The perils of Grindr in Thailand

[StevieWonders]

What beats me is “he tricked them into telling him their Internet banking password”!

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2104487/man-used-gay-dating-app-to-steal-from-foreigners

[cdnmatt]

Not sure if it was so much the cunningness of the Thai to get their online banking assword, as it was the stupidity of the farangs to give it out.

Besides, who uses things such as momorable passwords for online banking anymore? It's insecure enough just by having password authentication altogether, much less using momorable passwords.

[fedssocr]

using 2 factor authentication can be a good idea too

[cdnmatt]

using 2 factor authentication can be a good idea too

Best we got over HTTPS, yep. If using e-mail 2FA, just make sure not to use the same password for e-mail as you do for online banking.

[Armando]

In my view this is one of the real negatives of using the apps, the more so in a time of economic hardship. Leave aside the idiocy of anyone handing over passwords on a silver platter. Invite into your hotel/home a guy whom you know nothing about but who looks sexy and you want immediate sex. Sometimes you are going to end up with bad apples. It's not merely a question of passwords. Probably some of your cash and valuables are in the hotel room safe. Are they really safe? Of course not. A knife at your throat will be sufficient incentive to hand over the door code. If you are in a cheaper hotel with much less security than more expensive ones, that cutie you have invited into your room will have noted the room number. As you shower, he may have drugged your drink. How are you to know that at the same time he is not calling his pals who will soon be knocking on your door? Bye bye cash, phone, computer, nice clothes and anything else that might be saleable.

There is another thread with the future of saunas being discussed. This is one reason why finding a sexy guy in a sauna is infinitely preferable to the apps. Equally if you take a boy from a bar, that bar has all the guy's details. He knows he would be immediately fired and the cops would be on to him.

The number of robbery cases may presently be small - although my gut tells me there are more than are actually reported. As gay tourists return and keep staying in cheap hotels, surely they are bound to rise.

[a447]

The security problems associated with allowing strangers to enter your room can be somewhat alleviated if you only stay in accommodation which has CCTV at reception and where a note is taken of the guy's photo ID.

I doubt calling the police would be of any help, as prostitution is illegal and you may find yourself in hot water by either being arrested or receiving a demand for hush money from the police.

No matter what country you are in, engaging the services of money boys is always AYOR. In Thailand I believe the risks are quite low. Or at least low enough to be acceptable.

[Oliver2]

We shouldn't forget that some of the Thais are themselves at risk in varying degrees when entering our rooms. Not rooms of contributors to this board, obviously! Risks include demands for forms of sex that are unwelcome, under-payment for alleged under-performance (whose "under-performance" I wonder?), lack of personal cleanliness and hilariously, as reported by Dodger, facing and servicing a falang whose photo is out-of-date.

And to whom can a MB turn to if treated badly? Certainly not the police. If the off was from a bar, he can ensure that none of the other guys will go with the offending falang. But an app encounter? I've never felt vulnerable, sometimes disappointed, once or twice annoyed....but never nervous. I can't believe that's true of a MB.

[cdnmatt]

We shouldn't forget that some of the Thais are themselves at risk in varying degrees when entering our rooms. Not rooms of contributors to this board, obviously! Risks include demands for forms of sex that are unwelcome, under-payment for alleged under-performance

Or the times when the boy goes back to the one guys room, only to find out there's four other guys hiding out in the bathroom waiting for the Thai guy to get into the room too far to leave.

[Marc K]

We shouldn't forget that some of the Thais are themselves at risk in varying degrees when entering our rooms. Not rooms of contributors to this board, obviously! Risks include demands for forms of sex that are unwelcome, under-payment for alleged under-performance (whose "under-performance" I wonder?), lack of personal cleanliness and hilariously, as reported by Dodger, facing and servicing a falang whose photo is out-of-date.

And to whom can a MB turn to if treated badly? Certainly not the police. If the off was from a bar, he can ensure that none of the other guys will go with the offending falang. But an app encounter? I've never felt vulnerable, sometimes disappointed, once or twice annoyed....but never nervous. I can't believe that's true of a MB.


Oliver, you are so right. I think we often fail to see the world through another's eyes. I often have wondered how often things go "bad" for the MB... probably as often or possible even more often than for the farang.

I've often been amazed at how often the MB turns out to be a decent, kind, probably dirt poor yet smiling, nice guy just trying to do his job. Alas of course there will be exceptions but, in my experience anyway, exceedingly rare. And perhaps we should be better judges before choosing, I think in most cases the tell-tale signs are there, which should yield few surprises, if we only used our head instead of our head.

[Brad the Impala]

I doubt calling the police would be of any help, as prostitution is illegal and you may find yourself in hot water by either being arrested or receiving a demand for hush money from the police.



You may well be right in the main, but contacting the police will not necessarily be in vain as in the case above:


Police had received complaints from several foreigners that a Thai man using a pseudonym had approached them via dating chat apps for gays, such as Grindr, Blued, Romeo, Aloha and Homet. The man slept with them in hotel rooms, then stole from them. Investigators learned that the suspect stayed at a condominium room in Chong Nonsi area. He was arrested, and about 10 bank account books and cash cards were seized from his room.

In fact by reporting the thefts, leading to the thief's arrest, others would have been protected from him.

[arsenal]

To clarify. From Wikipedia. So when you take the hot and sexy, tall and handsome, tanned and dusky, athletic and lithe boy back to your hotel room for paid sexual services.
YOU ARE NOT BREAKIING THE LAW.

"Obtaining sexual services for oneself without any of the aggravating circumstances (underage sex worker, trafficking, by fraud, deceit, threat, violence, or the exercise of undue influence or coercion) remains legal and is unpunished under Thai law."

[a447]

When it comes to the interpretation of the law, I would not rely on Wikipedia. I doubt the police do, either.

And Brad, yes I also read about that but but the police decided to act on this case probably because of the serious fraud involved. There was mention of multiple victims and multiple bank accounts and cash cards (credit cards?).

I once had a rather expensive watch stolen from a massage place in Pattaya. I was largely to blame, as I had brought it to Thailand by mistake - normally I wear something cheap but only realised once I was on the plane.

I trudged all the way up the hill to the police, only to find they weren't interested and would not accompany me back to the massage place to retrieve it from the "masseur."

I was told a number of times that I was very lucky the police didn't go to the massage place, as at the very least I was opening myself up to making a very large "donation" to their retirement funds. And that is something I believe could easily have happened. The reputation of the Pattaya police precedes them.

At the end of the day, the police take the side of their fellow Thais and couldn't give a flying fuck about us.

[StevieWonders]

To clarify. From Wikipedia. So when you take the hot and sexy, tall and handsome, tanned and dusky, athletic and lithe boy back to your hotel room for paid sexual services.
YOU ARE NOT BREAKIING THE LAW.

"Obtaining sexual services for oneself without any of the aggravating circumstances (underage sex worker, trafficking, by fraud, deceit, threat, violence, or the exercise of undue influence or coercion) remains legal and is unpunished under Thai law."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution

Very few countries prosecute both the sex worker and the customer. Feminists would argue that that is because “men run the world” and organise laws to their own advantage. It doesn’t mean that prostitution isn’t illegal - only the sex workers are penalised. Thailand is very much a man’s world. It’s also intensely hierarchical socially - sex workers are at the bottom of the pile and therefore insignificant; their customers have money and at least on that score matter more.

“Follow the money” is one of life’s most persistent rules.

[StevieWonders]

At the end of the day, the police take the side of their fellow Thais and couldn't give a flying fuck about us.Typical paranoia but probably true of Pattaya. I’ve always found the Tourist Police in Bangkok both able and willing - even not particularly corrupt.

[a447]

You are talking about the tourist police who work amongst the public. They do a great PR job and are regularly featured in TV documentaries on Thailand showing them helping hapless farang.

They are not the police I'm referring to.

[StevieWonders]

You are talking about the tourist police who work amongst the public in Pattaya in places such as Waking Street. They do a great PR job and are regularly featured in TV documentaries on Thailand.

They are not the police I'm referring to.Evidently you’re completely ignorant of the role of the Tourist Police in Thailand. ONE of their roles - and ONLY ONE - is to maintain a presence in areas such as Walking Street. There’s also a Tourist Police box at one end of Patpong. However their role is for ALL THINGS relating to tourists and that even includes resident expats. If you Google “tourist police Thailand” you’ll find plenty of advice such as “they can be called upon in all kinds of situations ... theft ... where a foreign tourist is involved”.

As I believe they say in your country “ignorance is no excuse”.

[a447]

Evidently you’re completely ignorant of the role of the Tourist Police in Thailand. ONE of their roles - and ONLY ONE - is to maintain a presence in areas such as Walking Street. There’s also a Tourist Police box at one end of Patpong. However their role is for ALL THINGS relating to tourists and that even includes resident expats. If you Google “tourist police Thailand” you’ll find plenty of advice such as “they can be called upon in all kinds of situations ... theft ... where a foreign tourist is involved”.

As I believe they say in your country “ignorance is no excuse”.

I wrote:


They are not the police I'm referring to.

[StevieWonders]

I wrote:Yes, in complete, total, utter ignorance of Thailand you reported to the general Thai police what you should have reported to the Tourist Police. You’re just a typical ignorant sex tourist who knows nothing outside the 100 square metres of boy bars and brothels

[cdnmatt]

I always thought the tourist police had no real power, and were basically just liasons to the Thai police?

For example, I thought they can't actually conduct an arrest themselves, but they can ask a Thai police officer to arrest someone.

[a447]

you reported to the general Thai police what you should have reported to the Tourist Police.

Did I?

There was a hint with regards to whom I reported the theft - I said that I had "trudged all the way up the hill to the police."

If you walk up that hill you come to a building with a sign outside which reads:


Tourist police station 4
Sub-division 2 Tourist Police Division 1

You can see the sign clearly in Street view on google earth.

Oh, dear.

As they say in our country, "ignorance is no excuse".

[arsenal]

Police and their associated agents (tourist Police, traffic police etc) have leeway in every country in the world. Here in China they act as mobile courts and can be asked to attend almost any dispute.

And steviebabes. This idea you have that sex tourists know nothing about Thailand is so childish. Indeed our experience perhaps greatly exceeds yours on a whole range of matters....motorbike hire, traffic laws, transport, hiring boys, hotels, restaurants, go go bars. Just because you live there doesn't mean everyone has to agree with everything you say. In your previous incarnation you often wrote that you'd been to Pattaya once and yet here you are telling us all the exact location of police boxes. So if we choose to consider you an unreliable source of information then that is the role you designed for yourself.

Cue short and trite reply. Don't disappoint me now.

[StevieWonders]

Did I?And as I said “... Pattaya”. If you spend your time slumming ...

[a447]

We weren't discussing "slumming" as I recall.

We were talking about the tourist police.

So, who told you that I had reported the incident to "the general Thai police"?

[StevieWonders]

We weren't discussing "slumming" as I recall.

We were talking about the tourist police.

A very poor attempt at obfuscation on your part.Would this be better?
You are talking about the tourist police who work amongst the public. They do a great PR job and are regularly featured in TV documentaries on Thailand showing them helping hapless farang.

They are not the police I'm referring to.

[mr giggles]

I always thought the tourist police had no real power, and were basically just liasons to the Thai police?

For example, I thought they can't actually conduct an arrest themselves, but they can ask a Thai police officer to arrest someone.

And, I understand the tourist police are volunteers.

[StevieWonders]

And, I understand the tourist police are volunteers.Indeed, a peculiarly Pattaya institution, which means we’re back to slumming.

[cdnmatt]

And, I understand the tourist police are volunteers.

Oh right, so complaining to a tourist police officer that you're hooker ripped you off is about the equivalent in the West to complaining to mall security because your drug dealer didn't give you as much cocaine as promised.

[a447]

Would this be better?

Oh, dear. (Again!)

The hints were here:


tourist police who work amongst the public and


They do a great PR job

Still too subtle for you?

[StevieWonders]

a447’s statement that in effect he complained to the Tourist POLICE rather than the TOURIST Police is eerily similar to Larry Kudlow’s latest reported comment on Fox News that President Biden will be “forcing people to drink plant-based beer”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/larry-kudlow-plant-based-beer-joe-biden_n_6084b41ae4b0ccb91c24f815

[a447]

Indeed, a peculiarly Pattaya institution

Stevie wrote:


I’ve always found the Tourist Police in Bangkok....

[a447]

a447’s statement that in effect he complained to the Tourist POLICE rather than the TOURIST Police is eerily similar to Larry Kudlow’s latest reported comment on Fox News that President Biden will be “forcing people to drink plant-based beer”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/larry-kudlow-plant-based-beer-joe-biden_n_6084b41ae4b0ccb91c24f815

Keep digging!

You've found yourself in a hole too deep to get out of.

Your mistake was commenting on the police, tourist or otherwise, in a city you know nothing about.

Best just stick to Bangkok.

[StevieWonders]

I’m happy to leave the slumming to those for whom the slum is their natural environment. But your very first comment was about the Thai police, not the Pattaya police. As a Moderator you should be cognisant of the defamation laws of Thailand. You have brought the Forum to entirely the same reputational and business risks about which you are so keen to attribute to others.

[a447]

But your very first comment was about the Thai police, not the Pattaya police.

Err...the police in Pattaya to whom I refer are Thai.

Their nationality doesn't change depending on which city in Thailand they work.

As for defaming the Thai police surely you jest. Police and political corruption has been reported on this forum for around 20 years! And often in relation to sex workers.

Oh, and it is regularly reported in the English-language newspapers in Thailand and online.

Nice try at obfuscation, but I'm a little disappointed as you used to do better.

So no matter what the argument about Thai (tourist) police, my point remains the same. It could be dangerous to report any incident involving money boys to the police.

Everything is AYOR. Even more so with freelancers on the apps. With a guy you off from a bar, you at least may have some comeback.

[goji]

So no matter what the argument about Thai (tourist) police, my point remains the same. It could be dangerous to report any incident involving money boys to the police.
Everything is AYOR. Even more so with freelancers on the apps. With a guy you off from a bar, you at least may have some comeback.

1 The vast majority of boys are very well behaved & I expect such problems are very rare.

2 I try to filter out ones with attitude issues.

3 If problems did arise, considering a good proportion of them are non-Thai, even the THREAT of calling the police ought to have some effect, since they are not even supposed to be in the country. Actually calling the police seems unwise.

[dinagam]

Invest in a small metal detector and screen every guest as they enter your room, and lock up metal cutlery together with your phone and wallet. Keep a pepper spray handy.

[a447]

1 The vast majority of boys are very well behaved & I expect such problems are very rare.

That's exactly what I have found, at least with guys from the bars.

I haven't used the apps in Thailand.

My one and only experience with apps was in Prague and despite having reservations, it turned out well in the end, so to speak.

[cdnmatt]

Not to point out the obvious here, but you could always avoid these dangers by simply not spending thousands of dollars to fly half way across the world and spend time in a red light district surrounded by hookers.

If you're doing this, you kinda go in accepting a certain level of risk. That's part of the fun. :)

[Oliver2]

What advice would board members give to MBs who have been underpaid, subjected to demands for unwelcome practices, such as no condoms, SM and water-sports, or hurt during sex? Sometimes, they need money to pay rent or to eat and so are particularly vulnerable.

[goji]

What advice would board members give to MBs who have been underpaid, subjected to demands for unwelcome practices, such as no condoms, SM and water-sports, or hurt during sex?

Mostly, the advice would be to grow a pair of balls and say no. Then if a particular customer is a problem, spread the word amongst their friends.
Occasionally I've seen evidence of boys on the apps stating they don't want to meet Indians or something like that. Presumably down to some previous bad experiences. So there is evidence of the boys learning from the experience.

Hurt during sex depends on where it is on the scale. If they agree to bottom, they ought to honour that promise, rather than make excuses. If it's some more sadistic abuse, I'm firmly on the side of the boy.

[arsenal]

Dinagam wrote.
"Invest in a small metal detector and screen every guest as they enter your room, and lock up metal cutlery together with your phone and wallet. Keep a pepper spray handy."

Insufficient security methinks. I always have several highly trained dogo argentino's present along with a couple of armed swat team members and my room is equipped with the latest bomb detection devices, just in case. Not that I've needed them in over 200 trysts but you can't be too careful.

[Nirish guy]

There are several episodes of that Thai Tourist police show filmed in Walking Street where the ladies / ladyboys come up screaming at the police that a customer hasn't paid then for sex as promised ( or paid not enough).

The tourist police handle such disputes just as would for other civil dispute whilst simply ignoring the type of the business transaction which took place that caused the problem in the first place. As there's usually some pushing and shoving ( and screaming) going on from the ladyboy the police usually end up strongly suggesting to the usually newbie and / or drunk farang that it would simply be in their interests to pay up, usually a slightly reduced amount perhaps to keep everyone happy rather than have to be taken down to the police station to sort it all out and perhaps face an assault charge.


I'm always amazed that the Thai authorities allow such clips to be shown ( as I'm sure they have to sign off on the final edits of such shows), but I'm guessing they see it was "educational" in instructing newly visiting farang how NOT to behave when in Pattaya and the "sex" part of the story is simply ignored.

[a447]

What advice would board members give to MBs who have been underpaid, subjected to demands for unwelcome practices, such as no condoms, SM and water-sports, or hurt during sex?

Grab your things and run!

There have been times in Eros when I saw guys I knew well not getting compensated for their time - the farang had either given them a measly 20 baht tip or nothing at all. In those cases I have willingly paid the guys what they deserve. But I can't do that for everyone.

Needless to say the next time the farang appears, he is totally ignored.

[a447]

I'm always amazed that the Thai authorities allow such clips to be shown ( as I'm sure they have to sign off on the final edits of such shows), but I'm guessing they see it was "educational" in instructing newly visiting farang how NOT to behave when in Pattaya and the "sex" part of the story is simply ignored.

We have TV shows like that too. They are simply PR exercises - come to Thailand, we'll look after you, spend up big....

Other programs show the real situations - the jet ski scam, for example - where the farang get very little support.

[Nirish guy]

We have TV shows like that too. They are simply PR exercises - .

Correct, which is why though I'm always surprised they're allowed to record the TRUE side of what goes on as we often lead to believe that the Thai authorities wish to promote Pattaya as an all new family holiday resort these days.

Perhaps in a strange twist the Covid outbreak will allow them to reimagine the town as exactly that seeing as a lot of the sex type bars may well be gone if and when life as we knew it ever returns !?

[arsenal]

a447 wrote.
"There have been times in Eros when I saw guys I knew well not getting compensated for their time - the farang had either given them a measly 20 baht tip or nothing at all. In those cases I have willingly paid the guys what they deserve. But I can't do that for everyone."

One Boy in Winner Bar told me a farang had some fun with him and left him 12 baht. The going rate for some fun is 200 although upon my return I think I'll put it up to 240. And yes, Winner Bar is definitely a bar to have some fun in. Unless you're MFAS...hahaha.

[a447]

..upon my return I think I'll put it up to 240.

Good on you!

If and when I get back to LOS, I think I will be a little more generous, too.

Considering the pleasure they have given me, it's the least I can do.

[Keith]

I have used Grindr in Bangkok, and had little problem. One guy turned up who was 10 years older than his photo, and I politely pointed that out, and he left my room without any issues. Otherwise had successful meets, with repeat business! I do stay in a 5 star hotel, Meridien, with good security. I agree, though, with not leaving the boy alone, while you shower, etc, just in case.
I use apps in UK, where I live, and again, no problems, have found several regulars from Grindr. Mind you, the success rate is around 1 in 30, as there are some weird guys on there. And I am an older guy. Once you get as far as getting them to my house, no problems. I use apps all over the continent, and in the USA, again, usually with success. Nevertheless, I still like to go to the massage Parlours, and go go bars, as they are fun! I also have had good times there. If, and when, I get back to Bangkok, I will be using apps, and bars!

[christianpfc]

The perils of Grindr in Thailand
The article says "dating chat apps for gays, such as Grindr, Blued, Romeo, Aloha and Homet".

Some comments on the article:
"a Thai man using a pseudonym" Do they mean nickname or profile name?
"about 10 bank account books and cash cards were seized from his room" How did he get the bank account books?
"After persuading them to sleep with him in hotel rooms, he tricked them into revealing the passwords for the internet banking apps they used."
It usually does not take much persuasion to have sex when I chat with someone gay online dating. But I'm curious how he got the internet banking passwords. Thai banks (i.e. the victims were expats) or foreign banks? For foreign banks there is the added difficulty of language and intricacies of international transfer and different layout for every website.
"He also drugged some of his victims and stole their cash and other valuables." Now that is a concern for me, being drugged and other valuables (which might be irreplaceable) being stolen.
"had stolen from at least 10 foreign men" the dark number will be much higher.

Other questions that remain: was the encounter free (other than the stolen stuff) or sex for money? Did he target expats or tourists?