Expat Income Requirements Changing?

[Manforallseasons]

https://youtu.be/W_1Uc3dZQ-c


https://youtu.be/W_1Uc3dZQ-c

[cdnmatt]

Aren't Thai bank accounts only insured for up to 1 million THB?

[Gaybutton]

Aren't Thai bank accounts only insured for up to 1 million THB?

That is true. If you wish to save more than 1million baht and you feel concerned, you can open a second bank account.

I wouldn't start worrying about this. First, this applies only to the Los Angeles Thai Consulate and only about O-A visas which, in my opinion, these days is the most foolish visa to get with all the nonsense going on about it. What I noticed, but he did not mention, when he was showing the paperwork the proof of 65,000 baht per month income was now 100,000 baht per month.

Consulates, just like immigration, can be very good at making up their own rules. Sometimes when you walk into immigration, you can't be sure what you're walking into. In my opinion, for those who wish to retire in Thailand, do everything within Thailand for obtaining your visa. That way you will have an O visa, not an O-A. If you already hold an O-A, I would look into whatever is necessary to do to get it switched over to an O visa, even if it requires a Thai attorney or a visa agent to help get it done. And, as my dad used to say. "Do it now. RIGHT now!"

The way things are happening in Thailand, if you are going to retire in Thailand, you definitely want your retirement visa to be the O visa, not the O-A. And the only way to get the O visa is to get it within Thailand.

Other than that, I see no reason to be worried about any upcoming changes.

[2lz2p]

Interesting video, but as the person notes, he and his Thai legal staff have seen nothing officially of a change in financial requirements for retirement. But he does note that it may be a an indication of changes that will come about in the (near?) future.

Will such change come about -- IMO it is possible. The current requirement for 800,000 baht has been in place for more than 20 years. Needless to say, costs in Thailand have increased over those years. But, if it does come about, it most likely will only impact those obtaining visas or doing first extensions after rules are officially changed (which, as yet have not happened).

In the past, when changes were made, those already on extensions of stay were "grand fathered" in and so long as they keep their extensions continuous, the old amount (800k for most of us. Section 2.22 of the current Immigration Police order governing extensions has the following re those that were on extensions of stay prior to October 21, 1998:


(6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been
consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following
criteria:
(a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with fluids
maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have
a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000
(b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual
fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less
than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000

[Dodger]

The fact that the Managing Director of the Law Firm speaking in this video didn't contact the Royal Thai Consulate in LA directly to question this erroneous requirement BEFORE broadcasting this video publicly is both negligent and totally unprofessional in my opinion.

Law firms like this have a track-record of fear mongering when it serves their best interest, and personally, I won't pay any heed to this piece of flimsy speculation at all.

There are 63 Thai embassies and 40 consulates operating around the world and not a single one (other than LA) has mentioned this erroneous requirement. According to the Managing Directors own statements, there has been no mention of this policy change in Thailand at all. And that includes the Thai lawyers who work in his office, who, one would assume, are connected to the network over here and have their ears close to the train tracks. And one has heard anything?

He should have contacted the LA Consulate before opening his mouth...Bottom Line.

React as you choose. But I wouldn't go changing your visa classification (O, O-A, etc.)...messing with your bank account(s), or anything else based on this nonsense.

As 2Lz2p mentioned, if changes like this were to occur in the future they would probably apply the "grand father" clause anyway.

[Dodger]

Maybe the Integrity Legal Law Firm who produced this video should look at the LA Thai Consulates web site again. It appears as if the error has already been corrected. Go figure!

(Site link below)

O-A Visa Requirements:

4. Bank statement or evidence of adequate finance showing
– a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht; or
– an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht; or
– a deposit account plus a monthly income totaling not less than 800,000 Baht.
– In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank
(an original copy) is required.

https://thaiconsulatela.org/en/visa/visa-type/non-immigration-category-o-a/

[Manforallseasons]

Maybe the Integrity Legal Law Firm who produced this video should look at the LA Thai Consulates web site again. It appears as if the error has already been corrected. Go figure!

(Site link below)

O-A Visa Requirements:

4. Bank statement or evidence of adequate finance showing
– a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht; or
– an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht; or
– a deposit account plus a monthly income totaling not less than 800,000 Baht.
– In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank
(an original copy) is required.

https://thaiconsulatela.org/en/visa/visa-type/non-immigration-category-o-a/


This is there original site the video references the new updatesd site.

[Manforallseasons]

There is a saying “when someone tells you who they are believe them” the government wants wealthy tourists and expats, what part don’t you get?

[Gaybutton]

Law firms like this have a track-record of fear mongering when it serves their best interest, and personally, I won't pay any heed to this piece of flimsy speculation at all.
And it wouldn't be this guy's first time. It is exactly what you call it - fear mongering.

If anyone out there wants to get themselves nervous or frightened by this, be my guest.

Meanwhile, this was also posted on my board. I deleted it. I'll scare people when there's a good, valid, confirmed reason to scare them. This isn't it. There has been more than enough of that over the past few years.

The easiest way to avoid O-A visa problems is not to get an O-A visa. Come to Thailand. Get your retirement visa here. Now you'll have the O visa. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Manforallseasons]

And it wouldn't be this guy's first time. It is exactly what you call it - fear mongering.

If anyone out there wants to get themselves nervous or frightened by this, be my guest.

Meanwhile, this was also posted on my board. I deleted it. I'll scare people when there's a good, valid, confirmed reason to scare them. This isn't it. There has been more than enough of that over the past few years.

The easiest way to avoid O-A visa problems is not to get an O-A visa. Come to Thailand. Get your retirement visa here. Now you'll have the O visa. Seems like a no-brainer to me.….

[Dodger]

This is there original site the video references the new updatesd site.

OK...here's the so-called "updated site": https://thaiconsulatela.org/en/non.o/

You'll notice that the Updated Site (LA Only) being discussed in the video also says the following:

"TYPE "O" VISA HOLDERS ARE PERMITTED TO STAY IN THAILAND FOR 90 DAYS"
"TYPE "O-A" VISA HOLDERS ARE PERMITTED TO STAY IN THAILAND FOR 1 YEAR"

Choke on that one...if you're into get fear-mongered.

[Manforallseasons]

Dodger, I am not concerned, when the time comes if I choose I still have more than 1.2 million on deposit but originally when the embassy’s stopped validating income and these discussions began even on Gaybutton many acknowledged these initial income requirements were likely to change over time so I am not surprised. I am fortunate that I sold my condo at a peak time and rent a nice condo now however, if the government continues to change requirements I am under no obligation to stay. I don’t wear rose colored glasses so I am not easily fear-mongered. What will be will be.

[Gaybutton]

I am not easily fear-mongered.
I know you're not, but many others start needlessly panicking at these kinds of things. I believe this guy spotted something online and jumped on it as a means of advertising himself.

Of course anything can happen. I recommend doing the worrying when something actually does happen.

The Los Angeles web site does say - for the O-A visa ( https://thaiconsulatela.org/en/non-o/ ):

Applicant must have a bank deposit of
7.1 no less than 1,200,000 Baht or
7.2 an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income (pension) of not less than 100,000 Baht, or
7.3 a deposit account plus a monthly income (pension) totaling not less than 1,200,000 Baht.

Even if that is correct, let me know if any other Thai consulate or embassy anywhere in the world or whether immigration in Thailand is saying the same thing.

With all the problems involving the O-A visa, I don't know why these days anyone would want one in the first place, no matter what the income requirements are.

[Dodger]

Dodger, I am not concerned, when the time comes if I choose I still have more than 1.2 million on deposit but originally when the embassy’s stopped validating income and these discussions began even on Gaybutton many acknowledged these initial income requirements were likely to change over time so I am not surprised. I am fortunate that I sold my condo at a peak time and rent a nice condo now however, if the government continues to change requirements I am under no obligation to stay. I don’t wear rose colored glasses so I am not easily fear-mongereThe dick head in the video already knows that.
d. What will be will be.

Don't let that clown in the video bother you.

He's actually got better over the years. He used to forget what he was talking about right in the middle of a sentence, and just stand there gazing into space like he just crapped in his pants. Just too funny!

One of his Thai lawyers probably got linked into the LA consulates new (draft) website...read this updated version before the ink's even dry... and ran into the clowns office all excited - like a rookie detective cracking his first case. Then Clown gets his video recorder out and starts babbling like a 9 year old trying to sound like he actually knows what's going on. He was actually a running joke with the gang at Corner Bar.

[Dodger]

.

With all the problems involving the O-A visa, I don't know why these days anyone would want one in the first place, no matter what the income requirements are.

You may want to apply some caution when making these types of public statements about the O-A Visa.

I'm not disagreeing with you, and I don't want to debate this with you, but there are more-then-likely going to be some Retirement Visa changes coming our way - and nobody knows exactly what those changes are. (see post #11 comments)

[goji]

1 I wouldn't worry too much about speculation based on unreliable sources. Even if some people love that.

2 On the other hand, there are a wide range of things that could happen over (say) a 1 to 30 year time horizon.
(i) Any expat living anywhere on the planet could be forced to leave. Over the last 50 years, we read of everything from recent massive increases in income requirement for expats in Malaysia, to countries expelling foreigners. The latter is perhaps lower probability.
(ii) Exchange rates can move all over the damn place. Not just a couple of % here and there, but by 100% or more.
(iii) Geopolitical events.

Ideally one would have more passports than Jason Bourne and many millions of $ distributed over about 5 continents. However, most have more modest resources and need a less ambitious plan B.

[Nirish guy]

Aside from the accuracy of the advice or otherwise my personal view in life is never to trust anyone who feels the needs to have multiple certificates and awards dotted all over their office as from experience they're usually so up their own ass I wouldn't want to deal with them OR they must be exceptionally good at what they do and so will probably charge twice what the guy down the street charges who can probably do the same job quite adequately for my needs anyway most times !

[cdnmatt]

Aside from the accuracy of the advice or otherwise my personal view in life is never to trust anyone who feels the needs to have multiple certificates and awards dotted all over their office as from experience they're usually so up their own ass I wouldn't want to deal with them OR they must be exceptionally good at what they do and so will probably charge twice what the guy down the street charges who can probably do the same job quite adequately for my needs anyway most times !

This. Whenever I'm about to enter a new business relationship, if the other party starts bragging about their MBA the relationship usually ends before it begins.
the relationship.

[Dodger]

2 On the other hand, there are a wide range of things that could happen over (say) a 1 to 30 year time horizon.

Yes, we could all be dead for starters...LOL.

[Gaybutton]

there are more-then-likely going to be some Retirement Visa changes coming our way - and nobody knows exactly what those changes are.
I agree. And when no new laws go into effect, immigration can be very good about just making up their own rules. Nothing new about that. My point is I think it is pointless to worry about what might change until something does change.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that so far Thailand has made their rules much more difficult for O-A visa holders than they have for O visa holders.

[Gaybutton]

I don't want to debate this with you

Ok, I won't debate this with you, but . . .

[dinagam]

I don't get it...

[Armando]

Will such change come about -- IMO it is possible. The current requirement for 800,000 baht has been in place for more than 20 years. Needless to say, costs in Thailand have increased over those years. But, if it does come about, it most likely will only impact those obtaining visas or doing first extensions after rules are officially changed (which, as yet have not happened).
I thought I had read somewhere a few months ago that the government had set up yet another committee to review the entire issue of retirement visas. As @2lz2p points out, the present system and income amounts have basically been in place for decades. Various Immigration chiefs have tinkered with it but I do think a complete revision should take place to make retirement more simple and with just oe or two options.

Every time this topic comes up, I get the feeling there are those in government who want to encourage retirees to change over to the Thai Elite scheme. Presently this provides several options, the most popular probably being a 5 year stay for 600,000 Baht with the option to extend by a further 15 years for an additional 400,000 Baht. The scheme offers additional benefits but few are likely to be of much interest to most retirees. The problem of course is that these are non returnable fees. On the other hand, the 800,000/400,000 baht in an account route for virtually for each year cannot be touched unless you leave the country or die - as far as i understand it.

I know several retirees without pensions or social security who have joined the Elite scheme and are very happy with it. But then they know they plan to remain in the Kingdom for the rest of their lives - or are rich!

[Dodger]

.

I know several retirees without pensions or social security who have joined the Elite scheme and are very happy with it. But then they know they plan to remain in the Kingdom for the rest of their lives - or are rich!

Every time this topic comes up I find myself either laughing, choking, groaning, gagging, or just getting dizzy and falling into a catatonic trance.. Not sure why this happens. Just a natural reflex I guess.

If my monthly retirement income wasn't enough to qualify for a retirement visa in Thailand, I wouldn't have retired here. Having 800,000 THB frozen in a Thai bank account is something I would never even consider. The Elite Plan is a sham. It would be a cold day in hell before I walked into Immigration and handed anyone 600,000 THB for anything.

This is Thailand. And the way I look at it, they (Immigration) will do everything in their power to get as much money from you as they can, and will use their legal discretion (legal loop holes) to do exactly that. The only way to beat them at this game is to not play the game. And the only way to not play the game is to comply with the requirements. No huge sums of money frozen in their banks. No small fortunes slid into their pockets. And no visa agents - who serve as nothing more than the conduit for the flow of funny-money into the same pockets. You either have the income necessary to live here - or you don't.

If they were to ever raise the monthly income levels in excess of what I'm bringing in without having a "grandfather" clause,, I'd move to another country.

I fully understand that some people have plenty of money in the bank, but don't have a monthly retirement income that meets the minimum requirements. For them, I guess the 800,000 THB method is something to consider, BUT, only if they're financially secure enough to be able to freeze this amount of money in their bank without incurring any financial hardships. The problems come into play (happens often) when people are not financially secure enough to do this on a continual basis and start having financial problems. To be honest, if I was in their shoes, I would not have selected Thailand as my place for retirement.

[goji]

Firstly, Thailand is perfectly entitled to target only wealthy retirees.

However, to join the Elite scheme, you either need to be truly Elite and have so much money that the sum is insignificant OR for those with normal finances, it's necessary to trust the Thai government will honour the Elite scheme for the duration, without downgrading it or adding other costs.

The Elite scheme is supposed to buy residency rights for a period.
However, if I'm not mistaken there was a period in 2020 when Thai citizens were allowed to return to Thailand and Elite members were not. So that's a fail already.
Then with all the chopping and changing elsewhere, who says whey will not add other requirements for Elite visa holders ?

[Dodger]

Firstly, Thailand is perfectly entitled to target only wealthy retirees.

You're right, They can target anything they want, but actually hitting the target is a horse of a different color..

Why would a truly wealthy person want to retire in Thailand in these current conditions? I'm sure they would enjoy anchoring their private yachts along Bali Hai Pier to gaze across the polluted beach at the homeless people sleeping in front of Pattaya's five star Taco Bell...LOL

Frankly, Thailand's going to hand its hands full just trying to keep people from leaving if they don't get their acts together.

[Manforallseasons]

Frankly, Thailand's going to have its hands full just trying to keep people from leaving if they don't get their acts together.

As well as keeping people from coming!

[StevieWonders]

Once again Amazing Dodgems proves how utterly out of touch he is -

https://sydney.thaiembassy.org/en/publicservice/non-immigrant-visa-type-o-a

[Dodger]

AseanNow just posted that 2 Thai Consulates in Australia (Melbourne and Sydney) have also revised the financial requirements for O-A Visas - increasing the financial amount similar to what the U.S/LA Consulate did.

Interesting that the only Long Stay/Retirement Visa (1 year) offered now in Australia appears to be the Non-immigrant O-A. The O type visa is shown as pertaining to Thai nationals and their spouses and is only valid for 90 day stays - similar to what the "updated LA Consulate is showing".

Is it possible that the "O' Visa will no longer be used for retirement going forward? It's starting to look that way.

(See link below)

https://sydney.thaiembassy.org/en/publicservice/visa-categories

[Gaybutton]

Is it possible that the "O' Visa will no longer be used for retirement going forward? It's starting to look that way.

What makes you think so? All of this applies to people applying for the retirement visa outside of Thailand. It has nothing to do with applying for the retirement visa within Thailand. Those who apply within Thailand and qualify get the O retirement visa. Within Thailand, the O-A visa isn't even offered.

Again, I don't know why anyone would want the O-A visa rather than the O.

The last time I said that, you responded with, "You may want to apply some caution when making these types of public statements about the O-A Visa."
Why would I want to apply caution to that type of public statement? I can't think of any reason at all. If you can, I'd like to know what there is to be cautious about.

[Manforallseasons]

I am very thankful I have an O long stay visa, however, I suspect at sometime the O visa will be subject to the same inherent problems that come with the O-A visa.

[Gaybutton]

I suspect at sometime the O visa will be subject to the same inherent problems that come with the O-A visa.

Maybe. I'll do my worrying if it ever happens and if any changes include something difficult to comply with. In the meantime there is no indication I have been able to find that they intend to change anything about it.

[Dodger]

If you already hold an O-A, I would look into whatever is necessary to do to get it switched over to an O visa, even if it requires a Thai attorney or a visa agent to help get it done. And, as my dad used to say. "Do it now. RIGHT now!"

The way things are happening in Thailand, if you are going to retire in Thailand, you definitely want your retirement visa to be the O visa, not the O-A. And the only way to get the O visa is to get it within Thailand.

Other than that, I see no reason to be worried about any upcoming changes.

You're recommending to people holding O-A Visas to switch over to an O visa, even if it requires an attorney or agent, because, in your opinion, the O-A Visa is definitely not the way to go. If that's what you feel comfortable recommending to our readers, than by-all-means, continue on.

I'm fully aware of the fact that the "O" Visa requirements outlined on the foreign consulate sites pertain to those applying for this Visa in their home countries. The language has changed very recently which, in my opinion, could be part of a restructuring going on with the Thai Visa Program. There are other indications that this is going on as well. Not knowing what the end result will be, would tell me that it wasn't a good time for anyone to jump-the-gun and be making any changes until the dust is settled. And that's the only piece of advice I would have for our readers.

With all due respect, if anyone ran out and switched their Visa's from "O-A" to "O" and then found out that Type O was no longer used for retirement purposes, they could have a real mess on their hands... understanding that the O and O-A are inherently the same, and the O Visa was never really intended for this purpose from the beginning - and Immigration knows it. Only time will tell...but it's certainly not the time to be running out in a panic mode to make visa changes.

[Gaybutton]

You're recommending to people holding O-A Visas to switch over to an O visa

I don't know what you're talking about. If there is a way - within Thailand - to change from O-A to O and avoid all these O-A visa hassles, I don't understand why you find fault with that. What am I missing?

Meanwhile, I think the question is academic. I've had some farang friends try to do it, but to make a long story short they essentially were told once you have the O-A, you always have the O-A.

In my opinion the best thing to do is get the retirement visa within Thailand. That way you'll have the O visa and problem solved.

[bkkguy]

I am very thankful I have an O long stay visa

the Non O visa is, and always has been, a short-stay visa - the permission to stay on arrival is 90 days

the Non O-A visa is, and always has been, a long-stay visa - the permission to stay on arrival is 12 months

don't be confused by the fact that you can do a 12 month extension of a permission to stay for retirement based on a current permission to stay from either visa - though the requirements are different

both the Foreign Ministry (embassies and consulates) and the Interior Ministry (Immigration Police) seem comfortable with this distinction at present - though the speculation is that this may change at some stage, and this is certainly possible


I'm fully aware of the fact that the "O" Visa requirements outlined on the foreign consulate sites pertain to those applying for this Visa in their home countries. The language has changed very recently which, in my opinion, could be part of a restructuring going on with the Thai Visa Program. .

I don't know about new - I have been told twice in the last 20 years by the consulate in Sydney that it is not their policy to issue a NON O visa for people wishing to retire in Thailand - this in their opinion is a policy of the Immigration Police in Thailand only - instead they suggest either applying for a Non O-A visa in Sydney, or enter Thailand on a Tourist visa and apply for a NON O visa in Thailand. the Honorary Consulate in Perth seemed to disagree with this, I am not sure about the embassy in Canberra!

Obviously different consulates and embassies have had their own interpretation of this at different times, as have different Immigration Police offices in Thailand, and there may well be a policy change happening now or in the future from the Foreign Ministry or the Interior Ministry but it all seems to be a bit unknown at this time, particularly in relation to NON O visas and extensions of permission to stay

and GB, despite your constant protestations, not everyone is in the same situation as you are, and even with the current insurance requirements for entry and extension of permission to stay with a NON O-A visa there are still a number of scenarios where a Non O-A visa may be a better choice - perhaps not for you but for other people, and they need to consider their requirements and read and understand the significant differences between the two visa classes and the differences between getting extensions on permission to stay based on these visa classes, if they actually even need to do this.

[goji]

....they need to consider their requirements and read and understand the significant differences between the two visa classes and the differences between getting extensions on permission to stay based on these visa classes, if they actually even need to do this.

It would be very nice if someone would do a nice logical Excel table summarizing the difference between all the different Thai visa categories.

Ideally the authorities would do this, but it seems logical thinking is not important there.
It's probably too much to expect visa agencies to do that, as they make a living from the confusion.
If any of the expert expats fancy stepping up to the plate, it would be much appreciated.

[Manforallseasons]

GB, despite your constant protestations, not everyone is in the same situation as you are, and even with the current insurance requirements for entry and extension of permission to stay with a NON O-A visa there are still a number of scenarios where a Non O-A visa may be a better choice - perhaps not for you but for other people, and they need to consider their requirements and read and understand the significant differences between the two visa classes and the differences between getting extensions on permission to stay based on these visa classes, if they actually even need to do this.

Lucky you (:

[Gaybutton]

and GB, despite your constant protestations, not everyone is in the same situation as you are, and even with the current insurance requirements for entry and extension of permission to stay with a NON O-A visa there are still a number of scenarios where a Non O-A visa may be a better choice

Then I'll repeat my question: What am I missing? Give me an example of a scenario in which the O-A is a better choice than the O.

[Armando]

Every time this topic comes up I find myself either laughing, choking, groaning, gagging, or just getting dizzy and falling into a catatonic trance.. Not sure why this happens. Just a natural reflex I guess.

If my monthly retirement income wasn't enough to qualify for a retirement visa in Thailand, I wouldn't have retired here. Having 800,000 THB frozen in a Thai bank account is something I would never even consider. The Elite Plan is a sham. It would be a cold day in hell before I walked into Immigration and handed anyone 600,000 THB for anything.
So assuming you did not have social security at a certain level or a pension because you had worked for various companies without pensions - true of many who work in Asia - where would you have retired to? You forget that not every one is as fortunate as you. Some others have to find different ways, either through the 800,000 route or Thailand Elite. Is there another route for those who have no pension? As for those who dismiss Thailand Elite, I know several who are members and not one thinks it is anything but a great move for them in their financial circumstances. Which is the better alternative? 800K locked in a bank account for life or until you leave (I believe) or 1 million for 20 years visa?

And remember that if the government can change the Thailand Elite programme, it is in my view more likely to change the retirement visa requirements first. Thailand Elite seems to be aimed primarily at those the government actually want to live here. Does it want everyone paying 65K per month when that amount has remained static for a great many years. Surely it is bound to go up sooner rather than later. And of so, by how much? Remember too that the 800,000 route was changed only a couple of years ago to make that route more difficult for many people. For how much longer will that 65K remain at that level?

[Dodger]

the Non O visa is, and always has been, a short-stay visa - the permission to stay on arrival is 90 days

the Non O-A visa is, and always has been, a long-stay visa - the permission to stay on arrival is 12 months

don't be confused by the fact that you can do a 12 month extension of a permission to stay for retirement based on a current permission to stay from either visa - though the requirements are different

both the Foreign Ministry (embassies and consulates) and the Interior Ministry (Immigration Police) seem comfortable with this distinction at present - though the speculation is that this may change at some stage, and this is certainly possible



I don't know about new - I have been told twice in the last 20 years by the consulate in Sydney that it is not their policy to issue a NON O visa for people wishing to retire in Thailand - this in their opinion is a policy of the Immigration Police in Thailand only - instead they suggest either applying for a Non O-A visa in Sydney, or enter Thailand on a Tourist visa and apply for a NON O visa in Thailand. the Honorary Consulate in Perth seemed to disagree with this, I am not sure about the embassy in Canberra!

Obviously different consulates and embassies have had their own interpretation of this at different times, as have different Immigration Police offices in Thailand, and there may well be a policy change happening now or in the future from the Foreign Ministry or the Interior Ministry but it all seems to be a bit unknown at this time, particularly in relation to NON O visas and extensions of permission to stay

and GB, despite your constant protestations, not everyone is in the same situation as you are, and even with the current insurance requirements for entry and extension of permission to stay with a NON O-A visa there are still a number of scenarios where a Non O-A visa may be a better choice - perhaps not for you but for other people, and they need to consider their requirements and read and understand the significant differences between the two visa classes and the differences between getting extensions on permission to stay based on these visa classes, if they actually even need to do this.

Well stated, and I couldn't agree more.

[Dodger]

It would be very nice if someone would do a nice logical Excel table summarizing the difference between all the different Thai visa categories.

They rarely use tools like "Excel" in Thailand. That would make it too easy for people to see the discrepancies.

No Excel spreadsheet needed to describe the difference between the O and O-A visas being discussed. The only difference between the O and O-A that effects retired expats is that the O-A started requiring health insurance (3M THB) effective Oct 1, 2021, and the O doesn't require health insurance YET. With that exception, these two visa classifications are inherently the same.

[Gaybutton]

and GB, despite your constant protestations, not everyone is in the same situation as you are
Thank you for pointing that out. Until your post I thought everyone was in the exact same situation I'm in.

I'm waiting for you to tell me all about how there are still a number of scenarios where a Non O-A visa may be a better choice than getting the O visa within Thailand and provide some examples.



the 800,000 route was changed only a couple of years ago to make that route more difficult for many people. For how much longer will that 65K remain at that level?

And I was in favor of the change. It was one of the few times I thought what they were doing made good sense. A significant number of people supposedly were cheating one way or another, which I bitterly resented since I was doing it honestly. The changes made it more difficult for people to cheat.

However, I definitely dislike being forced to keep 800.000 baht untouchable in a Thai bank account.

As for any upcoming changes, whether to the 800,000 baht rule or the 65,000 baht per month rule, I too think it will happen, but bear in mind all we have to go on is sheer speculation. There has been absolutely nothing from the Thai end to indicate changes are coming or even contemplated. No way to prepare for any changes because there is no way to have any idea what those changes might be or who they would affect - if they happen at all.

[Dodger]

.

Again, I don't know why anyone would want the O-A visa rather than the O.

You made your point crystal clear when recommending to our readers that they run out and switch from O-A to O based on your opinion.

You shouldn't be making that sort of recommendation to anybody at this stage. When Immigration announces the changes coming our way, people will be in a position to decide what actions to take, if any.

[Gaybutton]

You shouldn't be making that sort of recommendation to anybody at this stage.
The idea that changes are coming our way is sheer speculation on your part, based on absolutely nothing. I know of no indication of any kind coming from the Thai government or immigration that any changes are even being considered.

But you have my apologies. I forgot that before I express my opinion I'm supposed to get your approval first and abide by your decision as to what I should or should not say. I'll try to remember that.

I'll express my opinion whenever I want, especially when I think I'm right, just like you or anyone else can do. Whether anyone wants to agree with or follow my opinion or advice is their own choice. But I do not intend to have my opinions and right to express them suppressed by you or anyone else. I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head to even read my opinions, let alone pay any attention to them.

[Dodger]

I'll express my opinion whenever I want, especially when I think I'm right......

Which of course is all the time.

My opinion was (and is) that you should not have recommended to people that they run out and change their visa classifications until the changes have been made. I never once insinuated that your OPINION wasn't valid, I merely cautioned you from making this type of premature RECOMMENDATION when you haven't the foggiest clue what the visa changes will involve.

Having an OPINION is fine (welcome to the club), but when you start telling people to act on that opinion, it becomes a "Recommendation" which some people, including potential newcomers with no experience with these matters, could react to. Frankly, I would think someone with your experience on these Boards would understand that.

If you still don't get it...just add it to your list

[Gaybutton]

If you still don't get it...just add it to your list
Well of course it's all the time. I don't post my opinions, recommendations, or whatever you want to call it if I think I'm wrong. Do you?

If I am later convinced I was wrong, I say so. I know you do too. Unfortunately, many don't.

I completely disagree with you on this, so consider it added . . .

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me in what way the O-A visa is ever better than getting the O visa within Thailand.

[bkkguy]

Then I'll repeat my question: What am I missing? Give me an example of a scenario in which the O-A is a better choice than the O.

I am much too polite to suggest that you may be missing the knowledge of the how the Non O-A visa works and the imagination to imagine how other people might use the visa - but I am sure you would be quick to dismiss any specific examples I give as unrealistic or irrelevant

so make some effort yourself and read up on the non O-A visa and try to imagine who might perhaps be interested in a scenario like spending two years in Thailand doing just 90 day reports and perhaps one re-entry permit application, no extension of permission to stay, no proving transfer of funds to Thailand

and remember, don't base your cost/benefit analysis just on your own ideas of value for money and convenience - unless you are just justifying your own personal choice - because even for people who want to "retire" to Thailand "forever" the difference between a Non O visa and extensions in Thailand, multiple Non O-A visas from your home country and even an Elite visa are based on other people's personal choices and shouldn't be dismissed just because you think you know better about what is best for them

[Gaybutton]

I am sure you would be quick to dismiss any specific examples I give as unrealistic or irrelevant

Most likely, just as I dismiss evasive responses like this one.

If you can't provide an example, not even one, just say so.

[Brad the Impala]

Well of course it's all the time. I don't post my opinions, recommendations, or whatever you want to call it if I think I'm wrong. Do you?



A little knowledge and a lot of arrogance is a dangerous combination. Fortunately on this forum misleading opinions can be challenged.

[bkkguy]

Most likely, just as I dismiss evasive responses like this one.

no, once you have decided you know the "right" answer you just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you

[Gaybutton]

no, once you have decided you know the "right" answer you just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you

Nonsense. I have been wrong many times and will probably be wrong many more times. When I realize I've been wrong I post and admit it - something I've never seen you do. Of course you're never wrong, are you?

And here you are, still evading giving even one example, but you'll keep coming up with these kinds of posts to try to get out of it rather than just admit you can't come up with anything at all to back your stance. If you can provide an example, let's have it.

[Armando]

There was a member of at least one of the Boards who came to the realisation after living here for at least 12 years that he could not meet the new regulations which came in for the 800K route. He decided instead he would go the O-A route. So he returned to the USA, got the O-A visa and came back knowing he had basically two years in Thailand (provided he took one short trip outside the country at the end of Year 1). He returned to the USA before the end of Year 2, got another O-A and was again totally pleased that he had taken that route. As @bkkguy points out, no cash in the bank requirements. It fitted his requirements almost perfectly.

[Gaybutton]

It fitted his requirements almost perfectly.

Thank you. Finally an example. I'm glad it works well for him.

[StevieWonders]

Nothing entertains me more than watching a couple of cantankerous old queens slogging it out

[mr giggles]

Firstly, Thailand is perfectly entitled to target only wealthy retirees.

However, to join the Elite scheme, you either need to be truly Elite ?

If you were truly ELITE, why would you retire to Thailand?

[Manforallseasons]

As @bkkguy points out, no cash in the bank requirements. It fitted his requirements almost perfectly.

So I gather he must use the 65,000 baht monthly transfer into his Thai bank account.

[StevieWonders]

So I gather he must use the 65,000 baht monthly transfer into his Thai bank account.
Not at all. The original version of the O-A only required money outside Thailand which was easy enough to "prove". It was a 12-month multiple-entry visa so people could leave at month 11.5 and re-enter, receiving a further 12 months. It's a loophole that may still exist I believe but now new applications have to show the mandatory health insurance which complicates matters.

[Dodger]

What we know:

All retirement visas are inherently the same as they are all issued pursuant to Section 34 (15) of the Thai Immigration Act. The only significant difference between the O and O-A visas is their place of application, and the fact that the O-A visa holders were required to have 3M THB in health insurance, effective Oct 1, 2021.

- Visa changes are in the process of being made (confirmed)
- Programs established for attracting wealthy retiree's (confirmed)
- Financial income requirements for Long Stays to be increased (highly probable)
- Insurance policies for expats > 70 y/o fully developed and available for purchase (confirmed)
- Health insurance mandate standardized across all Long Stay visa classifications (possible)
- Visa classification restructuring, i.e., streamlined, simplified, updated, gaps closed (probable)
- Grandfather clause for income requirements similar to 1998/2003 revisions (possible)
- Continuous extension provisions established to quality for Grandfathering (possible)

What we can assume from what we know:

- Changes will be introduced sometime in 2022 (probable)
- All retirees with Long Stay visas will be required to have health insurance (3M THB) (possible)
- Retirees who have >2 yrs continuous extensions, with no interruptions, classification changes, cancellations, or lapses, may be grandfathered from income increase (possible). Ranked "possible" because this is how immigration handled grandfathering to the 2003 revisions.

Note: The financial income requirement for retirees was last changed to 800k baht and 65k baht income in 2003. Marriage was changed from 250k baht and 25k baht income to the 400k baht and 40 baht amounts in the same year. Those who were on continuous extensions of stay based upon retirement in 1998 were grandfathered and the 2003 increase did not apply to them.

Why would it be important to not change your visa classification at this time? Because doing so could potentially be considered a break in your “continuous extensions” as interpreted by Immigration, resulting in your disqualification from being “grandfathered”. This of course is only speculation at this time, but in the event this were to happen, you could potentially be forced to comply with the revised (2022) financial income requirement.

General Visa Stuff:

Thailand has 11 different major visa types as follows:

- Special tourist visa (STV)…not to confused with STD
- Tourist visa (TR)
- Non-immigrant Visa-B (Business)…and MFAS
- Non-immigrant Visa-B (Working)
- Non-immigrant Visa-ED
- Non-immigrant Visa-O-A (Long Stay)
- Non-immigrant Visa O-X (Long Stay)
- Non-immigrant Visa-O (Thai Spouse)
- SMART Visa
- Tourist MT Visa (Medical Treatment)
- Elite Visa

For comparison purposes, the U.S has 31 major visa types, China has 16, Cambodia 6, and Australia with over a hundred. Cambodia is the only country (of the ones mentioned) that actually has a Retirement Visa (ER) for foreign nationals over the age of 55 who are retired and can support themselves financially without working. This 12 month visa can be extended annually.

On a personal note: Cambodia is my Plan B. If Thailand doesn’t get its act together in 2022 - Cambodia may have a new retiree from Chicago and his partner from Thailand moving in. It's not the visa changes that I'm concerned with. I'm concerned with the way expat retirees are treated in general. If Thailand starts treating their internal investors (retirees) with the same level of care and priority as their external investors I'm sure I'd be happy. But that may require miracle.

[cdnmatt]

Not at all. The original version of the O-A only required money outside Thailand which was easy enough to "prove". It was a 12-month multiple-entry visa so people could leave at month 11.5 and re-enter, receiving a further 12 months. It's a loophole that may still exist I believe but now new applications have to show the mandatory health insurance which complicates matters.


Holy shit, there you are. I thought you were dead, and Covid got the better of you. Welcome back.

[Gaybutton]

What we know

Guess what - I completely agree with your post. And they say miracles don't happen . . .

Regarding grandfathering - since many of us are old enough to be grandfathers, they ought to give us the benefit.

[goji]

Thailand has 11 different major visa types as follows:

- Special tourist visa (STV)…not to confused with STD
- Tourist visa (TR)
- Non-immigrant Visa-B (Business)…and MFAS
- Non-immigrant Visa-B (Working)
- Non-immigrant Visa-ED
- Non-immigrant Visa-O-A (Long Stay)
- Non-immigrant Visa O-X (Long Stay)
- Non-immigrant Visa-O (Thai Spouse)
- SMART Visa
- Tourist MT Visa (Medical Treatment)
- Elite Visa


Following the example of another member, for my next trip I have a Non-Immigrant O, with no requirement for Thai spouse. Thankfully. 90 days.

Last year I did not spot that option, so got a tourist visa (60 days) and had to waste a little time going to Jomtien immigration to get an extra 30 days.

[Armando]

So I gather he must use the 65,000 baht monthly transfer into his Thai bank account.
As @StevieWonders pointed out, no income requirement in Thailand. Only new item is the proof of medical insurance when you apply.

[cdnmatt]

You guys worry way too much about this whole VISA and immigration thing. I lived in Thailand for 8 years without paying a single fee or visit to the immigration department.

[Armando]

You guys worry way too much about this whole VISA and immigration thing. I lived in Thailand for 8 years without paying a single fee or visit to the immigration department.
No doubt that's one reason you were deported and have been stuck in Canada for years unable to return! Not the best idea for those considering a move to Thailand.

[cdnmatt]

No doubt that's one reason you were deported and have been stuck in Canada for years unable to return! Not the best idea for those considering a move to Thailand.


That was my own fault for trusting Leo that it's a good idea to move to Vientiane.

Nowadays, I can't get back due to Covid ravaging Laos. They've been at over 1000 cases everyday for a while now, and are back into strict lockdown by district. I'll be crying tears of joy once I finally get there and am able to give my guy a hug and tell him everything will be alright.

[Dodger]

......I'll be crying tears of joy once I finally get there and am able to give my guy a hug and tell him everything will be alright.

I have a feeling he'll be crying too.

[cdnmatt]

I have a feeling he'll be crying too.

How about you put me back on ignore, and kindly [Deleted text]? That would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

I'm 40 now, I'm old, tired, and simply do not have the time or patience for folks like you. If you can't manage to muster up the common decency required to treat your fellow human with a bit of respect, then you can kindly [Deleted text] out of my life.

Thanks in advance for your participation in this matter.

Some text in this post was deleted under rule 4.7.

Jellybean
Moderator

[francois]

You guys worry way too much about this whole VISA and immigration thing. I lived in Thailand for 8 years without paying a single fee or visit to the immigration department.

Not sure you should be bragging about that, matt!

[cdnmatt]

Not sure you should be bragging about that, matt!

I can't tell you how little I give a shit. If you haven't noticed, the world is fucked.

I'll give you a very small example. Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada went and created a new national holiday called the day of reconciliation or something for the indengenious.

Want to know how he spent the holiday that he created? He partied with his billionaire friends in Tofino (northeren part of Vancouver Island) who ended up in the Pandora Papers, because of course that's who Trudeau's friends are. And you actually expect me to give a shit about things like tax and immigration law?

The people who write the laws don't follow them, so why would I?

[Gaybutton]

The people who write the laws don't follow them, so why would I?

Because nothing, or nothing serious, ever seems to happen to those people, but people like us are the ones who get penalized and end up suffering the consequences.

[cdnmatt]

Because nothing, or nothing serious, ever seems to happen to those people, but people like us are the ones who get penalized and end up suffering the consequences.

That kind of all depends on how much of a donation you can provide to the authorities, now doesn't it?

[gerefan2]

You guys worry way too much about this whole VISA and immigration thing. I lived in Thailand for 8 years without paying a single fee or visit to the immigration department.




Want to know how he spent the holiday that he created? He partied with his billionaire friends in Tofino (northeren part of Vancouver Island) who ended up in the Pandora Papers, because of course that's who Trudeau's friends are. And you actually expect me to give a shit about things like tax and immigration law?

The people who write the laws don't follow them, so why would I?

So what is the connection??

Sorry shouldn’t be feeding the troll...

[Armando]

I'm old, tired, and simply do not have the time or patience for folks like you
The truth will out.

So why bother with all the posting, I wonder?

[Manforallseasons]

Update: https://youtu.be/8R1BVJoJeGU

[christianpfc]

You guys worry way too much about this whole VISA and immigration thing. I lived in Thailand for 8 years without paying a single fee or visit to the immigration department.

Now that's an euphemism for "overstay"!

[Blueskytoday]

You guys worry way too much about this whole VISA and immigration thing. I lived in Thailand for 8 years without paying a single fee or visit to the immigration department.

Well you were thrown out of the country and barred from re-entering...you should have worried or you would not be in the fix you are in..