sanctions (or it is better to say under own sanctions???) whole EU has inflation just 10% lower than Russia:
Spain 6
Greece 6.1
France 6.3
Norway 6.3
Belgium 6.62
Cyprus 6.7
Malta 7
Albania 7.1
Denmark 7.6
Netherlands 8
Portugal 8.2
Euro Area 8.5
Ireland 8.5
Germany 8.7
Finland 8.8
Italy 9.1
Slovenia 9.3
European Union 9.9
Faroe Islands 10.1
Iceland 10.2
United Kingdom 10.4
Kosovo 10.5
Austria 10.9
Russia 11
Belarus 11.7
Croatia 12
Sweden 12
Bosnia and Herzegovina 14.1
Montenegro 15.1
Slovakia 15.4
Romania 15.52
Bulgaria 16 16.7
Serbia 16.1
Czech Republic 16.7
Macedonia 16.7
Estonia 17.6
Poland 18.4
Lithuania 18.7
Latvia 20.3
Hungary 25.4

And to talk about Turkey economic now - after one of strongest earthquake - is quite stupid, you know...

[Dragonman]

====To claim the industry is "in crisis" is incorrect.====
Tell it to NY Times editors, darling. Because it is their word what has been used for current condition of AU wine industry.

Crisis. That what is going in AU wine industry.

I think the article to which you are referring is entitled "China Wine Tariff Pushes Australia’s Grape Growers Into Crisis" (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/business/china-wine-australia.html, Claire Fu and Daisuke Wakabayashi, March 16, 2023, Updated March 19, 2023). Claire Fu and Daisuke Wakabayashi both are based in Seoul, not in Australia .

All but one (Nikki Palun) of the interviews are with grape growers, not with the wine making firms such as Treasury Wine Estates, Yalumba, etc. Moreover, all but one (again, Nikki Palun) the interviews were conducted in South Australia, one of the four grape-growing regions. There are four main wine regions in Australia: Western Australia, New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australia (which includes the Riverland).

The main person interviewed is Mauro Travaglione, whose winemaking Italian parents bought a small fruit farm in South Australia in the 1960s. He is not a wine-maker. Nikki Palun runs Octtava Wine, which focuses on artisanal, small batch urban wine-making, and is not a major wine industry player.

The major reference to a wine-making firm is to Accolade Wines, a conglomerate which told its cooperative of Riverland farmers that producing more red wine this year would only depress red grapes again next year. The other reference to a wine-maker is to Winemasters SA, which markets itself as "a significant resource for growers and traders to process fruit and prepare their wines for sale from all the major S.A. wine regions."

So, the wine industry itself is not in crisis - it is the grape-growers.

[Dragonman]

As per inflation...

Dear, from the start I told - it will be shoot in own leg.

Under 10 packs of the sanctions Russia has 11% of inflation (correct number is 10.9%).

And to talk about Turkey economic now - after one of strongest earthquake - is quite stupid, you know...

The post to which I replied stated ""EU will impose"... EU already imposed to Russia and now has inflation from 10 to 20 percent, in some countries twice higher than in Russia."

I responded, "Last, according to Trading Economics (https://tradingeconomics.com/country...ntinent=europe), the inflation rate for the EU as a whole in February 2023 was 9.9%. Four countries - Ukraine, Latvia, Moldova and Hungary - had inflation rates over 20%. The highest inflation rate, however, at 55.18% was Turkiye's, which is not an EU member. Russia, of course, has been one of Turkiye's most important trade partners, e.g., "Russia’s Ukraine War Effort Fueled by Turkish Exports" (https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias...ts-11675447477). Enough said. "

Nothing you have posted (which far exceeds the five lines you earlier claimed was the limit) contradicts which I wrote, it simply lists the inflation rate by country - not all of which are EU member states, e.g., many of the countries in red in your posting. If you exclude those, that the average EU member state inflation rate is 9.9% for February. The EU annual inflation was 10.0% in January 2023, down from 10.4% in December, 2022 (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/16056046/2-23022023-AP-EN.pdf/4a097379-8598-01ff-12d8-75d72570ca85).

Incidentally, other sources state that the annual inflation rate in Russia fell to 11% in February of 2023 from 11.8% in the previous month, the lowest since the start of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and under market expectations of 11.2 percent (https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/inflation-cpi). The source for this statistic is cited in the article as Federal State Statistics Service.

If you think that the rate for Turkiye for February should take into account its earthquake, then perhaps you should also know that Turkey's annual average inflation edged up to 72.4% in January 2023, having been 72.3% in December 2022 (https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/turkey/news/inflation/inflation-drops-to-lowest-level-since-february-2022-in-january/). The February figure was actually lower than in the two preceding months.

[arsenal]

The Russian Wagner Group, fed up with fighting them pesky Ukrainians have now turned round and started fighting Russians.

The non Wagner Group Russians, not liking The Wagner Group any more than they did the Ukrainians have sent the Chechens to deal with them.

This is hilarious and many comedies will no doubt follow.

I think Nick Cage would be good as Putin with Ben Kingsley as the slightly deranged Prighozin and Ray Winston as Zelensky..

[Moses]

===now turned round and started fighting Russians====

Wagner made no one shot. So for these who trust into "started fighting with Russians" I have bad news. By the way - they already on the way to their places on the contact line with Ukrainians.

All these movements are just under carpet fight of two elites. It is easily visible by moment of start: Friday evening right after closure of all stock exchanges. Everything will be resolved within weekend.

And by the way: for everyone on the West is better to have Putin in Kremlin, because Prigozhin represent right wings of elites, he is clearly monarchist, his dispute with Shoygu (minister of Defense) is about how slowly army advances, he wants American tactic - first of all to wipe cities and then only to take territories, he is calling for using of tactical nuclear weapon.

[Dodger]

.

I think Nick Cage would be good as Putin with Ben Kingsley as the slightly deranged Prighozin and Ray Winston as Zelensky..

Personally I think Anthony Hopkins would be perfect in the role of Prighozin... (remember Hannibal Lector in Silence of the Lambs)?

And the part of Putin would simply have to go to Luo Yuanpin, a 56-year-old farmer from Chinese Anhui province.

[arsenal]

I'm casting boyishly handsome Dev Patel as boyishly handsome Rishi Sunak, slightly goofy John Lithgow as rather odd puppet/psycho Alexander Lukashenko and we're trawling the Floridacare homes to find someone to play the confused Joe Biden.

[arsenal]

The Wagner Group are now heading off to Belarus where presumably they won't be fighting Ukranians or Russians or Belarussians. So what exactly will they all do there? With the war not going well already and now a good sized chunk.of the forces deserting. expect a change of tactics from Putin as satire is replaced by full on slapstick.

[Moses]

====With the war not going well already and now a good sized chunk.of the forces deserting====

War is not going fast, but going well: Russia builded fortifications at winter and now just waiting when sponsors of war will be tired from money burning, at the same time it trains reserve army from mobilized at past autumn conscripts. 25K of 450K isn't big chunk. Moreover: soldiers from Wagner are going to regular army's parts to join.

So now is war on positions. Ukraine has less recourses, first of all - people. Result is predictable.

Huge intensive hunt for Western military technic is going on the line of contact, because Russia pays bonus US$ 125000 for each Leopard, $50000 for Bradley. In some cases Ukrainians just sell its to Russia :)) because it is better to have $125K and be alive than to be just died.

Few photos from past week: Leopards, Bradleys and so on... more photos and videos from drones here https://web.telegram.org/k/#@lost_armour

13167

13168

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[arsenal]

Nothing in war is predictable except ignominious withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Hannibal
Bannockburn
Armada
Trafalgar
Gallipoli
Stalingrad
Singapore
Teutoburg Forest
Khartoum

[Moses]

Nothing in war is predictable except ignominious withdrawal from Afghanistan.


Do you mean American withdrawal?

Because Russia never been in war with Afghanistan, USSR did it in interests of republics of Central Asia.

[arsenal]

UK. Several times. Fail
Soviet Union. Fail.
America. Fail.

A glance at the history books will show you that it's virtually impossible for one country to invade another of any decent size if that country and its citizens/armed forces decide to really fight.

[Moses]

A glance at the history books will show you that it's virtually impossible for one country to invade another of any decent size if that country and its citizens/armed forces decide to really fight.

Well, looks like no one American president knew it before to invade.

[arsenal]

True. But that won't help Russia. Remember that Ukraine doesn't have to win, they just have to not lose and they're playing at home.

[Moses]

True. But that won't help Russia. Remember that Ukraine doesn't have to win, they just have to not lose and they're playing at home.

No. You miss one very important difference. Russia may control territory easily, because we spoke the same language, because there are a lot of loyal to Russia Ukrainians, especially from older generations. It clearly visible on taken territories - great cooperation and no resistance.

Current regime dismissed over 20 political parties, had to close more than 50 TV and radio stations for to keep itself in power. They not only forbid Russian language, but even clear libraries from Russian books, and I mean books written in Russian language even if writer is giant of Ukrainian culture like Gogol. It is so funny: Gogol wrote his books in Russian. Bulgakov was citizen of Kiyev - capital of Ukraine, also wrote all his books in Russian, but now their books are in the fire.

[arsenal]

Don't confuse my dislike of Russia as admiration for Ukraine. I agree with Putin that they're the same.

I still think the whole thing is absurd.

[Moses]

I still think the whole thing is absurd.

Sure.
Can you just imagine: in Kiyev school where Jewish kids study Hebrew language, has address 22B, Shukhevych avenue.

you can read who was Shukhevych here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych - commander officer of Nachtigall Battalion of Abwehr
he is responsible for deaths of tens thousands of Polish and Jewish people (Holocaust), but is national hero for current Ukrainian regime.

[arsenal]

Yes well, that's certainly something that can be dealt with when the Russian tanks roll into Kiev and liberate everyone. Heroes welcome expected.

[Dodger]

Interesting, that China now finds itself sitting on the same fence post as the West when it comes to seeing the reality of Russia's future.

Hu Xijin, the former editor in chief of the Chinese-government-affiliated Global Times, had been commentating on Prigozhin’s insurrection and Russia’s political situation. In the now-deleted tweet, Hu wrote: “[Prigozhin’s] armed rebellion has made the Russian political situation cross the tipping point. Regardless of his outcome, Russia cannot return to the country it was before the rebellion anymore.” Hu’s comments were a stark contrast to the Chinese government’s previous neutral stance on Russian politics.

Geopolitical analysts have to be pulling their hair out trying to rearrange their drawing boards, as China will undoubtedly continue to backtrack on its supportive statements towards Russia - and the West fine-tunes its strategies for protecting the world against the nuclear threat posed by the deranged Russian leader...not to mention Prigozhin, who has now elevated himself on the chessboard from a glorified pawn - to a second king.

Having an ex convict like Prigozhin who earns a living killing people for money living in exile in neighboring Belarus where Putin is reportedly sending tactical nuclear weapons doesn't have a very good ring to it. My guess is that Prigozhin will end up back in Africa managing his billion dollar illegal enterprises until Putin's regime has completed the process of imploding. That is if he manages to stay alive.

To say that Putin's military ground forces will now be even less capable than they were before would be the understatement of the century.

If you think there was a problem involving military leadership, battlefield coordination, troop motivation, etc, before, just wait until Putin terminates the Wagner commanders and merges the remaining Wagner fighters (most being convicted criminals and psycho's) into the ranks of the regular Russian army. As we all know, the majority of Russian soldiers are inexperienced recruits who didn't want any part of this war to begin with.

Putin is finished!

[Moses]

====My guess is that Prigozhin will end up back in Africa managing his billion dollar illegal enterprises until Putin's regime has completed the process of imploding. That is if he manages to stay alive.====

Wrong. Wagner will exist and continue its operations around the globe. Headquarters of Wagner here are opened and continue to recruit freelancers to Mali, Sudan, Syria, Ukraine.

====As we all know, the majority of Russian soldiers are inexperienced recruits who didn't want any part of this war to begin with.====

Again wrong - majority of Russian army are contactors, voluntary signed contract, they knew in advance where they skills will be used.

====not to mention Prigozhin, who has now elevated himself on the chessboard from a glorified pawn - to a second king.====

And this is not only wrong, but is real bullshit. People who says that have zero knowledges about Russian elites. Prigozhin doesn't "rebel" against Putin. He continue to be his supporter even now. It was conflict of elites, one is represented by Prigozhin, another one by current defense minister Shoygu.

Prigozhin is right radical. He and represented by him part of Russian elite insist on more radical methods of war: mass bombing, wiping towns before to enter there. He blames Shoygu for Russian losses "because instead of saving life of Russian solders he (Shoygu) is talking about saving life of Ukrainian civilians". Prigozhin is proponent of American tactic - shoot first talk then. And this conflict is attempt to elevate Prigozhin's point of view to Putin's level.

Meanwhile conflict was resolved less than in 24 hours and this shows that Kremlin controls situation tightly.

[arsenal]

Thank you General Melchett.

[latintopxxx]

,,,hopoefully once Putin is dispatched someone "reasonable" can steer Russia and its people onto a path of prosperity, they have so much natural wealth that every Russian should be living a a warm comfortable 3 bedroomed apartment and driving around in a nice late model lexus.

[Dodger]

,,,hopoefully once Putin is dispatched someone "reasonable" can steer Russia and its people onto a path of prosperity, they have so much natural wealth that every Russian should be living a a warm comfortable 3 bedroomed apartment and driving around in a nice late model lexus.

Not to mention the fact that all those HOT Russian boys can stop sitting around in mud trenches getting shot at - and get back to fu*king and sucking the way life is intended.

[latintopxxx]

yes, what a waste

[Dragonman]

It will be interesting to see whether Moses is correct in his assertion that "Wagner will exist and continue its operations around the globe. Headquarters of Wagner here are opened and continue to recruit freelancers to Mali, Sudan, Syria, Ukraine." There are reports from several sources, including Time and the BBC, that "Russia’s defense ministry has said that the Wagner Group will surrender its supply of weapons and hardware, and its fighters have been invited by Putin to join the Russian army instead. Failing that, mercenaries can flee to neighboring Belarus, which has been involved in mediating an agreement between the two parties since Wagner’s rebellion on Saturday" (https://time.com/6290536/russia-wagner-group-disbanded-ukraine/)." This would suggest, if true, that either the Wagner Group will be dissolved or that the Russian Federation is going into the mercenary army business in Africa, Syria, etc.

Moses asserted that "Again wrong - majority of Russian army are contactors, voluntary signed contract, they knew in advance where they skills will be used." Western reports state that about 410,000 are contract soldiers (kontraktniki), while by the end of 2023, the Russian command expects to have 521,000 contract soldiers, ‘taking into account the replacement of draftees in the groups of troops and the manning of new formations’ (https://ridl.io/the-russian-army-in-2023/). The total number of troops is irrelevant, however, if they are ill-equipped and ill-trained. The latter might explain why both the Chechen forces of Ramzan Kadyrov and the Wagner Group have played such a significant part in the war (which Putin has now admitted it is) with Ukraine. It is also interesting that "'The state paid to the Wagner Group 86.262 billion rubles [approximately $1 billion] for salaries for fighters and incentive rewards between May 2022 and May 2023 alone," Putin said Tuesday, according to the Agence France-Presse" (https://www.newsweek.com/putin-paid-billion-dollars-wagner-group-yevgeny-prigozhin-mutiny-1809326), although he had previously denied the Group's existence. Reports suggest that the Group may now number between 20,000 and 50,000 members. They are paid more than ordinary members of the Russian army, who complain that they are not being paid on time (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/22/russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-increasingly-getting-paid-late-report-finds-a80576).

While the "conflict was resolved less than in 24 hours" because "Kremlin controls situation tightly," part of the reason why the Wagner Group and Prigozhin halted their activities may be explained by the fact that the Kremlin threatened their families. Apparently it is acceptable to threaten the families of others, but unacceptable to have the tables turned.

[Moses]

====There are reports from several sources, including Time and the BBC, that "Russia’s defense ministry has said that the Wagner Group will surrender its supply of weapons and hardware, and its fighters have been invited by Putin to join the Russian army instead. Failing that, mercenaries can flee to neighboring Belarus, which has been involved in mediating an agreement between the two parties since Wagner’s rebellion on Saturday"===

That's what Shoygu wishes, but his political weight here is close to zero. What will be done - it is decision of another people.

====Western reports state that about 410,000 are contract soldiers (kontraktniki), while by the end of 2023, the Russian command expects to have 521,000 contract soldiers, ‘taking into account the replacement of draftees in the groups of troops and the manning of new formations’ (https://ridl.io/the-russian-army-in-2023/).===

Anonymous private project citations? Huh? I may create 10 such projects in 2 days and 10 articles will propagate 10 different points of view. Numbers was correct. to December 2022. Right now number of soldiers on contract is about 515K +/- 5%.

In total in Russian army are about 1,350,000. From this number about 300K are civilians, about 300K are officers in different military research centers, doctors in military hospitals around Russia who service not only soldiers and officers but also army veterans on pensions. So now we have number 750K (1350 - 300 - 300 = 750 ) and from them about 250K are conscripts in training camps who can't be used outside of Russia nor in military operations by law. 750-250=500

Do you see? Number around 500K is totally relevant to my declaration what only contractors are fighting with Ukrainian Nazi regime.

=== Reports suggest that the Group may now number between 20,000 and 50,000 members. They are paid more than ordinary members of the Russian army ===
Correct number is around 40K +/- 10%. They are paid about 1.5 times higher than regulars contractors in army for higher risks: soldier in army on contract receives about USD 2700 monthly, contractors in Wagner have salary about USD 4000 monthly since Wagner is private company and receives a lot of payments from abroad of Russia.

===While the "conflict was resolved less than in 24 hours" because "Kremlin controls situation tightly," part of the reason why the Wagner Group and Prigozhin halted their activities may be explained by the fact that the Kremlin threatened their families. Apparently it is acceptable to threaten the families of others, but unacceptable to have the tables turned.====
This part is pure speculation. Nobody knows how it was done, but it was done less than in 24 hours.

[Dragonman]

=====That's what Shoygu wishes, but his political weight here is close to zero. What will be done - it is decision of another people.=====

It Putin's any better?

=====Anonymous private project citations? Huh? I may create 10 such projects in 2 days and 10 articles will propagate 10 different points of view. Numbers was correct. to December 2022. Right now number of soldiers on contract is about 515K +/- 5%. ===

You never provide links to the sources of your information - or disinformation, as the case may be. Given that the Russian Defense Ministry does not report on the number of soldiers killed or wounded in its war on Ukraine, from where do you get your information?

====Do you see? Number around 500K is totally relevant to my declaration what only contractors are fighting with Ukrainian Nazi regime.==== No one believes this "Ukrainian Nazi regime" shibboleth any longer

==== since Wagner is private company and receives a lot of payments from abroad of Russia.=== So why did TASS run with this headline? "Putin says Wagner group fully financed by Russian government. "I want to note and I want everyone to know that the financing of the entire Wagner group was fully ensured by the state," he said. "We fully financed this group from the Defense Ministry, from the state budget," Putin added. From May 2022 to May 2023, the state alone allocated 86.2 bln rubles ($1 bln) to PMC Wagner in the form of salary to fighters and incentive rewards, the president noted. "Of that amount, remuneration equaled 70.38 bln [rubles], incentive rewards amounted to 15.87 bln [rubles], insurance payments totaled 110.17 bln [rubles]," he said.Meanwhile, Wagner’s owner, the Concord company, received 80 bln rubles ($940 mln) from the state in one year for supplying food and providing food services to the army, the Russian leader noted" (https://tass.com/defense/1639345).

====This part is pure speculation. Nobody knows how it was done, but it was done less than in 24 hours.==== "Russian security services threatened the families of Wagner forces to get them to back down, report says." Given that the EU and US have imposed sanctions on two of Prigozhin's children and his wife, which limit their capacity to travel outside Russia, he had reason to worry (https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-threatened-families-of-wagner-uprising-leaders-telegraph-2023-6).

[Moses]

====No one believes this "Ukrainian Nazi regime" shibboleth any longer===

bullshit...
it is clearly visible and only stupid people don't see it... just open Google-maps and read names on renamed streets in Kiyev... Shushkevych avenue... Shushkevich is hero for these Nazi bastards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

"Russian security services threatened the families of Wagner forces to get them to back down, report says." Given that the EU and US have imposed sanctions on two of Prigozhin's children and his wife, which limit their capacity to travel outside Russia, he had reason to worry (https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...legraph-2023-6).

Once again: Western mass media may write whatever, but nobody of them was there. So it is pure speculations.

===Given that the Russian Defense Ministry does not report on the number of soldiers killed or wounded in its war on Ukraine, from where do you get your information?====

Why you are talking about number of killed. We are talking about number of soldiers in Russian army, and this number is published yearly by Putin's decree. Example http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/Document/View/0001202208250004

===You never provide links to the sources of your information - or disinformation, as the case may be.===
Sure, why should I do it? It is public information, anyone may find it in searchengines.

[Dragonman]

====No one believes this "Ukrainian Nazi regime" shibboleth any longer===

bullshit...
it is clearly visible and only stupid people don't see it... just open Google-maps and read names on renamed streets in Kiyev... Shushkevych avenue... Shushkevich is hero for these Nazi bastards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

You should read the Wikipedia article more carefully, as although it states that he was a collaborator it never states that he belonged to the Nazi party. The Kyiv City Council 2017 decision to rename the former General Vatutin Avenue into Roman Shukhevych Avenue was passed by a 69 to 51 vote, which hardly signals overwhelming support for the idea that Shukhevych is a national hero (https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7766).

"Russian security services threatened the families of Wagner forces to get them to back down, report says." Given that the EU and US have imposed sanctions on two of Prigozhin's children and his wife, which limit their capacity to travel outside Russia, he had reason to worry (https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...legraph-2023-6). Once again: Western mass media may write whatever, but nobody of them was there. So it is pure speculations.

Provide a link to one Russian mass media outlet that has denied this "pure speculation." The Moscow Times (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/26/threats-to-wagner-leaders-families-preceded-mutiny-stand-down-telegraph-a81642) repeated the information, Although the Moscow Times noted that "it was not possible to independently verify the report’s claims," it did not deny the possibility that Russian intelligence agencies had made threats to harm the families of Wagner mercenary group leaders.

===Given that the Russian Defense Ministry does not report on the number of soldiers killed or wounded in its war on Ukraine, from where do you get your information?====

Why you are talking about number of killed. We are talking about number of soldiers in Russian army, and this number is published yearly by Putin's decree. Example http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/Document/View/0001202208250004

Well, given previous Russian figures on the number of men called up to fight in this war which, as a special military operation which was supposed to last only three days, and then when one subtracts the numbers of those killed or injured, the number of living men capable of fighting is severely diminished. For example, although Russian sources do not give the numbers of Russian soldiers killed, Ukrainian sources report that some 200,590 Russian troops were "liquidated" in the 15 months since the beginning of the war. Western sources are more conservative in their estimates of the number of Russian dead, but still suggest that the figure is more like 100,000. An assessment by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency that was leaked in April found that Russia had suffered 189,500-223,000 total casualties, including 35,500-43,000 dead and 154,000-180,000 wounded (https://www.newsweek.com/how-russia-lost-200000-soldiers-ukraine-1800426). Given, too, that not all members of a country's army are not foot soldiers - "40% of service members do NOT see combat, and of the remaining 60%, only 10% to 20% are deployed into the combat premise. Plus, the majority of these members enter the arena as supporting units" (https://www.thesoldiersproject.org/what-percentage-of-the-military-sees-combat/). So the numbers published in an annual decree of August 25, 2022 are meaningless in June 2023.

===You never provide links to the sources of your information - or disinformation, as the case may be.===
Sure, why should I do it? It is public information, anyone may find it in searchengines.

Well, whenever I use search engines for confirmation of the "public information" you post, I can never find it - but I do find public information which does not confirm what you post - such as that I've given in this posting.

However, I admit that you may be correct in stating earlier that the Wagner Group, which Putin claims is entirely funded by the Russian state, is operating as usual and not as part of the Russian armed forces. The BBC website is currently stating that its own reporters in Russia have found that it is still recruiting members. "Several people who picked up the phone stressed that new members were signing contracts with the mercenary group itself, not the Russian defence ministry." The report also states "And yet the criminal case against the mutineers has been dropped, in a country where multiple opposition activists are serving long prison sentences just for speaking out against Russia's war on Ukraine" (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66060392). This is from reporters inside Russia.

[Moses]

===You should read the Wikipedia article more carefully, as although it states that he was a collaborator it never states that he belonged to the Nazi party.===

Please find any my post where I call Shushkevych "Nazi".

"You should read" my posts "more carefully".

And by the way: it is historical fact what Shushkevich is responsible for deaths of tens of thousands of Jewish (Holocaust) and Polish people (Volyn). Why you advocating him here?

[arsenal]

Back to more important matters of the satirical movie about the war.

Scene 1.
A young Putin is sitting at home watching The Zelensky Show. He's collapsing with laughter at the antics of this hilariously funny slapstick Polish comic.

"He's such a buffoon" shrieks Putin. He's a total clown. "

[Moses]

Back to more important matters of the satirical movie about the war.

Scene 1.
A young Putin is sitting at home watching The Zelensky Show. He's collapsing with laughter at the antics of this hilariously funny slapstick Polish comic.

"He's such a buffoon" shrieks Putin. He's a total clown. "

2016. Starting from 0:30


https://youtu.be/oua0Puihrkc

[Dragonman]

===You should read the Wikipedia article more carefully, as although it states that he was a collaborator it never states that he belonged to the Nazi party.===

Please find any my post where I call Shushkevych "Nazi".

"You should read" my posts "more carefully".

And by the way: it is historical fact what Shushkevich is responsible for deaths of tens of thousands of Jewish (Holocaust) and Polish people (Volyn). Why you advocating him here?

I can admit when I am wrong, and accept the correction as I interpreted what you had written as meaning that Shushkevich was a member of the Nazi party.

With regard to it being "an historical fact" that Shushkevich was responsible for deaths of tens of thousands of Jewish (Holocaust) and Polish people (Volyn), the Wikipedia article indicates that some of claims about his actions and responsibilities need further investigation (e.g., allegations "made by whom?").

With regard to Shukhevych being a "Ukrainian national hero," the Wikipedia article also notes that the Supreme Administrative Court of Ukraine ruled in August 2011 that Shukhevych's "Hero of Ukraine" title was illegal, on the grounds that, as he died by suicide in 1950, he was not a Ukrainian citizen. During his lifetime, he was (of course) a citizen of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. That being the case, the USSR should be assigned the responsibility for explaining his actions.

In any event, pointing out that your statements can be questioned is not the same as "advocating him here."

Incidentally, as you seem to conflate the massacres of Jews with National Socialism, you might find it interesting to read the Wikipedia article on Russian pogroms in Ukraine and Poland, beginning with the 1821 progrom in Odessa, continuing with those in 1881-1884 in Poland and Ukraine, and in 1903-1906.

[Dragonman]

2016. Starting from 0:30


https://youtu.be/oua0Puihrkc

I expect that Zelenskyy, a Ukrainian Jew, will play "Hava Nagila" (הָבָה נָגִילָה, "Let us rejoice") again when this war ends with a Russian collapse.

[Moses]

=== Incidentally, as you seem to conflate the massacres of Jews with National Socialism, you might find it interesting to read the Wikipedia article on Russian pogroms in Ukraine and Poland, beginning with the 1821 progrom in Odessa, continuing with those in 1881-1884 in Poland and Ukraine, and in 1903-1906. ===

How it is relevant to naming streets in Kiyev in memory of Shushkevych by modern Nazi regime in Ukraine?

Here it is:

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[Dragonman]

[QUOTE=Moses;294927]=== Incidentally, as you seem to conflate the massacres of Jews with National Socialism, you might find it interesting to read the Wikipedia article on Russian pogroms in Ukraine and Poland, beginning with the 1821 progrom in Odessa, continuing with those in 1881-1884 in Poland and Ukraine, and in 1903-1906. ===

How it is relevant to naming streets in Kiyev in memory of Shushkevych by modern Nazi regime in Ukraine?

It is relevant because the Russian state has a long history of committing genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, including the 22,000 Polish army officers massacred in the Katyn Forest, and the millions of Ukrainians who died in the Holodomor (which is internationally recognized as genocide by at least 32 governments).

There is an English-language saying "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." This is used to say that people who have faults should not criticize other people for having the same faults, i.e., if Russia claims that Ukraine is full of Nazis, it should ensure that the same condition does not apply in Russia.

There are, however, numerous reports that Neo-Nazis are very active in Russia, e.g.,
Russia's long history of neo-Nazis, La Trobe University, https://www.latrobe.edu.au › news › articles › opinion
Neo-Nazism in Russia, Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Neo-Nazism_in_Russia
Russia is the World's Breeding Ground for Neo-Nazi Culture -, EU Political Report, https://www.eupoliticalreport.eu › russia-is-the-worlds-...
Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, https://www.rferl.org › russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukr...
Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine, The Moscow Times, https://www.themoscowtimes.com ›

There are many more such articles are on the Internet. They are indicative of why your continued reference to Nazis in Ukraine rings hollow and why nobody (apart from perhaps some but not all Russians) believes Putin's claim that the war is about de-Nazifying Ukraine. If Putin really doesn't like Nazis, then he should put his own house in order first.

[Moses]

========== It is relevant because the Russian state has a long history of committing genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, including the 22,000 Polish army officers massacred in the Katyn Forest, and the millions of Ukrainians who died in the Holodomor (which is internationally recognized as genocide by at least 32 governments). =========

It was not "Russian state", but USSR, and Holodomor was result of a stupid activity of Ukrainian communists in Ukraine within USSR. You may continue to blame them or Georgian Stalin - your choice dear.

General secretary of Ukrainian Communist party in 1924-1928 was Kaganovich. Born to Jewish parents in Ukraine.
General secretary in 1928-1934 was Stanisław Kosior from Poland.


In July 1928, Kosior was appointed General Secretary of the Ukrainian SSR Communist Party. His return coincided with Stalin's decision to drive the peasants onto collective farms, a policy Kosior supported. Speaking to the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, in November 1929, he argued that collectivisation was the only way to make progress in agriculture. In February 1930, he declared that Ukraine would be "completely collectivised in the course of the spring sowing campaign."[2]

In July 1930, he was elevated to the Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. After the harvest in 1931, Kosior knew that collectivisation was causing a catastrophic fall in agricultural output in Ukraine - visiting Moscow in August, he warned Stalin's deputy, Lazar Kaganovich, that there would be a shortfall of 170 million poods (nearly three million tons) of grain, but Kaganovich blamed the problem on mass theft by Ukrainian peasants and forced Kosior to follow this opinion.[3][4]

Addressing a plenum of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (of which he had been a member since 1926) he blamed the failure on middle ranking officials and party members who listened to the complaints of peasants that the quotas were too high. "Not only did they not fight; not only did they fail to organise the collective farm masses in the struggle for bread against the class enemy, they often followed along with this peasant mood", he said.[5]

On Stalin's orders, Kosior pushed through a decree “On grain procurements” on 15 January 1932, which increased the power of the central government in Kharkiv to direct the confiscation of grain in the regions. The fact that he imposed this measure, "in spite of starvation in Ukrainian villages", was the first several examples cited by the Kyiv Court of Appeal in its 2010 resolution that judged Kosior to have been complicit in genocide.[6] The court also recorded that on 1 February, he and Vlas Chubar co-signed a decree “On Seed”, directing local committees to deny any seed aid to Ukraine’s collective farms; on 17 March he signed a decree “On seed reserves”, which led to increased repression of peasants who were resisting the confiscation of grain; and on 29 March, he pushed through a decree “On Polissia", under which 5,000 peasant families were deported from the Polissia region of Ukraine.[6]

In April 1932, after touring the countryside, Kosior wrote to Stalin to say that there had been trouble from hungry peasants refusing to sow grain, and delicately requested that food be sent to Ukraine, which prompted an angry rejection, and seemingly made Stalin suspect that Kosior was not ruthless enough.[7] "The worst aspect of this situation is Kosior's silence," he told Kaganovich, when other leading Ukrainian communists pleaded for help. When Kosior submitted a formal request for relief to the Politburo in Moscow, in June it was turned down flat, and Kaganovich warned him his "mistakes" would be held as an example to other regional party leaders of how not to do their job. This was because Kosior's attempt to find an accommodation between Moscow's demands and the crisis in the countryside had turned Stalin against him. He told Kaganovich that Kosior was "manoeuvring" and engaging in "rotten diplomacy" and being "criminally frivolous." He considered sacking Kosior and sending Kaganovich in his place.[8] However, Kosior and his deputy, Pavel Postyshev, met Stalin, who agreed to reduce Ukraine's grain quota. That seemed to settle their differences.

In November, Kosior delivered a speech blaming the trouble in the countryside on Ukrainian nationalists.[9] In 1935 he was awarded the Order of Lenin "for remarkable success in the field of agriculture".[10]

more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Kosior

So, tell me: whom you prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide: Jewish, Georgian or Polish?

[Moses]

and question: how Holodomor at past excuse modern Nazi regime in Ukraine and renaming streets in Ukraina in memory of well known murderer of Jewish and Polish people - Shukhevych and build up monuments in memory?

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[Dragonman]

========== It is relevant because the Russian state has a long history of committing genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, including the 22,000 Polish army officers massacred in the Katyn Forest, and the millions of Ukrainians who died in the Holodomor (which is internationally recognized as genocide by at least 32 governments). =========

It was not "Russian state", but USSR, and Holodomor was result of a stupid activity of Ukrainian communists in Ukraine within USSR. You may continue to blame them or Georgian Stalin - your choice dear.

General secretary of Ukrainian Communist party in 1924-1928 was Kaganovich. Born to Jewish parents in Ukraine.
General secretary in 1928-1934 was Stanisław Kosior from Poland.

more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Kosior

So, tell me: whom you prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide: Jewish, Georgian or Polish?

You are grasping at straws in trying to support the rationale advanced for this war which began on Thursday, February 20, 2014, and is currently in day 494 of the "special military operation" that was supposed to last three days or so.

In assigning blame, it needs to be remembered that both the Russian Empire before 1971, and the Soviet Union from 1917 to its collapse, as well as the current Russian Federation, were and are transcontinental multiethnic states.

If you want to distinguish between the USSR and Russia, the largest state in the Soviet Union, then Russian Empire citizens were responsible for the genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, that took place before 1917, and Soviet Union citizens after that date.

Lazar Kaganovich was, indeed, born as a citizen of the Russian Empire to Jewish parents and married a Kievan Jewish wife. However, as the Wikipedia article on him notes, he "frequently found it necessary to allow great cruelties to occur to his family to preserve Stalin's trust in him, such as allowing his brother to be coerced into suicide." Together with Vyacheslav Molotov, he was given the task of implementation of the collectivization policy that influenced the 1932–33 famine in Ukraine.

Stanisław Kosior was born in 1889 in Węgrów in the Siedlce Governorate of the Russian Empire, i.e., though ethncially Polish, he was born a Russian citizen, as was Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (born Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili), who was born in a poor ethnic Georgian family in the town of Gori in the Tiflis Governorate of the Russian Empire, i.e., as a Russian citizen.

So, to answer your question of whom I prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide, the answer is citizens of the Russian Empire and those of the Soviet Union who put the state above their own ethnic group.

On 13 January 2010, Kyiv Appellate Court posthumously found Kaganovich, Postyshev, Kosior, Chubar and other Soviet Communist Party functionaries guilty of genocide against Ukrainians. As noted in my earlier post, the famine is recognised as genocide by some 32 governments worldwide.

[Moses]

=====If you want to distinguish between the USSR and Russia, the largest state in the Soviet Union, then Russian Empire citizens were responsible for the genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, that took place before 1917, and Soviet Union citizens after that date.====

Indeed. Do you know who was Sophie Friederike Auguste von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg?

===So, to answer your question of whom I prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide, the answer is citizens of the Russian Empire and those of the Soviet Union who put the state above their own ethnic group.===
Well, then you should blame communists.

[Dragonman]

=====Indeed. Do you know who was Sophie Friederike Auguste von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg? ====== Well, then you should blame communists.

Grasping at more straws? Princess Sophie Friederike Auguste von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg is better known as Catherine II, the Great, and the wife/widow of Emperor Peter III of the House of Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp. As both, by ancestry, were German, I guess you are now going to blame individual Germans for past atrocities. That, however, would ignore that fact that they were the rulers of the Russian, not the German, Empire, and their orders were carried out by Imperial Russian citizens.

Shifting blame to the Communists, without acknowledging that they were citizens of the Soviet Union, is also grasping at straws. Perhaps you want to do back far enough, given that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engel, authors of the "Communist Manifesto," were born in the German Empire, Marx into a family of Jewish ancestry, so that you can blame the actions of the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and the Russian Federation on the Germans and the Jews?

[Dragonman]

and question: how Holodomor at past excuse modern Nazi regime in Ukraine and renaming streets in Ukraina in memory of well known murderer of Jewish and Polish people - Shukhevych and build up monuments in memory?

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Still playing the same old tune - that there is a modern Nazi regime in Ukraine?

An article entitled "Statement on the War in Ukraine by Scholars of Genocide, Nazism and World War II," written by Izabella Tabarovsky and published in Jewish Journal (https://jewishjournal.com/news/worldwide/345515/statement-on-the-war-in-ukraine-by-scholars-of-genocide-nazism-and-world-war-ii/) on February 27, 2022m categorically states "Russian propaganda has painted the Ukrainian state as Nazi and fascist ever since Russian special forces first entered Ukraine in 2014, annexing the Crimea and fomenting the conflict in the Donbas, which has smoldered for eight long years. It was propaganda in 2014. It remains propaganda today."

The statement, by signed by more than 300 historians who study genocide, Nazism and World War II, said Putin’s rhetoric about de-Nazifying fascists among Ukraine’s elected leadership is “propaganda.” “We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression,” the statement says. “This rhetoric is factually wrong, morally repugnant and deeply offensive to the memory of millions of victims of Nazism and those who courageously fought against it, including Russian and Ukrainian soldiers of the Red Army."

This is not to deny that ultra-right wing groups do exist in Ukraine, as they do in many other countries including the Russian Federation, but to claim that there is a " modern Nazi regime in Ukraine" is just monumentally stupid.

With regard to erecting statues, many countries in the former Soviet sphere of influence in Eastern Europe had statues of Lenin until they were removed after the invasion of Ukraine in 2022, but that did not mean they were still Communist. There is a statue of Lenin in Seattle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin_(Seattle), but that doesn't mean Washington State has a communist government.

Surely you don't think that the statue of Lenin at the entrance to Belfast's The Kremlin Bar, a gay bar, is/was not meant to suggest that Lenin was gay hero? See "A giant Lenin statue heralds proletariats of all ages to what many regard as Ireland's number one gay hot spot." (https://www.inyourpocket.com/belfast/Kremlin_28094v).

[Moses]

====The statement, by signed by more than 300 historians who study genocide, Nazism and World War II, said Putin’s rhetoric about de-Nazifying fascists among Ukraine’s elected leadership is “propaganda.====

So, it is Putin made installations of monuments in memory of Shukhevych, who is responsible for deaths of tens thousands Jewish and Polish? Streets were renamed also by Putin's order?

[Moses]

And, dear, you will get bad position in this dispute, if you will talk about history in 17-19 centuries.

Because I will remind you just one word: slavery. Centuries of slavery for which West is responsible.

[Dragonman]

====The statement, by signed by more than 300 historians who study genocide, Nazism and World War II, said Putin’s rhetoric about de-Nazifying fascists among Ukraine’s elected leadership is “propaganda.====

So, it is Putin made installations of monuments in memory of Shukhevych, who is responsible for deaths of tens thousands Jewish and Polish? Streets were renamed also by Putin's order?

This posting is in line with your general practice of asking a question that is unrelated to my posting because you can't answer it in any other way.

[Dragonman]

And, dear, you will get bad position in this dispute, if you will talk about history in 17-19 centuries.

Because I will remind you just one word: slavery. Centuries of slavery for which West is responsible.

What about the centuries of slavery in Russia, which was a home-grown institution? Have you read "11 - Russian Slavery and Serfdom, 1450–1804, from PART IV - SLAVERY AND SERFDOM IN EASTERN EUROPE, Published online by Cambridge University Press: 28 September 2011 (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-world-history-of-slavery/russian-slavery-and-serfdom-14501804/913BE836084D8FA66B76BFBAADF77BB1): "Slavery, by contrast, was an ancient institution in Russia and effectively was abolished in the 1720s. Serfdom, which began in 1450, evolved into near-slavery in the eighteenth century and was finally abolished in 1906. Serfdom in its Russian variant could not have existed without the precedent and presence of slavery."

Or "The 2018 Global Slavery Index estimates 794,000 people currently living in slavery-like conditions in Russia. This includes forced labor, forced prostitution, debt bondage, forced servile marriage, exploitation of children, and forced prison labor" (Walk Free Foundation. "The Global Slavery Index 2018" (PDF)."

Or "800,000 Modern-Day Slaves Are Living in Russia, Report Says" (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/07/23/800000-human-slaves-living-in-russia-report-says-a62317)

Or "Why is Russia obsessed with slavery? Tibor Szamuely: ‘The Russian Tradition’ BY Christopher Caldwell (https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-is-russia-obsessed-with-slavery/): For Szamuely, the central problem in Russian history is slavery. Yes, slavery. Using the word “serf” to describe its put-upon agricultural workers leads us to think of the society as merely backward, quaint, feudal. But this is wrong. Russian slavery was a creation of modernity. Once-free agricultural labourers somehow got buried under debt about 500 years ago, and in the mid-16th century the government bound them to the land, the better to tax them. The owner of the serfs was the state, not the notables on whose land they toiled. There was an equality in this, for the notables were beholden to the state, too. The upper crust owed the tsar military service. Until recent centuries, Russia was one of the rare countries where nobles could be publicly flogged.

And have you forgotten I don't live in the West, so such an attempt to shame me is inappropriate.

[Moses]

=====And have you forgotten I don't live in the West, so such an attempt to shame me is inappropriate.====

I don't care where are you living. I shame you for Nazi advocating and support.

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[arsenal]

Boy second from the right and boy between baldy man's head and arm I so would. I might join if there's hot boy crumpets on offer.

[Dragonman]

=====And have you forgotten I don't live in the West, so such an attempt to shame me is inappropriate.====

I don't care where are you living. I shame you for Nazi advocating and support.

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There is a difference between pointing out that no-one (including the Israelis) other than Putin and his Russian supporters believes that the Ukrainian government is a Nazi one and "Nazi advocating and support." And more Russian Jews than Ukrainian ones are fleeing to Israel (https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/israel-faces-a-bigger-influx-of-russian-jews-than-ukrainian-jews-56189.

I believe the image is one you have used before.

And once again you respond to only part of a posting because you know that they rest of it is true.

[Moses]

===And once again you respond to only part of a posting because you know that they rest of it is true.===
I just continue to point you to the facts what you cannot deny.

Nazi marching by Ukrainian streets, war criminals as Shukhevych have memorials and in memory of them renamed Ukrainian streets.

[Dragonman]

[QUOTE=Moses;294944]===And once again you respond to only part of a posting because you know that they rest of it is true.===
I just continue to point you to the facts what you cannot deny.

Moses, imagine someone saying "the world's tiniest violin" or picture someone playing a violin.

When someone says "the world's tiniest violin" to someone, it is often used to sarcastically express disinterest or lack of sympathy for someone's complaints or misfortunes. It implies that the person's problems are not significant enough to warrant attention or concern. The phrase is often accompanied by a gesture of rubbing the thumb and forefinger together, as if playing a small violin.

Alternatively, someone may mime playing a violin, with the same meaning.

You have harped (another musical expression) on this theme so long that no-one cares. Although such monuments and a single avenue do exist, they do not justify an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign state, especially when the invading forces use neo-Nazi mercenary armies (Wagner Group and its Sabotage Assault Reconnaissance Group (DShRG) "Rusich" (Russian: Диверсионно-штурмовая разведывательная группа «Русич» unit) as part of the invading forces.

[Dax]

Reading these comments takes me back to my old college days. Dragonman, did you ever teach or lecture? I enjoy your knowledge and the skill in which you expound your arguments. On another note, I anxiously await Ukraine's complete and decisive victory over Russia and her allies. Slava Ukraine forever!

[Dragonman]

Reading these comments takes me back to my old college days. Dragonman, did you ever teach or lecture? I enjoy your knowledge and the skill in which you expound your arguments. On another note, I anxiously await Ukraine's complete and decisive victory over Russia and her allies. Slava Ukraine forever!

Dax, thanks for your comment. The answer to your question is that I was a university full professor till recently, and that old habits die hard. Getting postgraduate master's and doctoral students (and sometimes even stubborn colleagues) to THINK about what they are reading, writing or saying, and then to be able to argue based on facts, and not on opinions, biases, or prejudices, was one of the best parts of the job.

With regard to the second part of your posting on the present Russo-Ukrainian situation, I deplore the unnecessary deaths and injuries on both sides. As is usual in most wars, it is not the politicians who hid away in bunkers kilometres behind the front lines who make the ultimate sacrifice, but the poor conscripts who lack the means to avoid conscription.

Every day that the war drags on is one day too many.

[Moses]

====Dax, thanks for your comment. The answer to your question is that I was a university full professor till recently, and that old habits die hard. Getting postgraduate master's and doctoral students (and sometimes even stubborn colleagues) to THINK about what they are reading, writing or saying, and then to be able to argue based on facts, and not on opinions, biases, or prejudices, was one of the best parts of the job.====

Unless you are graduated in political science or study Russia, your knowledges are useless in this dispute.

More over: your habit to deny simple facts whet current regime in Ukraine admire and glorify Nazi and nationalism, make doubtful your skills in dispute.

Shame on Nazi protectors.

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[Dragonman]

====

Unless you are graduated in political science or study Russia, your knowledges are useless in this dispute.]

FYI, My academic credentials begin with a Combined Honours degree in Modern History, Politics and Economics, and carry on from there.

[latintopxxx]

i assume you got your credentials before sp called intelligent people (even US supreme court judfges) had difficulty in defining a woman....

[Dragonman]

i assume you got your credentials before sp called intelligent people (even US supreme court judfges) had difficulty in defining a woman....

Yes, much before.

[cdnmatt]

And Sweden has the green light to become the 32nd member of NATO.

Seems like Putin's plan is back firing here.

[Dodger]

The announcement that Sweden will now become the 32nd member of NATO pretty much closes the lid on any prospects Putin had of a) weakening NATO after launching his "special operation", and b) posing any great threat to Europe as a whole in the future.

Sweden now has much greater security being teamed with the largest military alliance in the world, while making a significant contribution to NATO forces as well. Sweden's strength comes from their mastery of technology. Particularly, in three key elements of warfare: speed, surveillance, and stealth. Besides having a formidable ground force the Swedish Air Force today stands as one of the finest and most modern in the world.

I'm sure Lukashenko is delighted at the news...LOL.

[arsenal]

"Sweden now has much greater security being teamed with the largest military alliance in the world, while making a significant contribution to NATO forces as well. Sweden's strength comes from their mastery of technology. Particularly, in three key elements of warfare: speed, surveillance, and stealth. Besides having a formidable ground force the Swedish Air Force today stands as one of the finest and most modern in the world."

Also, if they drop boxed sets of Abba on the Russian forces they'll be unable to resist the urge to dance rendering them incapable of mass slaughter of civilians.

[Dragonman]

As well as Ukraine, two other NATO partner countries have declared their wish for NATO membership: Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Georgia (which has a border with Russia).

[Dodger]

Over a year already and they still haven't found those dam Nazi's yet...go figure.

I imagine they could have all fled to places like Kazakhstan and /or Mongolia disguised as Russian migrant workers, or maybe even crossed into Belarus to join forces with their fellow inmates in the Wagner Group. Who knows!

In any event it's hard to imagine how Putin will ever rest easy knowing that all those Nazi's are still running around loose.

[Moses]

And Sweden has the green light to become the 32nd member of NATO.

Seems like Putin's plan is back firing here.

You promised that 1 year ago. Your forecasts are based on random numbers generator :) As I told - no chance for that yeaк ago, even now it is quite questionable.

[cdnmatt]

You promised that 1 year ago. Your forecasts are based on random numbers generator :) As I told - no chance for that yeaк ago, even now it is quite questionable.

What are you talking about? Putin's goal was to weaken NATO, if not straight out invade various European countries. Instead, the NATO-Russia border has more than doubled since the beginning of the Ukraine war.

[Moses]

What are you talking about? Putin's goal was to weaken NATO, if not straight out invade various European countries. Instead, the NATO-Russia border has more than doubled since the beginning of the Ukraine war.

Dear, Erdogan will keep Sweden on short rope, and until Turkey will be accepted in EU as a member, no Sweden will be in NATO. So now again one more "roadmap" how Sweden will fight with Kurdish opposition (they will not) who is living is Sweden.. Don't expect Sweden will be in NATO soon.
Turkey is waiting over 30 year for EU membership. So will Sweden.

[cdnmatt]

Dear, Erdogan will keep Sweden on short rope, and until Turkey will be accepted in EU as a member, no Sweden will be in NATO.

Turkey already took the EU requirement off the table, almost the same day he tried to add it on. Sweden has already met all of Turkey's other conditions, and Turkey has said it will grant Sweden's membership.

As for "short leash", that doesn't even make sense as it's not a thing. Being a NATO member is a pretty binary thing -- either you are or you aren't, there's no middle ground. If a "short leash" was possible within NATO guaranteed Turkey would be on it due to its abysmal human rights record, but they're not, because it doesn't exist.

I think you may want to prepare yourself for the fact that Russia is eventually going to lose this war, and when they do, Russia may collapse again circa 1991. Went from Soviet Union down to modern day Russia, and you might be getting smaller. Not sure where in Russia you are, but hey, you might be in a brand new country once this is all over.

[Dragonman]

Dear, Erdogan will keep Sweden on short rope, and until Turkey will be accepted in EU as a member, no Sweden will be in NATO. So now again one more "roadmap" how Sweden will fight with Kurdish opposition (they will not) who is living is Sweden.. Don't expect Sweden will be in NATO soon.
Turkey is waiting over 30 year for EU membership. So will Sweden.

Given that NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg stated (July 10) that "Sweden, in return for Erdogan’s support, addressed Turkey’s security concerns and “significantly expanded” its counter-terrorism efforts against the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), and would help Turkey enter the E.U." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/07/10/turkeys-erdogan-agrees-to-endorse-swedens-nato-bid-stoltenberg-says/?sh=42b7a483511f), both countries will wait significantly less than 30 years, maybe even less than 30 months, to see their wishes granted.

[cdnmatt]

I know Turkey really wants to get into the EU due to its current economic troubles, but I think they'll be waiting awhile. Both, human rights record and democratic institutions aren't exactly up to snuff.

[arsenal]

Right now the war has shifted in favour of Russia.

The Spring Offensive Zelensky promised never materialised.

The delivery of cluster bombs from the US is proof the Russian fortifications are beyond anything the Ukrainians have.

Potentially worse are the clear signs the West is tiring of bankrolling this with seemingly no end in sight.

Ben Wallace's pointed comments probably speak for many countries feelings.

[cdnmatt]

Right now the war has shifted in favour of Russia.

The Spring Offensive Zelensky promised never materialised.

The delivery of cluster bombs from the US is proof the Russian fortifications are beyond anything the Ukrainians have.

Potentially worse are the clear signs the West is tiring of bankrolling this with seemingly no end in sight.

Ben Wallace's pointed comments probably speak for many countries feelings.



Wouldn't say that. I'm quite confident the West will keep the pressure up, as the West has learned from WWII that threats like Russia can't be left unattended. For example, Germany invaded Poland on Sept 1st, 1939. London was first bombed a simple year later on Sept 7th, 1940.

The West knows Putin has ambitions outside of Ukraine, so I would expect the West to continue bank rollling the Ukraine war so the war doesn't end up in central Europe and possibley beyond.

Russia is also hurting right now in almost all areas -- seem to be running out of soldiers, weapons running low and for example there's reports of T34 tanks being seen roaming around Ukraine, sanctions are starting to bite hard, ruble has been falling lately, gas revenue from EUeope has now all but dried up, et al.

[Moses]

====I think you may want to prepare yourself for the fact that Russia is eventually going to lose this war, and when they do, Russia may collapse again circa 1991. Went from Soviet Union down to modern day Russia, and you might be getting smaller. Not sure where in Russia you are, but hey, you might be in a brand new country once this is all over.=====

Matt, you already predicted "default" of Russia at least 5 times in this thread.

Your dreams are zero coherent with reality. And reality is: in 2023 even under sanctions inflation in Russia is lower than in most Western countries, GDP is rising more than in most Western countries.

[Moses]

Given that NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg stated (July 10) that "Sweden, in return for Erdogan’s support, addressed Turkey’s security concerns and “significantly expanded” its counter-terrorism efforts against the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), and would help Turkey enter the E.U." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/07/10/turkeys-erdogan-agrees-to-endorse-swedens-nato-bid-stoltenberg-says/?sh=42b7a483511f), both countries will wait significantly less than 30 years, maybe even less than 30 months, to see their wishes granted.

Position of Erdogan is clearly stated exactly on July 10:

"First, let's pave the way for Türkiye in the EU, and then we will pave the way for Sweden just as we did for Finland."

https://www.trtworld.com/turkiye/erdogan-presses-for-turkiyes-eu-membership-to-ratify-swedens-nato-bid-13978303

[Dragonman]

The Prussian general and military theorist Carl von Clausewitz wrote "If . . . we consider the pure concept of war . . . . its aim would have always and solely to be to overcome the enemy and disarm him." This encompasses "three broad objectives, which between them cover everything: destroying the enemy's armed forces; occupying his country; and breaking his will to continue the struggle" (Michael Howard/Peter Paret translation, Princeton University Press, 1976/84, page 90).

In the 500 or so days since the beginning of the "special military operation" that was supposed to be over in less than a week, the Russian forces have failed not only to overcome and disarm the Ukrainian forces, they show no signs of destroying the Ukrainian forces, occupying the country, or in breaking the will of the Ukrainian people.

[cdnmatt]

Matt, you already predicted "default" of Russia at least 5 times in this thread.

And since the war began you've been saying it will be over with Russia as the victor within 2 or 3 weeks. What's your point?

Since the West publicly bragged about how much military gear it will be sending Ukraine and when, Russia had months to dig in defensively. Russia doesn't even seem to be bothering with offensive operations right now. The chances of Russia being able to take and hold Kiev are about 0. Ok, not about 0, exactly 0.

[Moses]

====In the 500 or so days since the beginning of the "special military operation" that was supposed to be over in less than a week, the Russian forces have failed not only to overcome and disarm the Ukrainian forces, they show no signs of destroying the Ukrainian forces, occupying the country, or in breaking the will of the Ukrainian people.===

Do you want to discuss 20 years of US war in Afghanistan?

[Moses]

===Since the West publicly bragged about how much military gear it will be sending Ukraine and when, Russia had months to dig in defensively. Russia doesn't even seem to be bothering with offensive operations right now. The chances of Russia being able to take and hold Kiev are about 0. Ok, not about 0, exactly 0.====

Should it? Russia stays on position, destroys onу by one Ukrainian battalions and Western military machines. 50% of Ukrainian power supply network is laying in ruins, 30% of supplied tanks and artillery is trash now. Western sponsors of war are discouraged, support of Ukraine is going down (in last package about 70% of support are loans and credits instead of donations), meanwhile Russia got new lands and is still stable.

If West wants to have this war in style "till the last Ukrainian" then Ok, nobody cares here.

If you sit by the river for long enough, you will see the body of your enemy float by.

[Dragonman]

====In the 500 or so days since the beginning of the "special military operation" that was supposed to be over in less than a week, the Russian forces have failed not only to overcome and disarm the Ukrainian forces, they show no signs of destroying the Ukrainian forces, occupying the country, or in breaking the will of the Ukrainian people.===

Do you want to discuss 20 years of US war in Afghanistan?

Sure, although I'm not American and the same rationale for Russia's invasion of Ukraine does not apply.

But only if you want to discuss the Soviet Union's 10-year involvement in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, or its 1939 invasion of Finland first, or its failures in the Polish–Soviet War (1919–21) and in the independence wars for Estonia (1918–20), Latvia (1918–20) and Lithuania (1918–19), remembering that the Russian Federation is legally regarded as the USSR's successor, which is why it automatically succeeded to its UN seat, including its permanent membership on the Security Council after the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union, which originally co-founded the UN in 1945.

What is interesting is that Soviet strategists/Russian Marxists are reported to have studied Clausewitz with care, and have appropriated his ideas, and even his actual words, very freely (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russian-federation/1950-10-01/clausewitz-and-soviet-strategy). Moreover, Clausewitz also examined the Russo-Turkish War of 1736–1739, a precursor to the latter annexation of Crimea, in which he described Imperial Russian unpreparedness in terms similar to the current conditions (https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2023/03/02/clausewitzs_analysis_resonates_to_this_day_885101. html).

[Dragonman]

===Since the West publicly bragged about how much military gear it will be sending Ukraine and when, Russia had months to dig in defensively. Russia doesn't even seem to be bothering with offensive operations right now. The chances of Russia being able to take and hold Kiev are about 0. Ok, not about 0, exactly 0.====

Should it? Russia stays on position, destroys onу by one Ukrainian battalions and Western military machines. 50% of Ukrainian power supply network is laying in ruins, 30% of supplied tanks and artillery is trash now. Western sponsors of war are discouraged, support of Ukraine is going down (in last package about 70% of support are loans and credits instead of donations), meanwhile Russia got new lands and is still stable.

If West wants to have this war in style "till the last Ukrainian" then Ok, nobody cares here.

If you sit by the river for long enough, you will see the body of your enemy float by.

In reality, journalists at the independent Russian media outlets Meduza and Mediazone, who collaborated with a university statistician to analyze publicly accessible records, claim the number of Russian fatalities so far is three times the number of Soviet troops killed in more than 10 years of war in Afghanistan. The journalists stated that, “By our calculations, as of late May 2023, roughly 47,000 Russian men under the age of 50 have died in the war. To be absolutely precise, we can assert with a 95% probability that the true number of casualties falls between 40,000 and 55,000. This estimate does not take into account the losses of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People’s Republic (LPR)” (https://en.zona.media/article/2023/07/10/stats).

The Economist (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/07/12/a-new-study-finds-that-47000-russian-combatants-have-died-in-ukraine) carried an interesting graph illustrating the expansion in the gender gap in inheritance filings in weekly probate cases for 20- to 24-year-old for men and women. The loss of these young men will have for-reaching implications for Russia’s future, which means that somebody will care. Statistica reported that the gap between the number of women and men in Russia was measured at 10.25 million as of January 1, 2022, with the female population of the country historically outnumbering the male population (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090643/population-russia-gender-age-group/). The gap is widening, and is presently at about current male population at 46.3%, and current female population at 53.7% of total population.

Al Jazeera reported that Ukraine had suffered 124,500 to 131,000 total casualties, including 15,500 to 17,500 killed in action and 109,000 to 113,500 wounded in action, according to the document titled, “Russia/Ukraine – Assessed Combat Sustainability and Attrition” (April 12, 2023), acknowledging that the figures are approximately 10 times larger than any public casualty figure published by either Moscow or Kyiv (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/4/12/ukraine-war-likely-to-stretch-past-2023-purported-us-documents).

The number of Russian deaths, therefore is somewhere between 2 and 3 to 1 in favour of the Ukrainians.

With regard to equipment losses, so far in its Ukrainian invasion, the Russian Federation has also lost more than 11146 pieces of military equipment (of which: destroyed: 7459, damaged: 425, abandoned: 422, captured: 2840) (https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html) according to the Dutch open-source intelligence website Oryx, which has been collecting visual evidence of military equipment losses in Ukraine since Russia’s invasion began.

In contrast, Oryx estimates Ukrainian equipment losses at 3892, of which: destroyed: 2549, damaged: 274, abandoned: 135, captured: 924 (https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html). Some of these losses have been made up by repairing captured Russian equipment, though.

Other reports suggest that only 40% of Ukraine's power supply has been destroyed.

As the Dnieper River passes through both Ukraine and Russia, which country supplies the most corpses is still being determined.

Reality is complicated and troublesome.

[Dodger]

While Erdogan's green light was crucial, Turkey's parliament still needs to ratify the accession. When the agreement between Sweden, Turkey and NATO was announced on Monday, July 10, no precise date was given for the vote. "As soon as possible", NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters.

The Turkish parliament's programme ends on July 18 according to the official timetable, and it is not expected to resume its session until September.

Hungary, the other remaining member of NATO's 31 allies still to ratify Sweden's entry, has made it clear that it will not delay the issue any further. Ratification is "only a technical question," Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto said on Tuesday.

Based on these acknowledgements it appears as if Sweden's entry into NATO will be fully ratified in the September time frame.

Turkey's desire to enter the EU did not appear to be one of the bargaining chips...but the sale of U.S. made F-16 fighter jets to Turkey was. Turkey may have to wait until hell freezes over to gain entry into the EU (and I personally hope they do) - but Sweden will be entering NATO in a matter of weeks which is cause for celebration.

[Dragonman]

Based on these acknowledgements it appears as if Sweden's entry into NATO will be fully ratified in the September time frame.

Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (commonly called AKP in English) and its allies control 323 seats in Turkey's Grand National Assembly, and the Speaker of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey (GNAT) is the AKP's Deputy Chairman. Erdogan controls enough votes to get Sweden's accession to NATO passed, through probably not until October.

[cdnmatt]

Should it? Russia stays on position, destroys onу by one Ukrainian battalions and Western military machines.

Do you even hear yourself? How are you going to get the Nazis then?

Moreso, what was the point of this whole war then? So the Russian military can hang out in trenches in eastern Ukraine for a few years?

[Dodger]

Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (commonly called AKP in English) and its allies control 323 seats in Turkey's Grand National Assembly, and the Speaker of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey (GNAT) is the AKP's Deputy Chairman. Erdogan controls enough votes to get Sweden's accession to NATO passed, through probably not until October.

October sounds good!

[Moses]

===Based on these acknowledgements it appears as if Sweden's entry into NATO will be fully ratified in the September time frame.===

===Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (commonly called AKP in English) and its allies control 323 seats in Turkey's Grand National Assembly, and the Speaker of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey (GNAT) is the AKP's Deputy Chairman. Erdogan controls enough votes to get Sweden's accession to NATO passed, through probably not until October.===

So, September or October?
Propaganda promises a lot :)
Erdogan may do, but will he?

Once again:

"First, let's pave the way for Türkiye in the EU, and then we will pave the way for Sweden just as we did for Finland."

Few months ago:
13181

July 2023:
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[Dragonman]

===Based on these acknowledgements it appears as if Sweden's entry into NATO will be fully ratified in the September time frame.===

===Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (commonly called AKP in English) and its allies control 323 seats in Turkey's Grand National Assembly, and the Speaker of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey (GNAT) is the AKP's Deputy Chairman. Erdogan controls enough votes to get Sweden's accession to NATO passed, through probably not until October.===

So, September or October?
Propaganda promises a lot :)
Erdogan may do, but will he?

Once again:

Erdogan has been quoted as making the statement you posted, but it has to be put in context. Erdogan has also been reported (speaking in Turkish on three separate occasions) as not directly linking Sweden’s NATO accession to Turkey’s EU accession. He is reported as making the following three points in all his three declarations before and after meeting in Vilnius:

(1) He would, unconditionally, submit the Sweden’s NATO accession to a vote in the Turkish parliament, adding the caveat that he would only accept it as a done deal once the Turkish parliament approves it.
(2) He said that Turkey is waiting for EU candidacy for a long time, despite being a member of the European Council. He made this comment for the reason that he believes Turkey is not fairly treated, but he agrees for Sweden to join NATO for the peace in the world.
(3) He said that the US administration linked the renewal of Turkish F-16’s to Sweden’s NATO accession, and he hoped that this will fare positively.

As usual, however, we will have to wait to see what eventuates, bearing in mind that NATO is a military alliance, while the EU is an economic union. They have differing requirements for membership, as Erdogan is probably aware.