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Armando
April 20th, 2021, 13:53
I assumed from a thread some months ago that Babylon was now closed. Judging by a number of sites thrown up by google, it seems it is definitely open. True? Whatever, I thought a thread of memories of this most iconic of gay sauna/spas might throw up some interesting posts similar in a way to memories of Soi Twilight.

The 'present' Babylon is of course its second incarnation, the first having been located in the much smaller building at the top of Soi Nanta/Mozart (where there is now a different kind of beauty spa). At the outset it occupied only about half the total space in the building. Later the other section with more rooms, its own staircase and a second coffee shop on the ground floor was opened up. I remember hearing about it quite soon after its opening around 1990/91. Some years earlier I had sampled what I believe was the first gay sauna, Volt off Asoke. Soon I had ventured to Obelisks with its jacuzzi on the roof. Then there was one which I enjoyed many times. It was located on the right at the end of a sub soi off Ploenchit between what is now the Holiday Inn Hotel and Central Department store. I spent New Year's Eve there in 1986 and met a delightful guy who worked at a nearby hotel. I took him to the amazing Royal Barge Procession held later in 1987 to mark the King's 60th Birthday.

Babylon, though, was very different. The entrance had Thai artefacts in a glass covered case on the left before the reception desk. There was also a small sitting area which got crowded at weekends. I quickly learned it was important to get there early. Departing the sauna around 7:00 pm or slightly later, in addition to the seats all being filled there would always be a queue waiting to get it. Most in those days seemed to be younger Thais and young to middle-aged farang. I think the changing room was on the first floor (memory lapse!) as was the cafe filled with patrons in their towels or robes. At the weekends there would be live music, usually on a guitar or some other quiet instrument so that conversation was easy. Indeed there was gentle music piped throughout the sauna, most of it from the classical repertoire.

Oddly, or so I thought, there was a small massage room almost in the cafe. For at least two years it was staffed by a lovely young lad named, I recall, Gun. If I had not hooked up with another patron, I would always try to have a massage before dining. Gun was wonderful! On the same floor there were only 8 or 9 small rooms. With the expansion, after 6:00 pm a partition would be opened and another 8 or so became available.

On the top floor was the open-air bar with tables covering most of the area, and a shower area at the end furthest from Sathorn Soi 1. I believe there was also a staircase at the opposite end of the bar from the showers which led down to ?. There my memory has another gap. I expect it was to another shower area. Sitting in the bar area with a gentle breeze blowing was magical, always with loads of eye candy passing back and fore. Occasionally someone would return your gaze and join you for a drink and then down to the rooms. My only concern was when Panthip Court (now Panthip Suites) was being built and towered over Babylon. I always assumed those on the top floors with binoculars would see us all enjoying ourselves.

Rooms were regularly cleaned. The staff were always extremely efficient and polite - and most were cute. I always thought it felt more like a club than a sauna. I managed to keep my activities to enjoying the sight of beautiful bodies and what we had all come for - sex. Only once did I let my guard down. Leaning against a wall just as it had got dark outside (and was therefore dark also inside), I heard a voice behind me. He asked my name. What a strange question to ask in a sauna, I thought. It turned out he had recently hooked up with a guy named David and he wanted to make sure I was not him! I was not even curious because it was an Australian accent. Sorry, I said. I'm only interested in meeting Thais. It turned out he was in fact Thai. He had lived in Australia while studying at a Sydney university for three years and developed a strongish Australian accent! After I turned around it was difficult to make out his features, but he looked interesting. End result was we finally ended up not just in a room, he accompanied me for dinner outside the sauna and then back to my hotel.

By the next morning, i knew I was smitten. Over the next few months, I returned several times just to meet up again with him. He always met me at Don Mueang. Once I only had about 20 hours available and so we spent them in each other's arms holed up at the airport hotel. We started talking seriously about becoming much more than a casual fling. Although we both wanted it, it was totally impractical as we lived too far apart. I did think about trying to get a sabbatical and coming to live in Bangkok with him for a year. Eventually reason took over and we realised that we could never be together more than occasionally. One morning with both of us in tears, we said goodbye. I never saw him again as he returned to Australia.

But that was merely an entr-acte. My Babylon visits continued. The most remarkable memory I have of those later years before the move was again of waiting outside a room. There were quite a few Thais waiting, including one who came and stood in front of me. Peering through gaps in the accordion-like doors to try seeing some of the action inside was a common desire. Eventually, the two in that room came out and the Thai guy took my hand and led me inside. We lay down on the bed without taking off our robes. His back was to my front and so I slowly slid my hand downwards. I then had a theatrical-like 'double take'. The erection I discovered was the largest I had ever experienced in the country. It must have been close to 9 inches! I draw a veil over what then happened!

For a reason I still cannot work out, I never liked Babylon in its second incarnation further down the soi. I can understand why many loved it, especially with the pool and the large gym. A couple of years or so prior to the move, a Thai friend had recommended another newish sauna off Soi Aree - Chakran. Beautifully decorated in a Moroccan-type theme, it had an intimacy the new Babylon was to lack. It's small pool was in the building with a bar to one side. I loved just sitting on the loungers with a drink watching the almost exclusively young Thai patrons descend from the first floor on the open stairs opposite. Close by was the large jacuzzi and an even larger L-shaped dark steam room. Some years after it opened, that area would be curtained off to become a totally nude section. Was that the first one in Bangkok? I think so. I ended up loving that sauna much more than the new Babylon. By around 2005, though, it began to lose its lustre as it had become a venue for mostly sticky rice. But this post is about Babylon so I will end here.

Oliver2
April 20th, 2021, 21:20
Thanks for recalling those memories. I, too, preferred the old Babylon despite the fact that I regularly was lost in the maze (or so it seemed) of staircases. On the other hand, I was always surrounded by handsome guys and so what?
But I suppose that the reason, the real reason, I preferred it was that it was always chock-a-block with handsome Thais while today's Babylon is, to out in mildly, often quiet. Or very quiet.

AdamKY
April 21st, 2021, 02:49
Old world charm, atmosphere, warm, quality & intimate describes my take on the original Babylon. It wasn't laid out to be efficient, but it sure was effective. Favorite feature was maze with capsules near by.

The newer Babylon is/was fine with many features not found at the old one including efficient intimacy, ugh. I won't miss it since I prefer the less commercialized atmosphere of the small, out-of-the-way saunas.

latintopxxx
April 21st, 2021, 05:38
I love the current babylon as the focus is not solely on sex...love the pool, the bars the restaurant..the fact most of it is outdoors...love people watching around the pool...the foam parties..its the obkly reason I stay in BKK for more than a couiple of nights...I detest shopping...have seen more temples and palaces than I care to admit to..night markets are boring..selling same stuff...like how many fake ray bans do I really need...so its off to babylon around 11ish...spend the day there...aalways manage to fuck at least twice...leave around 7...dinner...then gogo bars or silom soi4 for drinks...occasionally will pop out around midday for a sex massage...especially if things are a bit slow...in pattaya I simplky replace babylon with dongtang beach..

christianpfc
April 21st, 2021, 23:41
My room in Bangkok is in walking distance to Babylon, but I only make it there about once per year. I never had much luck there, and even if I see someone I like (not on every visit), and the feeling is mutual (even rarer), I would rather have sex in my hotel room than in a sauna private room.

I attended one New Year's and one Songkran party at Babylon, both were disappointing. The foam party was interesting to experience once (and once is enough for me), but it quickly gets wet and cold (which I don't like) and even worse, everyone else seemed to have fun, whereas I was just looking for hook-up, in vain.

Out of estimated 20 visits to Babylon in 2009-2019 (I couldn't go in 2020 and 2021), only one sticks out because I met a boy Ton there who would then (2013-2014) become a regular, but then lost contact (one day, Line didn't work any more, calling him no reply, and over time and other boys, I gave up).

The same applies to most saunas I have been too (all over SEAsia, Taiwan, some in Brazil), that's why nowadays I go just for entertainment without any hope of a hook-up.

Marc K
April 22nd, 2021, 05:30
The same applies to most saunas I have been too (all over SEAsia, Taiwan, some in Brazil), that's why nowadays I go just for entertainment without any hope of a hook-up.

I also for a time was a habitué of Babylon. Despite its flaws (some pointed out in above messages) to me it was unique in the world. A place you could have endless fun (almost) without guilt. :) All other saunas around the world which I have ever experienced seemed grimy, foreboding, and to say it plainly, slutty and sleazy, by comparison.

I think I could have almost taken my mother there for a nice meal, a drink at the pool, and... without worry. :)) How exactly they pulled off this illusion goes far past interior decoration and good housekeeping. I think it revealed something special to us farang about the nature of Thai sexuality?

Armando
April 22nd, 2021, 09:39
I also for a time was a habitué of Babylon. Despite its flaws (some pointed out in above messages) to me it was unique in the world. A place you could have endless fun (almost) without guilt. :) All other saunas around the world which I have ever experienced seemed grimy, foreboding, and to say it plainly, slutty and sleazy, by comparison.
I agree that many are as you describe, but certainly not all. I wonder how many you have experienced in Asia? I have visited a few in other parts of the continent - Tokyo, Hong Kong, Taipei and in older days Singapore and Kuala Lumpur - which have been anything other than grimy, foreboding and sleazy (although is not sleaze part of many patrons' reason for visiting saunas?) In fact, most of these have been spotlessly clean. One small one in Singapore in the mid-2000s named Rairua even had a free coffee bar with snacks on the first floor.

Oliver2
April 22nd, 2021, 13:44
When I began my gay life in 1994, I visited a number of saunas in London; they were, as described above," grimy, foreboding and sleazy." A couple of years later, I stayed in Bangkok and the difference between them and Babylon was astounding. The cleanliness, range of facilities, the ambiance were all welcoming and encouraged a cheerful, guilt-free attitude to sex. Most of all, younger guys were sometimes interested even in me.

During the late 90s I also visited German, French, Dutch and Spanish saunas. Many had better facilities than London ones; none had cute, young guys for me.

To be fair, by the end of the decade new and better saunas had opened in London. Unlike Babylon, they were patronised by men of my age in the main....in whom I had no interest. Many have closed in the last decade; for the few remaining, the death-blow will likely be Covid.

arsenal
April 22nd, 2021, 16:55
Oliver wrote.
"To be fair, by the end of the decade new and better saunas had opened in London."

I used to go to Pacific 33. Lots of nooks and crannies and plenty of hot boy action. They also offered free tea, coffee, sandwiches and biscuits. Best afternoon tea in The Smoke. Then Chariots opened. Huge and gorgeous with a Jacuzzi and big swimming pool where heavy petting was positively encouraged. Lots of young Angel faced boys went. I was there the night Diana died but that's another story. Most of them have gone the way of lidos, independent cinemas and Concorde. How do we come to lose such beautiful things?

gerefan2
April 22nd, 2021, 23:48
Every Sauna I know has closed.

In the 1990s I started going to Amsterdam and frequented (horrible word!) both the Thermos Day and Night Saunas for about 15 years.

Firstly the Day Sauna closed and then the Night Sauna burnt down. That, and other closures, spelt the end of my Amsterdam trips.

Next I visited Charriots in London. At their peak I think they had 6 premises. All gone now.

Then Sansuk in Pattaya. When I dropped by a few weeks ago awnings on the upper floor were blowing in the wind in tatters and a sign on the door said closed. I think it’s been closed many months (perhaps a year now) and certainly shows no signs of reopening.

Finally Babylon. Seems to be permanently closed.

So for me....all gone.

I wonder if we will ever see gay saunas again after Covid?

goji
April 23rd, 2021, 04:40
Every Sauna I know has closed.

I think there were about 6 saunas open in London prior to the plague. Obviously none of them are permitted to open at present.
The Pleasuredrome Website indicates they will be reopening soon. The Shitbox, sorry Sweatbox had a major refit a couple of years ago, so I guess they will reopen.

There's a definite decline in this sector. Berlin is down from 3 saunas to 1 pre-covid, although at least it was a very nice sauna, unlike the grotty ones in London.

There's a definite decline in the sauna business everywhere I go. Even on the occasional visit to The Pleasuredrome, there are not even any fit lads to look at from a distance, never mind fit & available.

As with everything, I suspect it's mobile phone dating that's killing them off.
For the youngsters, why spend £20 in a sauna, when they can meet someone on Grindr for free ?
Then once hardly any youngsters are there, there's even less reason for the remainder to go.

I imaging phones are killing off the sauna trade in Bangkok too. Possibly combined with property redevelopment opportunities.

I wouldn't think the Sansuk in Pattaya has long to go. Farang don't go to Pattaya to chase after other Farang and the cute Asian youngsters are priced out of the place. It's difficult to hook fish without bait.

Marc K
April 23rd, 2021, 09:37
Most of them have gone the way of lidos, independent cinemas and Concorde. How do we come to lose such beautiful things?

Now that is an excellent question! There is something about gay society or gay culture which "moves on" and destroys the most recent fad in the process. I don't think we will see anything like Babylon ever again. I would never have guessed that we would allow Babylon to flit through our fingers into history.

I do wonder what will go on to define the next era of "gay culture". Gay marriage to emulate straight couples? Apps to supplant the more primal hunt we practiced in our generation? Metrosexuality? I suspect gays coming of age now will have very different lives than any of us have had.

StevieWonders
April 23rd, 2021, 09:51
There is something about gay society or gay culture which "moves on" and destroys the most recent fad in the process.What a load of sententious rubbish. If anything it’s a defining characteristic of Western society as a whole, especially since the Enlightenment.

I do wonder what will go on to define the next era of "gay culture". Gay marriage to emulate straight couples? Apps to supplant the more primal hunt we practiced in our generation? Metrosexuality? I suspect gays coming of age now will have very different lives than any of us have had.We’ll be the last generation of men prepared to travel thousands of kilometres to fuck prostitutes half our age?

Oliver2
April 23rd, 2021, 14:21
My generation spent our youth in a period when all homosexual acts were illegal. It is no wonder that some of us grew-up damaged by this. In my case it led to my pretending to be straight until middle-age, knowing that I wasn't.

And nor is it surprising that many of us, having been freed from our chains, chose Thailand as a place where we could, to some degree, make-up for all that we had been denied.

In fact, we were transformed from losers to winners, in that many of us were economically-favoured enough to be able to indulge ourselves and meet beautiful young men while our straight contemporaries had often given-up on sex with their increasingly plain wives.

I deeply regret what I missed in my youth but in terms of what I was getting pre-Covid,I cannot help feeling a little smug....I think that I, or we, deserved it.

StevieWonders
April 23rd, 2021, 14:42
My generation spent our youth in a period when all homosexual acts were illegal.It was hugely liberating. It taught me very early on that most people (parents, priests, teachers, the man in the street) are fools and the law is a social construct that we should view on an opt-in basis.

Armando
April 23rd, 2021, 23:23
I imaging phones are killing off the sauna trade in Bangkok too. Possibly combined with property redevelopment opportunities.
I don't agree with the former suggestion. In Bangkok there are still many saunas doing what I am told is a very good trade. What has changed is that saunas catering largely to western farang, better heeled Thais and located close to the centre of the city have disappeared. That may indeed be something to do with land prices and property development. From what I hear, Babylon is dying/has died primarily due to a family land dispute. In that location, the value of the land in that area must have risen hugely over the last few years. But the thriving saunas are mostly located nearer the outskirts of the city and are primarily Thai for Thai. Most westerners and tourists would not have a clue where they are and could not be bothered finding out.

In other parts of Asia, there is still a thriving sauna business, often quite close to city centres. Tokyo has a host of saunas and hattenba, several open to foreigners of which the 24 Kaikan saunas in Ueno and Shinjuku ni-chome are probably the best known and particularly active. The most elegant sauna in Taipei Aniki Wow has recently closed, but that is hardly surprising given that the entry price they charged was way too high. The relatively new Soi13In is often packed with several hundred patrons. Singapore also has several saunas in the central area. According to one Singapore gay chatroom these are again very busy although mostly at week-ends.

I cannot see mobile phone apps killing off gay saunas. There will still be a desire, especially amongst younger guys, to attend somewhere they can be anonymous, can see groups of fellow gays and have the opportunity of choosing who they might wish to hook up with. Too many of the apps have photographs and/or profiles that are out of date. Younger guys want more certainty and do not want to wait. Besides, quite a few can not take guys back to their homes. I see saunas in Asia continuing to play a role in gay entertainment, but as is now happening they will be more for a local crowd.

bjbjboy
April 25th, 2021, 10:03
From 1997 to 2001, living in Japan and China, I went to Thailand (only a 5-6 hour trip!) for long weekends and longer visits at other times of the year. I also remember the "first" Babylon, and distinctly remember my amazement at how lovely it was. Compact and yes, like a club. In terms of warmth and welcoming feel, the "second" Babylon, with it's mostly grey concrete finishes, wasn't "warm" but really, so impressive that it's weathered 20+ years of constant use. They were smart to make the design so simple and easy to clean.
I stayed at the Barracks above maybe 3 times, but never liked that so much. Was it still operational pre Pandemic?
I must say that the food in the restaurant, over the years, was always quite decent and reasonably priced considering the farang and upper middle class (?) Thai clientele. The gym was great, the pool was great, and even some of the events were fun like foam parties (maybe 15 years ago for me). Staff always was fine, and it was usually reasonably clean-- especially considering the hundreds of people having sex there EVERY DAY for 20+ years.

christianpfc
April 25th, 2021, 20:45
But the thriving saunas are mostly located nearer the outskirts of the city and are primarily Thai for Thai. Most westerners and tourists would not have a clue where they are and could not be bothered finding out.

...The most elegant sauna in Taipei Aniki Wow has recently closed, but that is hardly surprising given that the entry price they charged was way too high. The relatively new Soi13In is often packed with several hundred patrons.

I cannot see mobile phone apps killing off gay saunas. There will still be a desire, especially amongst younger guys, to attend somewhere they can be anonymous, can see groups of fellow gays and have the opportunity of choosing who they might wish to hook up with. Too many of the apps have photographs and/or profiles that are out of date. Younger guys want more certainty and do not want to wait. Besides, quite a few can not take guys back to their homes. I see saunas in Asia continuing to play a role in gay entertainment, but as is now happening they will be more for a local crowd.

There is a decline in numbers of gay saunas in the outskirts as well. For every new one that opens, two old close. I have been to all of them (pre-Covid, see my blog), but none was convincing. The number dropped from about 30 in 2015 to about 20 in 2019, and many will close permanently because of Covid.

I went to Aniki WOW once, and facilities and customer base were okay, but the entry price, 800 NTD which is about 20 EUR or 800 THB, is too much. Soi13in (entry price 600 NTD when I last went in 2019) is my favorite sauna (and the only one go/went regularly with a good chance to have fun) and at the weekend it was brimming. Standing room only in the steam room. I have never seen a sauna in Thailand even close to that busy.

One of my friends in Taipei mentioned that he thinks he is bisexual and I recommended he go to a gay sauna to see if he likes it without any commitment or effort (setting up an online dating profile, finding a place and time to meet). Another one lives with his family and from his place to my place would be too far, so we met in Soi13in and basically used it as a short time room (expensive at 2x600 NTD and very poorly equipped; should have gotten a short-time hotel).