Being gay in rural Thailand

[Oliver2]

I posted this elsewhere as a response to a discussion about Thais' views of homosexuality.

I knew that my boyfriend was very close to his parents and he claimed that they were fully aware of his sexuality but that the subject was never discussed.

We'd been together for four years or more before I received the invitation to visit in Kamphaeng Phaet. I had felt rather hurt by his reluctance, particularly in view of the falangs I knew who'd been "taken home" at an early stage in their relationships. I wondered whether the poverty in which they lived was an issue, and without explaining why, I talked to him about my experiences in West Africa, where the poverty in some rural villages and compounds I'd visited (and ate in, from communal bowls) was way beyond that of rural Thailand.

But no. I had to tease out the reasons why my invitation was relatively late in arriving; nothing to do with poverty, parents or family; everything to do with the close-knit village in which his family lived and its collective view of homosexuality. A gay man, he told me, was considered to be effeminate. P is straight-looking and acting. He didn't want to be considered a ladyboy, or anything like it.

About a year earlier, I'd paid for a house to be built next to his parents to provide a better environment for him....it even had an indoor toilet and bathroom! However, he was there for only six years when the opportunity arose for him to move about ten kms away, to a secluded (relatively speaking) but older house with its own plot of land.

I have to admit to being upset. That house near his parents had cost me dear; I'd been involved in every stage of its planning and construction. I must confess to a feeling of pride for what I'd done for him. And of hurt by his decision.

But again, the desire for privacy and separation from the village trumped everything else, including being willing to swap the smart concrete house I'd paid for an old and traditional one.

I stress that P , who's now thirty-eight, is straight-looking and acting. And exclusively and assertively gay. But the hold the community still had on him was immense.

He visits his parents everyday; but his sexuality ensures that he will no longer live there. I friend explained to me that, In an odd way, bearing the mind the part financially I played in his two houses, including the fitting-up and refurbishment of his new one, I am something of a victim too!

[StevieWonders]

The notion of Thailand being a “gay paradise” because a middle-aged white guy can walk down the street holding hands with a young male prostitute is based solely on his perception that it doesn’t invite open hostility from passers by. The famous “Thai smile” is but one symptom of a general desire to avoid conflict in personal relations at the basic level. There’s no need to take my word for that - any book on popular Thai culture and society will tell you the same thing. The “gay paradise” notion has been discussed several times here over the years, with posters citing articles by Thais in English rubbishing the concept.

[Dodger]

Thank you Oliver for a very enjoyable read.

I've had to remind myself many times over the years that being in a gay relationship with a partner who's half my age is going to have its challenges, regardless of what continent I'm on, with Thailand being no exception.

I was born and raised Buddhist (a rare exception for an Italian American surrounded by Catholics), and couldn't wait to see what it was like in a totally Buddhist environment when I first came to Thailand. I was left a bit disappointed. I'm not going to do what I normally do and ramble on - but I do want to say that there's certainly an abundance of symbolism, superstition, and shallowness, which is masked as Buddhism in Thai society, but evidence of the basic tenants of Buddhism which rely heavily on a persons ability to be accepting of other's and humble about their own offerings, seems to be just as compromised as in Western cultures. That would include acceptance of "gays". Enough said.

My experience has shown me, that contrary to popular belief, no two Thai boys are the same, no two families are the same, and no two villages are the same, when it comes to how they relate to a farang...or, how they relate to gays. I really don't think that the "gay" part has that much to do with it. It has more to do with the farang's age, and the fact that he's rich and they're poor. That's where the tire hits the road IMHO.

I was married once...built a house for him and the family (in his families village)...he died of TB in 2012...and the house has continued to do exactly what it was intended to do - and that's shelter the family. I made a point of never saying the house was for us - I always said the house was for them...because, in my heart it was. They had nothing. I had everything.

In 22 years in Thailand, I've had numerous boyfriends and have been married twice. Each and every boy I've been with has been openly gay (including when they're back in their home villages) - so I've never experienced what you're going through with P.

As a side note: Not all boys come from model families. It has nothing to do with being poor. It's the part where daddies a drunk, mommy runs a gambling den, grandpa's the village thief, and sis is addicted to yaba. Some of the nicest boys that I've met come from the worst families - and vice versa.

[Oliver2]

I've never underestimated the importance of P's religion. He spent much of 2009 in and out of hospital and has always claimed that the DMC channel and its advocacy and instruction in the processes of meditation was a vital aspect of his recovery . He'd travel every month to events at the temple in Bangkok until Covid; a ten hour round journey. Interestingly, its teachings are in no way gay-friendly, he says. Never one to avoid contradictions, he accepts this; and ignores it.

A significant moment in our first meeting (which I've posted about before) was when he told me he'd only just returned to Pattaya after his month as a monk in a temple where the Abbot was a distant family member. He face lit up when I spoke approvingly of this. I've only just remembered that. It may well have been significant in what followed.

Something else I've just remembered is that my first visit to his village was an important moment for him. In effect, I "outed " him. Whisperings, he had said, had abounded as to where his money had came from, enough to build a modern house in a village of wooden structures. I was a very visible answer.

[Dodger]

Something else I've just remembered is that my first visit to his village was an important moment for him. In effect, I "outed " him. Whisperings, he had said, had abounded as to where his money had came from, enough to build a modern house in a village of wooden structures. I was a very visible answer.

I don't believe you "outed" him at all.

You were generous enough to do something wonderful for him and his family with the best of intentions, and no one can take that away from you (good karma). Everyone in the village knew full well where the money came from, and their "whisperings, if in fact they were negative in nature, are simply the result of their jealousy for not receiving what P's family did (bad karma).

If P would not have mentioned the "whispers" to you, that would have been "jai yen".

[Oliver2]

A long tome ago, Dodger, you wrote about a visit to a rural village with (as I remember it) a ladyboy. I think you mentioned how accepted he was in his community and I took from this that clearly-defined sexualities are all accepted, even the the Third One.
I suspect that maybe it was P's apparent "straightness" that disconcerted the villagers.

[francois]

I never wanted to visit the bf's village and would, most likely, not accept an invitation even if asked.

[cdnmatt]

I don't know, but I've never had an issue in the villages. Kim's parents were seperated, so for the years we were living together, we'd rotate the two villages and usually go to one of them every two weeks. His mom's village was actually fairly decent, and not once did I sense any ill will due to the sexuality component. It was always nothing but warmth and friendliness, plus of course the occasional to be expected "omg, a white guy" stare.

Even during times such as Songkran, his little sister's wedding, his step father's funeral, et al.... when there were loads of people around, not once did I sense any uneasiness at all. Nobody seemed to care in the slightest, and were just doing their thing, enjoying their lives and we're more than friendly towards me. Not once did Kim ever show any indication whatsoerver there was anything amiss, as I'm confident there wasn't.

His dad's village on the other hand was quite the dive, and more poverty stricken. Still not a single negative feeling regarding the sexuality aspect, as it simply didn't seem to matter. Did have one grandma in that village who wouldn't stop pinching me though -- just checking if that white skin is actually real or rubs off, I guess.

Did get some grief in his dad's village though, but had nothing to do with homophobia, and instead due to being white. I don't understand pasa-Laos very well, but these guys were the Western equivalent of backwards redneck hicks. Basic gist was I'm just a lazy, rich foriegners who's weak and doesn't know what hard work is, whereas they're the real men who work hard every day, and blah, blah.... They didn't seem to care in the slightest Kim and myself were gay, but looked down on me for being white and working being a computer using my mind instead of muscles to earn money.

heh, that reminds me. I'll never forget Kim's dad the one day, so very proudly showing off his tatoo that spanned his entire chest. Took off his shirt and pointed, where it spelt in huge letters, "KA-MAN-DO". He was all proud, saying it's because he used to be a commando in the Thai military. Didn't have the heart to tell him he totally botched the spelling, and just smiled and told him it looked awesome.

[Nirish guy]

Basic gist was I'm just a lazy, rich foriegners who's weak and doesn't know what hard work is, whereas they're the real men who work hard every day, and blah, blah.....


They may of course just have been making a valid point......

[cdnmatt]

They may of course just have been making a valid point......

You mean the 80 hour weeks of mind numbing stress isn't hard?

I may not be able to do their job nowadays (when I was younger, no problem), but I can guarantee they couldn't do my job.

[Oliver2]

Laos was attacked savagely by the US during the Vietnam war....I bought jewellery made from shrapnel in Luang Prabang that is still being found today. Cdm's experience may be, at least partly, the result of the horrors that Uncle Charlie- wealthy white folks- imposed on an innocent population.

[StevieWonders]

Laos was attacked savagely by the US during the Vietnam war....I bought jewellery made from shrapnel in Luang Prabang that is still being found today. Cdm's experience may be, at least partly, the result of the horrors that Uncle Charlie- wealthy white folks- imposed on an innocent population.And this is different from wealthy white folks travelling thousands of kilometres in search of young brown flesh to exploit?

[cdnmatt]

And this is different from wealthy white folks travelling thousands of kilometres in search of young brown flesh to exploit?

Yeah, but we're just fucking them, not killing them. There's a difference.

[Dodger]

I never wanted to visit the bf's village and would, most likely, not accept an invitation even if asked.

This is probably the best advice for any farang.

Unless you're in a long-term relationship (LTR) (spanning years, not weeks), there's really no need to make this visit, unless you enjoy eating with your hands while sitting on a hard floor, sleeping on beds that are even harder, bathing with buckets of cold rain water, and sitting around like an inanimate hood ornament totally alienated from your surroundings. More than likely they're poor. When you're there, you will be living like a poor person too, regardless of how much money you have in your wallet. There's nothing fun about this.

It's a totally different matter for those in LTR's. I've always believed that it's impossible to really bond with a Thai partner unless you've met the family and at least attempted to bond with them as well. Setting boundaries and clear expectations for your role within the family is a critical step in the process. Unfortunately, most fail at this. They will love you and respect you over time, but your role as "financial sponsor" can never be erased. Their lists of needs are endless, and without firm boundaries regarding finances, the relationship will most likely fail - and your bank account will be drained. If the boy you're in a relationship with can't accept the word "no", then it's time to find another boy.

[cdnmatt]

Villages are good for parties though. :)

No screwing around when they throw a party in the village for whatever celebration... Songkran, wedding, funeral, whatever. Hundreds of people, lines of tables all setup, never ending flow of food and booze for days on end, those huge speakers that take up the entire box of a pickup truck, maybe some of the younger folks get dressed up in traditional moralm dress and do some dances for the crowd, et al. And they last for days, not just a single night.

I've had lots of good times in the villages. Even the boring trips were quite good, as we'd always stop at the market before getting there, so had lots of food. Hang out with the family, cook up and eat a nice meal like jao-aawn or something, have a few beers, laugh and giggle, maybe play some hi-lo with the neighbors, et al.

Granted, I never slept the night in the village, because fuck that. I want my mattress with an air conditioner, thank you very much. Both villages were only about 30 mins outside of Khon Kaen though, so day trips were easy, and were always a worthwhile trip.

[Armando]

Laos was attacked savagely by the US during the Vietnam war....I bought jewellery made from shrapnel in Luang Prabang that is still being found today. Cdm's experience may be, at least partly, the result of the horrors that Uncle Charlie- wealthy white folks- imposed on an innocent population.
I would suggest that "savagely" does not go far enough. In its undeclared war with that independent country, the US dropped more bombs over Laos than it dropped in the entirety of World War II. Laos is the most bombed country in history. The US on average dropped a planeload of bombs every eight minutes, 24 hours a day for nine whole years. The CIA even set up its own airstrip in the Lao jungle which saw more flight movements than in all airports in the rest of the world at the time.

What the USA did to Laos was the gravest of war crimes. That it contributes only a fraction of what it costs each year to clear the unexploded ordinance that remains just adds to the disgrace.

And yes, StevieWonders, that bears absolutely zero comparison to westerners exploiting young Asians. That you should make such a comparison is disgusting!

[StevieWonders]

I once stayed for a few days in a village in Isaan - all-night Morlam extravaganza, lots of gay boys bopping along, then a lengthy ordination for four village guys (my companion was one of them) in the morning. Unforgettable.

The attitude towards gays was “Don’t ask, don’t tell”; the cousin of my companion was a slightly effeminate 40-something who lived in the village. I enquired about his sex life there and was told “Lots of boys like to try”.

[StevieWonders]

And yes, StevieWonders, that bears absolutely zero comparison to westerners exploiting young Asians. That you should make such a comparison is disgusting!They are both forms of white imperialism, as a well-known “leftie” like Oliver should understand. Any difference is in degree, not kind.

[Dodger]

I'm not quite sure what "being gay in rural Thailand" has to do with the "U.S. bombing of Laos", but it sure would be nice if we could get back on topic.

[cdnmatt]

I'm not quite sure what "being gay in rural Thailand" has to do with the "U.S. bombing of Laos", but it sure would be nice if we could get back on topic.

It would also sure be nice not to have you constantly running around the board complaining about who should and shouldn't be allowed to post, and what subject material people should and shouldn't post about and in which topics.

Geez, take up smoking weed or something already...

How can someone live permanently in Thailand, and still be this uptight? Now there's an oxymoron for you. The locals in your community must love you.

[Armando]

They are both forms of white imperialism, as a well-known “leftie” like Oliver should understand. Any difference is in degree, not kind.
The difference between white (and a whole pack of other) foreigners having sex with a few thousand prostitutes and the massacre of 10% of an entire population has absolutely nothing to do with "degree". One may be a moral offence; the other is outright mass slaughter. That you still fail to make the distinction remains disgusting!

[cdnmatt]

BTW Armando... the CIA didn't setup one private airstrip in Laos. They setup about 150 of them.

Reminds me before Leo first came and seen me for the first time. His mom had him all worried not to trust those farangs, because I'd just either sell him or kill him. heh.

later on I ended up saving his mom's life, so hopefully that changed her perception of farangs. Still had sex with her son all the time though.

[StevieWonders]

The difference between white (and a whole pack of other) foreigners having sex with a few thousand prostitutes and the massacre of 10% of an entire population has absolutely nothing to do with "degree". One may be a moral offence; the other is outright mass slaughter. That you still fail to make the distinction remains disgusting!Always happy to oblige.

[Dodger]

The locals in your community must love you.

Well, I haven't been kicked out of my community yet, so I guess I'm doing something right.

How many years did you say you were blacklisted for? ...LOL

[cdnmatt]

Well, I haven't been kicked out of my community yet, so I guess I'm doing something right.

How many years did you say you were blacklisted for? ...LOL


Little different there, dude. Federal immigrations vs. locals in the community.

I promise you, they had no problem with me being around, and if anything, quite enjoyed my presence.

[Dodger]

I promise you, they had no problem with me being around, and if anything, quite enjoyed my presence.

It's nice of you to imagine that.

I'm sure they're still laughing their asses off.

[Nirish guy]

Little different there, dude. Federal immigrations vs. locals in the community.

I think perhaps you may have slightly confused the word "presence" with "presents" there maybe as lets face it I doubt that any average Thai gives a flying fuck as to whether we as farang are around or not ( well until it comes to the time to pay the bill that is of course and then we're much loved - until it's paid and then it's a return to business as usual !)

[cdnmatt]

I think perhaps you may have slightly confused the word "presence" with "presents" there maybe as lets face it I doubt that any average Thai gives a flying fuck as to whether we as farang are around or not ( well until it comes to the time to pay the bill that is of course and then we're much loved - until it's paid and then it's a return to business as usual !)

Spoken from someone who's never left the tourist zones.

You do know that Thailand has a population of 67 million people,right? It may surprise you, but most of them don't worry about what some farang sex tourists are doing, nor do they plan on how to take advantage of said tourists.

[StevieWonders]

It’s going to be That Sort Of Weekend.

[Nirish guy]

Spoken from someone who's never left the tourist zones.

You know that thing they say about assuming and what it makes you ..........I've actually visited Issan on several occasions over several years when visiting and staying with several "Bf's" and their families there over the years......and definitely enough times at least to know that I'm certainly not missing anything not living there that's for SURE !

[StevieWonders]

Yep, Querulous Old Queens Weekend.

[Brad the Impala]

A lot of extrapolations going on in this thread. It seems some people have accepted the wrong invitations. As in life you have to chose who you go home with!

My own first visit to my boyfriends home, when he became a monk, was wonderful, and I've had numerous follow up visits that have been enjoyable. Of course like some others I have had the sense, for me, to stay in nearby hotels. I am reluctant to stay in other peoples homes wherever I am.

[StevieWonders]

A lot of extrapolations going on in this thread. It seems some people have accepted the wrong invitations. As in life you have to chose who you go home with!One of the lessons few people learn is that it’s perceptions that lead to arguments, rarely facts. Facts are less often in dispute. The fact that as Westerners “our hand is often in our pocket” to meet the demands of a boy or his family is not in dispute. The perception that we’re just a walking ATM as far as the Thais are concerned is only one perception of that fact. There are other perceptions of the same fact. The saying “history is written by the winners” equally demonstrates that while the historical facts may not be in dispute it’s how they are perceived that matters more.

[mr giggles]

Yep, Querulous Old Queens Weekend.

Quarreling quibbling Queens.

[arsenal]

Cue steviewonders
Cue mrgiggles
Cue sglad.

[StevieWonders]

Cue steviewonders
Cue mrgiggles
Cue sglad.
You are fond of the sound of your own name, aren’t you Q (rhetorical question).

[cdnmatt]

I think people are forgetting the biggest perks of rurual village life in Thailand. No off fees!

heh, I'm just kidding about that of course, but I'm sure some folks out there will think it sounds enticing.

[mr giggles]

Cue steviewonders
Cue mrgiggles
Cue sglad.

Cue Predictable

[Dodger]

Of course like some others I have had the sense, for me, to stay in nearby hotels. I am reluctant to stay in other peoples homes wherever I am.

Some prefer to experience village life to the fullest, and sleep with the natives so -to-speak. Others, would find this very difficult, if not impossible to endure. Different strokes for different folks.

Just to show you how different two people can be: I, for one, would never make the journey to a Thai friend's village if I wasn't able to reside in the same dwelling, eat the same food, wake to the sounds of the jungle around me, bathe in the same water, and help with some of the common chores. This to me is what the "Experience" is all about. We can learn much more about them through these experiences... and may even learn a bit more about ourselves in the process.

Cultural Determinism?

I have many British friends who I really like, but they all seem to have this thing about always needing to be pampered. As far as enduring the riggers of Thai village life goes, even for a few days, this is too much for them. There's no pampering in a Thai village. You're all on the same level ground, where the "Class" you see yourself in, is no different than the "Class" of the tree you're standing next to. Best to stay in a hotel.

[arsenal]

Cultural difference Dodger. We just don't feel that comfortable as house guests. We see you Americans walk into each other's houses and help yourself from the fridge. No British person would ever do that.

We do it to entire countries I'll grant you but not individuals. So when we kicked the old king of Burma out of his own country we would have waited until he offered us a drink.

[Dodger]

Cultural difference Dodger. We just don't feel that comfortable as house guests. We see you Americans walk into each other's houses and help yourself from the fridge. No British person would ever do that.

LOL...I know, I've seen this before and always scratch my head.

If I invite friends from the U.S. Australia or Ireland over for a visit, my refrigerator is going to be empty by the time they leave. They're worse than the boys. But if I invite one of my British friends over I have to twist his arm to eat a cookie. What gives???

True story: One of my best friends from Wimbledon was over for a visit once and I asked him if he wanted a sweet roll. He replied "yes, thank you". I walked over to the sofa to where he was sitting and handed him one. At first he gave me a puzzled look, and then he went on to tell me that when a sweet roll is presented to a guest in England, it's always served on a small plate or napkin. I laughed and told him we weren't in England - we were in Pattaya Thailand, and if he wanted a napkin he'd have to go to the hung nam and get some tissue. He laughed, but you could tell he really didn't think it was funny.

[arsenal]

The introduction passage from Bill Bryson's Notes from a Small Island about when he first arrived in Britain is possibly the funniest thing I've ever read.

[Sen Yai]

One of my best friends from Wimbledon was over for a visit once and I asked him if he wanted a sweet roll. He replied "yes, thank you". I walked over to the sofa to where he was sitting and handed him one. At first he gave me a puzzled look.

He was just being polite. No one from Wimbledon would have a clue what a 'sweet roll' might be.

[StevieWonders]

The introduction passage from Bill Bryson's Notes from a Small Island about when he first arrived in Britain is possibly the funniest thing I've ever read.”The introduction passage”. Those poor bloody Chinese. Anyone with a modicum of English language ability knows it’s “the introductory passage”.

That’s for those who aren’t even more interested in the back passage.

[Dodger]

He was just being polite. No one from Wimbledon would have a clue what a 'sweet roll' might be.

I didn't have the foggiest clue what Bangers n' Mash were either until I went to an English pub with the same friend.

To me "shag" meant "move along". He corrected me on this as well.

[arsenal]

Wot dus modikum meen

[christianpfc]

When I visited a friend in Srisaket and stayed at his place, I was about to ask "Where are the boys?", but he hushed "My family doesn't know I'm gay, don't tell anyone!".

I stayed at other friends' places as well, but rural life has nothing to offer for me. Nowadays, my minimum requirement is an amphoe capital with hotel, supermarket, bus station.

[Moses]

Stayed in Thai village in Isaan with my partner and our friend. Everyone in village knew friend is gay and we are too. Many people visited friend's house to see us. We felt ourselves as white elephants. But we were very welcome to all places in the village.

[gerefan2]

First shot is the place I was supposed to stay, near Surin a few years ago. I politely declined and did the usual Farang thing and stayed in an hotel in the nearby town.

Second pic is a view from my friends front verandah.

Had to take the last pic as it reminded me of my polyonymous idol taking his taxi home from Soi 4!