Prostitutes and money boys

[Oliver2]

Dodger's thread got me thinking. Posters tend to refer to the guys they "off" as money-boys rather than prostitutes. Only a couple enjoy parading their lack of political-correctness by calling them prostitutes. Perhaps, like the character in Alice Wonderland, "....they only do it to annoy because they know it teases."

We are right to be sensitive to the feelings of our Thai friends. This was brought home to me about fifteen years ago when P and I enjoyed our first trip away together; to Patong.

One evening , we were returning to the hotel after dinner and were wandering along Walking street. As we passed a group of Amazonian khatoeys- so numerous and popular in Patong- one of them said something to P. I didn't hear and, since it was in Thai, I wouldn't have understood anyway.

He was incandescent with rage. I was amazed because one of his defining characteristics is his "jai yen"....cool heart. Mild disappointment is his response to my many transgressions. However, on this occasion he was furious. "Tell you when we are in hotel," was his answer when I asked what the hell was going on.

Apparently, one of the glittering travesty show khatoeys had called him a prostitute because he was with me.

P was wound-up in the retelling of this. " Money boy, OK, go- go boy OK," he said, adding other names which I can't remember. "Not prostitute."

I saw his point. I remember reporting to a friend when asked about an "off" I'd just had, that the guy was OK, showed expertise in his craft, was polite....but showed no warmth. There had been no connection beyond the physical. "It was like going with a prostitute," I remember saying.

And that's the difference. P. understood.

[StevieWonders]

It’s that irregular declension:

My boyfriend is an entertainer
Your boyfriend is a gogo boy
His boyfriend is a prostitute

Or maybe it’s that lower middle class obsession with euphemisms (ask a447, he’s the expert on lower middle class norms). You know the sort of thing. Did Prince Philip die, pass on, or go to meet his maker? Do you use the lavatory or the toilet? Writing paper or notepaper? Chimney piece or mantelpiece?

[goji]

Posters tend to refer to the guys they "off" as money-boys rather than prostitutes.

"noun: prostitute; plural noun: prostitutes
a person, in particular a woman, who engages in sexual activity for payment."

I thought it was often a case of gender specific names for the profession.

The UK media will (or would) typically refer to female sex workers as Prostitutes. Also Call Girls and no doubt a few other terms.
Meanwhile, the same media would tend to use the word "Rent Boy" for a male prostitute.
I'm not quite sure if that's a dated view, with politically correct terms like "sex worker" taking over.

What I do see is the letters MB sometimes appearing in profile names or descriptions on Grindr. I don't think it stands for MegaByte.
Also, some will quickly announce they are Money Boys in their first reply on the phone apps. Nice and efficient as everyone knows where they stand.

Also, I see no need to risk any offence by directly referring to the profession of someone's guest.

[cdnmatt]

I don't think it has anything to do with us wanting to be more respectful towards the guys, and instead is mostless used to rationalize our own actions and make us feel better about ourselves.

We're not those dirty perverts who pickup hookers off the streets like you see in episodes of Cops, and everyone talks so badly about! No, we're dignified folks who take our business half way across the world, while exploring a new culture and mingling with money boys.

Totally different, you see.

[dinagam]

Pot calling kettle black and much ado about nothing...

[a447]

I don't have a problem with the words "prostitute" but don't use it because if I did, I'd be the only one in my circle to do so.

My friends know exactly what I get up to and refer to the guys I meet on my trips as "money boys".

My "friends" who come to my house for fun are always referred to by their names by my friends, even though they are obviously prostitutes.

And I have never heard a guy in Thailand refer to himself as a "prostitute" (would they even know that word?) - they say "money boy".

If I had to choose, I'd use "sex worker".

[StevieWonders]

Yesterday was ANZAC Day a447 - whose son went down on you?

[snotface]

And I have never heard a guy in Thailand refer to himself as a "prostitute" (would they even know that word?) - they say "money boy".

Nor have I. There is of course a Thai word for prostitute (in transliterated form, 'so-pay-nee') but I have never heard a guy use that word about himself either, nor would I expect to. It's deemed insulting, even more so than in the West, and would only be used with that intent. What we say about our activities among ourselves is one thing (and as Oliver says our wish to appear PC or not has a lot to do with that) but get ready for a frown or, at worst, physical violence if you use it, even in an attempt at a joke, in the presence of a guy in the sex industry. As we all know, Thai culture is a face-saving one and never more so than in this regard. All the guys seem to know the term 'money boy' which, as you say, is deemed acceptable. In the Thai language they might use a term like 'poochai-kaai-borigaan' (guy selling service). But that's as close to technically accurate verbal description as they (and many farangs) want to get, even in the privacy of their own thoughts about the matter.

[gerefan2]

Just call them Whores. Latin does!

[Jellybean]

What’s in a name? The topic reminded me of the time I had an issue of finding an acceptable way to describe a prostitute.

It was a subject I had to grapple with when I worked for HM Revenue & Customs in the UK. We had received intelligence that a woman in our rather affluent district was receiving undeclared income as a prostitute. It wasn't a profession we encountered much. We had no record of her returning any income, yet from our initial research she seemed to be living quite a comfortable lifestyle without any known source of income.

As an opening gambit I sent her a tax return for the previous year. This apparently unsettled her enough to engage the services of an accountant. He telephoned me and we had a semi off the record conversation in which I revealed some background material from the intelligence package I had obtained. I informed him that I intended making an estimated discovery assessment or assessments to protect the Crown if his client intended to be uncooperative. She would then either have to pay the estimates or submit an appeal.

The accountant spoke with his client and came back to me saying she had agreed to cooperate with my enquiries and had asked him to prepare accounts on her behalf. I welcomed the news and said I would make one protective assessment for a tax year that would shortly go out of date. We then discussed the rather delicate matter of how her income would be officially described.

After discussing the matter with his client she informed her accountant that she did not want her source of income to be described as 'Earnings from prostitution' which would have been my intention. After some careful thought, and to save any embarrassment, I said I would have no objection to officially describing her source of income as "Furnished lettings".

Here on the forum, after becoming a member and when posting about my experiences, instead of using the term ‘prostitute’ I simply adopted the words I saw being used by the majority of members, i.e. ‘go-go bar boy’, ‘money boy’ or simply ‘bar boy’. Money boy seems to be the favoured term to describe prostitutes offering their services on the apps or used by some of my Internet contacts when I have met them.

As for hearing the Thai word for prostitute when in Thailand, I recall one of my long-time offs being jeered at by a group of motorcycle taxi drivers as we left my then apartment building in Bangkok. At the time he wouldn’t say what had happened to make him so upset. I found out later, when we met up with one of his Thai friends with a better command of English, that they had referred to him as a sŏo-pee-nii (the Thai word for prostitute). I noted the word in my Thai notebook, as it wasn't exactly a word I was likely to learn from my then Thai teacher. :)

[StevieWonders]

Whatever happened to that good ol’ word “hooker” (in the sexual rather than the rugby sense)?

I once met a boy in Boys Bangkok who referred to himself as a “sex worker” but his background was rather different to most.

[Dodger]

Just to clarify my feelings on this:

My reference to "Prostitutes" that I believe Oliver is referring to, came right off the headlines of an article I posted - where the author of the article must have felt the term (Prostitution) was appropriate.

Personally, I've always preferred using the term "Money Boy" when referring to boys who work on the scene. When speaking directly to a boy (or boys) who work on the scene, I tend to just call them by their names, which always seems to suffice.

I think the bigger question is: Why is it that I prefer calling them Money Boys versus Prostitutes?

Is it because it is more politically correct?
Is it because what they are doing doesn't fit the job description of a Prostitute?
Is it because I think they would find this less offensive?
Is it because I'm simply ignorant and don't understand the subtleties involved?

I think, for me anyway, the answer to all of the above is "No".

The answer isn't on the surface - it's below the surface, and has to do with protecting the perception I have of myself.

I grew up with the impression that Prostitutes were people with low moral values who sold their bodies for sex...belonging on the same shelf as the Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves, that Cher celebrated in her 1971 hit song, which drove home the point that "every night all the men would come around - and lay their money down". Right or wrong, that was (and is) my perception Prostitutes.

I feel much better about myself (physiologically) when I refer to the boys I've been with simply as "Working Boys" because that soft term helps to reinforce the image I'm trying to maintain of myself, as being a respectable person of sound moral judgement. So in reality, the term I use has very little to do with how I actually perceive them - it has everything to do with how I want to perceive myself.

I remember talking to my daughter on the phone many years ago from Thailand, and she asked the question: "What do you do at night"? I seem to recall telling her that I had many Thai friends who worked at the various gay venues, cabarets, etc., who I enjoyed spending my time with. I guess I could have just told her the truth - that I went out every night to chase Prostitutes, but, I don't think that would have gone over so well.

[StevieWonders]

Just to clarify my feelings on this:

My reference to "Prostitutes" that I believe Oliver is referring to, came right off the headlines of an article I posted - where the author of the article must have felt the term (Prostitution) was appropriate.

Personally, I've always preferred using the term "Money Boy" when referring to boys who work on the scene. When speaking directly to a boy (or boys) who work on the scene, I tend to just call them by their names, which always seems to suffice.

I think the bigger question is: Why is it that I prefer calling them Money Boys versus Prostitutes?

Is it because it is more politically correct?
Is it because what they are doing doesn't fit the job description of a Prostitute?
Is it because I think they would find this less offensive?
Is it because I'm simply ignorant and don't understand the subtleties involved?

I think, for me anyway, the answer to all of the above is "No".

The answer isn't on the surface - it's below the surface, and has to do with protecting the perception I have of myself.

I grew up with the impression that Prostitutes were people with low moral values who sold their bodies for sex...belonging on the same shelf as the Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves, that Cher celebrated in her 1971 hit song, which drove home the point that "every night all the men would come around - and lay their money down". Right or wrong, that was (and is) my perception Prostitutes.

I feel much better about myself (physiologically) when I refer to the boys I've been with simply as "Working Boys" because that soft term helps to reinforce the image I'm trying to maintain of myself, as being a respectable person of sound moral judgement. So in reality, the term I use has very little to do with how I actually perceive them - it has everything to do with how I want to perceive myself.

I remember talking to my daughter on the phone many years ago from Thailand, and she asked the question: "What do you do at night"? I seem to recall telling her that I had many Thai friends who worked at the various gay venues, cabarets, etc., who I enjoyed spending my time with. I guess I could have just told her the truth - that I went out every night to chase Prostitutes, but, I don't think that would have gone over so well.“Acknowledging they’re prostitutes would mean admitting I’m a ‘John’ and that’s not how I want perceive myself and how I want others to perceive me”

[dinagam]

Prostitutes are tradespeople and thus their position in society is higher than the common thieves and scoundrels.

[cdnmatt]

Prostitutes are tradespeople and thus their position in society is higher than the common thieves and scoundrels.


Yeah, that and Thai money boys are a world apart from the white trash drug addicts in the West, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSjVZEYEC1I

I can't see them, but they sound pretty fugly.

[Dodger]

An interesting nuance regarding the term “Prostitute”:

Offering a Thai boy money in exchange for sexual gratification, knowing that the boy is only providing this service because he comes from a vulnerable group in society, lacks the alternatives to make a living, afford an education, or support his family, and needs the money to survive, is considered “exploitation”. Exploitation, even in situations like this where it’s consensual, is prohibited in most modern societies, including Thailand, where prostitution is also illegal.

I guess if you mask the term “Prostitute”, you're also masking the existence of “Exploitation”. How convenient.

I’m just saying these things to be thought provoking, not to piss off the planet.

[arsenal]

If I had to choose a group of people* to rank highest on my list of decency then Thai money boys would probably occupy the top spot. They're absolutely bloody lovely.


* groups of people. Like women, gays, football supporters, airline stewards, relatives, the French, the English, chefs, shop assistants etc.

[cdnmatt]

needs the money to survive, is considered “exploitation”. Exploitation, even in situations like this where it’s consensual, is prohibited

Everyone except the very top are exploited, the world over. If you've ever been in the working class, meaning you've sold your time for a salary or money, then that can also be considered a form of exploitation.

What about the Amazon warehouse workers who pee in bottles? The countrless waitresses / waiters who work for like $2.50/month and rely on tips to get by? A while back I got squeezed out of a good amount of work because I made the mistake of accepting a fixed price contract which balooned out of control, and the client held my feet to the fire -- even had a paralegal running around trying to figure out my real name and address for a while. I put in probably 300 hours without pay on that contract, is that exploitation?

Everyone gets exploited to one degree or another, it's the way the world works.

[dinagam]

If I had to choose a group of people* to rank highest on my list of decency then Thai money boys would probably occupy the top spot. They're absolutely bloody lovely.


* groups of people. Like women, gays, football supporters, airline stewards, relatives, the French, the English, chefs, shop assistants etc.

One group is missing from your list - trans people and their cheerleaders.

[a447]

I would have no problem telling someone that I fuck "prostitutes". I have no qualms and feel no guilt about using that term whatsoever. Afterall, it's exactly what I do.

Where I do feel a little guilty is the fact that I don't have to worry too much about money, whereas they have to constantly think how they will pay their rent at the end of the month.

So like many others, I don't mind putting my hand into my pocket every now and then to help. As arsenal says, the Thai money boys are " absolutely bloody lovely." I would never refer to them using the pejorative term "prostitute."

[goji]

Offering a Thai boy money in exchange for sexual gratification, knowing that the boy is only providing this service because he comes from a vulnerable group in society, lacks the alternatives to make a living, afford an education, or support his family, and needs the money to survive, is considered “exploitation”.

1 Prostitution must be the only profession where the supplier is considered to be exploited. People are not seen to be exploiting Tesco by purchasing their groceries.
2 In normal times, Thailand has near full employment. Money Boys seem to be choosing the most lucrative option & they do have alternatives.
3 If an encounter only occurs because one party is making a financial contribution, the duration of the encounter does not change the level of exploitation.

I don't see it as exploitation.


If I had to choose a group of people* to rank highest on my list of decency then Thai money boys would probably occupy the top spot. Along with those from Laos & Cambodia.

[francois]

Although I do like Dodger's term "working boys" a somewhat more genteel term would be
"escorts". For myself I just use their names as they do mine.

[arsenal]

"Along with those from Laos & Cambodia."

No.

[dab69]

"angels" worthy of philanthropy.

[goji]

"Along with those from Laos & Cambodia."
No.

We seem to have different experiences then. I've been very happy with encounters with lads from Laos and Cambodia, although the sample size from Laos is much larger in my case. Remarkable when the population is only 7 million.
There is the caveat that with Khmer lads, it's perhaps more important to define what services are required in order to get tipped.

If there are any other differences, I'd like to know.

[Dodger]

I agree with what several others have said, regardless what title you give them, they are truly lovely guys.

I also agree with something a447 said that rings so true. Many of the working boys do (or, did in the past) have options regarding what type of work they did, and chose to work on the scene because they can earn quadruple the average income in Thailand. I've been fond of saying for years, that some working boys make more money than the mayor. It's a business, let's not lose sight of that, and potentially a very lucrative business in normal times.

Regardless of Webster's definition of "exploitation", I think these relationships between farang punters and working boys are more accurately defined by how they treat each other during the process. Names and titles are meaningless in this context.

Example: Farang punters who treat the boys like they're nothing more than cheap prostitutes, are, in my opinion, exploiting them. Conversely, farang with enough class and decency to treat them with the respect they deserve, are not exploiting them. That's just how I see it.

[arsenal]

No one ever described trannies as 'absolutely bloody lovely' dinagam.

Goji. My sample size of Lao is just two and while I've had more Cambodians it's still not enough to give them the same status as Thais.

[Nirish guy]

With this being 2021 and tree hugging ( or Bunny hugging if you're Boris Johnson it seems !???) being the current trends perhaps we should instead ask ourselves are labels for people and their professions even needed. If "Ton" or "Gun" or "Boat" or whoever choses to earn a crust in the sex business then good luck to him I say and when I see him I'll not be deciding should it be money boy or prostitute I call him, but merely his name.....as THAT is enough .... ( closely followed by "ok so how much for short time?")

THAT is the modern way in this 2021 .......ok, I'm off to polish my tree hugging loving the world halo now - before going to go and smash Ton, Gun and Boats back doors in later hopefully again ! :-))

[pong]

A little bit Thai:
there is-of course-a rather very crude Thai word for prossie: sohpenee. And yes indeed, besides indicating a type of job officially completely forbidden its also quite derogatory in Thai. Though its mainly only used for females. Most likely this is what the Patong LBs whispered or screamed. Most of the guys-even when they danca agogo on a daily base, will not perceive themselves as being that.
I think it was goji who mentioned his ample meetings with Laos guys: well, many call also the numerous Thai-Isany guys as being from Laos-their dialect is quite similar. Perhaps thats the confusion. I fondly remember one real Laos guy in a massageshop who seemed there mostly working for his own pleasure.

[a447]

I think these relationships between farang punters and working boys are more accurately defined by how they treat each other during the process.

That sums it up perfectly.

[Oliver2]

Exactly. And the quality of that interaction is the result of respect and at least an attempt at understanding, difficult though that can be.

I've made no secret of the fact that the more I've learnt while I've been with P, the more understanding I have of why some guys become money -boys. And, as I've written before, it doesn't mean that I, or any of us, are involved in some sort of charitable ego-trip. The guys I know- all in their late thirties now- loved their lives on the scene ending- up, in all but one case, on their feet.
Perhaps that' s one of the differences between them and some, or many, of the women, who may return to a unforgiving village, past their sell-by marriage date.

[StevieWonders]

There seems to be confusion in some recent posts about whether we’re referring to them in conversation with friends or family as “prostitutes” or whether we’re calling them a “prostitute” to their face.

[cdnmatt]

Could always try ancient Roman style if desired.

"Slave, don't you dare show your back to me!".

Oh... wait...

[latintopxxx]

oh what a tired old topic...maybe we simply have to accept that some guys actually choose and enjoy the lifestyle...its not an imposition...its something they actively seek out and want..the money is real good and if one is a hungry power bottom then the job is real pleasureable, easy, non demanding....unlike a top whose equipment needs to rise to the occasion.......combine this with easy hours...mostly great working conditions....whats not to like I ask..as for treating them with "respect"....wtf does that mean...LOL...ok enough abbreviations...

[StevieWonders]

Microsoft has a new online advertisement for their Surface computer. The friend who sent me the advertisement wondered if they would sell the boy separately.

11036

[latintopxxx]

im shocked...shocked i tell u...knowing how woke the big corporations are and running scared of the sjw...id think that the model would be a non-white lesbian with some sort of obvious disability like a wooden leg or something...

[Dodger]

...... The guys I know- all in their late thirties now- loved their lives on the scene ending- up, in all but one case, on their feet.

I agree with everything you said up till this point.

Unfortunately, I hold memories of 7 friends aged 19-26 who are dead now because of the lifestyles they chose for themselves while working on the scene. The causes of their deaths included; untreated HIV, alcohol poisoning, drug overdose, suicide, and homicide.

There are many others who worked the scene in Pattaya who ended up getting incarcerated in either Chonburi or Nong Palie prisons, mostly for drug possession (yaba/ice), with sentences ranging from 1-7 years - who you never see or hear about any more. Some have been released, and some weren't as fortunate, and died miserably in prison. It pains me to say I've seen this with my very eyes.

Another reality in the life of a Working Boy, is that after they exceed their shelf-life, which is typically around 32 years old, they leave town just as broke as when they first arrived - and are faced with the same lack of opportunities that they were faced with when they first came to town. Certainly, there are those who saved or invested their income to provide a future for themselves, but, in my opinion, those are few and far between.

The life of the Working Boy isn't always paved with gold as some seem to believe.

[Ruthrieston]

And I know of more than one young gentleman who dedicated years to caring for an ageing farang, sleeping on the floor of the hospital under the old boy's bed to be near when he was needed, only for the old farang to die and the family to travel to Thailand and kick the young man out on the street with nothing.

[cdnmatt]

after they exceed their shelf-life, which is typically around 32 years old, they leave town just as broke as when they first arrived - and are faced with the same lack of opportunities that they were faced with when they first came to town. Certainly, there are those who saved or invested their income to provide a future for themselves, but, in my opinion, those are few and far between.

Well, NIrish is thinking about retiring, and he loves the financial markets. Maybe he could start a financial consultancy for Thai hookers.

See, I'm full of good ideas.

[arsenal]

"No one ever described trannies as 'absolutely bloody lovely' dinagam."

Talking of trannies. I just watched an episode of Amazing Hotels, this one was at Ashford Castle in Ireland. The hotel restaurant George Vhas a dress code for men but not for ladies. So where does this leave the tranny set, going in either direction?

[StevieWonders]

So where does this leave the tranny set, going in either direction?Wherever their rich fantasy life takes them.

[christianpfc]

I see "prostitute" or "whore" as a mindset, a character flaw; a person who always looks for immediate and high payment, or always asks "what's in it for me?". I have met only few such people during my travels, and would quickly move on once I realize.

I consider "money boy" or "escort" or "gogo boy" a job, just like hairdresser or undertaker.


What I do see is the letters MB sometimes appearing in profile names or descriptions on Grindr. I don't think it stands for MegaByte.
Also, some will quickly announce they are Money Boys in their first reply on the phone apps. Nice and efficient as everyone knows where they stand.
There is even underwear to that effect:

11062


...describing her source of income as "Furnished lettings".
As letting out a furnished room for short periods of time? I.e. receiving her customers in her accommodation? That is far fetched to describe her source of income.

[StevieWonders]

I see "prostitute" or "whore" as a mindset, a character flaw; a person who always looks for immediate and high payment, or always asks "what's in it for me?". I have met only few such people during my travels, and would quickly move on once I realize.

I consider "money boy" or "escort" or "gogo boy" a job, just like hairdresser or undertaker. Your own blog paints you as a relentless “bottom feeder” (no pun intended) in this regard, which may skew your perceptions. “Prostitution” is defined in English as “having sex for money” (I understand that’s also the legal definition) so that a “money boy” is simply a euphemism for “prostitute”.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/prostitution