Sodomy and Moslems

[StevieWonders]

Sodomy for Moslems, I found out reading this week's Economist, only takes place if the penis penetrates the anus further than the line of circumcision. That information I gleaned from an article headed "Gay people are reclaiming an Islamic heritage: in the old days Muslims were quite tolerant of homosexuality". Who knew? Similarly when Lord Macartney's embassy reach Peking in 1793 he found a court steeped in sodomy, with the Qianlong Emperor having a particular favourite. Thereafter sodomy fell into disrepute in China. I'll leave arsenal to explain all of that to you.

I've reproduced the Economist's article in full to save you the bother of looking it up.


For decades regimes in the Middle East have alleged that homosexuality is both morally unacceptable and a Western import. Many gay activists disagree on both counts. Homophobia is the Western import, they claim, introduced by puritanical Europeans. “Ban the colonial law,” cried campaigners in Tunisia in December, referring to a law criminalising gay sex written by the French more than a century ago. “All these homophobic laws in the Middle East were brought in by colonialism to undermine Islam’s permissive civilisation,” says Ramy Khouili, a Tunisian activist.

History is complicated, and prejudice has ancient roots. Nonetheless, activists can point to periods of the Islamic past when Arab rulers were more liberal about sex. They relate how the Caliph Amin in ninth-century Baghdad had a male lover and feted gay poets. They read poems from a classical genre called mujun, or hedonistic smut. And they recall that the Ottoman Turks, who ruled most of the Middle East in the 19th century, decriminalised homosexuality a century before America and Britain. Back then, “you could be with a man or a woman,” says the transgender founder of north Africa’s first gay movement, the Abu Nawas Association, named after a great Arab poet, who was gay. “There were men dressed as women and living as women—and it was normal.”

“A Promenade of the Hearts”, a collection of stories and poems compiled by Ahmad al-Tifashi, a 13th-century Arab sexologist, is experiencing a revival in Beirut’s libraries. The penis, he claims, is better shaped for anal than vaginal penetration. While much classical and Ottoman poetry features male lovers, gay groups are discovering lesbian poetry from the past. “How much have we grinded sister, ninety pilgrimages/ More delightful and invisible than the entries of the penis head,” reads a couplet.

Gay poetry is not the only art form undergoing a renaissance. Muhammad Issaoui, who calls himself “a queer dancer”, adapts the traditions of male belly-dancers once common in Cairo and Beirut. He performs in Tunisia’s clubs and theatres clad just in feather boas and underpants. “It was natural for men to express their feminine sides before,” he says. “It was just pleasure and art.”

Some activists are examining old legal texts—and finding contradictions. Classical jurists upheld the Koran’s clear prohibition of sodomy, yet debated how deep the penis must penetrate to be deemed a violation. (Up to the line of circumcision, according to a standard work written by Shia Muslims.) The present-day jihadists of Islamic State throw gay people off rooftops, citing a reported saying of the Prophet endorsing the practice. But scholars have struggled to find historical cases of anyone taking this verse literally.

This gay re-engagement with Islam has its critics. Many feminists are secular and see Muslim clerics as part of the patriarchy they want to topple. Still, most are willing to lend their support to gay people now facing arrest, torture and censorship by Arab rulers. “The problem isn’t Islam,” says Rasha Younes, a Lebanon-based researcher for Human Rights Watch, a monitoring group. “It’s the oppressive regimes who want to control us and the Middle East in its name.” https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2021/05/27/gay-people-are-reclaiming-an-islamic-heritage

[Khor tose]

The present-day jihadists of Islamic State throw gay people off rooftops,

Are you talking about Chechnya or Pattaya?

Seriously. Many of the great writers, scientist, poets, philosophers and noted warriors in the Islamic world were gay or known to also enjoy the company of men. Even today gays can exist in much of the Moslem world if they are discrete. The summation statement that lays the cause of the present day discrimination is straight to the point. "It’s the oppressive regimes who want to control us and the Middle East in its name.”

One major fault of any democracy, and one base for any dictator is how willing people are to vote for, or accept leaders who wrap themselves in morality. I don't see any difference between the Moslem world and the West in this regard. Come on, when you go to judge the Moslem world remember all the raids on gay bars, bathroom entrapment, and park stakeouts. I am not talking that long ago.

[StevieWonders]

Even today gays can exist in much of the Moslem world if they are discrete. I’m guessing you meant “discreet”.

Your argument is with a writer of the Economist; I’m merely reporting their perspective.

[cdnmatt]

I don't know, the Afghan military commanders don't seem too shy about it, or feel the need to be discreet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html

[christianpfc]

Islam’s permissive civilisation
That reminds of Bild Zeitung who put "German Democratic Republic" in apostrophes because the owner thought that the GDR was neither German, nor democratic, nor a republic.

What was possible regarding gay sex in Muslim countries centuries ago is irrelevant for me, nowadays I wouldn't want to be a gay in a Muslim country (I wouldn't want to be a woman either).

Counterexample: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-dresden-islamist-knife-attacker-jailed-for-life/a-57604354

Germany: Dresden Islamist knife attacker jailed for life
The 21-year-old Syrian, motivated by homophobia, has received the maximum sentence possible after a fatal attack on a gay couple in Dresden.
That leaves the question: why did the Syrian come to Germany, a country where gays can (better: could) walk hand in hand in public?

[goji]

That leaves the question: why did the Syrian come to Germany, a country where gays can (better: could) walk hand in hand in public?

Because Germany (& other European countries) were dumb enough to let them in & treat them way better than they get treated at home, without requiring them to properly adapt to local culture and expectations.

[StevieWonders]

Because Germany (& other European countries) were dumb enough to let them in & treat them way better than they get treated at home, without requiring them to properly adapt to local culture and expectations.If only Marine Le Pen was in charge?

[cdnmatt]

Because Germany (& other European countries) were dumb enough to let them in & treat them way better than they get treated at home, without requiring them to properly adapt to local culture and expectations.

Yes, kind of like why don't more Thais know fluent English? Do they just expect us foreigners to learn Thai, or something?

[StevieWonders]

Yes, kind of like why don't more Thais know fluent English? Do they just expect us foreigners to learn Thai, or something?If they learn English they can go most places in the world. If we learn Thai there’s only one place to go.

[Armando]

Fascinating! i know little about Islam other than I love its more physical manifestations in Islamic architecture, gardens and artefacts. But from what I have read, my understanding is that there is no specific verse in the Qu'ran outlining punishment for sex between men, unlike the Bible. It only states that it is wrong for two men to have sex, but if they repent, "let them be. Allah is merciful!"

One verse in suggesting each to his own might even be regarded as implying it doesn't matter what each man does in his own life. "And if they accuse you of falsehood, say: 'My work to me and yours to you! You are free from responsibility for what I do and I for what you do."

Verse 17:84 goes even further with its reference to the inclusion amongst many others of "men who have no desire for women."

It is in the hadith, the alleged sayings of Muhammad that he specifically told his scribe and followers not to write down, that those who lived about 150 years after His death resurrected and published. These contain the stricter form of an Islamic code than in the Qu'ran. Despite inconsistencies, distortions of fact and contradictions, they have come to be incorporated into the Islamic doctrine of the more extreme proponents of the faith. Further, despite the fact that men did have sex with men at the time of Muhammad and in the following two centuries at least, it is only in the hadith that homosexuality is stated to be a "moral disorder."

As for China, the country had a long tradition of homosexuality, at least as far as we know about the ruling classes. Emperors like Wu Ti (141 – 87 BC) and the Han Emperor Ai Ti (7-1 BC) had numerous male lovers. Sharing his couch with his favourite Dong Xian, the young man fell asleep across Ai Ti's sleeve. Rather than wake him, Ai Ti took his sword and simply cut off the royal sleeve.

From then on, “cut sleeve” (黄九郎) became just one of many terms that appear throughout China’s literary history as a euphemism for homosexual love and devotion. Even as late as the 18th century, the book Passions of the Cut Sleeve outlines the fifty most famous cases of love between men in China. As suggested in the OP, the many thousands of missionaries who trailed in the wake of the traders and colonists are at least partly to blame for changing moral values in China re homosexuality.

[christianpfc]

But from what I have read, my understanding is that there is no specific verse in the Qu'ran outlining punishment for sex between men, unlike the Bible. It only states that it is wrong for two men to have sex, but if they repent, "let them be. Allah is merciful!
Above I said that the history of gay sex in Muslim countries is irrelevant to me, only the present is.
Here I say what is written in religious texts is irrelevant for me, how it is implemented is the only thing that counts. I would rather be a gay in a Christian country than in Muslim country.


From then on, “cut sleeve” (黄九郎)...
I had to look this up (the Chinese script is the name of the lover, not "cut sleeve") and came across an article on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_Sleeve that says basically the same as your two paragraphs, but in other words. Unless you are a sinologist and can quote these names and dates from memory, you must have looked it up somewhere and re-worded it? Why not quote the source?

[Armando]

Why not quote the source?
Do you seriously expect every poster to quote the sources for comments on the Board? If yes, why request sources for my comments on China and not those on Islam? You make no sense.

But you asked about China. OK. Yes, I lived in China for three years. Every Chinese gay is perfectly well aware of all the comments I made. But you want sources.

So, first source is a section in the book I have owned for many years titled "A Hidden Love: Art and Homosexuality" by Dominique Fernandez. It has a substantial section titled "The Far East" and deals with all the China issues I mentioned including Emperor Ai Ti and his lover Dong Xian whose name is often written in English as Tung Hsien. However, it does not give a translation for Cut Sleeve.

11142

Second is a paper from the American Psychological Association, part of which reads: "Homosexuality was widespread, recognized and fairly tolerated, although not entirely accepted, in ancient China. After being invaded and defeated by the Western powers in the mid- to late 19th century, "progressive" Chinese intellectuals at the turn of the 20th century believed that Chinese traditions were "backward" and the actual cause of China's defeat; they looked to Westernization as a cure for the nation. Consequently, a pathological view of homosexuality and other antihomosexual attitudes were adopted by the Chinese."

Third, "Passions of the Cut Sleeve" is referred to in multiple sources including "A Hidden Love" and the following passage from JStor Daily: "Emperor Ai was far from the only Chinese emperor to take a male companion openly."

Another definitive book "Passions of the Cut Sleeve: The Male Homosexual Tradition" written by Brett Hinsch and published in 1990 also refers to Ai Ti and Tung Hsien. He adds that in China all ten emperors who ruled over the first two centuries of the Han dynasty were 'openly bisexual,' with Ai being the tenth. Each had a '“male favorite".

You correctly state that the three Chinese characters I included are not a direct translation of cut sleeve. These would be 斷袖之癖. But both sets of characters are interchangeable in terms of meaning in historical references to homosexuality in China.

You might also wish to check your wikipedia reference. In fact it is not the story of Emperor Ai Ti and his lover. It is the title of a short story by Pu Songlin 黄九郎 translated into English as "Cut Sleeve" and which appears in a volume of stories about China. The end of the first paragraph states: "the title alludes to Emperor Ai of Han's same-sex relationship with Dong Xian." But Pu's story is pure fiction. Plus you actually refer to a book published in 1740 - not the actual facts in my earlier post.

If you still want more information, ask any Chinese gay.

[StevieWonders]

If you still want more information, ask any Chinese gay.Any? Seriously- any?

[Armando]

Any? Seriously- any?
Seriously ANY! The story of Ai Ti and the term "Cut Sleeve" is universally known (apart obviously from babies and pre-teen boys).

[StevieWonders]

Seriously ANY! The story of Ai Ti and the term "Cut Sleeve" is universally known (apart obviously from babies and pre-teen boys). Maybe in China - perhaps arsenal can do a survey! However I did a quick survey of my Chinese gay expat acquaintance. One Malaysian-born, lives with his Caucasian boyfriend - no idea, never heard of and no interest in Chinese emperors nor a term called “Cut Sleeve”. The other, a Honkie with a Taiwanese boyfriend (they host sex parties regularly) made a similar response. People who throw around words like “all”, “any” or “every” have no credibility.

[Armando]

Well if you are going to be pedantic, my reference was to gay guys in China who are the Chinese. A Malaysian Chinese is a citizen of Malaysia, not China. You can decide who is credible and who is not - as you usually do.

[StevieWonders]

Heavens yes, let’s not mean what we say for fear of being called “pedantic”

[Nirish guy]

Seriously ANY! The story of Ai Ti and the term "Cut Sleeve" is universally known (apart obviously from babies and pre-teen boys).

I actually only became aware of the whole "cut sleeve" story just this very week actually - my source - TIKTOK ! :-) See, now who said social media can't be educational eh ! :-)

[Armando]

There is an allied subject re the Moslem community and its relationship to the Jews and others. I am sure it has been aired before but I always remain curious: why is it that both religions require male circumcision? For Jews it seems to be performed within a week or so of birth. For Muslim men the ages seem to vary and can be as late as 12.

I understand it goes back to the Abrahamic myth in the Old Testament. Yet we know that nothing at that time was written down until at least 500 years after the events so described. Why base an unnecessary surgical procedure on a myth that may or not be true?

We know too that doctors, largely in the United States but also in some other countries, prescribe circumcision for health and cleanliness reasons. A 2015 WHO Report states that between 76 and 92% of US guys are circumcised. Perhaps this is the reason why almost every boy in the Philippines has had the deadliest cut - the influence of its time as an American colony, although some sources suggest that its practice goes back to tribal societies prior to colonial times.

Jewish males routinely wear the yarmulka as a symbol of their faith. Should they not also have to have a piece of clear plastic at the front of their pants to show that other symbol of their faith? Indeed, I fail to understand the point of circumcision when so few can know if you have had the procedure done or not. Do you have to show all before a rabbi? I don't have to show anyone the small scar to illustrate that I have had my appendix out.

I fully realise that some poor guys have phimosis or some other such medical difficulty. That makes circumcision important. Yet why should such an unnecessary medical procedure be a requirement of faith?

[christianpfc]

Jews and Muslims are united in circumcision and not eating pork.

Religions are illogical: in churches, wats and mosques you have to take off your hat;
but when I went to a Hindu temple in Bangkok, I had to cover my head with provided cloth.

Hindus eat pork, but no beef; Muslims eat beef, but no pork.
In India this goes as far as killing each other for suspicion of slaughtering pork or beef [citation needed].

In Islam, it's forbidden to depict Muhammed (and they take it serious! - Charlie Hebdo),
whereas Christianity and Buddhism erect statues, the bigger the better.

There is a Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, but everything other longer established and wider practiced religions claim is as credible as what the Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn claims.

And there is a Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who managed to get times for their masses displayed along with Catholic and Protestant masses for some time, but than had to remove the information sign after legal action from C and P.

[dinagam]

A 2015 WHO Report states that between 76 and 92% of US guys are circumcised.

According to the latest figures 92% of circumcised penises taste and smell better than uncut cocks. Surely the rabbis and imams have a deep understanding of the physiological advantages of prescribing such cultural practices amongst desert tribes.

[mr giggles]

Jews and Muslims are united in circumcision and not eating pork.

Religions are illogical:.

Don't forget Scientology which claims to be a religion and where participants sign Billion year contracts.

[Brad the Impala]

According to the latest figures 92% of circumcised penises taste and smell better than uncut cocks. Surely the rabbis and imams have a deep understanding of the physiological advantages of prescribing such cultural practices amongst desert tribes.

Source? Personal research?

I've always found that North African cut cocks have a very individual and appetising earthy and natural taste(bringing this back to "Sodomy and Moslems"). Too many thai cocks just taste of the shower gel at first, it all needs licking off!